Let's get it on: School Vouchers

[Selwynn]

I've been thinking a lot about school vouchers again. I was against them. Now I'm asking myself some new questions.

First of all, on one level vouchers seems like the kind of social program I might want to support - given poorer families the potential to have the same freedoms other families might have.

Second of all, I remember that I myself went to a private school from grade 1-5. I was failing in the public school I was in in Indiana. I remember feeling completely confused, with a teacher that wouldn't teach, overwhelmed by classes packed to the hilt. I was miserable and my grades were Cs, Ds and an F.

My parents made sacrifices and worked to get me into a private school where they had some friends and knew the environment. Those years were some of the best school years I had. I made straight As the first grading period, then the next, and the next, then next year, and after that. I went from failing in my public school to scoring post-high school in those yearly tests they would do in second grade.

For me, it was a life changing decision for the better.

Third, I'm not sure I'm convinced vouchers is a potential separation of church/state issue. As long as the voucher system makes no claim about religion and gives no preference to a religious school, I see no reason why there should be a problem with a family choosing to use that assistance to send their child to whatever school they feel will be best. The private school I went to happened to be a "Christian" school. It was still the best choice for me.

Fourth, I'm not sure I'm convinced anymore that vouchers weakens public schools. If "failing" schools are overcrowded anyway, then having a certain percentage of kids leave for private school doesn't seem to hurt, but in fact helps - it allows teachers a better teacher to student ratio with helps performance. I don't think that there is a necessary argument that can be made that says school vouchers hurts public schools - I don't even see it as giving up on the public school system. REMEMBER - rich people can already go to whatever schools they want, and most don't send their children to public schools. Remember that when we talk about supporting public education. I believe in public education as well, but I ALSO believe in giving as many people as possible more equal opportunities for the same benefits. If a child from a wealthy family can leave a public school for a better private one, what about a program that would allow a child from a poor family in a bad school to leave for a better private one?

I believe that the state should have responsibility to provide a minimum standard of education to its citizens, and I believe that minimum standard should be high. But at the same time, I also believe in greater social equality, which means at a most basic level, I want ALL Americans to have access to the same opportunities regardless of economic status. Which means.... why wouldn't I think long and hard about a proposal that would help people from lower income situations have access to opportunities and choices that rich have with ease?

Let's do this...

[CO Liberal]

1. Using That Logic

...of giving poor families the same choices as richer families, why not have a voucher program so everyone can drive a Mercedes? After all, why should only rich people be able to afford them?

:-)

[Selwynn]

4. Education is not a luxury.

Mercedes is.

[cheezus]

14. exactly. that's why we have public education

but if you privatize it all (which is the logical conclusion of vouchers), then the rich get luxury schools, and the poor kids will be in the ford pinto schools.

[Selwynn]

17. That's why we have really shitty public education :/

[cheezus]

22. No, we have excellent public education

especially when you consider the resources they're given to work with. In an area that has "shitty public education", they obviously need all the funding they can get. Taking money away for vouchers will only make it worse.

[outinforce]

59. Which Is What

We have right now.

Even here in the District of Columbia which spends more money per student that any other place in the USA, the poor kids attend public schools and most get absolutely awful educations.

That is why Bill and Hillary Clinton would not send Chelsea to a public DC School. And why most politicians - Democrats and Republicans -- who come here will not send their own kids to DC schools.

It also explains why many teachers in the DC Public School system can afford to and do send their own children to private schools.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. OK.

Then just give everyone a voucher for a car. Forget about the kind of car.

Transportation is no more a luxury than is an education.

In your relatively shortsighted initial post, you fail to recognize that the choice has already been there, as you experienced yourself.

Your parents made the needed sacrifices to put you through private schools. So did mine! But, that's the point.

First, they made the sacrifices, meaning they didn't need gov't sanction and support. No vouchers didn't mean you or i couldn't go to a private school. We went anyway. And, my dad was just a milkman.

