The darkest reality of the war in Iraq

[ck4829]

The first Gulf war gave us Timothy McVeigh. I'm kind of scared to think what demented psychopaths this war will bring back to our homes. We already know that some of the soldiers are becoming quite horrific and like to take pleasure in dealing pain. What are we going to do when those people come home? We don't know how they are all mentally feeling, and this war could prove much, much more dangerous than we previously thought.

[boobooday]

1. The first Gulf War also gave us the Washington Sniper

Because these people are exploited and then just discarded, left to live with everything they saw and did and breathed and had injected into them.

Support our troops my ass. If they were such troop supporters, then a large portion of our homeless wouldn't be veterans.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[indigobusiness]

2. The legacy of the war will continue in the homeland...

just as it did after Viet Nam. The bloody pathology that killing cultivates sows a bitter crop and yields a sad harvest.

[Jacobin]

3. I was thinking that the other day

We'll get the ricochet from people who have become crazed with killing, carnage and torture.

We've cooked up a witches brew of mass murder's, thugs and rapists who will descend on us like a plague of locusts when they return home.

[mike1963]

7. cicadas, not locusts! Didn't you see Letterman? They only emerge when

Repugs are in office!
:D
:evilgrin:

[Postman]

4. the psychopaths are in the White House...

and the Pentagon and State Department.

[drb]

5. Easy answer!

Hire them as guards for when all the neo-cons are arrested as "enemy combatants" and imprisoned without trail or legal contact whatsoever. Purchase extra broomsticks.

[indigobusiness]

6. Or elect them to govt...

"Senator Psychopath, your table is ready"

Would change little.

[saigon68]

12. Light sticks and toilet bowl HANDLES

tO ANALLY RAPE 15 YEAR OLD children

[bobbieinok]

8. what about all those returning Afghan war vets who killed their wives??

[saigon68]

16. Series of Slayings Shakes Fort Bragg

Friday, July 26, 2002


FORT BRAGG, N.C. — The military is investigating the murders of four Fort Bragg soldiers’ wives, all of whom were apparently killed by their husbands in the last six weeks.In three of the cases, the husbands who investigators say killed their wives were special operations servicemen who had been stationed in Afghanistan. Two soldiers apparently committed suicide after murdering their wives.

The string of family deaths started June 11. Fayetteville police said that was when Sgt. 1st Class Rigoberto Nieves — a soldier in the 3rd Special Forces Group who had been back from Afghanistan just two days — shot his wife, Teresa, and then himself in their bedroom.


Sheriff's investigators said Jennifer Wright was strangled June 29. Her husband, Master Sgt. William Wright of the 96th Civil Affairs Battalion, reported her missing two days later. Then on July 19, he led investigators to her body in Hoke County and was charged with murder. Wright, who had been back from Afghanistan for about a month, had moved out of his house and was living in the barracks.

On the same day that Wright was arrested, Sgt. 1st Class Brandon Floyd shot his wife, Andrea, then killed himself in their Stedman home.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,58811,00.html

edit I hate Faux they have the best link though :-(

[freepersia]

9. What do you all think..

Hey all - I just want to know if you support the will of the Iranian people to be free from the Mullahs who are currently in power and are being supported by the Europeans, Chinese, Russians by exploiting their resources, imprisoning, murdering and torturing thousands of Iranians -

What do you all think?

[countmyvote4real]

11. This should be in its own thread.

Welcome to DU.

[freepersia]

13. I can't post in my own thread..

It's not letting me create a topic since I'm a new user..

[Jacobin]

14. Maybe you could sign up with the infantry

and lead the charge to overthrow the leaders of Iran.

:-)

Lots of countries in Africa need to have regime change too. Check out a map and write your congresscritters.

I'm sure they'd be thrilled to use our treasure and troops to free the Africans from their nightmares.

[freepersia]

17. Thanks for the advice..

Thanks for the advice! :)

I tend to think that I am more productive without the fatigues and weapon doing other things that may help the American people and the people of the World.

