The term "fundy" and the anti-Christian sentiment on this board.

[leyton]

NOTE: There's a bit of language below. No four-letter words, but I do reference a racial slur or two. Please understand that I am trying to make a comparison about the derogatory nature of the words. It is not my intention to deride anyone.

I've just come from a topic asking posters whether they would shop at a business that openly displays signs of Christianity. The first example that comes to mind is Chick-fil-A, where I eat often, and so I said I would.

Needless to say, countless other posters posted about how these are "fundy" businesses that are trying to shove "Xtianity" down our throats. I take offense at that, and rather than go back and reply to all umpty-three of those posts in that thread, I'd like to air my grievances here because I think it's a larger issue on this board.

Over the past few months, I've pretty much acquainted myself with the slang used on this board. I don't really care for "Repug" or "Repuke" or "*" or any of those, but I let it go because, after all, this is a liberal board and nobody's going to be offended. That said, I get pretty sick of seeing terms that diss my religion (Christianity), in particular "Fundy" and "Xtians."

"Fundy" gets to me. I'm not a fundamentalist Christian by any means; I am a mainstream Catholic, firm in my beliefs but tolerant of others. I have friends who are more conservative, and one in particular who is neither shy nor apologetic for his more conservative brand of Christianity. He takes the Bible literally, goes on mission trips, and is willing to talk about his faith to anyone, anytime. Now, there are also Jerry Falwell types and Franklin Graham types who write into my city's newspaper every day with letters to the editor about how Jews do this, Muslims do this, Kerry is un-Christian and Bush is the best thing since stick pretzels. Falwell and Graham are fundamentalists, my friend is not. DUers too often don't recognize the difference and attack anyone who is open about their faith as a "fundy." I've got news for you, we live in a society where discussion of ideas is open. Many of you try to convince your co-workers to vote for Kerry; you have every right to advocate your ideas about politics. Recognize the right of others to advocate their ideas about God, and don't attack them because they are vocal about it. You don't have to shop at Chick-fil-A if you don't want to; nobody's making you subscribe to any Christian newspapers. But, for goodness' sake, have some respect.

And on the note of respect, stop calling Christians "Xtians." Muslims are not "Islamics" or "Mohammedans" or "M-lims." African-Americans are not "Afros" (I'm trying to make a point here...) and Chinese-Americans are not "Chinks." Please, take the time to type out the word "Christian."

[Servo300]

1. I am dismayed

in general by the name-calling I see on this board.

[trogdor]

9. turnabout is fair play.

If you really want to see name-calling, go to Free Republic. I think I share the opinion of the vast majority of DU'ers, that we don't necessarily dislike fundamentalists for their belief in the literal truth of the Bible, but rather the tendency among them to foist this misguided belief "system" (IMO) on the rest of us.

[Servo300]

22. Well,

If you really want to see name-calling, go to Free Republic.

That really doesn't make it any better. Whether you are here or on Free Republic, it only weakens your argument -- whichever side you are coming from.

Incidently I just tried to go to freerepublic.com to see what it was all about, and all I got was a "Error 404 - not found" screen. Probably my crappy DSL connection...

Anyway, I've looked at the Yahoo message boards, and I see despicable name calling by both liberals and conservative. Makes them hard to take seriously.

[texastoast]

52. May I say finally?

Name-calling does make it hard to consider the opinion of the name-caller more seriously than one would that of a child on a playground, and it does weaken one's argument (and I've had a great time doing it once Newt and Rush started it--paybacks are hell and fun).

However, we are all entitled to our opinion of what is heartless, selfish, evil, unworkable, and primitive, and so to call it when we see it.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phoebe]

37. I agree. Discussion is the name of the game here, not invective.

Please try to be more respectful of each other's opinions. A respectful position, whether you agree with it or not, adds dimension to the discussion.

[indigobusiness]

199. EXACTLY---Name calling and vindictiveness

belong in the gutter with the narrow-minded and self-righteous.

Tolerance,humility and reason are characteristics of liberal thought...it is important to be mindful of these---even when taking the occasionally irresistible cheap shot.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. Um, Xtians is not a put down....

Usage Note: Xmas has been used for hundreds of years in religious writing, where the X represents a Greek chi, the first letter of, “Christ.” In this use it is parallel to other forms like Xtian, “Christian.” But people unaware of the Greek origin of this X often mistakenly interpret Xmas as an informal shortening pronounced (ksms).

[leyton]

4. I realize that it's not a put-down in and of itself.

I'm quite familiar with the abbreviation X-mas. That said, I think it's often used here in a derogatory way. I've never seen a positive post about "Xtians."

[Liberal Veteran]

11. So you would be offended if I said

"xtians suck" but not offended if I said "Christians suck"?

Sounds kinda silly to me, and I am damn sure not going out of my way to say "denizen of Free Republic" instead of just "freeper".

Let's not get hung up over shortcuts and be more concerned about meaning, shall we?

[progressivebydesign]

14. The term XMAS is actually has a deep religious meaning..

.. I do remember it has to do with some extremely religious people not wanting to say Christ's name, to keep it sacred.. they use X.. as in Xmas. Xtians may be used as some as a put down, but mostly it's shorthand.. like Xmas for most people.

[Az]

28. Um Xtian and Xian were actually originated by monks

It was an accepted abbriviation in their works and journals. It carries no derogatory connotation.

That aside I try to respect others opinions on this matter and now generally type out the entire word. But I will defend its use in general practice.

[Walt Starr]

35. If you don't like Xtian, don;t use it

I use Xian all the time. It's easier to type and is an accepted abreviation form by Biblical scholars.

[Delano]

88. Strange that your focus is on us, rather than your Christian brothers.

Xtians or Christians, as a group (and they generally DO act in a group) make life for many others a hell with their imposition of their religion on others. As much as I dislike Islam personally, I've yet to hear of American Muslims insisting that all American women wear Burqas, or Hindus calling for a ban of consumption of beef.

But simply because Christians are here in the greatest numbers, they feel no compunction at all about imposing THEIR religion's rules on everyone. "MY bible says abortion is bad (of course it doesn't, God is even pleased by human sacrifice at the beginning) so YOU must carry and deliver any unwanted babies. MY bible says homosexuality is an abomination (it doesn't, God just got mad over a specific spillage) so YOU gays can't get married. My religion believes in these ten commandments (which we constantly BREAK more often than less rreligious folks) so they must be enshrined in EVERYONE's courthouse.

The arrogance, presumtiousness, self-righteousness, fake piety and hypocrisy of most fundies and many Christians is the reason for all the negativity you see.

If Jews were as obnoxious about their faith as Christians are, you'd definitely see a lot more negativity toward them. But they keep their personal lives (and spirituality SHOULD be personal) to themsellves, in fact they make it quite difficult to convert.

I especially love how "men of God" like Pat Robertson can come on TV and blather and attack the left for whatever phony evil, while Robertson himself owns diamond mines in Africa that are worked by tortured slave labor. Why is it that ALL the TV preachers are either evil or insane?

[Scairp]

175. Well said Delano

Might I say to Leyton, that it hasn't been Jews or Muslims going around the world for literally centuries seeking to convert through missions. The Catholic church has invaded most, if not all, Asian and African countries throughout it's history forcing conversion. If we have a certain amount of contempt for certain forms of Christianity and certain high-profile Christians, there are reasons for it and you should be coming to terms with this fact rather than reprimanding us for some perceived prejudices that you feel are coming from Democrats and/or liberals, whether they be on this forum or out in the world.

[arwalden]

166. So The Problem Appears To Be NOT With The Words "Fundy" & "Xian"...

themselves... and upon closer inspection it appears that what you're REALLY having difficulty with is accepting the fact that someone speaks in an unflattering way against Xianity at all, yes?

Oh good grief! Of all the more serious things that there are to be offended at, you choose this?

Doubtless if the messages were about "Fundamentalist" "Christians" (spelled correctly and capitalized properly) and those messages happened to be critical or unflattering, there would still be those who could still find SOMETHING else to complain about.

Ready for a shocker? I don't capitalize the word god (unless it's the first word in a sentence). I actually put the "o" in god (instead of "g-d"). I don't capitalize "he" and "him" whenever I speak of Jesus in the third person. (You know... "Jesus and His followers...")

I'm certain that THAT rakes the nerves of some fundies and hypersensitive Xians, too. I'm sure they'll live, though.

-- Allen

PS: "Xians" is a valid word in the DU spellchecker. Hmmm.

[freeforall]

227. LOL, aggravates editors too

"I don't capitalize the word god (unless it's the first word in a sentence). I actually put the "o" in god (instead of "g-d"). I don't capitalize "he" and "him" whenever I speak of Jesus in the third person. (You know... "Jesus and His followers...")"

[tom_paine]

7. Xtians is used by many Christians to refernce themselves

If you don't believe me, click this link

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Xtians

(I don't have time to pick the Christian hits from the non-Christain, they seem about equally divided at first glance)

I can tell you I personally have seen legitimate Christian websites use the term to describe themselves.

[troublemaker]

149. Absolutely true

And, even more importantly, a campaign against abbrvtns on an internet message board is asking too much.

[KissMyAsscroft]

3. You have to understand what we are referencing with those terms..

They call themselves fundamentalists...that's what those people are...and they are INSANE. I do not apologize for calling them what they are.

And Repuke is childish, but I think everyone on this board has seen what playing fair gets us, and the name calling is an extension of the frustration at the gutter politics from the other side.

[leftyandproud]

You also need to understand..

that this is a left wing board, and many left wingers are atheists or agnostics. I recall a poll being posted here a few months ago. It was a "Do you believe in God?" poll. We had something like 200 people vote in the poll and it was 80% "I'm an atheist" 10% "I'm an agnostic. I don't believe in organized religion." 5% "I don't know" and 5% "Yes, I am a believing Christian."

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

31. but being an atheist...

.. doesn't give one a free card to bash others they disagree with, right? Courteous speech, debate, sharing should be at a higher level than just name-calling.

But then of course, when others feel they have the Free Card to call OTHERS names 'because of some Godsense' in their background and then turn around and cry when they're called names... well, that is just as childish, IMHO.

[Az]

62. Walk into a church sometime

Listen to who the preist is calling the bad guys. There is a weekly tirade railed against atheists, agnostics, and humanists in America. Now while it may not be right for those assailed by this continual torrent of insults it is perhaps understandable when not all can withhold their anger towards representitives of these sources of ridicule.

PS Of course not all churches site atheists and nonbelievers as evil. But not all atheists and nonbelievers are disparaging of believers either. Perhaps some guidance should be pointed towards these constant sources of hate directed towards atheists.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

72. I totally agree ...

.. and being a frequent poster on the Yahoo Bulletin boards you see the drivvle of 'mainstream' America who has been fed this PROPOGANDA.

I was just trying to say on DU itself, we should at least strive for the ideals we'd LIKE to see in others.

NOBODY is perfect, and a few bad-apples shouldn't be used to judge the barrel... but striving is the buzzword there.

Perfection is a journey, not a destination.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. I can honestly say that I have never heard atheists being

condemned in any ELCA Lutheran or Episcopal church that I have attended. I have heard pastors exhort parishioners to "share their faith," but not to condemn non-believers.

You've been visiting the wrong churches.

[Az]

89. No

I am familiar with the more open minded sects. But here is the problem. They allow the vocal close minded sects to speak for them. They may not give their permission directly but by letting them shout all other positions down without refutation they give tacit approval.

What I truly wish to see is liberal or moderate Christians standing side by side with atheists and not condemning each other. Working to build a better society through shared insites and understanding.

[leftyandproud]

64. well, I'm afraid to be honest considering the poster is a DU'er..

but I think organized religion will be the end of the world..

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

73. So does Revelations!

You must be onto something!

[Az]

74. Lets just put it this way

While I respect the right of anyone to believe what they may (I may hope for something else) I get truly worried when I start to think that the person most able to destroy the entire world may believe that the end of the world is a good thing.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

78. Things that make you go Hmmmmm! <n/t>

post 98??? c'mon 100..................

[trof]

116. Could I run for office as an atheist?

Almost anywhere in this contry?
OK, I could run, but would I have any kind of chance of getting elected?
Nope.
I do my best to tolerate deists and their views.
I'd sure appreciate a little quid pro quo.

[Rainbowreflect]

5. I use to be bothered by Xtians or Xmas,

but then I realized the an X was the way early Christians identified themselves. Now I just look at it that way.
I am a Christan, but I realize that many horrible thing have been done & continue to be done in the name of Christianity. I don't really blame people for their anger.
I think our best response is to do our best to live and act in a way that is a GOOD example of being Christian.

[cheezus]

6. I'll go 50/50 with you

I had never thought of "xtain" as a slur, but rather an abbrev. Maybe because I never use it. Is there an appropriate shorthand way of writing christian? So anyway, I'll avoid xtain, but I'm still going to use "xmas" to refer to christmas, as for me it a secular holiday based around goodwill towards man, peace, hope for spring to finally come, decorated trees, food, and yes, presents.

