"We are in a Civil War.." "We can't afford to be nice." How true.

[madfloridian]

This is from a friend who recently had a meeting with Howard Dean in CA. As I see the news about the pending terror attack, keeping us fearful....and as I remember Tommy Franks words about military rule....I have no doubt that Dean is correct on this issue.

SNIP..."WE ARE IN A CIVIL WAR” says Howard, “and we can’t afford to be nice.” “Stop being nice. YOU DO NOT COMPROMISE WITH THE RIGHT WING” he says, in answer to a girl on my right who wants to know how to “dialog” with the right wing wackos. Tell it, brother! What we must do, he says, is integrate politics into our daily life. Run for Office. Work for someone who does. Make it happen. Keep the grassroots alive. Just as with the Dean campaign, send volunteers to the battleground states. Win this thing, stop complaining about the democratic machine, and just go do it. We can keep the fight alive, we have the framework, and he will be there for us."END SNIP

[w13rd0]

1. LOVE that...

...indeed, stop being nice, because it just gets us walked on, and slowly absorbed by benedict arnold's like Al From and Zell Miller. F'k them. Didn't Rumsfeld say something about "you can't dialogue with religious extremists, you have to kill them". I'm not advocating killing anyone, but the RW loons need to be aware that some of us KNOW there is no "dialogue" to be had with them, and we'll give no mercy or quarter...

[Chicago Democrat]

3. Public Protests, Internet Activism, Letters to Editor are all

appropriate places to vent. Love your neighbor. Treat everyone like you would like to be treated. Mostly be kind to everyone.

[Chicago Democrat]

2. Uncompromise on issues... LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

I am surrounded by Right Wing Republicans. They know I'm a Democrat and that's all. I am practicing loving them and being very respectful. We all are losing the war; they are as upset about it as me. We all have to live together after this is over. Just by being a good neighbor and showing compassion we can have great effect on our neighbors.

I would suggest avoiding any political talk. Try to find other things to bind, like gardening and local things. Show respect mostly and be kind.

[madfloridian]

5. Dean is referring to being nice in politics....not to your neighbor.

Of course we are all in this together. He is talking about far more than just being nice to your neighbor. My neighbors are mostly Southern fundamentalists, and I do NOT avoid talking with them about issues. I disagree and I say so. That is still my right for now.

We can not just hide away and be nice. That is my issue. Most have seen my letters to the editors which espouse my positions, so they are not confrontational.

[VOX]

6. Wise words, CD. In the end, we will all have to live together...

A few weeks ago, our older neighbors took my wife and me out for brunch. At a certain point in the conversation, one neighbor began alluding to "liberals," but we didn't take the bait. We just steered the discussion in another direction.

My wife and I were disappointed that this near-incident occurred, but overall, we had a good time.

[rabid_nerd]

13. I am in the Gettysburg area

and the gloves are off. This year will be the harshest campaign local candidates have seen.

Dean should come here and say that so we can support his Gettysburg Address.

[madfloridian]

20. You should post that at the blog, rabid.

:hi:

[rabid_nerd]

37. perhaps...

but not yet... ;)

[Chicago Democrat]

4. Civil war? Its just politics. Not War ...War implies violence.

amoung the people.

[w13rd0]

7. Does it?

You better get off some letters quick.

War on Poverty
War on Illiteracy
War on Drugs (well, some parts)
War on Fat

Hell, the use of the term WAR to apply to struggles is more overused in the US than the use of the term Jihad to apply to a struggle in the Middle East...

[bloom]

8. I think it's like the cold war....

and there are threats of violence.

[tom_paine]

10. Where have you been? We are inching ever closer to the real thing

When the means of Peaceful Change are gradually (and not so gradually) removed, well, what other option do people have but the Colonial Option.

On so many levels, often while we slumbered peacefully, Bushevik Monsters were parasitizing and termiting the very system we depend on to keep us happy and civil (pun intended).

Now, the Voice of the People has been in many cases edited out. Media, judiciary, electoral systems, extreme gerrymandering...the list goes on and on.

It is not the philsophical diagreements that upset me, it is the willful destruction of the system for personal/political gain that has become painfully evident.

It is THAT to which Dean is referring.

watch. The last time we had a Ruler* this bad was 1929. The whole nation flopped hugely to the Democratic Party.

Bunnypants* isn't as bad as Hoover on the economy (not by much), he's worse on everything else.