I agree with you about Africa. Though as an Iranian/American I cannot help but focus on my other homeland, Iran. I have lost some friends and a family member to the regime in Iran only because they had political views, namely views of freedom of thought/religion/mobilizing that didn't mesh well with the regime in power. They were murdered in cold blood as were close to 100,000 Iranians over the past 25 years, especially shortly after Khomenei came into power as well as many assasinations throughout Europe and the Middle East throughout the 80s and early 90s. The sick part of it is is that the European countries allowed the assasins to get out of the country after the murders because Europe especially has very good relations with the Mullahs due to the wonderfully cheap oil that Britain, France, Germany - Russia and China too get from the exploitation of a population of 70 million Iranians who are some of the brightest if not the most sympathetic people to the US in the whole of the MIddle East - and instead what does the US do? Well - we don't really support the Iranian people and instead we think we can deal with Iraq as though it exists in a vaccum.. That is untrue - completely. All issues are interrelated and if we think we can establish something that looks like a free and democratic society in Iraq and that the Mullahs or the Saudis or Syrians are going to be okay with that then we're smoking some serious crack..

Hopefully the Iranian people will be able to take matters in their own hands because they have learned over the years they cannot depend on the West for help - since the West has created much of the problems that currently exist.. I'm not going to sit here and waste time blaming the US or this or that politicians because it is no use. ALL I SAY - is we need a new policy that first admits mistakes of the past, another policy that all americans can sign up to, that works for long-term goals, not short-term self-interested ones and that revolves around Freedom. Freedom in the United States, Freedom in Europe - Freedom in The Middle East..

I hope many of you can stand with me in support of a 'Free Iran'. Not support of Bush or support of any politicians. But support of 70 million people who are literally dieing on the streets in their battle against the regime... There are clashes everyday but the media doesn't air any of it because they are all in bed with everyone and their sister.. The media is in bed with US gov, EU govs, Mullahs Gov, etc.. etc.. it's all messed up, just KNOW that the Iranian people are fighting bravely and fighting for freedom!!.. and supporting their will to be free. We don't need military action, we need to support freedom and that doesn't mean bombing..

I Stand In Unity With All My Fellow Americans,
FreePersia

[thebigidea]

18. you sound like just the sort of soldier we need

i suggest signing up and joining the Wolfowitz brigade.

[freepersia]

19. Uhh Actually

Actually I don't like Wolfowitz at all - and also would never advocated a military option with regards to Iran.. AT ALL - Any military response would greatly greatly mess up any hope to help the Iranian people free themselves..

Anyhow - why are you so intent upon me joining the Army? Can I not have a viewpoint that advocates supporting people who long to be free without being a soldier or a wolfowitz lover?

Thanks,
FreePersia

[thebigidea]

24. There's always the Richard Perle Squadron

they're looking for a few good combovers.

[freepersia]

28. Right..

Right... I'm talking about American people supporting the Iranian people - none of this NeoCon blah blah blah talk.. just straight moral support - increase publicity.. do what we can to help the Iranian people and watch the fruits of our work materialize.. this is a nonpartisan issue folks..

[thebigidea]

29. the best way we could help Iran would be to leave it the fuck alone

everything Bush touches, he destroys.

[freepersia]

20. ...Also

Also - I encourage anyone in this forum to actually engage in discussion re: What is the best policy to develop in regard to the Iranian people and the Middle East as awhole instead of these little one-liners like join the Wolfowitz brigade.. come on - lets discuss!

[thebigidea]

23. the best policy would be to send those that are keen on it over there

the rest of us can stay here and enjoy things like summer, lemonade, and freedom from crazed world domination schemes.

You take point! I'll cover you. Really. Honestly now. I'll be right behind you. Cough.

If you notice, we don't have a good track record for bringing freedom any where, much less our own backyard. Thinking the USA will somehow help Iran be "free" is fucking delusional.