But I will continue to use the word fundie (I like that spelling better than fundy). There are fundamentalist evangelicals who do things I consider to be a great danger to our democracy. I'm sorry that REAL christians (i.e. seem to follow the actual teachings of christ) get thrown in there some times, but sometimes a normal christian will make a fundie comment.

Let's put it this way. When my grandmother-in-law calls the black jellybeans "nigger babies", she's being a little racist. That doesn't mean she IS a racist.

[CastorTroy]

161. Fundie = Flaming Idiot

I use the term "fundie" as a slur without apology.

Anybody who finds their whole meaning for being in a 2000 year old fable/political tract is flaming moron . . . I would let them be as I would any developmentaly stunted individual but they just happen to be ruining the country that I love.

[AngryAmish]

188. Jesse Jackson = Flaming idiot?

Glad to see such harmony amongst us progressives.

[progressivebydesign]

8. Hmmm....

If you're not a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian, which Catholics are clearly NOT.. in fact, those people you're defending, believe YOU will go to hell for being Catholic, then I don't understand why your panties are in a bunch. Why must people post threads like the Christian Biz one, just to start trouble, then complain about people's opinions. This is an open forum... I can call Xtians just that.. just as Xmas is actually more sacred than the term Christmas.. because X stands for Christ, but in a more sacred way.

I have no problem with people's religions.. I could care less. I DO dislike the fundamentalists and evangelical "christians" because they interpret something in the bible that means they have to annoy us for the rest of our lives. If people aren't trying to shove their beliefs down my throat, what do I care?

FUNDY is a TYPE of Christian... it is not an all-purpose word to describe anyone who believes in Christ. Why must we have these inane threads all the time?

[alcuno]

29. Exactly. I am a Catholic who is sick and tired of the fundies being

given such prominence for their Christianity. Why are Dr. James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Bob Jones, and Pat Robertson always on my TV giving their views on political issues? Where are the mainstream Catholics or Lutherans?

The fundies use Christianity like a hammer and I don't like it one bit. Let them stop their anti-Catholic, anti-pope rhetoric and their smug "my way or the highway" approach. That's why people, like me, don't like them.

[Doctor Pedantic]

10. Nicely Said

I'm an Evangelical Christian myself, and have posted a few comments myself on the anti-religious sentiment that unfortunately arises with some regularity here.

We are supposed to be the party of tolerance, and that includes tolerance for religious beliefs. If someone has a sincerely held belief that I don't happen to believe in, that doesn't mean I get to ridicule it -- whether it's reincarnation, or transsubstantiation, or creationism. When people try to push their particular religious beliefs on society and try to use, say, Jesus as a political weapon, that's fair game. But not all Christians -- not even all "Fundies" -- can, or should, be painted with the same broad brush.

BTW, "Xmas," "Xian," etc. doesn't bother me that much because the Greek letter Chi ("X") is the first letter of the word Christ and was used from the earliest days of Christianity as a shorthand, but still respectful, reference to Jesus.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

12. Good thing you're just a Christian and not...

... gay or black or Jewish.

You'd not make it a day in the 'real world' where you're faced with name calling and bad jokes and demeaning speech thrown your way.

But nice of you to stick up for the 'rights of Christians' to say what they please in regards to their beliefs, but then never stand up against your fellow Christians who spout the hate & filth you despise from others.

YOU may not be a fundamentalist, but you do seem to have the same ideals that YOU are free to come and go and say whatever you want in the manner you wish to say it or ALLOW brethren to do it and remain silent... but poor poor you, at the first negative 'attacks' toward you (and probably not personally toward YOU but more the rhetorical YOU), you start DEMANDING that people 'play fair'.

And you WONDER why people jump to unfair conclusions????????

[Walt Starr]

40. Heh, I wonder how folks would take to being beaten

to within an inch of their lives just because they were wearing a Pentagram openly.

Not to mention the death threats that were made against me by the good Christian people of a town I lived in because I was openly Pagan, and the good Christian Sheriff refused to even investigate either incident.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

51. Exactly, not all, but many demand tolerance...

.. of their own intolerance?

[Cheswick2.0]

48. wow, is your post full of ASSUMPTIONS

Take a course in logic. You have no idea what they poster stands for, defends or tolerates silently from other Christians.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

68. and you take a course in Critical Thinking

I of course KNOW I don't KNOW the poster.. but you can see how this thread has taken off?

What? you expect me to sit quietly and ask questions to get to know the person better? Ask that person their stance and how they have approached different threads and ideals?

Sheesh, YES I made ASSUMPTIONS to make a point and to get some feedback FROM THEM... but congratulations on having a firm grasp on the obvious!

[QC]

133. "you expect me to sit quietly and ask questions..."

to get to know the person better? Ask that person their stance and how they have approached different threads and ideals?"

Well, that's how a discussion is supposed to work, but DU pretty much ceased to be a place for discussions long ago. Now we're mostly into invective, attacking our own candidates, calling people names (because they did it first), etc.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

202. Hi QC

Again, the post is NOT my usual style.

I KNEW from the beginning this topic was going to be hot... so I just jumped in......

Conversations may start badly, but that's no reason for them to end badly.

See my post to Leyton... my regrets.. and by all means, feel free to chide me if I do it in the future (but c'mon, the 'class in logic' was unbecoming on your side too, right? <wink>)

TGIF!!!!!!!

[markomalley]

130. Harassment of Christians of whatever denomination is popular sport

---

... gay or black or Jewish.

You'd not make it a day in the 'real world' where you're faced with name calling and bad jokes and demeaning speech thrown your way.

---

Pardon me, but I hear that stuff all the time. In fact, it is considered quite correct to harass people who harbor those beliefs.

---

but then never stand up against your fellow Christians who spout the hate & filth you despise from others.

---

Actually, I have and I do. But, not being a 1000+ person yet, you wouldn't see that.

[leyton]

134. You make a lot of assumptions about me.

I'm not saying Christians have it worse on DU than blacks or gays or Jews do in the real world. I am aware that huge atrocities have been aimed at those groups and others, while not so many have been aimed at Christians. I do live in the real world.

However, that doesn't mean I can't get frustrated when people deride Christians here on DU. I never stand up to my fellow Christians who spout hate and filth? Where do you get that idea? You know nothing about me. For the record, the day my priest gives a sermon on who I should vote for (a day which may come soon, knowing the clergy at my church), I'll give him a piece of my mind.

Finally, it's not a demand that people play fair. It's a request, and I know it's a lot to ask... I've been reading anti-Christian stuff on this board for several months (see my post count?), this is the first time I've started a topic on it. Geez.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

201. Hi Leyton

Guilty as charged, assumptions galore in the post.

Again, I'll repeat, it was only to make conversation... and if any Christians who were reading it WHO do sit silently by may have taken a different slant on it than you.

Kudos if you truly speak out against any and all aggressive speech.

As you see by my number of posts, I haven't been around long and I'll be looking forward to catching some of your standing up for the persecuted on all sides of the fence.

BTW, I'll say I regret the assumptions, but I learned long ago on bulletin boards, if you say everything 'nicely' you'll never get much response. A little heat brings out the posters.. and hey, it got me over the magic number of 100 yesterday!

So again, my regrets at the use of Assumptions and looking forward to seeing your posts around DU in the future.

[noiretextatique]

205. well, i WILL say it: Christians do not face "discrimination" in america

they are not "oppressed" or discriminated against in any real sense...in america. and certainly NOT in the way other groups are discriminated against
what *some* christians don't seem to like is the lack of starry-eyed reverence of *some* on DU whenever the work "christianity" is mentioned...that is morphed into "discrimination."
believers still expect non-believers to have an special regard for their beliefs...because they beleive their beliefs are sacred.

[Castilleja]

220. I think that's it, in a nutshell, Noiretblue

On a large scale in the whole country.

[quinnox]

13. I agree with the first post about the name-calling

I always say repubs or republicans, I think the other terms are silly but whatever. And I also agree about the other juvenile terms that are used at DU, but I guess it is a message board and it isn't a big deal.

[Cooley Hurd]

15. I have no problem w/ Fundamentalist Christians...

...as long as you keep it to yourself, and respect my atheism.

As long as you do that, we're cool... :thumbsup:

[Misunderestimator]

30. Bravo... my sentiments exactly. nt

[Cheswick2.0]

54. the poster said he was not fundamentalist

why are you saying he is?

[Cooley Hurd]

147. Show me where I called the orig poster a Fundamentalist...

I said that I don't have a problem with Fundamentalist Christians as long as they respect my atheism and keep their religious beliefs rto themselves.

I made no comment or inferrence of the original posters' beliefs. You might want to re-read my post, Cheswick, a bit closer...

[markomalley]

132. Brav(o)(a).

People should be able to rationally discuss their beliefs without resorting to name-calling and hyperbole. Mutual respect is what we should be about (unless you are a 'pub -- then all bets are off).

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

57. LOL

how liberal of you. :hi:

[Mountainman]

17. Would you answer some questions for me please?

Why do some Christians feel compelled to put fish on their cars and let me know that they are a Christian. Why do they want Creationism forced on schools as science? Why to the keep saying that the founding fathers wanted a Christian nation? Why do the fundamental religions hate so many other people?

That to me is being elitist and I don't like it, but what can I do?

I feel that it is important to have tolerance for others religion but I never hear anyone else complain about being prejudiced against yet be so damned elitist.

Stop shoving your religion in my face and maybe I will feel a bit more tolerant of you. It goes both ways.

I was raised Catholic and am thinking about going to a Unitarian Church this weekend so don't think don't know something about the idea.

[sangh0]

34. Here are some answers

Why do some Christians feel compelled to put fish on their cars and let me know that they are a Christian

For the same reason that some put Kerry/Dean/GratefulDead stickers on their cars.

Why do they want Creationism forced on schools as science?

They don't. Only a small minority do.

Why to the keep saying that the founding fathers wanted a Christian nation?

They don't. Only a small minority do.

Why do the fundamental religions hate so many other people?

They don't. Only a small minority do.

That to me is being elitist and I don't like it, but what can I do?

You could stop stereotyping the majority based on the actions of a small minority. That to me is being elitist. Elites have a habit of using a few examples to slander the majority, in order to justify their priviliges.

I feel that it is important to have tolerance for others religion but I never hear anyone else complain about being prejudiced against yet be so damned elitist.

Then you should read some more on DU. There are plenty of people here who have complained about being discriminated against while being elitist. Just today, one poster claimed that he was a member of a group (ie leftists) that the Dems were discriminating against, and that claim was based on the fact that Kerry had not personally answered the posters questions.

Stop shoving your religion in my face and maybe I will feel a bit more tolerant of you. It goes both ways.

Most religious people don't shove their religion in your face. There are lots of Christians on DU, but since they don't shove their religion in anybody's face, you haven't even noticed.

[Mountainman]

59. Typical responses but not answers

Why do the small minority do it?

That small minority has a whole lot of power in this country. So much so that many of us fear for our freedoms being lost.

The only religion that I know of that doesn't feel their God wants them to go out and convert the world is the Jewish religion.

Christianity teaches that it is the one true religion and that they should bring that truth to the rest of the world. That Christ will come back at the end of the world when everyone will be of one faith, Christianity. That is the elitism I'm talking about. It is institutional. I was raised that way and gladly started thinking for myself.

[sangh0]

82. more responses

Why do the small minority do it?

Because they are intolerant and fearful

That small minority has a whole lot of power in this country.

No they don't. They are loud, but they are not powerful.

The only religion that I know of that doesn't feel their God wants them to go out and convert the world is the Jewish religion.

Actually, when I went to college, there was a Jewish group that was out trying to convert the world. Also, there are other groups that not as outspoken as the fundies. Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

Christianity teaches that it is the one true religion and that they should bring that truth to the rest of the world.

Not true. A small minority of Christians feel that Chritianity is the one true religion. Most do not.

That Christ will come back at the end of the world when everyone will be of one faith, Christianity

Most Christians believe that those are metaphors, and not literally true

That is the elitism I'm talking about

There are many forms of elitism, and no one is immune to it. However, I am gald to hear that you are thinking for yourself.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tigereye]

125. seem like good answers to me, SanghO

it is sad that a vocal and intolerant minority are able to overshadow the positive aspects of Christianity. Many aspects of Christianity are positive and some concepts have been misused in the name of power-grabs and intolerance. But I agree that many Christians ( the quiet ones?) are tolerant and represent the best, kind aspects of the religon. BTW I was raised Catholic and although I no longer agree with some of the churches' policies, there are still many positive things I was taught that have benefitted me throughout my life.