I believe more and more moderates are turing against the Imperial Family.

And yet...I am uncertain whether Kerry will even be allowed to win (he will have to overcome 5-10% automatic deficit incurred by Jeb Crow Tactics, IMHO), and I have absolutely no belief (though I am working my ass off to make it happen in case I am wrong) that the House or Senate would switch control due to Jeb Crow and Extreme Gerrymandering.

If you think this is "just politics" you haven't been paying very much attention.

It's WAAAAAYYYYY beyond politics now.

[madfloridian]

11. Thank you so much for getting what it is about.

Thanks. :hi:

[TankLV]

45. You are assuming that they also play by the rules - THEY DON"T!

We play nice and they play dirty - and they win!

They started this crap, they can be the first to go back to "playing nice".

This is a serious struggle - and we can play nice from the comming concentration camps if we follow your ideas.

THIS IS WAR! A WAR THEY STARTED, AND BY GOD WE WILL FINISH!

If you turn the other cheek too many times, you run out of cheeks.

They invented these new rules - stealing the presidency in 2000, sending in brownshirts from Delay's office to stop the recount - and they re-arraged the playbook to gerrymander a second and third time WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE IN HISTORY!.

They see no conflict of interest and when they rule in their own favor - "what a cooincidence"!

Your suggestions is the suggestion of the VICHY FRENCH - you don't negotiate with monsters and NAZI's.

[Greenbeard]

54. Prevent a Civil War. Share your beliefs with others.

Unfortunately we have reached a point in this current political struggle that could easily be labeled a "War" of ideals. At the moment this conflict is peaceful and for the sake of the nation and the rest of the world let us hope it remains peaceful. But please do not be fooled. The questions we face are huge and they will have major impacts on society. In this new age of globalism the choices we make effect millions. The answers to the problems our previous generations have created for us will not be easy to solve but they MUST be solved and soon. In order to solve these problems we must all work together. The more diverse the ideologies the better. Right and Left, North and South, East and West. How else can we truly get a grasp on the problems and their possible solutions. The problem arises because there are many who are unwilling to listen and those who are unwilling to listen must be removed. We do not have time for their outdated beliefs.

Our current administration is leading us down a dangerous path with few if any long term solutions to any problem. They do not ask for nor accept the advice of other world leaders and seem to have an open disregard for over 50% of this nation's population. They disregard science as political propaganda even if it comes from within our own government. The word environmentalist has become synonymous with communist. The list goes on and on as we all know.

If we want this struggle to remain peaceful we must get out there and speak to others. I spent three hours the other night explaning to a guy why it is not ok to torture prisoners. Hard concept to grasp I guess? Overall he was a nice guy and we both listened to each other. Did I change his mind. Who knows? But maybe.

If we want to prevent a civil war we must Go Out and Speak to others. Have those difficult conversations. Speak out but also be sure to listen. Be nice. Be Civil. While we still can. It is time for us all to Wake Up. Many of us have.

[madfloridian]

9. So tell me how easily this group in power now will give it up? Tell me.

How easily will they give up the 3 branches? I am surprised at the assumption that this is about neighbors.

That is not what he is talking about at all. It goes to our country's future.

I give up. You guys win. And oh yeah, I go around being ugly to neighbors. :shrug:

[Chicago Democrat]

23. I'm not here to win, I'm trying to talk to you.

I believe if we win the election. They will "give up power". The republic still works, although it is being corrupted. We are going to win OVERWHELMINGLY too. So cheer up. I was only talking about my own situation as I live in a Republican neighborhood and have to talk to them all the time.

In my opinion, it Kerry nice that's going to win people not Dean's salt. I know Deans saying what we all want to hear on the left, but we are not the voters who need to be convinced! Dean is just a turnoff to anyone who is somewhat on the fence.

(A DFA donor)
(A Kucinich voter and donor)
in GOP Land

[madfloridian]

25. I live in a Republican neighborhood, too.

They are not about to give up their power. You just keep thinking this is about "neighbors". This is not about neighbors, it is about our country.

Where did you get the neighbor thing? I am nice to my neighbors, but I also know that our Secretary of State here only answers to Jeb. There is no congressional oversight at all, and she says no recount. They are still purging.

So you think they are just playing around here? I don't.

[Chicago Democrat]

27. The people you are talking about are the Repug version of us.

Die hard fanatics that really feel that way are a minority. A tiny minority on both parties. Freepers. Republican hacks. Big donors. Yes they are nasty. They are blinded or they knowingly hate democracy. They want to roll back the US to some 19th century Dicken's novel.