[freepersia]

30. Actually..

Actually it's not delusional and yes I wholeheartedly agree that the "WEST" in general, since the "WEST" has been in position of power throughou history have made many many many short-sighted blunders that have cause quite serious long-term problems. But what do we do about it is the question? Sure - I have no problem taking a gun and fighting for the freedom of my Iranian brethren - but what I am saying it's not q eustion of this or that.. the bottomline is will the American people stand with the Iranian people once we all realize how important a 'Free Iran' is to not only the future of the Middle East but the future of the world.. Iran is the issue and Iraq can only be solved when the Mullahs are neutralized.. once again - not neutralized through military since that is impossible externally unless there is an internal coup - but essentially the Iranian people need to overthrow the regime themselves.. HOWEVER - it would definitely help if the American public was strongly in support of them and Against the regime!!

[thebigidea]

32. go "neutralize the Mullahs" yourself, leave me and my family out of it

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

36. Exhibit A) Iraq. The US is now out of the "Freedom" game.

Give my condolences to Mister Kristol.

[freepersia]

39. no discussion with you!

Okay - I guess I can't have a discussion with you.. not a big loss..
;)

[thebigidea]

42. you want a discussion? Well, this is the room for an argument.

That was never 5 minutes just now.

[freepersia]

46. 5 min?

Sorry - 5 min? confused? -
'night

[thebigidea]

48. That's right, that was never five minutes just now.

You want discussions, that's down the hall. This is arguments. Do you have a problem with that? Then you want complaints, that's on the 2nd floor, near the Project for a New American Century offices. You can try to get some freedom there, but I hear its tainted. Oh! My!

Look! The cat just ate what's left of the freedom!

So, no sorry - we don't seem to have any freedom for Iran today. We MAY have freedom for Syria, but you'll have to ask me nicely - and I can't quite guarentee it, freedom for Syria is NOT exactly very popular round these parts.

[uncle ray]

55. uh, do you realize

this persons handle is freepersia...as in free persia, not freeper sia? you seem to think you're arguing with a freeper.

great job you're doing showing how the rest of americans are not like bush. /sarcasm

[thebigidea]

58. You seem to think I don't know.

What do I know? Not much. But that doesn't stop me.

I'm glad I've been chosen by you to represent America to furriners and the like, I pledge to do as good a job as Bush in doing so, if not better. They hate us for my freedom.

[freepersia]

60. hey shit..

Ohh crap - what's a freeper anyways? anyhow - maybe the admin could rename my handle to FreePersia or something.. anyhow - thanks for the heads up!

'later

[freepersia]

57. wow..

okay - we'll talk later.. thanks for the sarcasm!

[thebigidea]

61. we'll talk later? Is that a promise... or a threat?

I wish you the best of luck in drumming up support for the spread of freedom. With a bit of luck, wellmeaning patriots can spread freedom like a cheap venereal disease, at light speeds!

But beware, for freedom has sharp teeth... and sticky fingers. Freedom often comes with electrical implements alligator-clipped to tender testicle-flesh.

[freepersia]

64. It's a...

It's a promise!!!!

[NNN0LHI]

34. We could neutralize the Mullahs and install a new Shah of Iran

Do you think that might help?

Don

[freepersia]

37. No..

Nope - not at all.. It's called "FREE REFERENDUM"

Allow the Iranians to decide if they want Republic or Monarchy - and let it all be determined in a free and fair referendum..

[NNN0LHI]

40. You don't seem to understand

Why go through all the hassles of elections when the USA can just pick some nice friendly dictator who will be happy to fill the void. Iran's got oil. I am sure we can work something out. Trust us.

Don

[freepersia]

43. You forget something..

You see the Iranian population is highly savvy both politically and every other spectrum. They are by far one of the most educated and pro-freedom populations in the Middle East and so they will simply not allow some stupid bullshit puppet. They are also very united - unlike her in the United States where were are so damn divided which gives jackoffs easy access to office.. in Iran they are all United Against the Mullahs and once the Mullahs are gone they will be all United re: their future government... FREEDOM will rule period - that's just my view..

Thanks for your input though - I like to discuss as long as it's civil discussion..

Hey - take care, time to hit the sack!
FreePersia!

[NNN0LHI]

47. Its been really nice talking to you, and welcome to DU too

Sleep well my friend.

Don

[freepersia]

52. thanks!!