[CastorTroy]

162. You're f***ing joking about the "not powerful" part, right?

[sangh0]

211. No, I am not

but I greatly appreciated the abundance of reason and logic in your post.

[Selwynn]

60. And my response to you:

They don't. Only a small minority do.

Prove it. I say its a majority. You say its a minority. Why is your word better than mine?


They don't. Only a small minority do.

Prove it. I say its a majority. You say its a minority. Why is your word better than mine?


They don't. Only a small minority do.

Prove it. I say its a majority. You say its a minority. Why is your word better than mine?

You could stop stereotyping the majority based on the actions of a small minority. That to me is being elitist. Elites have a habit of using a few examples to slander the majority, in order to justify their privileges.

Prove it. I say its a majority. You say its a minority. Why is your word better than mine? What privileges are you referring to?

Most religious people don't shove their religion in your face.

Says you. Prove it. "MOST" religious people don't shove their religion in your face? Oh yeah? Well can you support that with any kind of evidence? If I was to say most Christians do shove their religion in your face, would you have any more evidence than me to say that they don't?

I didn't think so.

Look, you might be right, and I consider myself to be a believer and I have defended religion on these boards many time. But I don't like your attitude here, nor your tone, and your logic is murky at best. Just because you say "most don't, only a small minority do" doesn't make it true.


There are lots of Christians on DU, but since they don't shove their religion in anybodies face, you haven't even noticed.

There are plenty who do, too.

[sangh0]

95. Selwynn

Check with the Pew Charitable Trusts. They have run polls concerning religion. Only a small proportion of Christians identify as fundamentalists (IIRC, the percentage was about 12%) and an even smaller number consider the Bible to be the literal truth.

There are plenty who do, too.

There are a few, but a very few.

[Selwynn]

96. I hope you are right, but I don't believe you.

[sangh0]

101. I guess I can't blame you

After all, I dont have any links to the polls I've read. However, if you are truly interested in knowing the numbers, I'm sure you're smart enough to find them on the web.

You might want to check out www.sojo.net They might have some simlar polls in their website.

[Selwynn]

115. I did check out sojo, and emaled a couple things to a friend :)

Thanks for that site

[theboss]

105. Go to a "black" church sometime

What amazes me on this board is the blind spot the so-called Democrats have to the religious beliefs of or largest, most devoted constituency - black people who are overwhelming Christian.

From Pew:

The survey underscores an important and often overlooked fact of American politics: African-Americans and white evangelical Christians are remarkably similar in their views about the role of religion in politics, yet they come to sharply different partisan conclusions. Both groups think the country would be better off if religion were more influential, both defend the role of religious leaders as political spokesmen, and both share similar views on important social issues, such as assisted suicide and gay marriage. Yet their attitudes toward President Bush and partisan politics are almost diametrically opposed. White evangelicals lean strongly toward Bush and the Republicans, and African-Americans lean strongly against both the president and his party. These two groups ­ both of them highly engaged and religious ­ stand as important countervailing forces in American public life.

http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=26

[HFishbine]

119. "an even smaller number consider the Bible to be the literal truth."

Really? Here's a poll with a source.

"Which of these statements comes closest to describing your feelings about the Bible? The Bible is the actual Word of God. The Bible is the Word of God but not everything in it should be taken literally. OR, The Bible is a book written by men and is not the Word of God."

Actual Word of God: 42%
Not to be taken literally: 37%
Written by men: 14%

http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm

[sangh0]

214. "Word of God" does NOT mean "interpret Bible literally"

I believe that the Bible is the "Word of God", but I don't believe it should be interpreted literally, and not even a Christian. Also, the Pope agrees with me that the Bible is the "Word of God", but should NOT be interpreted literally

[Dark]

230. But then you would have voted with the 37%, right?

The 42% do believe it is the literal (that's what they mean by actual) word of God. If they didn't, then they would have chosen the second choice and gone with the thirty seven percent.

[HFishbine]

102. "Why do some Christians..."

See this post:

"You can't possibly not know the meaning of the word 'some', could you?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x530029#530617

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HFishbine]

123. As in

"some" ass smoke?

[leyton]

136. Well, I started typing answers.

But those were the ones I was going to give. :)

The minority does things because it is willing to take further steps to spread Christianity than the mainstream. I don't agree with it, but that's why it occurs.

[bhunt70]

167. excellent post.

[GOPBasher]

183. I basically agree with you, but I'd like to address some of those

statements.

I agree with a lot of what you say. For example, what's wrong with putting Jesus fish on one's car? They're just expressing their faith, just like I do when I have a bumper sticker that says, "The road to hell is paved with Republicans."

However, when you say, to answer some of those questions, "They don't. Only a small minority do," I'm not sure I totally agree. I've seen polls that say upwards of 35% of the people in this country believe, for example, that the earth was created in six days about 6000 years ago. Now, I hope that stat is wrong, but if it's true, then I don't think it's far fetched to think that pretty soon we'll be teaching creationism in school as science. 35% is a minority, but a large and powerful one.

[durutti]

185. A small minority? Nope.

75 percent of the U.S. population is Christian. Around a third of the U.S. population is fundamentalist. Meaning about 40 percent of American Christians are fundamentalists.

[doni_georgia]

42. Well, I have a ichthos fish on my car

with the Greek letters. I also have numerous liberal bumper stickers. It's part of who I am. I am a liberal Christian. My bumper stickers and other things on my car are an expression of ME. I don't put anything on my car to rub anyone's face in anything, nor to cram anything down anyone's throat. I believe in freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression. I was under the impression that these three freedoms were guaranteed by the Constitution. I have no desire to convert anyone to my way of believing. I also do not feel like I should have to apologize to anyone for my beliefs. Just because I believe in following the teachings of Jesus does not make me a reactionary fundamentalist any more than a normal Muslim should be branded an Islamic extremist. I don't understand why many people who have no difficulty separating Islamic extremists from every day Muslims, or Hindu extremists from average Hindus, have such a propensity for painting all Christians with a broad stroke of a brush. I have nothing in common with the likes of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. They would tell you I am a heretic. I would say that we do not even come close to believing in the same Jesus.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

46. Damn straight! You tell it...

Here's my theory on xtians who actively show their religious faith in public:

Deep, deep, deep down inside they are really unsure about whether there's a god or not, but this upsets their little minds and would mean that there's not "a better place" than their pitiful Earthy existence after they die. Alternatively, they are very upset about some desires or human feelings they may be having, but these feelings are antithetical to their religion (e.g., homosexual thoughts, avarice, greed, etc.).

So, they employ a sort of "reaction formation" where they demonize all who do not profess to believe in their religion. The "fish on the car" is meant to say, "I'm a xtian, so I'm good...I'm not like you. I'm not a sinner."

JB

[Doctor Pedantic]

50. Who's Shoving What?

People have to realize that Jesus calls His believers to be "light" and "salt" in the world, and to teach others about Him. This is very tricky because while we can't just keep our beliefs to ourselves, we also can't bang our Bibles and force others to believe. To me, the best form of "witnessing" is to live the life to which Christ calls us -- which means taking care of the sick and the poor, having a compassionate spirit, not being greedy or violent, and in general just acting in very non-Republican ways.

But I don't see a huge difference between saying "I don't care if you're a Christian so long as you don't shove it in my face" and saying "I don't care if you're gay so long as you don't flaunt it. I don't condone legislating religious beliefs or aggressively proselytizing (whether religiously or politically) people who just have no interest, but in our "free speech" society people should have every right to talk about their religious beliefs.

[Mountainman]

86. I don't give a damn if gays flaunt it, They are not telling me I need to

be gay to go to heaven.

[Delano]

93. And they're not trying to put gay-sex statues

into ALabama courthouses. They do no more on the streets than straight couples do, it's just more noticeable because they're gay.

[AngryAmish]

191. If they tell you you'll go to hell who cares?

You'll be dead.

[Bandit]

127. For a thread filled with flames your post is a balm

:thumbsup:

[Sapphocrat]

173. Big difference, buddy...

But I don't see a huge difference between saying "I don't care if you're a Christian so long as you don't shove it in my face" and saying "I don't care if you're gay so long as you don't flaunt it.

With all due respect, that is one of the biggest cop-outs I've ever seen.

Just so there's no misunderstanding of anything resembling a personal attack, let it be understood that below, I use the word "you" in the collective sense, addressing the variety of radical, fundamentalist, intolerant, gay-hating, gay-baiting, in-name-only Christians who make my life a living hell.

That said:

You can flaunt your religion all you want -- I frankly don't give a damn about fish stickers, Jesus T-shirts, or revival meetings in a tent in the center of town -- but keep the whole religion trip OUT of my bedroom, and out of my civil relationship with the state, and stop bothering me with dire warnings about a hell I don't believe in. It's your hell -- you fear it.

In the meantime, I will flaunt my homosexuality all I want, and you don't have to like it one little bit. But you won't see me or any other queer insisting that YOU live as a queer, or insisting that OUR "lifestyle" be the basis for the governing law of the land, or hammering YOU over the head with the notion that if YOU refuse to smear mud and leaves all over your naked body and participate in a tryst with the Radical Faeries under a full moon, YOU will be denied YOUR basic civil rights.

We don't come to YOUR door and assault YOU with tracts. We don't preach "tolerance" when it's convenient, and then turn around and kick YOU out of our churches, our businesses, our neighborhoods. We don't demand an accounting of your bedroom habits before judging your suitability as a citizen deserving of the same rights and privileges YOU enjoy by the mere accident of your birth. We don't throw YOU out of OUR restaurants because you had the audacity to hold your wife's hand in public. We don't go into a "straight panic" and murder YOUR kind because one of YOU made a pass at one of us in one of YOUR bars. And, contrary to what appears to be popular belief in some circles, we don't recruit YOUR children, and turn them against YOU.

I'll flaunt my homosexuality loudly and proudly -- but I don't expect YOU to be what you are NOT.

Go ahead, flaunt your Christianity, and I'll happily ignore it -- as long as you keep it OUT of my bedroom, OUT of my life, OUT of the government, and OUT of the courts.

Incidentally, I'm no atheist, but at times I wish I were, as I would be in the company of a group of people I genuinely admire for their overall ability to survive in a society that has demonized them at least as much as it's demonized lesbians and gay men -- and yet they live their lives in a more "Christian" fashion than half the self-proclaimed Christians I have ever known.

[Doctor Pedantic]

203. You're missing my point

My point was it's not exactly tolerant to say "It's okay for you to be so long as you keep it to yourself."

There's a lot of hypocrisy on these boards, where it appears to be okay to be anything but an Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christian.

And BTW, you do expect Christians to be something they're not -- i.e., called to express their faith to others. You're telling people who believe that they're required to "make disciples of all nations" that they have to reject that part of the Christian belief system if they want to be tolerated by you. There's not a philosophical or logical difference between that and a religious conservative saying you have to keep your homosexuality to yourself.

Obviously, it plays out differently in real life. In society as a whole, there's a lot more gay-bashing, literally and otherwise, than Christian-bashing.

And just so I'm clear, I don't belong in the "You" of your post. I think gays and lesbians, just like everyone else, should be welcome in churches (and welcome not to go if they don't want to). I also think that Christians have the right to express their beliefs as to the path of salvation. I'm no Mel Gibson fan, but he sure gets a lot more attacks from the left for pushing his brand of traditional Catholicism than Madonna gets for pushing her brand of trendy Judaism.

[Sapphocrat]

223. Oh, my, so much to think about...

My point was it's not exactly tolerant to say "It's okay for you to be so long as you keep it to yourself."

Then I haven't missed your point. I repeated, more than once, that you (collectively or individually) can flaunt your Christianity all you like -- but I don't have to pay any attention to it, if that's my choice.

I never said "keep it to yourself" -- as in, "keep it out of sight." And there is the difference: Nobody expects you to keep your faith in the closet -- but a lot of people expect me to keep my sexuality in the closet. Nobody (myself included) -- even that I have seen on DU -- has ever said, "You need to stop telling everyone you're a Christian." What people (like me) want is for Christians (many Christians -- not meaning all, and not meaning you) to stop evangelizing. Proselytizing. Trying to convince the rest of us that we're all doomed to a fiery eternity if we don't think like you do.

There's a lot of hypocrisy on these boards, where it appears to be okay to be anything but an Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christian.

I really disagree with you there. I won't fight you too hard on the point, because obviously, you're going to be much more attuned to perceived attacks on Christians and Christianity than I am. That's your hot button -- mine is perceived attacks on LGBT people.

But I do think you are confusing attacks on the less-than-desirable aspects of modern American fundamentalist Christianity (i.e., the proselytizing, the mix of church and state) with you, personally, and your choice to be a Christian.

Ask the atheists: Is it "okay" to be an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian? Of course it's okay -- nobody's trying to stop you from following whatever faith you want. Where the tolerance ends is when it appears that one of your fellow believers is 1) playing the self-pity game, 2) trying to convert everybody in sight, and/or 3) refusing to respect the choices of non-believers as much as Christians demand respect for their own choices.