Secondly, the voucher systems in place in no way cover the entire cost of private tuition. So, those kids, in poor communities, without further financial resources, attending those poorly performing schools you mentioned, are still stuck there. Under that scenario, vouchers become a solution in search of a problem, since they won't address the problem purported to be their raison d'etre.

Next, funding a sectarian school with gov't money DOES violate separation of church and state. The separation concept is what justified the tax free status of sectarian schools, their properties, and associated churches. I don't remember which SCOTUS decision that was, but it was in the first decade of the 20th century. I will look it up if i get some time today. So, you're surmise that it doesn't violate is contradicted by a case in which they do NOT pay taxes because of that separation. Receiving the money is just the opposite side of the same transaction.

Lastly, this is, indeed, a tax rebate for too many people who can already afford, perhaps with sacrifices like your parents and mine, to send their kids to private schools. Your parents didn't get any tax rebate, or deduction, because they were spending education money somewhere else. That's the cost of the choice.
The Professor

[cheezus]

5. the result would be discounted mercedes for the rich

poor still driving a ford.

You can get a $5000 voucher to help pay for the $44,000 mercedes.

Rich dude: "whoohoo! I only have to pay $39000!"
Poor dude: "I can't afford $39,000! Guess it's the $14,000 ford. (sigh)"

[CO Liberal]

20. That's Why I Oppose Vouchers

We'd be better off making the public schools better.

One thing to bear in mind is that the main reason people keep advancing these stupid voucher programs is to punish the teachers and the teacher's unions for historically supporting Democrats.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. No. People keep advancing these stupid voucher programs

because they are religously motivated and want "faith based" initiatives.

[cheezus]

26. well, not sure that's the main reason

It seems like the main reason is to funnel public money into religious instituions. The southern baptists are trying to pass a resolution (sorry I don't have the link for this, it was on DU a while ago) telling parents to take their kids out of the "godless" public schools that are an enemy of christianity. They want the rest of us to pay for their kids to go to some fundy school where they can learn to hate.

The conservatives have huge problem with public anything. Teachers and cops have hugely important and difficult jobs, yet they're always getting shit on.

[noiretextatique]

46. this is the problem with vouchers, in a nutshell

vouchers will do absolutely nothing to change the current situation. instead of disparity in publically run schools (the current situation), vouchers will simply re-create the problem in privately run schools.
i don't understand why people don't "get" this...the push for vouchers is mainly about lining the pockets of private education providers.

[aldian159]

58. exactly

another tax cut for the rich.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Nooooo!

Vouchers will mean crap diddly to those of us in rural areas who have no "better" school to send our kids to.

It also will result in the worsening of our public education, until people demand all private schools.

Trust me, the better plan is to improve what we have now, not sell the school system to the lowest bidder.

[Selwynn]

6. Prove it.

"It also will result in the worsening of our public education, until people demand all private schools."

Really? How so?

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Read this

and see what you think.

http://www.nea.org/vouchers/

[Selwynn]

9. doing it now. (n/t)

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Mind you , I must add that I come from a family of educators

and I trained to be one myself, though I opted not to teach after all.

[cheezus]

27. Your family is full of American heros

Taking on the responsibility of forming America's next generation - for less than the garbage man makes.

[GreenPartyVoter]

45. Well... some of us are heros

Some of us bailed. :( Just can't do it anymore.

But, we're still making less than the garbage man makes, so I don't feel quite so guilty. *l*

[cheezus]

52. it's a hard job

not re-enlisting upon return from war doesn't make the soldier less valiant for having served

[Selwynn]

15. Ok, some points stronger than others - the social case sold me (again)

The Social Case Against Vouchers

* A voucher lottery is a terrible way to determine access to an education. True equity means the ability for every child to attend a good school in the neighborhood.

* Vouchers were not designed to help low-income children. Milton Friedman, the "grandfather" of vouchers, dismissed the notion that vouchers could help low-income families, saying "it is essential that no conditions be attached to the acceptance of vouchers that interfere with the freedom of private enterprises to experiment."

* A pure voucher system would only encourage economic, racial, ethnic, and religious stratification in our society. America’s success has been built on our ability to unify our diverse populations.