But 90% of registered Republicans and Democrats are blase and completely normal reasonable people who are not fanatics. You know this is true.

[noiretextatique]

28. i don't know if that is true, if they supported

bush's *win* via a stacked supreme court, among other atrocities. there are simply too many contradictions and lies for *reasonable* people to continue to support these madmen.

[madfloridian]

29. Those die hard fanatics are in charge of our government.

They do not care what the rest of us think at all. This minority is in charge of us now. I am not trying to be argumentative, but surely you realize they are not just going to walk away from this.

Why are we having to fight so hard for simple recounts for voting? Why must we beg for them to put some 40,000 back on the Florida voting lists? Why are they closing government records and changing records on health issues?

Read Waxman's site, read Greg Palast. There is an article in our paper today by a Jill Lancelot, talking about the increased lack of access to government documents.

I am not talking about being nice to neighbors. I am not talking about violence or ugliness. I am talking about telling it like it is, and realizing what we are up against.

[Chicago Democrat]

34. I am aware of the state of the erosion of Liberty, Rights, Law etc.

I am every bit as left wing as you appear to be. Except I do not feel that this "civil war" talk is helpful and I choose to be politically active and persuade in other ways. Like writing letters, to editor, to Senator. Like giving money. Like being nice to Republican people and not be partisan 24/7 100% of the time, if for no other reason, than to affect in a positive way. Respect given is based on respect received.

NeoConsdhave taken over many, many functions of government they are cooking the voter rolls, gerrymandering, violating laws, intimidation, control of media, the big lie and on and on and on and on and on...

First of all, this isn't the first time this has happened. Remember the Civil War... that was preceded by about 30 years of great political division. Bloody Kansas 1850.. where congressmen were beating each other. Then the reconstruction and Jim Crow and on and on and on... this is not the first time corruption and war have torn apart this nation.

[pearl]

40. Gingrich on the Civil War

"The left at it's core understands in a way Grant understood after
Shiloh that this is a civil war, that only one side will prevail,
and that the other side will be relegated to history. This war
has to be fought with the scale and duration and savagery that is
only true of civil wars. While we are lucky in this country that
our civil wars are fought at the ballot box, not the battlefields,
nonetheless it is a civil war."
Blinded by the Right, David Brock p.47

We are getting creamed because most people on the left are in
denial that this vicious political war being waged for at least
the last 12 years. They waged a civil lawsuit war on Clinton.
They're waging a cultural war and a class war. I personally
am on the front lines of this.

CD- I don't believe we have to give up our liberal values.
All we have to do is become better at Telling the Truth as
they are at lying.

"Pray for the Dead, and fight like hell for the living"
Mother Jones

:smoke:

[tom_paine]

42. Well said, pearl!

[pearl]

49. Thanks TP

The grammar did kinda suck. oh well. I guess I was too excited to
proof.

I have many thoughts on looking at this as a civil war. I believe
the modern day battlefield is The Media, and again we've been
getting creamed. I do however feel the INTERNET is our greatest "weapon" and we're starting to win some "battles"

Keep it up people, We're winning some battles.

:smoke:

[Chicago Democrat]

46. Gingrich is a non issue and an idiot

what he says matters not

[pearl]

51. You missed my point

or you didn't.

[Chicago Democrat]

57. Telling the truth better than they lie... Absolutely....

Seduce them first, then cajole, then make them cry with you....

peace brother

[TankLV]

48. I know this for a fact is true of Democrats, but every single repuke,

every single repuke is loyal first to his stinking party and last to his country.

That is how come we are in this mess.

You give WAY too much credit to any repuke!

[pearl]

52. Thank You TankLV!

So True. :smoke:

[tom_paine]

55. Bullshit! Partially true at best.

Go over to FR if you can stomach it and see how long it takes you to hear a lovignly constucted and hopefully told fantasy about how they would like to murder liberals at random.

These allusion, intimations, and outright fantasizing is something I've not seen here but once. There, well, let's just say I've never had to spend more than 15 min. to find at east one murderous fantasy.

And I'm not even liberal. But I vow to defend you all to the death if it comes to that.

For myself, I was one of those 90% you speak of. With growing horror at the similarity to Nazi propaganda tactics I watched Rush and the rest of the Busheviks create their Party-Loyal Sub-Media and lie laundry, beholden to no journalistsic ethics at all.