I know, there's a thin line. That's why I'm not going to argue this point with you in such great detail as I would like. I do understand that that is your perception -- and as one who has had my head kicked in repeatedly around here for being "hypersensitive" about perceived attacks on LGBT people, I'll cut you a LOT of slack in this area, because I've been where you are.

And BTW, you do expect Christians to be something they're not -- i.e., called to express their faith to others. You're telling people who believe that they're required to "make disciples of all nations" that they have to reject that part of the Christian belief system if they want to be tolerated by you. There's not a philosophical or logical difference between that and a religious conservative saying you have to keep your homosexuality to yourself.

Let me ask you something: Do you think there is a single person (assuming reasonable access to the outside world) in this country who doesn't understand the basic tenets of Christianity?

What I mean is this: I would bet my last dollar that every single person on DU, for instance, has been exposed to what you feel you have been called to profess: In short, that Jesus is the son of God, who came to earth, died to ransom us from our sins, and rose again so that we may have eternal life... that God is one-in-three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... that one must be baptised (literally, figuratively, or both, depending on your brand of Christianity) in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven... and, of course, that one accept Jesus Christ as his or her personal savior.

In other words, we get it. (I more than get it -- I was a Catholic once too.) "Witnessing" would be understandable and even reasonable were you to witness to a fellow human being to whom the concept of Christianity is completely foreign. The vast majority of non-believers you will meet in your life, however, already know exactly what it is you want them to believe.

Some will take you up on your offer. Some won't. Where most of us start complaining long and loud is when you (collectively or individually, as you like) simply will not take "NO!" for an answer.

Perhaps you feel that if you have failed to "save" someone, you simply haven't done right by God -- that you must re-double your efforts to keep "reaching" the un-saved.

But, Doc, you are a Christian -- you believe in free will. And you are an intelligent human being -- you know you will never sway everyone to your thinking, no matter what you say or do.

The danger of witnessing is when you refuse to take no for an answer, and persist in your conversion efforts; far too many Christians go well beyond merely being obnoxious about it, but ultimately turn off non-believers permanently.

The funny thing is: I don't have a problem with Christianity. I don't rail against it at all -- it's as plausible as any other belief, and I've seen with my own eyes the good it can do in the lives of many people (I am thinking right now of my mother's pure, unbridled joy in her lifelong Catholicism). Religion can be a wonderful thing indeed -- but fanatical religiosity does more harm than any good.

Finally, you are operating on the belief that you are "called" to convert non-believers. I respect your belief -- but, Doc, it is your belief. Right there, you have overstepped your bounds; you expect others to give you a free pass to continue evangelizing -- no matter how many times they say "NO!" -- simply because you believe you are called to save them.

Look... In another thread, I asked DUers at large to write letters to my hometown's city council about a decision they made. One person who did came back and posted the response she got from the city council. It was your basic thanks-for-writing-but-bugger-off reply. She wanted to know how she should answer it. My response to her (offline) was: Don't answer it. You made your point in your first letter, and that's what's important. You know there is no way a million letters like yours are going to change the decision the council made -- but it was important to let them know that a lot of people were not happy with what they did.

That's what I would say to Christians who feel they have to keep hammering the point into non-believers' heads again and again: You've made your point, repeatedly, and you can talk yourself blue in the face, and you just won't win. Now, go do your witnessing somewhere else, where you might have an impact. I won't stop you. The atheists won't stop you. We might not support you, but we won't try to stop you.

It's your right. But it is no longer your right when one of us tells you to stop.

I do not -- in your words -- "expect Christians to be something they're not." That's the furthest thing from the truth. But I won't give you a free pass to get in my face and keep insisting I listen after the second, fifth, or 500th time I've told you I'm not buying what you have to sell. Keep trying, and you run the risk of turning your target into the most hostile anti-Christian.

Obviously, it plays out differently in real life. In society as a whole, there's a lot more gay-bashing, literally and otherwise, than Christian-bashing.

Whew! I'm glad you see that. LOL

And just so I'm clear, I don't belong in the "You" of your post. I think gays and lesbians, just like everyone else, should be welcome in churches (and welcome not to go if they don't want to).

And to be clear, I didn't think you belonged in the "you" of my post either. I think you understand exactly the point I was making about the radical element who won't leave the rest of us be.

I also think that Christians have the right to express their beliefs as to the path of salvation.

So do I -- honestly! It's just that refusing-to-take-no-for-an-answer thing that gets my goat. (Again, that doesn't mean you personally.)

I don't want to silence you or any other Christian -- and I honestly don't believe there's a single atheist (at least here) who wants you to lock yourself in some closet either. That would just be wrong. However, problems arise when some Christians out there fail to remember that their right to extend their fist ends where our noses begin.

I'm no Mel Gibson fan, but he sure gets a lot more attacks from the left for pushing his brand of traditional Catholicism than Madonna gets for pushing her brand of trendy Judaism.

You really think Madonna pushes Kabbala the way Gibson pushes his scary brand of Catholicism (sorry, it may be traditional, but it doesn't resemble my pre-Vatican II experience)?

Perhaps Mel is even more of a media whore than Madonna is, or I just haven't stumbled over Madonna saying anything nearly as outrageous as Gibson has. But if Mel takes more hits, he's brought it on himself. And that's not an indictment of his faith -- it's simply true for any public figure: If you're going to use your celebrity to preach, regardless of how mainstream or not your beliefs, you're putting yourself out there as fair game.

Just as we do here on DU -- albeit without quite as large an audience, or with such throngs of adoring fans. Well, okay, so maybe matcom has his bevy of lovestruck stalkers -- I haven't asked him. ;)

Anyway...! Thanks for the interaction, Doc. It's been enlightening, and I appreciate the time you've taken. We'll have to discuss Christianity (apart from Christians) sometime.

Believe it or not, it's one of my favorite subjects. :)

[Texican]

66. It Really Does Take a Lot of Nerve

The fundy, excuse me, the delusional warmongers never tire of trying to force by law or any other means what they believe on others. It could be a Sunday bluelaw in Texas or a phoney government held up by torture in Iraq. If anyone objects to it then guess who yells that they are being persecuted. The fact that the whole world may explode into war because a fundy, excuse me, a delusional moran in the Whitehouse thinks that god tells him what to do is no big deal.

The fish sign is pretty funny. It is the old fertility sign of the earth goddess sometimes known as Easter. She was worshipped on her day with things that were full of life, you know, like flowers, bunnies, eggs. She and the Sun God got together at the start of Spring. That is why the worship began at sunrise. Since it was a fertility festival, representing rebirth after Winter a 28 day calender was used to calculate it. That is why the earth goddess' day comes at different Sun God days each year. Ichtus was scribbled onto everything for thousands of years and represented fertility. The christians turned it on it's side and said that it was a fish and not what it really is. Yeah old Ichtus is a female sex organ. I laugh every time I see one on a fundy, er I mean bible banger's car. They sure do seem to like that symbol.

[smirkymonkey]

84. Do you have a link?

I would be interested in reading more about it. thanks in advance!

[Texican]

108. Burn In Hail

Yep that is what will happen if you laugh.

"..." The "Great Goddess" was portrayed elsewhere with pendulous breasts, accentuated buttocks and a conspicuous vaginal orifice, the upright "vesica piscis" which Christians later adopted and rotated 90-degrees to serve as their symbol."



http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/hawaii2.htm

[Texican]

122. Get Your Fish Here

For my 100th post I shall reply to myself. If you want a fish that will make a real statement, may I suggst one of these.


http://www.giveyourselftojesus.com/cgi-bin/cpshop/cpshop.cgi?storeid=jesusshop.87906&page=1&trail=jesusshop~GYTJ%20Store~1&st=Fishy%20Stickies

[AngryAmish]

190. Would you answer some questions for me please?

Why do some homosexuals feel compelled to put rainbows on their cars and let me know that they are a Gay. Why do they want homosexuality forced on schools as science? Why to the keep saying that the founding fathers wanted a homosexual nation? Why do the gay people hate so many other people?

That to me is being elitist and I don't like it, but what can I do?

I feel that it is important to have tolerance for others lifestyle choice but I never hear anyone else complain about being prejudiced against yet be so damned elitist.

Stop shoving your sexuality in my face and maybe I will feel a bit more tolerant of you. It goes both ways.

I was raised around homosexuals and am thinking about going to a gay bar this weekend so don't think don't know something about the idea.

(tolerance is a good thing)

(this is not an anti-gay screed on my part. This is a touch of sarcasm)

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

18. I have a good reason for disliking and fearing religion

I'm gay, and religion is the main force in this society giving sanction to (and, depending on the denomination, actually calling for) discrimintion against gays and lesbians.

As the vast majority of our society is Xtian, its the Xtians Im talking about when i talk about 'religion" acting as an enabler of prejudice and discrimination.

[Az]

19. There are some language issues

I expect that you would percieve that Rev Phelp variety of Christian as a reprehensible exacmple of Christianity. Some would refer to his example as an extreme form of fundimentalism (though it is probably the result of some other neurological issues). There are examples of all manner of people doing some rather heinous acts in the name of Christianity. The broad term Fundie is generally used to denote these extreme examples.

The unfortunate part is that there are a great many people that consider themselves fundimentalists and are still liberals in many ways. The problem becomes one of awareness of the differences between these various groups. To date the group we would associate negative ideas with are far more vocal then the fundimentalists that advocate tolerance and understanding. Thus they tend to bear the brunt of the term fundie and all the negative connotations people associate with it.

The number of sects and denominations that claim Christianity are far more than anyone should reasonably be expected to keep track of. It is our own human nature to create labels for groups that can be readily identified by common traits. This can be something as innocent as a nickname to something as subversive as a racial epithet.

Often times a person does not percieve the harm they inflict with such labels. The term fundie could be in their mind reserved for a particular subset of Christianity. They may not be aware of other sects that consider themself fundimentalists and liberal. If this is so the best recourse is to advise them of your state and let them know how their words affect you. If their intent was not to harm you then they may well reciprocate by defining their terms in a more suitible fashion.

[leyton]

137. That is what I'm asking for: a recognition of the harm that is inflicted.

Your last paragraph outlines what I was trying to achieve with this thread. Thanks :)

[alittlelark]

20. 'fundy' is 5 letters long

'fundamentalist evangelical' is 25 letters long.

[tandot]

21. I went to a University in the "Bible Belt" and one of the

students (my friend) dared to give a speech about Homosexuality. The Professor, in front of the class, scolded her saying that all gays will die from Aids and that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong.

Every where I go I'll have to deal with people like your friend

"who are more conservative, and one in particular who is neither shy nor apologetic for his more conservative brand of Christianity. He takes the Bible literally, goes on mission trips, and is willing to talk about his faith to anyone, anytime"

See, I don't go around telling you that you shouldn't believe. And if people would take the Bible literally, they wouldn't eat shrimp, wouldn't wear clothes made from two fabrics, wouldn't shave, would sell their daughters into slavery, and all the other nice things recommended by the Good Book. Most just take the parts of the Bible that they like and ignore others. They pick and choose.

[El Supremo]

23. Huh?

Please further explain to me why "Fundie" and "X-tian" are derogative words. They look like nicknames to me. And do you not like the word Xmas? After all the "X", or chi is a symbol for Christ.

If what you are really saying is that you don't like the intolerance shown to Fundamentalists, then I would say that the particular fundamentalists that I ridicule are against the Constitution and especially the 1st Amendment. They are the same as Nazis.

[turiya]

24. xtians sure are hypersensitive

I wonder if jesus got offended by mere words.....

[Catholic Sensation]

47. no more so than some of the ultra feminists on here

who take every word with any kind of gender connotation to be a sexist term.

[Runcible Spoon]

110. oh, real cute.

was that really necessary?

[Pithlet]

168. I agree

Totally unnecessary.

[Pithlet]

169. No more so than people who

Bring totally unrelated subjects up in a thread to bash others.

[LoZoccolo]

196. Oops I replied to the wrong message.

Sorry! See my post below to the main thread if you are interested in what it was!

[Taverner]

25. Definition time

OK....Christianity has many flavors and nuances, but the three main ones which need definition are:

MAINLINE PROTESTANT/CATHOLIC: This can be anything from the Unitarians to the Mainline Presbetyrians. The bible is seen as inspired by God, but an account by someone who is human and fallible. Some view it as a book of wisdom, rather than the word of God.

EVANGELICAL: (Baptist Gen. Conf., Reformed Church, Some Lutheran, Some non-denominational, Even some Pentacostal) Beleives that the bible is the inspired word of God. May or may not beleive in a personal relationship with Jesus (but most likely.) Usually anti-choice on issues of abortion, but more flexible in this area (threat to mothers life, rape, incest, etc). Not relativist, but will not always define things as worldly/godly. Strives towards Godliness, but will understand that they are not living in a bubble. Usually beleives science is the process of unlocking the mysteries of God.