That helped me re-affirm my opposition to school vouchers...

...and yet, I still think back and realize that for me, private school was the best thing that ever happened to me.

[K-W]

28. Think back indeed, but come up with the right answer.

What can we do to make public schools better, actually better. The answer isnt to switch to a worse system, its to properly fund and properly approach education.

[GreenPartyVoter]

31. I am glad you had a good school experience :)

I am not against private schools at all. I just would like to see better quality education (not via the No teacher Left Standing act, though) in public school. For that matter, I'd like to see public school extended from preschool-college. (But the DoD would never go for that because a) I'd take the money for it from their funds and b) getting rid of the G.I. Bill is sure to cut into their enlistment numbers in a big way.)

As far as vouchers go, I am glad you reaffirmed you original position. But since the NEA page really only gives you talking points rather than an in-depth analysis, here are some articles that look closer at the subject if you feel you need more to think about: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=site:www%2Ecommondreams%2Eorg+school+voucher

[Trillo]

57. Private schools were the worst thing that could have happened to me. n/t

[wellstone_democrat]

65. The biggest backers in my pro-voucher area are....

Christian fundamentalists. Oh yes indeedy do the schools that started in 1954 (four of 'em and if the significance of the date eludes you, google Brown v. Topeka 1954 and you'll get it) in my southern/western city love the idea of vouchers. Mind you, they do tie this to "excellence and merit"---who decides admissions based on this? Why they do. Its also the most segregated place its been my misfortune to live in---the Christian schools (Protestant) are all Anglo. The one Catholic school is very mixed ethnically and racially and they DON"T support vouchers.

The people I work with and live with in my middle-class corner of Texas really have an obsession with vouchers. Why? Because they want sectarian (read: segregated Christian schools already in existence) schools included and, that other favorite, home schooling.

This is one reason why school funding keeps going down in some areas, its the "starve the beast" formula loved by some conservatives. The schools are "failing" so...vouchers will give parents other "options"
Sure, if they have the ability to get in these private schools, have the transportation to get there and they land in one that really does value education over indoctrination or profits.

I went to private school and no, my parents didn't have to sacrifice to send me. I was privileged. But, they never voted no on a bond issue in my town for schools--they considered as well educated population as good for the commonweal. It was good for me but I didn't go to some "instant school" or fundamentalist hell which is what will pop up from entrepreneurs if vouchers become reality. But, my sister opted not to go away to school and went to the public schools of our well off hometown---she got an excellent education. Public school works when it is funded properly and local control has its priorities in order.

[outinforce]

60. Tne NEA Speaks About Vouchers?

Gee.

I wonder what position they will take?

Do you have anything from a group that has a little bit less of a self-interest in the discussion?

[cheezus]

3. vouchers are a tax cut for the rich that the poor pay for

We should be putting our resources into making the schools better for everyone. But that aside, here's the problem as I indicated in the subject:

How much are the vouchers? They don't pay full tuition! If they did, everyone would want one and the private school would get all the public school kids and public money and it would be a public school.

The fact is, the voucher is for only a portion of what tution and fees would be. So it does a poor family no good - they can't afford private school, even with a voucher.

Vouchers do help families who were going to send their child to a private school anyway. Then it's just us taxpayers giving them a discount on a private school!

I wish we could afford to send ALL kids to a fancy school - but why should we give money to only a few who don't really need it?

edit: I didn't mean to say there are NO voucher programs that pay full tution. I just haven't seen any evidence that all or even most do

[Selwynn]

8. That's not correct.

In colorado the ammount proposed for vouchers would cover the cost of most private schools, but not some of the most elite "prep schools."

Of course, that was beat in the courts, but I'm just saying, you're saying "they don't pay full tuition" and you don't know that.

"The fact is, the voucher is for only a portion of what tution and fees would be. So it does a poor family no good "

The "fact" huh.. well, it was not the "fact" in colorado, so please show me these "facts"


Common people - you have to do better than this. :)

[cheezus]

21. Ok, prove me wrong

1. read my sig. I'm sick of you people demanding things from me

2. if you're so right, prove it. Find all the current and proposed voucher programs and prove to me that they fully pay tutition.