Thanks - unforutnatley it's really really bad storm, so sleeping with dogs freaking out isn't the easiest thing, but hey - i'll try..

Take care and thanks again for the welcome!

[thebigidea]

44. We should bless Iran with a Karzai or a Chalabi

[NNN0LHI]

50. I really like your artwork tbi. You do have some real talent

Thanks for posting your stuff for all of us here. It is much appreciated. Take care for now.

Don

[thebigidea]

51. thankyou thankyou

Its fine therapy for me.

[freepersia]

54. Please no..

Absolutely NOT! :) NO NO NO NO

NO Chalabi for Iran no Karzai.. the Iranian people are fully capable of choosing who they want once the mafia dictatorship falls, which I know it wilL!!!!

[thebigidea]

63. what's wrong with Karzai? He's a well meaning MAN OF FREEDOM

They told me so. Women have FREEDOM there, they say. Freedom is sprouting everywhere, it grows intertwined with the opium poppies.

MMmm. Freedom. Wouldn't you like some of that sickly sweet Afghan-style freedom in Iran? Its fundamentally DELICIOUS!

[Kurovski]

41. Welcome to DU, FreePersia.

If the Bush Administration really wanted to bring Democracy to the Middle East, they would have figured out a way to tap into the the brilliant yearning for freedom that exists in Iran.

That, and stop supressing Saudi Arabia.

[freepersia]

45. I agree completely..

I agree completely with your point about the first one.. The Bush admin has failed utterly to support the notions, concepts and actions that will bring about true freedom in the Middle East - but still, that's not an excuse for Americans on the ground, the average citizenry to support the Iranian people in their struggle.. We should support it all the way - because ultimately the Government can make some laws and control some things, but we the people are very very very strong, especially when we are united..

Anyhow - about Saudis - I hate the royal families guts completely because they are so primative and backwards as are the fanatical mobsters who would likely take their place.. I think with Saudi Arabia I don't know that you can advocate a replacement of their gov/family - because who would fill the void - I think ultimately in every region of the middle east you need the people to fill the void created by the fall of fanatical ideologies and repressive systems, but the question is - what does the transition look like from the void to the replacement of that freedom filler..?

Each country is different.. As far as Iran goes - it's best to support the Iranian people - pressur ehte hell out of the Mullahs and the EU, Russia, China who support the Mullahs.. let the Iranian people know we support them and will not turn our backs on them - and I TELL YOU from my heart the Iranian people will take to the streets and remove the mullahs..

As far as Saudis - I think if Iran is free you can use that leverage to pressure the Saudis to reform reform reform -- it's the safest bet because the Al Quaeda types could haver a chance at office if you encourage a radical change there..

All in all - I agree with you, thanks for your comments!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NickB79]

26. That's what I thought too, but that might not be the true meaning

Freepersia says he/she is an Iranian-American. So, it makes sense as well to read it as FreePERSIA.

[freepersia]

31. I guess I wrote it wrong..

my bad, I guess I wrote it wrong.. Why, what does it mean or sound like the way it's written now?

Thanks -

[IranianDemocrat]

69. A freeper = a right wing nazi from the website www.freerepublic.com

Salam btw.

[freepersia]

71. Ahh I see..

Hmmm - now I know what you're talking about.. Anyhow - I don't tend to agree with right wing nazi, but hey - they call leftis left-wing fascists too.. So I guess the bottomline is that the name calling is useless and by name calling we isolate the majority who actually have more in common than we are currently led by the media and politicians to believe.. in the words of Rodney King - can't we all just "Get along" ;)

[sandnsea]

21. It's called engaged diplomacy

We ought to try it some time.

"Iran's pledge came after German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer flew to Tehran together with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw and French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin to try to persuade Iran to comply with an October 31 deadline to fully disclose its nuclear programme to the IAEA...

Fischer referred to the successful talks as "very frank and difficult". "This is a major opportunity the country should not miss," Fischer said...

The results of their trip demonstrate the success of a strategy of cooperation, Schröder said...