FUNDAMENTALIST: Beleives the Bible is the LITERAL word of God. Some will even go as far as to say it is the logos, or holy logic which the universe is built upon. Discounts science, logic, reason. Abortion is taboo, however war is not. Often sees the war on terror as the prelude to the apocalypse and that the US is 'Gods Army.' Everything is divided into 'worldly' and 'godly' and one is to strictly avoid 'worldly.' Every person, action, thing is either good or evil.

These are very loose definitions, and there are some who fit in both.

[El Supremo]

56. Correction

The majority of mainline Presbyterianism is part of the "Reformed Church" and not very evangelical.

[Taverner]

65. yes, there are churches that straddle both

I remember there is the Dutch Reformed, which are Evangelical-lite, and the American Reformed, who are clearly Mainline.

Presbeteryans come in many flavors too, as do the Baptists.

I gave up identifying sects early on just because many denominations vary church to church.

[TrogL]

26. So how many of these Christians denounce Falwell and his ilk?

[sangh0]

38. try

www.sojo.net

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. Hell, even the REPUBLICAN Christians I know denounce Falwell!

Pat Robertson too. They probably secretly appreciate the political contributions those assholes have made to the GOP, but they don't claim to agree with them.

[HFishbine]

27. Chik-fil-a ? Why didn't you say so?

Man, I love me some Chik-fil-a! Even though I'm aware they are a "Christian" business (I can't get my fix on Sunday's), I've never seen any indication of them proselytizing in their restaurants.

I think it's the evangelical proselytizing that gets on people's nerves. Yeah, you have a right to talk to me about your beliefs, enclose tracks in the mail you send me, knock on my door on Saturday morning, and hammer "Jesus Saves" signs onto road-side trees (actually, you probably don't have a right to do that.) But look, that can get awfully annoying. People resent talking about their spiritual lives with strangers. You have a right to do it and I have a right to be annoyed.

Finally, I wouldn't take offense at Xtian, it's an abbreviation, like X-mas.

[AntiCoup2K4]

33. There is a major difference between real Christians and Freeper "fundies".

BTW, I think it's hilarious how a few rabid anti-theists are as rabid in their hatred of any sort of spiritual path whatsoever, as any gay bashing racist Bush worshipping Freeper is.

[kaitykaity]

36. If criticism of organized religion

bothers you, then hide those threads. That option
is available to me, and I use it often.

I hate it when Christians preach at me. I absolutely
fucking hate it. But most of the time I keep that to
myself.

"Take what you want from DU and leave the rest." If
some of us are anti-fundy, anti-Xtian, there's not a whole
hell of a lot you can do about it.

[sidwill]

39. I too am a Christian

Specifically a Greek orthodox Christian.

But I'm not offended at all by the term Fundy or Xtians. These terms are used to describe a specific group of hypocrites that use Religion as a political wedge for the benefit of the Republican party.

Those terms describe people like Jerry Falwell who hates more than he loves, who supports war and the death penalty.

It describes people who are so virulently anti abortion that posting the names and addresses of providers on the web seems reasonable and who simultaneously see no problem in cutting funding for health car and education.

It describes people who support Israel, but only because they believe that it will bring on the end of the world.

So try not to get too offended these terms are reserved for the modern day "pharissees" that beat their chest and say "look at me, I am righteous".

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

45. Kudos! If we could recommend a post, this would be one I would n/t.

[tnlefty]

41. Isn't tolerance the key?

I don't try to force my church or beliefs on these 'fundie' types, but I can't count the number of times that they've tried to 'convert' me and I've had enough of it. They have no intention of tolerating anyone else's beliefs even others who happen to belong to another Christian church, i.e., me.

Funny that these people don't live up to their strict belief system, but want to foist it onto the rest of us.

[FrankBooth]

43. Fundamentalism of any kind is type of mental disorder

I am an agnostic, but I have many Christian friends. They are not perfect, and do not claim to be. They are rational, tolerant, and genuinely good people.

Fundamentalism is a pschological human characteristic which can be applied to any belief system, and in my opinion, is a type of mental weakness or disorder.

If you could take the fundamentalism out of Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Andrea Dworkin or Jerry Falwell, that would go a long way towards solving humanity's problems.

[stopthegop]

49. out of curiosity..

what fundamentalism do you perceive in Hitler?

[FrankBooth]

67. Just that ...

Fundamentalism to me means an absolutist belief system ... Hitler's racialist views for one, his political inflexibility, his intolerance to any other viewpoint.

My point in using Hitler (or Dworkin) as an example is that I think fundamenatlist thought isn't exclusive to the spiritual, that fundamentalism itself is a psychological condition which can be applied to any human belief system. Fundamentalists have populated our planet since the dawn of civillization, and they are living in every country in the world right now, in one form or another.

[stopthegop]

69. thanks eom

[Dookus]

53. aww... the poor put-upon xtians...

when will somebody cut them a break? Maybe one day they'll come to dominate our culture and society. Oh wait...

[Vogon_Glory]

55. I Could See Your Viewpoint, But...

I can understand your viewpoint, but I don't plan to comply with your suggestions.

Why? Because the sort of self-styled "Christian" most of us are mocking here has no intention of treating our viewpoints or beliefs with either courtesy or respect. I don't see that they deserve to be treated with soft words or kid gloves.

Most of the people many DU's are mocking are the politically and socially reactionary fundamentalist evangelical protestants. These were (and some remain) the very same people who have opposed such things as women's suffrage, reproductive choice (I'm talking about birth control here, not abortion), freedom of speech, public schools and universities, and racial integration. Many of these self-styled "Christians" also had ties with white supremacists. Many of these very same people also oppose immigration and immigrants, usually because the immigrants practice a different religion or Christian sect than they do.

Many of these right-wing reactionary fundamentalist/evangelicals are the direct political heirs and heiresses of the anti-Catholic "Know Nothing" movement.

These self-styled "Christians" have no intention of respecting anyone else's religion--or many other Christian sects. Most of them make no bones about their hostility to such religions such as Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism. A bit of channel-surfing through many of these peoples' religious broadcasts would also demonstrate that these people have little respect for other Christian denominations like the Unitarians or Jehovah's Witnesses.

In fact many of these very same people also don't have much respect for either the Roman Catholic Church or other liturgical churches like the various Anglican Churches or the Greek or Russian Orthodox Churches. When these right-winger fundamentalist--evangelicals are caught being candid, they will in fact tell you that unless you're a "born again Christian" just like they are, you aren't a Christian either. And they don't mean born again either through the sacraments of baptism, either.

You probably are a salt of the Earth good Catholic and Christian. But I bet you didn't know that you weren't considered a Christian by these folks.

I use "Xian" to describe these people. I don't use the term to diss Christianity as a whole. I use "Xian" to describe these narrow-minded religious bigots so as not to pollute the good name of Jesus of Nazareth when referring to these jokers.

My apologies if I offend. I'm from Texas, an Episcopalian currently attending Unity, and I've been exposed to these people for years. In my opinion, people living outside the Bible Belt need to know more about the right-wing "born again" and their not-so-uplifting beliefs.

[Dems2002]

216. Reply

I guess I don't believe the, "they did it first" excuse is quite fair, if the way we supposedly define ourselves as liberals is to accept the world around us even if we disagree.

I believe in attempting to understand the world around me. Which means not having a knee jerk reaction to the World Trade Center and wanting to hear a balanced opinion on why the perpetraters did what they did. I don't want to excuse them because of this, but I get terribly embarrassed when I hear some nut use "towl head" in a derogatory manor.

So why isn't it possible to dislike the actions of a person, even a group of persons, without painting everyone with the same brush? Why is it that on this board, if someone makes a claim about fundamentalist muslims, others are going to immediately jump all over that person and stand up for moderate muslims the world over? Yet the opposite happens in regards to Christianity.

I am an evangelical christian. I don't go to the church my parents attend because I cannot stand that every single member of my parents fellowship group is a hard core republican. I'm still asking my mother to arrange a lunch or dinner with one of the women who wants to understand how a person can be a liberal christian. I can't wait to get the opportunity to "preach liberalism" to this person.

But how can I hope to sway any of these people to my side when they point to the people of the left as being anti-Christian. I can argue all day long for the separation of Church and State and that taking prayer out of school is not a bad thing, but when folks here complain about people having a fish bumpersticker? That smacks as much of intolerance to me as republicans who honk their horns and behave like idiots to folks with Kerry or liberal bumperstickers.

Best,

Dems

[Vogon_Glory]

221. Evangelicals And Some of The Rest of Us

"But how can I hope to sway any of these people to my side when they point to the people of the left as being anti-Christian."

That is one of the matters I'm pointing out--the attitude of certain self-righteous reactionary evangelicals who insist that they and they alone are Christians. I've got news for your parents' family and friends--that attitude is resented by many liturgical Christians and by many so-called "mainline Protestant" believers. Some of us resent that sort of theological arrogance more than others.

Similarly, many of the rest of us strongly resent the attitude of certain politicized reactionary evangelicals that their right-wing reactionary beliefs alone are the only valid "Christian" beliefs.

I can't stop a politicized reactionary evangelical from concluding that all Democrats are crazed secular humanists bent on converting the entire US population into atheists. But I can relate my knowledge as to some of the reasons why certain reactionary evangelicals are strongly resented.

[wryter2000]

58. I use the term Xtian specifically because I respect Christianity

I loathe and deplore what passes with some people for Christianity. Although I'm not a believer, I have a great deal of respect for the faith and the teachings of Jesus. I do not apologize for putting down the sort of people who want to push Biblical literalism into our science classrooms and to paint this as a Christian nation. If I think the owners of a company back that sort of destructive nonsense, I will not support them with my dollars.

[chicagojoe]

61. All should be respected, yet the "Fundys" don't seem to understand ...

...the concept of tolerance and respect for others.
The problem with many, though certainly not all, Evangelicals is their misguided belief that they are somehow "chosen ones". They also do not seem to understand the FACT that in the US, they are lucky enough to be able to worship as they please. This does not give them the right to try and rule our nation. They should just worship as they please, and leave the rest of us - the majority- alone.
Nations that are ruled by clerics and other religious zealots can never be free, and I will fight to the last drop of the blood of ANY person or institution that would curtail our nations' freedoms.

[seabeyond]

63. then take your religion back

take it out of the rules of all who live on this soil. don't allow it to dictate how we as people, all people live in this country, and by the way, across the world. the religions are creating this Armageddon. the religion is at the crux of what has happened the last four years.

you want to leave religion out of it, as religion is full center, around above and below of the issue of what is happening in the united states. and effecting people across the world.

when bush stands before all and says god told me to go to war. when religions say they go to hell if they vote Kerry, when all kids in public schools are called ungodly, and there is an orchestrated effort to abolish public school system to allow private separate church schools to condition the kids, then we loose the free thinkers. we have a bunch of cult like citizens, parallel to the fundamentalist in middle east, parallel to how hilter ism was created.

take back your religion, as yours to practice. and lets get back to the separation of church and state.

i have boys in a baptist fundamentalist school. less offensive using the whole word. just more to type. i have watched the last 5 years what they create. and it isn't a pretty picture. i have watched a difference the last two years, especially this last year in what they are teaching the kids.

there is a responsibility in being a preacher, to the followers. a greater responsibility than anything i know. and when they allow agenda and wants and desires to take over the purity of their religion, then i am saying, a lot of people will be hurt. it is wrong.

what are you going to do to help them to see as clearly they have lost their way. or do you just keep your mouth shut and allow them to walk the wrong path, the path in darkness, a hell on earth

[SoCalDem]

70. I was born and raised catholic, but when I turned 18,

I "gave it all up".. I have many friends who are many faiths, and even though I have known some of them for 30+ years, I could not tell you which religions they chose.. It's not of any consequence to me.. We are friends because of who they are as a person, not where they go on Sundays or what books they believe in..

The ones who get the "treatment" here are the ones who wear their "faith" on their sleeves and are always ready to "preach".. It's never been about the religion..but it's always been about the hypocrisy..

The "fundies" that get our/my attention, are the ones who preach goodness and values, and yet seem to be unable to follow their own advice.. personally, I could not care less if they cheat on their wives or their business partners, but when they choose to elevate themselves to a position of "ultra-propriety and piety", they have become a lightning rod, and due diligence towards their own personal behavior is inescapable..

It's the actions they take that single them out for ridicule.