If we "people" have to better, maybe you should start with your own posts.

[Selwynn]

33. I don't have to prove anything - YOU MADE THE CLAIM

not me. Your claim was that vouchers DO NOT cover tuition. Period. You made the claim that you can't back up with anything, not me. I'm not saying all tuition programs fully cover all tution, but I can give you at least one example where it does, which is all I need to do to disprove your claim.

I know of at least one example where that is not necessarily true: colorado, reported on NPR this morning, which is what got me thinking about it in the first place. Several familys were protesting on the supreme court steps in support of vouchers and one of the things they said was that the vouchers WOULD INDEED cover the tuition cost of them to send the children where they wanted to.

[cheezus]

47. Okay, here's my links

# School vouchers are coupons which parents use in place of cash to pay partial tuition at a private--usually religious--school they choose in place of their child's public school. Voucher programs are operating in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Cleveland, Ohio; and Florida (in one county).

# Vouchers range in value from about $2,000 to $4,000, much less than tuition at elite private schools where tuition is $8,000-$15,000/year; so vouchers are not likely to be accepted at these schools.
http://www.civicmind.com/voucher.htm

------

By providing only partial tuition costs, Butler said, vouchers only will leave those most in need further behind. "Vouchers don't even make a dent in the material inequities of choice," she said.

http://www.pitt.edu/~gordonm/Pubdeb/Voucherstribreview.html

-----

Russell O. Siler agrees that choice is good. But the director of the Lutheran Office for Governmental Affairs, Washington, D.C., cautions, "We get in trouble when we equate vouchers with choice. If they provide only partial tuition and the family can't come up with the rest, then it's a choice with limits."

Julie Sieger, director of the Evangelical Lutheran Education Association, says she is similarly "concerned that there have been places where vouchers have gone into effect, but many of those programs don't offer enough money to make a difference."

http://www.thelutheran.org/9809/page22a.html

------------
What is a school voucher? Well, there are several forms of school vouchers first of all. There are governmental school vouchers, which are governmental tuition subsidies that are allotted to students in low-ranked schools to help fund their education at higher-ranked institutions. Governmental school vouchers also help fund the education for students that already attend private schools when the tuition fee becomes too burdensome for their parents/guardians. The funds for these vouchers would come mainly from taxes. There are full tuition and partial tuition governmental vouchers. Then, there are private vouchers. Private vouchers are provided by private businesses or private people who simply wish to aid the less fortunate. I am in support of each of the above forms of school vouchers to a certain extent.

http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~btatum/



---

Just a little googling. I'd put together some more reasearch if I cared, but this should be enough to prove that I'm not just lying when I say there are vouchers that don't pay the whole tuition.

[Selwynn]

53. very nice, thank you - some are better at goggling than others..

..so thanks, I'll look these over!

[cheezus]

34. so you call me a liar and run, eh?

still waiting for your "facts" to beat mine

[Selwynn]

35. And run - its been like 5 minutes pal.

[cheezus]

38. okay. fair point. sorry about that.

and I don't mean to get in a spat with you either. don't take me the wrong way.

recently i've been seeing more and more people see an opinion they disagree with, so they demand "proof" and berate the poster.

I don't think this is your MO - you seem intrested in the topic and have given a good discussion. But I've dealt with others who got personal and nasty about it, and that has worn on my patience.

[Selwynn]

41. Thanks :) But you should know that I ALWAYS ask for proof...

when someone makes a claim that seems beyond simple common knowledge. It's never anything personal. I just want the truth...

It's not that I'm not trusting....




...yes it is. :D

[cheezus]

49. I thought what I was saying WAS common knowlege

but I guess it wasn't. Thus the hastily pasted stuff from google in the other post.