I didn't want to believe it. I resisted believing it. I WANTED to remain with "the 90%" as you call it.

Sometimes, the situation won't let you go. As the Bushevik kept getting away with nazi tactics, this only emboldened them until now where nearly everything is right out in the open from Vote Fraud to Orwellian Double-Standards and more!

I understand your point of view. In a Strong and Healthy Republic, I would absolutely agree.

But we don't have that. The Old Republic has one foot in the grave and Emperor-in-Waiting Jeb along with his Diebold Pals are creeping up behind it with a syringe of cyanide to finish the job.

Your assertion that the Freepers are the eqwuivalent of us is the same as saying the Jewish Resistors were the equivalent of Nazis becausde they did some bad things to fight the Nazis.

The grain of truth is that the Bushevik masters running their Propaganda Program and Party-Loyal Sub-Media have tactically inculcated this "Nazi Agressor as Whiny Victim mentality" because it's easier to kick an innocent person to death if you think that THEY are oppressing YOU as you kick the shit out of them.

I don't know what else to say, except that I hope and pray dearly that it is YOU, not I, who is right.

That will be the happiest plate of crow I ever et!

[BillZBubb]

59. I know no such thing!

"90% of registered Republicans and Democrats are blase and completely normal reasonable people who are not fanatics."

While true of Democrats, this is definitely NOT true of Repugs. Twenty percent of Repugs are diehard religious fanatics. There is nothing normal about them. Another 20% of Repugs are Lush Limpball donut heads--and they are fanatical and unreasonable.

Maybe half the Repugs are normal and reasonable, but that's being generous.

[keithyboy]

12. We don't have to stoop to their lowness but we sure as hell can fight back

Don't let them shut you up, don't be afraid. Turn them in when you discover wrong-doing, lying, cheating etc. Stand up for yourself. Use camcorders, tape recorders, video phones...whatever it takes. Put those bumper stickers on your cars and dare anyone to fuck with you! Learn how to look people right in the eyes at work and tell them exactly what you think. They try to win through intimidation and sleaze. Just don't let them get away with it. When they speak lies SHOUT out the truth! Plan to win!!

[rabid_nerd]

14. You are not stooping

when you fight for what you love

[Chicago Democrat]

24. Shout the truth.... But make sure someone is listening!

A whisper can be just as effective.. Its the truth that matters and it always, always comes out.

[madfloridian]

26. Then you whisper and be nice. Others will fight for you.

:hi:

Don't be afraid to talk to your neighbors for fear of their disapproval. That means they have already won....they have silenced you.

[Chicago Democrat]

30. You like to argue and are just like Dean.. Aggressive and offputting.

I bet you're not a salesman.

I told you they know I'm a Democrat. And I know they are Republicans. Neither of us is going to change both of us have made that clear.

Two options:

1) Scream at each other about things that neither wants to hear.

2) Find other things to base a relationship on, other than screaming at other.


So you like screaming, good for you. Have a nice life.

[Southsideirish]

32. The Germans thought if they were nice "he" would go away.

Read up on your pre WWII history - ordinary Germans felt if they were quiet and quietly tolerated Hitler and his boys the electorate would sooner or later wake up and throw him out of office.

[Chicago Democrat]

38. Ok so moderate rupublican are Hitler now...

Outragious.

Bush is bad enough on his own without resorting to exagerration.

[TankLV]

50. Tell us where they are not like Hitler.

We have many examples, too numerous to keep from crying.

But go ahead, keep your head in the sand.

[madfloridian]

39. Happened as they accepted things calmly. "They thought they were free"

From "They Thought They Were Free" by Milton Mayer. (A tale of Germany in
1933)

"" You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental
things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to
think. There was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said
my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into
being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for
people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little
men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned
men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things
and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful,
fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so
busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes,
fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and
within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were
growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we
were grateful. Who wants to think?"" End quote.

[ArkDem]

61. First, they came after the bumper stickers but I didn't

protest because I had no bumper stickers...

[ArkDem]

47. Those huge crowds giving Hitler the nazi salute and cheers

must have been great actors.

[madfloridian]

33. LOL

That is ok for you to say that. I don't mind.