I hate no one, not even Bush, but I will always call attention to the "attention-whores" among the republican party who set themselves on that highest of pedestals, and then knock themselves off it.:)

[robertpaulsen]

71. Not sure I get the diff between Christian Conservative & Fundamentalist.

As a liberal Catholic, I must say that there is nobody in my circle of friends that I would describe with these labels. (The closest would be my Dad, who is conservative, but Russian Orthodox) So I'm a bit confused about the difference between the two. It seems to me that you're saying Christian Conservatives and Christian Fundamentalists both take the Bible literally and try to spread their faith to everyone they meet. The difference is that fundamentalists are xenophobic racists while conservatives are not. Am I reading you correctly on that?

I'm also wondering if you know whether Christian Conservative and Christian Fundamentalists both believe in the rapture. It seems to me that it is the fundamentalists in our government (Bush, Ashcroft, Boykin et. al.) subscribing to this theory that is driving our xenophobic homicidal foreign policy. I've never been able to understand how anyone could take the Bible literally and then believe in a theory that has no Biblical founding. I've read Revelations several times and I've never found "rapture" predicted in any single verse.

I'm curious about how conservative religious beliefs affect your friend's political convictions. Does your friend support Bush? Or is he able to know Bush by the fruits of his spirit and realize just how un-Christian his policies are?

I understand your frustration reading posters here who lump "fundies" together, but I also understand their frustration. It's pretty rare to find Conservative Christians who don't support Bush. Supporting Bush is enabling Fundamentalism, which to most people here is just as bad as being a Fundamentalist.

[robertpaulsen]

124. Hello? Leyton? Bueller? Anyone?

[leyton]

139. Well, I consider it a matter of degrees.

When I was mentioning conservatives, I was talking about those who, for example, don't want to see gay marriage but aren't crusading against it. Fundamentalists are those who I would categorize as those who interpret the Bible literally (really literally, as in, not even Revelation is metaphor) and crusade. It's a matter of degrees in my book.

They're not formal groups, so I don't know that I could say if they do or do not believe in the Rapture.

As for my friend, his religious beliefs do affect his political convictions, although he is not particularly political. He does support Bush, I think by the social policy token. I'm pretty sure he doesn't agree with the war, though I haven't asked him. He's generally distrustful of politicians (perhaps with good reason...).

[mike1963]

75. Don't forget that generally the people we call 'fundies' think Catholics

are not "TRVE Christians."

IOW, they sure as hell are not on YOUR side.

[Servo300]

81. some may be that way

But you're painting with a rather broad brush.

[mike1963]

98. No, I am not because they are "that way" by -definition.-

If you can find a fundy who considers Catholics "christianly equal", send him over, I'll serve him a scotch & soda (which he will drink if he believes me when I say I won't tell anybody.)

[robertpaulsen]

117. Right!

Most fundies look at ultra-conservative Catholic Mel Gibson and say, "One of us! One of us!"

[Cannikin]

76. The biggest difference to me when referring to 'fundies'....

Is the difference between true Christians and closed-minded bigots.

[Catholic Sensation]

77. I basically put the fundamentalist christians and anti-Christian atheists

into the same category: know-nothing bigots.

Anyone who claims they know they're 100% right is closed minded, and since they believe THEY'RE the only ones who are right, they are therefore calling every other line of thought wrong, and are therefore bigots.

I've seen posts on here by Christians and Atheists alike who've said things like "I'm a Christian/Atheist, and I can't understand how anyone can believe otherwise." Posts like these show the ignorance of the poster.

No religion has it 100% right.

[Az]

83. A little twist

"No religion has it 100% right."

That may not be true. Someone could well be right. But with so many differing opinions and contradicting opinions, the only thing we can honestly say is:

Somebody is wrong.

[FrankBooth]

91. The only thing we fallible human beings can honestly say is ...

... we don't really know. We can have faith, but faith can be misdirected. Faith can be flat out wrong.

You enter into the pact with faith knowing that you could be wrong, even if you don't want to admit it.

[Catholic Sensation]

92. I've always felt, and this is just me being a weird catholic,

that God loves all the people of Earth equally, regardless of religion, that in the end He makes it so they feel like they were right.

Like people who believe in reincarnation, get reincarnated; people who believe in Heaven and Hell go to Heaven or Hell; and people who simply don't believe in anything end up going to Nirvana which is ultimate nothingness.

I truly believe that God being all powerful could make this happen, and it's a much more comforting thought than everyone who doesn't believe Jesus was the Son of God is suffering for eternity.

[smirkymonkey]

99. Or maybe we're all wrong.

Or...all right. In contemplating the unknowable, I don't believe there is a right/wrong. Just different paths on the spiritual journey.

I personally have a problem with fundamentalists of all kinds, mainly because they can't leave well enough alone. It is soooooooooo important to them that they are RIGHT. The one true way. That way of thinking is immature and smacks of insecurity.

I think true faith is quiet and doesn't require power over others. This world is in a lot of trouble and much of it has to do with fundametalist ideologies of one type or another.

[VOX]

80. Fundamentalist *anything* leads to trouble: fear, exclusivity, demonizing

Any kind of fundamentalism is dangerous -- whether Christian, Muslim, whatever.

A rigid, intractable belief system sets the course for all kinds of conflict and eventual bloodshed, as the system is fear-based, and it usually characterizes any differing thought or behavior as threatening.

It becomes horrifyingly easy to commit crimes against humanity if the acts are deemed to be in alignment with the belief system.

[FrankBooth]

94. Exactly (nt)

nt

[hippiegranny]

85. i'll keep my comments about fundies

to myself when they start keeping their religious insanity out of my government. enough has been said here about the difference between fundies and genuine well meaning people of faith that i don't need to elaborate further other than to agree there is a difference.

[freetobegay]

87. Several people here think that if your a Christian you must be a fundie!

It's disgusting & needs to stop!

[kimchi]

90. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

It takes way too much energy to be upset over what people think of a group you don't even belong to.

If I got upset everytime someone was called a Witch when they really meant Bitch; I'd have had a heart attack by now. Just let it roll of your back. Most of us have a problem with fundamentalists who are trying to erase our freedoms. I certainly don't lump all Christians into one group, and I have a feeling few here do. Well, maybe some atheists, who sometimes put all religious peoples in the same category. Don't sweat the small stuff.

[ibegurpard]

103. My sentiments as well.

eom

[leftofthedial]

97. like anyplace else in a secular society

DU includes people of various religions and lack of religions. Some of us, myself included, have strong opinions about religion; others don't care much one way or the other. Be careful not to characterize DU as anti-Christian, because that is not true.

IMHO, those who repeatedly start religious threads (from any point of view) seem to have an agenda that has little to do with the political urgencies of our times.

I am outspoken about religion and if asked I will respond accordingly, but I long ago got over the urge to start threads here about religion. Such threads are a distraction and are more often used by those opposed to the politics of this board to divide us and keep us from talking about subjects that are more relevant. I know I am not going to change anyone's mind about religion by posting on an Internet forum. It is a waste of time. When I do post on the subject, it is to counter disinformation, because I am outraged or just because it makes me feel better to get my feelings off my chest.

My advice is if you want to argue about religion, go somewhere else and do it. If you are offended when someone calls you a delusional, mentally ill, superstitious, fundy, bible-thumping Xtian (for example), put them on ignore, or just don't read posts on religion that are likely to spawn such language.

[Eloriel]

164. THANK you!

I am outspoken about religion and if asked I will respond accordingly, but I long ago got over the urge to start threads here about religion.

This is a political board. AFAIC, the ONLY time religion or Christianity should be discussed here in GD is when it's in a distinctly political context.

And THIS ain't one of them. IMO this thread doesn't even belong in GD.

I prefer a secular society where one's religion and spiritual practices are private and personal and treated that way. I don't care what your religion is, and I'd just as soon not have to hear about it (and yes, I know I clicked on this thread -- after ignoring it for quite some time, but regrettably not hiding it, my curiosity finally got the better of me). I don't want my politicians and elected officials pushing or even mentioning their religion much if at all, and I don't want my POLITICAL DISCUSSION FORUMS filled with unnecessary, apolitical discussions on the sbuject (tho The Lounge and The Meeting Room are suitable exceptions).

And this is the one place in the universe where I can use a term like "Repug" and not offend someone, and I'll continue to do it. I rarely engage in any discussions where I might use the word Christian, and don't recall I've ever used Xtian -- but only because I type fast and it's not that much of a burden to type Christian. Like many others, I don't find it offensive except in the aesthetic sense (as when people type R for "are" and 4 to represent "for") and then only slightly.

And I will also say this: because this IS a secular society (i.e., not a theocracy), and a highly diverse one at that, if one brings their religion into a public discussion forum (esp. a political one), AFAIC they can expect to have that religion discussed in ways they may not care for.

[leftofthedial]

165. hear hear! (n/t)

[The Stranger]

100. "I'm not a fundamentalist Christian by any means . . . "

Then why all the hubub, bub?

Fundamentalist Christians are just as bad as Fundamentalist Muslims and Fundamentalist Jews. They exist for one another.

[Speck Tater]

104. If the true fundies

are really a minority then why do they exercise so much power in this country?

And if they exercise all that power even though they are truly in the minority then doesn't the fault lie with the majority of mainstream Christians who have allowed the good name of their religion to be hijacked and dragged through the mud?

Who is more guilty, the person who commits the wrong or the person who, seeing it happen, takes no action to prevent it. I say they are both guilty. If you and your maintream non-fundie friends want to reclaim the good name of Christianity, then get off your butts and DO IT instead of allowing the fundie tail to wag the Christian dog.

And the same goes for Islam. If good, decent, honorable, peace-loving Muslims around the world are really fed up with the good name of their religion being dragged through the mud by a few violent extremists, then they should care enough to do something about reclaiming the good name of their religion.

The one thing no person is ever entitled to do is to complain about some problem that he or she has never lifted a finger to prevent or solve.

[Astarho]

107. Fundy has replaced

the older (and probably more accurate) term zealot. Whenever people speak of fundy christians, fundy jews or fundy athiests, they usually mean the over-zealous.

The problem on DU is that many posters here have had their unfriendly (or in some cases hostile) brushes with organized religion, in particular Christianity (As a pagan, I know I have). And in what is an unfortunate part of the human condition, usually whenever a group is free from persecution or gains a majority, they immediately begin persecuting others.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

121. Persecuting others?

How are ZEALOT (and non-zealot) Christians being persecuted?

Swatted at like annoying flies.

Yelled at like barking dogs.

Tolerated like a migraine headache....

But PERSECUTED???????? ONLY in their own minds.

[Classical_Liberal]

109. I'm a Christian and use the term fundy to denote the religious right

I will continue to do so.

[guitar man]

111. Screw the fundies

Maybe I'm a bit jaded from living in the middle of them for most of my life here in Oklahoma, but I have just about had enough of them. They are insistent on using the power of government to regulate MY PERSONAL LIFE against my will. According to state law, it is illegal for me to have certain types of sex with MY OWN WIFE in the privacy of my home.

Right now, they are pushing an amendment to our state constitution specifically designed to further lessen the rights of GLBT people. The crux of the amendment is to specifically deny recognition of same-sex marriages from other states.

I don't think I need to go on ad nauseum about what the majority of fundies stand for. If they want respect from me, they are going to hae to EARN IT by showing me some respect also. If any fundies are offended by what I have to say, good! Go police your own organizations. Just don't expect to be able to deride and denigrate me at will because I don't believe in and worship God according to your prescribed beliefs without me striking back. I am an AMERICAN, and I'll live my life any way I please as long as that doesn't infringe on anyone elses rights!

[Merlin]

112. Fundamentalism is the biggest problem in the world today.

Fundamentalism is the root cause of (1) the I/P conflict, (2) Muslim terrorism, (3) American triumphalist warmongering, (4) the fight against science in US schools, (5) demonization of gays, (6) the belief that some are born to rule and others born to live in servitude, and on and on.

Christianity deserves to be derided, ridiculed and harrassed until it wakes up and starts standing up against fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is essentially believing "The Bible is The Word of God", and therefore must be taken literally. But the time has come for sensible Christians, Muslims and Jews to proclaim the truth: that The Bible is nothing more than a compilation of legends and folk history.

If God ever chose to write anything, it would be impeccable, clear, non-contradictory and unequivocally brilliant. The Bible, on the other hand, is a jumble of sloppy writing, contradictions, multiple versions of the same story, incoherent parables, absurd commandments (not the 10 we all know, but the 523 others) and tales of rape, lust, murder, slavery, and hate.

The Old Testament portrays God as a vicious, deceitful, blood thirsty racist. I do not believe in that kind of God.

This is the book that all good Christians adore. Yet this is a book of hatred and blood lust. It needs to be clearly and publicly pronounced--by Christians--as deeply flawed, and NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY.

Most Christians see Jesus from a selfish standpoint: as savior and redeemer. But Jesus was much more than that. Jesus was a social reformer. He believed in love, sharing, and building a better world through justice and fair treatment for all. THAT is the message Christians in this nation readily permit to slip through the cracks of their hypocracy.