[progressivebydesign]

40. Sort of like that stupid proposal for tax breaks paying for health care..

Please forgive me if it's John Kerry's plan.. but I know that there is a plan out there to provide tax breaks for medical insurance or care, that is being proposed by one of the candidates. Your point about vouchers is very well taken, it's a similar vibe. The low income (and even middle income) families don't have the resources, regardless of vouchers and tax cuts. The whole voucher thing is a way to funnel money into the right wing's favorite religion.

[outinforce]

61. What?

"They don't pay full tuition! If they did, everyone would want one and the private school"

I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding why that would be so.

If the conditions in the public schools were as great and as wonderful as those in private schools, then why would anyone want to go to a private school?

Of course, if the public school system is so bad that the politicians and the teachers themselves send their own kids to the private schools, then you are no doubt correct.

But all vouchers do in that case is to empower those who are too poor to afford a decent education for thier kids to enjoy the same benefit as the politicians and teachers.

[LoverOfLiberty]

10. Don't forget exclusion

Private schools can exclude whomever they want. Public schools cannot. What good are vouchers going to do for those students who aren't wanted in a private school?

[Selwynn]

18. Ok - that's a winning point!

Thank you for reminding me of that.

[pezcore64]

11. or how about just

putting more money into public schools so people dont assume that private ones give better education?

i know from experience of the local Catholic school in my area that this simply isnt true. Both the public school and the private are taught the same exact things, minus the religion class obviously. The only good thing about private schools are small classroom sizes, which could also be fixed by greater increases in public school funding.

If someone wants to go to a private school, fine, but Im not payin' for it. Maybe I should have gone since id be paying for it anyway! lol!

[Riptide]

30. The Catholic schools around here have much bigger class sizes ...

than the public schools. They routinely have between 32-36 children per class. The teachers do not have to be certified.

[Claire Beth]

13. I don't trust this administration with anything!

the neo-cons "wet dream" is to eradicate the public school school system. I say keep money in the public schools.

[madrchsod]

16. school vouchers are a scam

this nation set aside 160 acres to fund public education. this was so everyone in the united states had access to an education-rich and poor. this system for better or worse has worked for years. the goal of the school voucher is to destroy the right of the american people to have children receive an equal education. of course there are major problems-but vouchers will only make the problem worse. it`s very simple- those who have money will get a good education those who don`t won`t. if i have a voucher for 5 thousand and the school costs 7 thousand i may be able to make the difference-but- if i`m making walmart wages then there`s no way i can afford the extra money..thus my children go to an underfunded public school..there are many problems with school vouchers..
the walton family is cashing in up to 20 billion dollars worth of stock to basically destroy public education by backing vouchers. they are not the only wealthy right wing family that is pouring tens of millions of dollars into voucher program..get the drift..poor people can fend for themselves the rich get all the benefits

[Renew Deal]

19. Here is an old thread on this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1066104

[K-W]

23. Read this (PTA page on vouchers)

http://www.pta.org/ptawashington/issues/vouchers.asp

All vouchers do is move towards a privatized educational system. Which would be a disaster on many many many many levels.

The PTA is btw a good source for alot of information on education.

[Viking12]

25. Here's a strong argument against vouchers

MILWAUKEE — One school that received millions of dollars through the nation's oldest and largest voucher program was founded by a convicted rapist. Another school reportedly entertained kids with Monopoly while cashing $330,000 in tuition checks for hundreds of no-show students.

The recent scandals have shocked politicians, angered parents and left even some voucher supporters demanding reforms. The troubles have helped lead to passage of a state law requiring voucher schools to report more financial information to the state. Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle signed it last month. But so far, efforts to impose more rigorous academic standards on voucher schools have failed.

-snip-

The schools aren't required to report much about their methods to the state, or to track their students' performance. Proponents say that frees the schools from bureaucracy. But some say the lack of oversight makes them a prime target for abuse.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2001896460_vouchers06.html

[Selwynn]

32. Thanks - this really helps me back on the wagon, please keep it coming...

I'd appreciate more sources too - I've been reading what you've been posting. This helps me remember why I'm against vouchers again.