[keithyboy]

53. But, I got your attention!

;-)

[cosmicdot]

15. throw some higher unemployment into the equation ... maybe a Depression

... a Depression on a depressed people ... yikes ...

the Radical Conservatives don't compromise ... it's their way or no way ... there are some who eventually find themselves standing on the same Founding Principle common ground (Pat Buchanan comes to mind ... how many have said they thought they'd never agree with him) ... they don't even include us in meetings ... I feel as if we've been compromising ... either through apathy or complicity or fill-in-the-blank ... for 30 some years now ...

someone posted yesterday IIRC where a Free Republic member sent a can opener to her representative saying, in essence, it's Springtime Against Liberals - the time is now!

the economy is being off-shored and Wal-marted ... mind the gap in the infrastructure ...... we've grown (via 'employment mobilization' ... moving constantly) ... to a society which barely knows the person living across the street ... gosh knows what's brewing in the pent-up Pandora 'hate' box ...

~~building community/stabilization should be a goal of the 44th President's Domestic Plan~~we be tired of moving


... angst is high ...

gosh knows what would happen if all medications ceased on our populace

what is the current American Psyche?

Henry Steele Commager ... 1902-1998 ... where is the American Mind?

history lesson
"The American Mind", in addition, was a work of intellectual history written at the height of the influence of American intellectual history as a field. Although much of the book is a description of the cultural transformation from the late 19th to the early 20th century, especially tracing the growth of pragmatism, the study is justifiably seen in retrospect as a claim that particular American traits add up to a national character. Commager thought that the American character, while roughly recognizable, was flexible and inexact. Like many Americanists at mid-century he searched for a common bond of commitment to principles of democracy, opportunity, pragmatism, and intellectual freedom in American culture—to offset the dangers of totalitarianism abroad. For this search, a later generation of American historians has written off Commager as a conservative who is irrelevant, at best, to the multicultural agenda of our current society.http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/commager.html

[madfloridian]

19. Yes, cosmic, you get it for sure. Thanks.

Your quote:
SNIP.."the Radical Conservatives don't compromise ... it's their way or no way ... there are some who eventually find themselves standing on the same Founding Principle common ground (Pat Buchanan comes to mind ... how many have said they thought they'd never agree with him) ... they don't even include us in meetings ... I feel as if we've been compromising ... either through apathy or complicity or fill-in-the-blank ... for 30 some years now ..."

Also, closing government records...will post an article on that soon....shutting us out of government. It happened gradually, but now we know.

This is NOT about being nice to one's neighbor. It is about saving a once great country.

[kentuck]

16. Absolutely ! Fight now!

You may not get the chance to fight again.

[Southsideirish]

36. Amen, Kentuck!

Brilliant and succinct post.

[Solly Mack]

17. The right certainly sees it as a war...and playing the better angel

won't defeat the right...it will only allow the right to continue.

[Wind Dancer]

18. Dean is right!

As Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said:

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter".

[madfloridian]

58. "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"

I had forgotten that statement. Thanks for reminding me.
:hi:

[John_H]

21. Dean is right on the money. Chimp is taking this beyond politics.

He's blatantly using military casualties, concoted terror fears, the same voting scams Jeb used in 2000, ads that do not exaggerate--they outright lie. And Team Kerry is playing this like they're running the Weld race all over again.

WAKE UP!!!!!

[Guaranteed]

22. That's right. Just win it, deal with the rest later. nt

[Neshanic]

31. But don't out gay right-wing newscasters....it's not nice.

[tom_paine]

35. No. Out them. It's like revealing Julius Streicher was really a Jew

www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Streicher.html

Not "like", actually it's "EXACTLY LIKE".

Got no problem with outing Shep Smith, the Homosexual Homo-Hater who makes his living spreading anti-homosexual (and any other despised sub-group) propaganda.

[pearl]

41. Check out my Gingrich quote

round about the 40 post. Not very good at posting.

[kaitykaity]

43. I don't know what this "nice" nonsense is even all about.

The other side stopped being "nice" years and years
and years ago. It was only after the 2000 coup that
the left base woke up and said "what the fuck?"
And here we are, four years later, worried about
being 'nice.'

:eyes:

[ArkDem]

44. In response to a 'girl'?

[madfloridian]

56. Not sure what you mean, but a girl in the group asked a question.

She asked about dialoguing with them...the whackos was apparently her word...not Dean's. He has been known to use that word though.
He was meeting with some of the Dean leaders from CA.

Not sure what you meant.

[ArkDem]

60. How old was she?