Christianity has a HUGE problem today with an extremism which, in conduct and belief, deviates from its most basic tenets, and which has become a potent, diabolical, malicious political force. This is one problem that starts and ends with the believers.

[northofdenali]

113. You'll really dislike this lapsed Catholic's choice of bumper

sticker: "Born OK the first time"

[Speck Tater]

118. As a Buddhist,

I prefer the bumper sticker "Born again, and again, ..."

[JHBowden]

120. Your religion says I will suffer eternal punishment.

Yet you're upset by being referred to as a fundy? Get real.

[freetobegay]

126. Excuse me but my religion doesn't say that!

Talk about lumping people together! :eyes:

[JHBowden]

129. Christians believe everyone goes to heaven?

I didn't know that. If you're not a Christian, it is obvious by the context my first post didn't apply to you.

[alcuno]

135. Fundies don't believe that Catholics will go to heaven.

We haven't been born again. And when the Holy Father said that Jews would go to heaven it caused a huge uproar with the fundamentalists. All "Christians" don't believe the same things.

[leyton]

140. I'm not judging you.

My religion, the doctrine of my church, can say whatever it wants. I'm not responsible for what it says. Personally, I refuse to say who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. It isn't my place, and I don't think I indicated that it was.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mandyky]

141. several times the owners and moderators at DU

have forbade threads about religion, for this reason. The religious seem to have thin skins, while the heathens tend to go overboard. Hopefully, once shrub is gone, and the Christian right lose some of the power they have had, our level of acrimony will go down a bit here.

Try not to be too offended, most of the people who do this won't change, and they really don't do it to hurt YOU personally.

[Nlighten1]

142. Fundy Xians hella suck...

If you want people to stop thinking ill of your religion how about reforming it from within?

[leyton]

143. Eating my words about "Xtian."

I have been educated (several times over) about the meaning of Xtian. Guess I misinterpreted that one. Scratch my last paragraph, thanks for not jumping all over me about that one. :)

Still, though...

[guitar man]

146. still?

Still what? The debate over the usage of "x" notwithstanding, you seem to be seeking respect and tolerance for a group (fundamentalists etc.) who have NO respect and NO tolerance for anyone who doesn't supplicate themselves to and march in lockstep with their belief system. I am surrounded by these people where I live and they absoultely make me want to hurl. They bully their way through society DEMANDING respect inthe name of God instead of trying to earn that respect by giving respect to other people and their beliefs in kind.

They'll get no respect or tolerance from me without earning it.

[leyton]

148. No...

I'm asking if we could stop acting like all Christians are fundamentalist.

[guitar man]

156. No problem there

I was a little confused by the statment in your original post where you stated <"Fundy" gets to me.>. I don't think all Christians are *fundies*, that's why I might use the term *fundies* to describe the arrogant, bigoted and intolerant sects among the Christian community. In other words, I would use the term to not try and paint with a broad brush rather than using the term *Christian* to describe them.

I too have a personal belief in God and read the Bible quite often, along with other religious writings. I have chosen the term *heretic* to describe my beliefs because at one time in history I am sure I would have been tortured and executed by the *Christians* of the day for what I choose to believe.

[Mike Niendorff]

144. As an ex-fundie myself, I want to make one thing perfectly clear here:

Today's right-wing fundamentalists are emphatically *not* Christians.


MDN

[Hell Hath No Fury]

145. From all the years I have been on DU...

I have seen these usages as a way for the DU community to distinguish the crazy-ass/right-wing/nutjob "Christians" from the sane ones, this after MANY complaints from the Christians on this board of being lumped in with the nutjobs.

All Christians are not created equally, and most of us here know that and try to reflect that in our posts through our word usage. And there are many other DUers who have no use for religion of ANY kind and say so in blunt terms. That is called free speech.

Too many Christians here think all DUers are being anti-Christian when most are truly being anti-Phelps/Robertson/Falwell/"Christian".

I have no use for the c.a.r.w.n.c's and make no bones about saying so -- if that description doesn't apply to you, then there's no need to be offended, right?

[DoNotRefill]

150. Freedom of Religion...

extends to ALL religions. Even fundie Christians.

I'm a hard-core agnostic. To me, ALL religions seem very strange. That doesn't mean that believers should be treated with disrespect, unless an individual believer does something stupid, in which case it's open season on ONLY that individual.

[Cleita]

151. There are Christians and there are X-tians.

I think you know the difference. I tuned on my car radio today while I was running errands and accidentally came across a X-tian talk show. The host and guest were talking about end times.

Then there was the business in the Middle East. The guest who has a Christian ministry and a dozen books about Satan and end times out, said that we have to invade Syria to stop what is happening in Iraq because that is where the weapons of mass destruction are and where all the Al Queda insurgents are coming into Iraq are from. SAY WHAT?? We have to invade Syria to solve Iraq?

Well, I had to go do my shopping and when I came out and turned on the radio, they were talking about the type of place that Jesus wants to return to for his Second Coming. They said it had to be a Christian empire like the old Roman Empire, but Christian and Rome would be the seat. No mention of the Vatican though.

I'm thinking.

ARE THESE PEOPLE FUCKING INSANE????

[Rex]

152. Obviously your idea of a "fundy" and mine don't jibe.

To me, a fundy is someone who embraces hate and intolerance towards others while lauding their God over everyone elses head. A fundy is someone who would love to make creationism a part of all high school textbooks. A fundy is someone that loves to use the word Jesus about a thousand times, and yet has no idea how their religion got started nor knows any history about Catholicism.

I've had quite a few Christian friends, one even a fundamentalist, and have NEVER thought of any of them as a "fundy".

FWIW, this is a PUBLIC board and to expect people to behave like yourself is IMHO asinine.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dpibel]

172. Well, let's flip that

Based on your reaction, I have to assume that you believe in god.

If you believe in god, then you believe atheists are mistaken. You may believe they are deluded by pride (per, IIRC, the Apostle Paul).

If you say, "Atheists are mistaken," are you being hateful and bigoted?

[genius]

154. I'm a Christian but I think most chuch leaders are slandering Jesus.

Jesus would never approve of what Bush is doing. He was a liberal. The Catholic Church is among the better groups.

[welshTerrier2]

155. christian religions and christian politics

first, let me say that I never use any of the terms you referred to in your post ... never did and never will ... and I certainly appreciate your right to feel offended if you feel others have not shown respect to you or your religion ...

now, having said that, let me tell you why i have an infinite amount of disdain for the traditional Catholic church ... this has nothing whatsoever to do with fundalmentalist Christians ... nor does it have anything to do with Catholicism itself ...

I live in Massachusetts ...

and if you've read the news much over the past few years, you should understand two key things about the church here ... first, how many lives have been ruined by the sexual abuses committed by priests (and perhaps nuns) against young people who trusted them ... this is not "just a few bad apples" ... the pattern of abuse and the cover-up by some of the highest ranking clergy in the Catholic church is a total disgrace ... this is not a criticism of Catholicism; it is a criticism of the Church as an institution and all its hypocrisy ...

second, we're still neck deep in the "gay marriage" issue here in Massachusetts ... some of my Catholic friends have told me that there is a very well organized effort to "rally the flock" against any legislators who didn't support the Church's position on the "gay thing" ... should I hold any respect whatsoever for these heaping piles of dung who seek to organize against gay people ?? this is not a matter of opinion to which they are entitled ... they can feel free to teach any system of beliefs they choose ... i have no problem with that even though I strongly disagree with them ... but when they cross the line and enter the political process, these heaping piles of dung are fair game ... how dare they seek to impose their values on others ??!! that is just not OK with me ...

and as long as I'm on the subject, if I were running the big elevator, I would strip the church of its tax exempt status ... it is outrageous to allow tax deductions for the dollars Catholics put in the collection plate that are then used to campaign against candidates I support when contributions I make to my candidates are not tax deductible ... that is just not a level playing field ... one candidate can raise money from church contributions which are subsidized by the federal and sometimes state government and the other candidate receives no subsidy ... something is surely wrong with this picture ...

anyway, sorry to drift a bit off topic ... i guess i would conclude by saying that i believe the intent of many of the posts you've complained about is probably to focus on Christian fundamentalists as a right-wing political movement rather than as a religion ... I have not perceived a pervasive intent to disrepect Christians or their faith on DU ...

[ButterflyBlood]

157. I might refer to myself as a "Xtian" from now on

there is nothing offensive or derogatory about it.

[HuskerDem]

158. Thanks for a lovely and wonderfully expressed post

I agree with everything you just said.

I do not insult Hindus, Athiests,Jews, Pagans, etc........

It would be nice if my belief system were not spat upon on such a regular basis here. If you have a problem with certain Christians acations you should shouldn't start painting with a broad brush. That's every bit as enlightened as Aryan Nation and the most radical Imams that want to take the whole world back to the 12th century.

[CastorTroy]

163. Veering into David Limbaugh territory . . .

[arwalden]

170. You Said: "I do not insult Hindus, Athiests,Jews, Pagans, etc" --- But...

I've heard that Jewish people actually prefer not to be called "Jews". They find the word offensive (to some degree) or at the very least, it's a bit 'charged' because of subtle Nazi overtones and how it was used back then. --- Can anyone confirm this?

-- Allen

[toddzilla]

159. i'm not anti christian, i'm anti religion, anti "god" in general.

so there.

[Speck Tater]

171. I'm anti-religion. I suspect God is too. n/t

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kiliki]

179. Wow I remember when the democratic party...

was the party that argued FOR religious tolerance, instead of being the party that displayed bigotry, intolerance, ethnic and religious slurs.

[Scairp]

180. That's not it

I don't think it's intolerance so much as it is being fed up with the Christian right constantly working to force religion onto the rest of us, and into every single aspect of American life. We have O'Reilly yammering on about the "secularists" and of course Shrub and his communications with the Almighty before invading a country that has not attacked us first. They want all decisions in all matters to be predicated on Christianity and what the Bible says. Actually, THEY are the intolerant ones. They don't respect those who are not religious nor want religion interjected into everything. When they respect the non-religious and accept that laws are not going to be based on Christian doctrine, then their views and beliefs will be respected in return.

[QC]

213. Then take it up with O'Reilly, Shrub, and the gang.

Why attack liberal Christians if your problem is with the radical fundamentalists? That's no better than the freepers attacking all Muslims because of 9/11.

[Scairp]

222. This is great

I try to give a reasonable, coherent defense to the charge that Democrats are religiously intolerant and that Christians are being persecuted by the left, and I get a snippy retort. I didn't attack anyone personally. Christians are not exactly being fed to the lions now are they?

It seems lately that most Christians are fundamentalists. You never hear a reasonable take on rejecting religion in society or in law, unless it's Islam of course, from the religious right. It gets old being told you are going to hell because you have certain beliefs, like gays are people too, and being pregnant, or not, is the choice of the woman not of society. Christians are full of themselves and they need to be taken down a notch.

[QC]

225. "It seems lately that most Christians are fundamentalists."

They're not. The problem, of course, is that whenever CNN or the like wants the "Christian perspective" on an issue, who do they go running to? Falwell or the like. And in doing so, they give him and his kind far more power and visibility than they deserve. The majority of American Christians are Catholics and mainstream Protestants.

And I'm sorry to seem snippy, but I think the point is a good one: your complaints are valid, but what good does it do to jump on liberal Christians at DU who do not hold the beliefs that you object to? Other than the occasional troll, Falwellians and Dobsonites do not hang out here.

Christians are full of themselves and they need to be taken down a notch.

Did they have a special on broad brushes down at Sears?

[9215]

176. Fundies are assholes!

[JackDragna]

177. You know what? I'm glad it gets to you.

I have little tolerance for fundamentalist Christians, bordering on none. Their world is one of the last bastions of racist thought in the United States. Fundamentalists are disdainful of empiricism, philosophy and learning in general. They believe they're chosen by God to lead this nation and all other religions are to be swept away. The Constitution, in their eyes, is a tool of secular humanists. Fundamentalists also have a horrible persecution complex, claiming everyone's out to get them when they actually wield considerable influence over American society.

To hell with fundamentalists. Literally. I hope they go there and stay there.

[Spider Jerusalem]

178. Bit bloody sensitive, aren't we?

"Fundy" (a term I don't use, since I generally avoid use of abbreviation, shorthand, nicknames, et cetera, finding them to be an imprecise, often insulting, and frequently vulgar use of language) refers specifically to self-described "fundamentalist" Christians. These self-described "fundamentalists" include such denominations as the Pentecostals, Church of God, Holiness, Southern Baptists, and, in general, those elements of Christianity which form the so-called "religious right". These people are all mad as arseholes. They are raving lunatics, whose chief desire is to impose their morality upon the remainder of the populace through legislation, coercion, and other means fair and foul. Their positions are in direct opposition to the supposed meaning of America, and to most of the teachings of Jesus. They are the latter-day equivalent of Pharisees, only a hundred times worse. "Fundy" is a kind term compared to what they deserve to be called. Psycho-fucking-pathic religious zealots would be a more apt description.