[salvorhardin]

36. John Taylor Gatto?

Does anyone here have an opinion on John Taylor Gatto? While I wholeheartedly agree with much of what the man has to say, there's something about his message that bothers me and I can't put my finger on it.

[progressivebydesign]

37. Hmm.. choke the already underfunded public schools by vouchers..

The problem with the whole voucher craze, is that you can look no further to where the push has ALWAYS been for these, and you will find the fundamentalist Christians, and the Evangelicals.. looking for money and new recruits. This has been a pet issue for those Right Wing Conservative Christian groups for years. Take money out of the schools that teach, not preach.. take money out of the schools that teach the facts of science, not the myths of the Bible.. that's the idea behind vouchers.

The money comes out of our public schools! There is a reason why the public schools have a hard time. They have no money! So, basically you're saying we should privatize our schools???? That is what is happening. The public schools need to be brought up to standard... and it's not about testing. It's about funding. AND.. it's about holding the parents as accountable as the kids for success in school. What I mean by success, is not high grades really, it's coming to school each day prepared, fed, having the parents take the homework seriously, and provide an atmosphere for learning. The reason the private school kids do well there is because the parents are invested in the education.

There are thousands of wonderful public schools, but many that are inadequately funded. We spend more money to house prisoners, than we do to educate the kids properly.. I'm totally against vouchers. If parents have no money, they can go to the private school and ask about scholarships, if that's what they want. BUT.. MY tax dollars are NOT going to support a religious education for someone elses child. I don't mind supporting public education... but I'm not enriching the likes of Jerry Falwell. Fix our schools instead!

[ieoeja]

39. The Public Education System is Failing

Or, at least, that is what the new Privy Council under King George III of England claimed about the public education system in the colonies. Decades later, when their private correspondence went public, it was discovered that the new Councilors set out to intentionally talk down public education because they feared that an educated populace might get the idea that they could run their own affairs independant of England.

My 2nd grader in a regular Chicago Public School was taught multiplication/division and required to turn in 25 book reports. If I remember correctly, I turned in my first book report in the SEVENTH grade. And multiplication/division didn't come around until the 4th or 5th grade.

Yeah, these public schools sure have gone down hill. But then, I had to walk five miles to school. And it was uphill in both directions. Ah, the good ol' days.

[trixie]

42. Don't forget the scam factor...

You are a private school, you allow these kids in on the vouchers, you now have the money and viola...tuition just went up, kids can't afford the extra tuition, are no longer welcome in school but you still have the initial voucher, can keep the money and the child is back in a public school that has just lost that child's portion of funding.

Down in Florida (where else?) there was a lot of that going on. There were reports of children being told they were not suitable for that school after the voucher was taken.

Apparently it is big business for private schools.

[Selwynn]

44. Very interesting.

Thanks :)

[bleedingheart]

43. The biggest problem are the parents and communities that do

not work toward a good public school...

Good public schools don't just happen...they are supported, funded and upheld by the public.

My kids go to a great public school, the same one I went to, and it is only getting better.

However!!!!! we have an active school board and a community that appreciates and supports public education.

Not but 7 miles away is a city school district that hasn't even got enough people to serve on the school board because NO ONE in that community CARES about their kids enough to run and fix the problems.... They have teachers who are overwhelmed and who leave at the first opportunity because the kids in their school terrorize them....and the parents do nothing.

Vouchers are a convenient "opt out" on society...it is the classic..."taking my ball and going home".... and if we all did that it would be a nightmare....

[liberalitch]

48. what school vouchers mean to classroom teachers....

Okay, so my school is failing (not really Phoebus is doing really well on testing... Go Phantoms!). What is your solution?
Pull capital resources (paid to my school in the form of tax dollars by those who pay taxes) from my school and give it parents to take their child to whatever school they think does a better job.
what does that do?
Fix my school?
Re-train the teachers?
Diagnose what reading levels and sort problems?
My answer it does nothing but make a failing institution worse.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Two points

1) There's nothing intrinsically wrong with public schools as a concept. European and Japanese students get superior educations in largely public systems. I believe that local control in American education is a two-edged sword. If a community is full of educated, affluent people, it will usually have an excellent school system. Look at the wealthiest suburb in your area, and you'll most likely find a school with facilities and curriculum to match all but the most exclusive private schools. If most residents of a community are poor and uneducated, the school system is likely to be a disaster.