U.S. President George W. Bush called the agreement "a very positive development" and thanked the British, French and German foreign ministers for taking a “strong common message” to the Iranians that they should disarm..."

http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/politics/new/pol_iran_euro_10_2003.html

[freepersia]

27. Sure - let me explain the EU methodology..

Let me explain for you what this means in a very simple way. The EU goes back and fourth to Iran just to get enough concessions as so appear to the rest of the world that LOOKS the Mullahs are doing some "Big Steps" in the right direction and look the EU actually is working for some sort of solution.. All the EU is doing is trying to keep the Mullahs in power and keep the US off the Mullahs backs.. Just look at it.. it's so obvious.. The EU always talks about look there will be reform in Iran, etc.. etc... Reform in Iran is a pipe dream, there is no such things.. There were absolutely fake elections this past year - 1000 more times as messed up as American elections.. So next time you see EU going to Iran to sit and drink tea with the Mullahs know that they are only giving advice to the Mullahs on how to stay in power, how to maintain their stranglehold on the country and how to keep getting that cheap oil.. And if you want to equate this with that US does with Saudis isn't unequatable because the alternative at least currently the Saudi family is much much worse than the scumbags in office now.. The altertnative to the MULLAHS is a Free Iran that is very pro-US and pro-FREEDOM and they are also highly anti-fanatic.. What better ally in the so-called "war on terror"..

you see it's a lot deeper than supporting some jerkoff American Politicians or candidate.. they for the most part are all garbage except for a few noble politicians / congressmen and women.. for the most part a kerry and bush are the same.. It's best to bush the issues and not rely on a president or party to do a damn thing.. they won't.

[sandnsea]

77. War or Diplomacy

Those are the choices. We've made the mistake of marginalizing countries and seeing them turn into dangerous closed societies like N Korea. When you open up communication, trade, cultural exchange; that gives those citizens the power to push for more change from within. It's not as fun as "shock and awe", but it's a hell of alot more effective in the long run. That's what happened to the USSR, the need for information and trade to keep their economy functioning. With the right kind of diplomatic pressure, it'll happen in the ME too.

[freepersia]

78. Unfortunately..

Unfortunately if Iranians and you or I or the world in general are to look at how the Mullahs for example have been dealt with over the years we see that the US has not traded with the regime, but the Europeans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Everyone and their uncle have traded with the Mullahs - but there has been very little if any REFORM. Of course the Mullahs trading partners claim that "reform" of the current regime is possible, but most people who look objectively at the current situation know in their heart of hearts that you cannot reform the regime of Mullahs - it's essentially a pipe dream. EU has continued traded with Mullahs and Mullahs still crack down full force on the population. You see, the Mullahs are so violent, so brutal and so controlling because if they start to loosen up one bit, their whole stronghold on the population would collapse. You see, the Mullahs must control absolutely and so that is why they won't give really any freedoms - of course here and there they will create some joke examples and some news media propoganda so that Reuters or AFP can say ohh look reform is possible, elections weren't as bad as everyone's saying, etc..

It's all a game.

So - I do agree wiht you that communication, trade, cultural exchange are important but I must warn you, that with a population that is overwhelmingly already on our side (US) that you can't suddently renew all trade with regime, open and public communication - because you see, in the eyes of Iranians, this will look to them as though the United States, there one real hope in the world has become what the Europeans have done - they will think, and rightly so, that the US is condoning the regime and not giving a damn about the people. Unless Iran is free the United States should not trade with the Mullahs a damn bit - we should have communication with Iranians/ASBOLUTELY - but just with the Iranian people and we must bypass the government as to enforce the fact that it is illegitmate.

Listen - The mullahs are illegal completely.. They have no right to be in power.. There was no real election.. and their time is coming. The question is, who is going to stand with the Iranian people? Will it be the EU countries who are continuing to trade with the Mullah which hasn't made Irnaians any more free.. Will it be the United States who, still in the eyes of some throughout the world, is the shining symbol of freedom - although we screw up so often that we are really beginning to lose political capital in that arena?


Anyhow - my two sense..
adios

[Bridget Burke]

35. The Iranian people are trying to deal with it themselves.

There are elections. The mullahs & the military rule, but many Iranians want to liberalize things.