And "Xian", as others have noted, is an accepted and recognised abbreviation. Respect does not enter into the equation.

Lighten up or grow a thicker skin.

[DaveSZ]

181. Most of us

The majority of us respect the Fundamentalists for their personal beliefs, and would fight to protect those beliefs, but the problem is that they are using the machine of government to force their own personal religion on everyone else.

That's very wrong from most any angle you look at it.


P.S. I will stop using the term, "Fundy" from now on. Instead I will use the term "Fundamentalist."

Is that less offensive?

[Bridget Burke]

182. It's easy to be ruff & tuff on a message board.

Thinking up cute abbreviations is much more fun than checking out the school board candidates for stealth Creationists. Or spending time working for a candidate not supported by those eager for the Rapture.

And not all Fundamentalists are the enemy. Wouldn't the Amish & Mennonites be considered Fundamentalists? In fact, the Southern Baptists used to avoid political involvement; quite a few (like Jimmy Carter) have chosen to sever their ties.

I'm not offended by the occasional fish decal. Or the Buddhist shrine at the closest convenience store. Or by women wearing scarves. I'm currently an agnostic/atheist but was raised Catholic; I'm quite aware of both the good & bad parts of that ancient faith & hope it can change to continue into the future. But much of the intolerance against any religious expression seems Puritanical & conformist--those gaudy representations of the Virgin of Guadalupe or of Lord Krishna clash dreadfully with tasteful, minimalist decor.

Having lived in Texas most of my life, I'm quite capable of defending myself against "Christians" who get in my face. But I try to save my anger for when it's needed.

[JNelson6563]

184. Walk a mile in my shoes

I am an atheist. You know the type, "godless wretch".

Fundy is one thing, it is an obvious abbreviation for fundamentalist. Is "godless" short for atheist?

Let me tell you friend, sure here at DU there may seem to be more atheists but I doubt it is so. What you may be seeing (at least in part) is a small slice of what atheists deal with all the time.

I don't think it excuses derogatory remarks toward one's beliefs, I do think it migh be helpful for you to achieve some inkling of what it is like to have the minority viewpoint.

Believe me, it has been my experience that Christians are far more vicious in their talk of atheists (and/or those of another faith) than vice versa.

Julie

[Flubadubya]

186. My only problem with "Fundy Xtians"....

Whether one admits it or not, every living human being has a belief system of one sort or another. Even if one claims to believe in nothing, it is a belief nonetheless.

Perhaps it's like the saying about opinons... everyone has one and...

Nevertheless, although I may not agree with what I believe are serious miscalculations and interpretations about the nature of things by fundamentalist Christians, I do not deny their right to believe the way they do. Only problem though is that they do not reserve the same respect for my right to my beliefs... and even that is not a problem as long as it's just a case of their "feeling" that way about me. I don't care what they think of me.

Fundamentalist Christians, unfortunately, are not at all content to merely hold an opinion about you and me and the way we believe. It's not enough for them to not like it, but just go on their merry way anyway. No, not at all.

These people are right now in the process of launching a juggernaut of legislation that will eventually turn the laws of this land from the democracy we have enjoyed for over 200 years, to a theocracy that will dictate to you and me that we will believe and think a certain way or else. No one dares mention what the "else" might be, but if allowed to play out their "heaven on earth" fantasy, there will be much bloodshed, reminiscent of the Inquisition, perhaps?

Fundies are scary... and they are just a hair's breadth from completely controlling the levers of this government. You too should be afraid.

[Skidmore]

187. I was raised in a fundamentalist church

and the contempt in which I hold this belief system now I cannot even put into words. I would never return to that paranoid self-serving cluster of beliefs based on misinterpreted sections of the Bible in this lifetime.

[mmonk]

189. Well

if fundamentalists want to call me a "papist", then why don't I have the right to call them "fundies"? Free speech.

[mrgorth]

192. The names are internet slang

it takes a lot longer to type fundamentalist and Christian than fundy and Xtian. People on web board usually take short cuts like this. Many of us are Christians. I'm Catholic. Mostly, when people complain about Xtians it's not people like us they're complaining about, it's the hypocrites.

[tarheel]

193. I think the "disdain"

that you perceive here is not a matter of anyone wishing to supress Christianity, but rather a belief that the extreme fundemental faction of Christianity that has seized the conservative political structure in this country has no right attempting to legislate Christianity on the population.

You may not feel that that is what is happening in America, but make no mistake about it, that is precisely what they are attempting to do.In my mind, this makes them no better that the Taliban and other theocratic tyranical governments.

Let me state for the record that I also am a Christian ( Although I do not prescribe to any particular formal organized version of it as most people recognize it. My faith and my relationship to God are a very personal and private matter to me.)

I have no problem with anyone publicly stating their beliefs and their wish to see me find the same spiritual contentment that they have found. I think Jesus was the ultimate example of this. He told "and" showed us how to live the kind of life that God would have us lead.

But I adamantly disagree with our government enacting statutes that enforce the morals or values of any religion upon the American public through the force of law and threat of punishment. That is strictly forbidden by our constitution.

I believe that as long as someone's lifestyle is not harming someone else or depriving them of their rights, then they should be free to follow their own path. I may disagree with that path and if asked I would volunteer my opinions, but I never recall anywhere in the bible where Jesus advocated forcing God's will upon anyone. God knows that forced obedience and submission to his will is useless and voids any true relationship that you might have with him. That is what free will is all about.

If you don't like strip clubs, don't patronize them. If you don't think doing drugs is right, don't do them. If you believe homosexuality is wrong, don't practice it. This is how I live my life.
But I don't want anyone forcing these beliefs on me or anyone else by threatening me with incareration or other penalties and I certainly don't want them doing it supposedly in my name as an elected representative.

[DaveSZ]

195. Yes

We've seen what happens in other Fundamentalist countries such as Iran, and we don't want that to happen to America.

That's the bottom line.

[union_maid]

194. The word "Christian" has been hijacked

Right along with the flag. Fundamentalists also don't bother to type or to say, "Fundamentalist,born again, evangelical Christian." In conversation and informal writing, they just say, "Christian". That doesn't include Catholics or mainstream Christians who don't believe in free grace or their version of a personal relationship with Jesus. It doesn't include mainstream Protestant churches that don't claim to have the whole truth and preach respect for others. I've been told by some of them that the very mainstream Methodist church I grew up in would not be considered Christian by their standards, and it probably wouldn't. When I hear someone say the they're a Christian these days, I'm hearing a buzzword for intolerance, willful ignorance and a desire to impose a very particular set of beliefs on others. Most people that I know who are involved with organized Christian religion and do not deserve that description tend to identify themselves by sect: Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc. I'm sorry. That's just the way it's been for the last couple of decades. They took the word. They're the ones you should complain to.

[LoZoccolo]

197. I don't think anyone here is talking about the practical angle.

We are all here as Democrats. The Republican Party seems to think it has a lock on evangelical Christians (it doesn't - 39% are Democrats). There have been a bunch of evangelical Christians on this message board who complain about stereotypes being applied to them.

What I've always wondered is why would anyone want to alienate that contingent on our board? Like what practical purpose could it possibly serve? To me, all I see is people chasing some of the only people that could help break this lock that the Republican Party thinks it has on the other people in their churches and what-not. There is no sensical reason to be doing this. People say like "well this is my opinion, I'm expressing my feelings" but this place exists as a community around certain values and goals; it's really not here for you to get your rage-jollies, especially when it's completely counterproductive to what we're trying to do. There are a lot of political issues here people could talk about about the separation of church and state which could be informative to people of faith who could go back and have an impact on the people they go to church with - it is strategically senseless to alienate them here.

[QC]

217. There is little interest in practical politics here.

I know it's hard to believe, but there was a time when this was a great place to get the latest news and talk strategy for getting the Democrats back in power.

Now, about three-quarters of what is posted here deals with things like how much better we are than mere sheeple, how stupid the so-called sheeple are, OMG!! A freeper just said something mean!!!, who is insufficiently pure to be a real Democrat and therefore must be purged (Southerners, religious people, people who own guns, etc.), and the like.

Somewhere along the way we went from being a great discussion board to being a chatroom.

[LoZoccolo]

218. Yes, a lot of masturbatory, two-minutes hate type-of posts.

I keep tossing the idea around in my head to just have like 20 or 40 or 80 people on ignore and building up this real slick, streamlined version of DU that I'd call "my DU". Because when you do find good posts here, they tend to be really good. Some people really do their homework.

[QC]

219. It used to be a lot easier to find those who do their homework.

Not so much anymore. And I tried using ignore, but it really didn't help much, because so many people felt compelled to respond often and at great length to the flamebait that the flamebait still ended up dominating the discussion.

[charlie105]

198. Amen! to that my friend. Well said.

I'm a practicing Christian and proud of it. But I never let it dictate who I vote for. My decision would be based on what's good for me, my family, the community I live in and the environment. And as of this day, would make me vote for a Democrat.
I strongly believe that Christianity is strong enough to survive on its own and does not need legislation or constitutional amendments for survival.

[natrat]

200. ok forget the name calling

fundamentalists of any stripe make me very uncomfortable with their arrogance. It's gotten to the point now that I think religion is a load of shit and is offensive to me.

[Stuckinthebush]

204. My Presbyterian Minister father says....

Call 'em fundies - call 'em loonies - call them what you will, but don't call them Christians. They have bastardized everything good and decent and loving about the Christian faith.

You see, most people on this board respect Christians and Christianity, but despise the Talibanized Fundamentalist Christians. For good reason.

The two must be distinguished from one another.

[monobrau]

206. evolve or die

Fundamentalism is a disease, regardless of religious affiliation.
It is a cancer on the human race; a mutation that hinders human evolution.
It has no place in an enlightened, engaged society, as it is anti-human, anti-intellectual, and contains the seed for most of the hatred and bigotry in the world.
Go to church and speak in tongues, handle snakes, and roll around on the floor all you want. Just keep it out of my government and my life.

[RetroLounge]

207. I'm sorry if The term "fundy" is offensive

from now on I will only refer to them as:

The American Taliban.

or maybe,

The Talibornagain?

Is that better for you?

RL

[Mike Niendorff]

224. personally, I'm not at all sorry.

In fact, I *hope* those whack-jobs are offended by it.

AFAIC, today's fundamentalists are no different from yesterday's Pharisees. They are self-righteous frauds. Jesus referred to such people as "vipers", "hypocrites", and "whitewashed tombs". He wasn't particularly worried about offending their oh-so-tender sensibilities, and neither am I. If the truth bothers them, well, too bad.


MDN

[callous taoboy]

208. Religion

should be kept personal. If you come proselytizing, you have earned the right to have me verbally harangue you mercilessly.

[mzmolly]

209. I am a Progressive Christian, and when I say *fundie* I am referring to

those that twist my religion to commit murder and social injustice. I have great contempt for them.

visit here.

http://www.tcpc.org/

[Perky]

212. Fundies can be Democrats too!

I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. But I will never vote for a Republican.

Also kindly stop lumping Mr Graham in with Falwell., Billy steadfastly stays out of partisan politics or even the abortion debate. His foucs is on evangelism alone. And has been quietly opposed to the Fallwell/Robertson types fince they emerged in the mid-1980s

[rocktivity]

215. It's not your particular religion that makes you a fundie,

but what you do with it. Fundamentalism is misuse of your religion no matter who does it. It should not become synomous with one religion on particular.

:headbang:
rocknation

[daveskilt]

228. right on - I go to church a lot - cant stand fundy pricks nt

[jsw_81]

226. Sorry, I call them fundies

And their primitive, idiotic, violent "beliefs" are NOT worthy of any respect.

[serryjw]

229. Leave MY country alone!

I am one of the most tolerant people I know. :grouphug:As a straight woman I volunteer frequently at a GAY Church. I help celebrate at their dinner party last week the legalization of Marriage in Mass.
I seldom use the words BUT I wish the 'other side' would leave my Constitution alone! We have a wall between Church and State and I want to keep it that way. You can worship anyway you desire BUT I wish the pulpit would not ask the followers to NOT take communion IF they vote for a leader whom is pro-choice.I wish MY government would stop with their hateful world view on supporting Sharon/Israel at the expence of millions of Muslims.....and I wish Bushit would stop wrapping himself in the bible and bombing :nuke:other countries!
Thanks for posting the question....I now feel better.:pals:

[Moderator]

231. Locking.

I'd like to applaud the many of you who've kept this a relatively productive and even discussion while it was, but the thread has degenerated to far too many personal attacks, broad brush and insensitive statements.