We installed the Shah & screwed Iran royally in the last century. We definitely don't need to "unite" the country with an illegal invasion.

I think that anybody who wants to start another war now should go away. That's just what I think.

[freepersia]

38. yah I don't remember..

#1 - I don't remember advocating a war FIRST and FOREMOST. I advocate full political, financial and moral support for the Iranian Freedom movement inside and outside of Iran.

#2 - politicall encourage and push the EU, Russia and China to drop support for the Mullahs - which of course they WON'T do because when Iran becomes free it will be allied with the United States which means no more exploitation and big big oil deals for the EU and their buddies and means a major shift in power and long-term benefits for the United States.

#3 We actually, along with Europe (BRITISH, FRENCH, GERMANS) screwed IRAN royally by overthrowing the Shah and putting the Ayatollahs in power.. Well essentially this was done by the Europeans, but the US was rather shall I say complacent about the whole matter due to the fact that the shah had hiked oil prices and the US new buddy in the Middle East could become the fanatical Royal Family. (I believe this shift in alliance is one of the major blunders in recent history and if had not occured much of the BS that's going on in the Middle East could have been avoided - but hey, the past is the past - lets march forward)

#4 We need to unite the country (US) in general. This division between left and right will KILL THIS COUNTRY - doesn't anyone see it? Yes of course people disagree about issues here and there, but we have all been manipulated into thinking the differences are so vast that it is useless to discuss and talk and therefore we create extremist notions of patriotism such as LEFT and RIGHT and blah blah blah, it's all a joke and it actually benefits those who want to make loads and loads of money off the citizens..

Lets just UNITE PERIOD - or at least become more objective with our thinking and less extremist.. Anyhow - I was raised to analyze issue by issue rather than lumping myself into one group and saying - okay, because I'm in this group I now have to agree with all this and defend this group.. Come on - we are all Americans, lets work out issues UNITED because as many have said - DIVIDED we surely fall..

There are no elections in Iran okay - all elections are aploy setup by the Mullahs and the EU and the media is complicit in the ordeal. Farming and rural Iranians are bussed into the cities and paid to occupy the voting booths, Iranians ALL STAYED iNSIDE - about 5% of the population voted and the majority of those were forced to vote because army must vote and others were forced because if they don't vote they can lose job or gov position, or be kicked out of school..

Listen - it is very simple.. The mullahs are extremely oppressive - worst than saddam ever was..

The EU and other nations currently are working their behinds off to keep them in power.

US is being complacent as hell in support of the Iranian people. I don't know if it's because we've made a deal with the Brits or the Saudis not to overthrow the Mullahs - who knows..

Ultimately it will rest in the hands of the Iranian people .. If they all come into the streets it will be IMPOSSIBLE to stop them and then Iran will be free.. Unfortunately the less help Iranians get from the US and Americans the bloodier any change will be, but read my words - CHANGE WILL HAPPEN!!!!

[indigobusiness]

53. I think that is THEIR business, Frepersia

Sovereign countries don't need daddy countries to bomb them into prosperity.

[freepersia]

59. I agreee but that isn't what I said..

I agree with you, but thats' not what i said --- I AM AGAINST ANY AND ALL BOMBS - refer back to what I said:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1652743&mesg_id=1653501&page=

[indigobusiness]

62. My mistake, I'm getting a little bleary.

I think your name threw me...as much as I like it.

ia makes a world of difference.

[IranianDemocrat]

67. Salam freepersia!

Welcome to DU!

About your question:

The only way to insure a TRUE democracy in Iran is if ONLY Iranians overthrow the gov't wothout any outside assistance or war. If the U.S. attacks iran it is a lose/lose situation.

[freepersia]

68. I agree completely..

I agree completely.... This is the only logical way.. Iranians don't want a military invasion - jesus.. they want real support in other ways ..

Thanks for your support btw!!!!

[loyalsister]

10. I agree

I've been saying these guys were "Milgramed."
One very important factor in the Milgram study was that when the overseer told the "teacher" that they should continue, they also told them they would take responsibility. I really wonder what the guys who aren't going to be prosecuted told the soldiers as they gave them orders.

<Stanley Milgram>

Stanley Milgram is a pioneer in psychology who is most remembered for his work with obedience to authority. He was highly interested in the reasons why the average person would submit to obedience through an authority figure although he/she knew that he/she was harming an innocent third party. This research was prompted by the events of the Holocaust and later the Nuremberg Trials in which Eichmann, an infamous nazi, supported his actions of genocide as simply following orders.
......Milgram councluded that the following factors could help explain the situation at Mi Lai. Military training sets apart soldiers from all others to prevent competition with authorities outside the military. The period of basic training is largely used to breakdown the concepts of individuals and create cohesion in the group or unit. During this time the soldiers spend a large majority of their time being disciplined during which they are virtually brainwashed into following orders without question. This is indeed the very function of a soldier. Political differences were used for the justification of actions and to differentiate the two sides (U.S. and North Vietnam). This combined with the trump card of race, which was used as the catalyst,depersonalized the actions of combat. The soldiers involved with this massacre felt that they were simply following orders and it was their duty to do so because it was dictated by their "authority" figure. This undoubtedly sounds similar to that of Eichman's reasoning.

Milgram has noted reoccurring themes (as found in Obedience to Authority) in these specific incidents as well as others. People who are doing a job as instructed by an administrative figure are following the instructions of that administrative outlook and not the outlook of a moral code. The feelings of duty and personal emotion are clearly separated. Responsibility shifts in the mind of the subordinate from himself/herself to the authority figure. There is a well defined purpose behind the actions or goals of the authority, and the subordinate is depended upon to help and meet those goals. Milgram has this to say about these factors and findings from his study, "The results, as seen and felt in the laboratory, are to this author disturbing. They raise the possibility that human nature, or -more specifically-the kind of character produced in American society, cannot be counted on to insulate the citizens from brutality and inhumane treatment at the direction of malevolent authority."

http://members.tripod.com/mikeg531/MikeG531.htm

"The feelings of duty and personal emotion are clearly separated."
This is an important element of being a part of war. They do what they can to detach themselves emotionally in order to survive. A person is in a world that they do not want to experience personally. At some point, they realize they were there, and they begin to question where duty ended in relation to their personal morality. This is a terrible thing to have to live with, I'll not judge.

[wishlist]

22. Deprogramming (including no Fox news or RW radio) is essential

I noticed that my local VA Hospital has just put up a large new modular building on a grassy lawn with a sign that simply says just: MENTAL HEALTH

Good timing

[spooked]

25. These boys ARE NOT coming home.

That's the sad part.

[Columbia]

49. We're already here

[indigobusiness]

56. You are? Well, welcome home...

Can I get you anything?

[Columbia]

65. Thanks.

Just don't spit on me please. :)

[indigobusiness]

66. Not a chance...

Seriously, how are your dreams?

[Columbia]

70. Strange

I had this one the other night where Michael Moore came over and we hung out together...

[indigobusiness]

72. So nothing haunts you?

You didn't see much of the horror show?

[Columbia]

73. Some things do

I wonder what happened to the Iraqi friends I made over there. I hope they are doing well and have found well-paying jobs and are safe with their families.

I've had a pretty easy time blocking out the really bad things so I've been doin' ok.

[indigobusiness]

74. You are one of the lucky ones...

at least for now.

[Columbia]

76. Yes

For now... dun dun dun...

[indigobusiness]

75. EVERYBODY SHOULD READ THIS

Scary Herbert article: America being led by an Evil Force?


"There's a terrible sense of dread filtering across America at the moment and it's not simply because of the continuing fear of terrorism and the fact that the nation is at war. It's more frightening than that. It grows out of the suspicion that we all may be passengers in a vehicle that has made a radically wrong turn and is barreling along a dark road, with its headlights off and with someone behind the wheel who may not know how to drive."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/24/opinion/24HERB.html

[Karenina]

79. America is a violent society...

[indigobusiness]

80. We should just pull the Army out of Iraq ..Send in the Girl Scouts...

Ply Iraq with cookies...

The way to winning their hearts and minds is through their stomachs.