The other day, I got into a coffee shop conversation about public education, and one of the people I was talking to suggested making all metropolitan school districts pie-shaped to take in a tiny slice of the inner city and a large slice of suburbia. It's worth thinking about.

2) The danger of funding religious schools can be seen in the contemporary U.K. The British government has always funded religious schools. This worked fine as long as the religious spectrum ranged from laid-back Roman Catholic to Anglican to Methodist and Presbyterian. What happened in Northern Ireland, though, is that all the Protestant children went to Protestant schools and all the Catholic children went to Catholic schools, and in both sets of schools, the children were taught militant hatred of the other group and never got to know one another as individuals.

Furthermore, recent developments have caused another problem in the entire U.K. The rise in the Muslim population has led to the establishment of Islamic schools, harmless for the most part, but including some real far-reactionary fundamentalist ones as well. Under the law as it currently exists, the British government has to fund these schools that are teaching hatred for all non-Muslims and the overthrow of non-Islamic societies as an ideal.

Would you really want the U.S. or state and local governments providing funding for a Christian Reconstructionist school, even indirectly?

[Cleita]

51. I did a post on this back in 2002, which quickly disappeared

when DU started having server problems. I never reposted. However, my premise was that you can have one or the other, but not both. Giving vouchers takes money from our already stressed public school system. However, if we eliminate the public school system and issue vouchers instead so parents can send their children to the private school of their choice, it might be an answer to our big public education problem.

Okay it could work like the health care system does in other countries. The goverment collects the taxes, issues the vouchers and then pays when they are redeemed. The schools would be required to accept a predetermined fee for each student that would be re-negotiated on a yearly basis for cost of operating fluctuations, not one penny more. Any school that charges higher tuition would not be accredited by the government.

Speaking of accreditation, there would have to be certain regulations and codes met to insure that all schools have the same minimum of standards, subject to periodic inspection. Other than that any fringe religious or other educational institution could hop onto the gravy train and the children would be short-changed.

I'm not saying that religious schools couldn't teach religion, but they should be required to teach science and other subjects as well. For example, when I went to Catholic school, sure we got all the Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden tales, but in science class we learned evolution and Darwinism without any conflict. The nuns felt that neither had one to do with the other.

If educators could work out the details, then it would be up to the schools to compete with each other for students and let's hope the cream rises to the top. Also, we must be adamant that no stock be issued, nor traded on the stock exchange. Other than that it becomes one more corporation sucking away money at the tit of the national treasury.

[Trillo]

54. My biggest objection to vouchers . . .

. . . is the restrictions on rights that is implied by the children being on private property. In other words, private schools aren't required to follow the same non-discrimination laws, while public schools are. It may become a moot point that private schools that accept voucher money, may be forced to grant non-discriminatory rights to all students. In other words, these private schools may lose some of their private status. In the long term, that may threaten all of our private property rights.

I also was schooled in some private schools, in grades 6th through part of 10th. Unfortunately, in the private schools, the greatest lesson I learned was "to quit." I learned other things academically, but that was by far the most impressed single lesson taught to me. If only they could have taught facts as thoroughly. It is a lesson that as an adult I have had to transcend, for our system doesn't reward quitters. I'm not certain I have completely, it is still very easy for me to walk away from something that I've already invested a lot time in. In fact, that is always in my mind, and it's not a good thing when so much in our system depends upon individual perseverance in a specialized activity.

On the positive side, other kids didn't bully me in private schools. That activity was transferred to administrations that did, and who then lied.

What tax monies are vouchers funded with? Does voucher money come from local property taxes?

If not, then there is an argument that the funding for vouchers, being spread over a larger tax base, is less dependent upon local wealth. If public schools don't also have access to voucher money, then are they still dependent on local property values? Hence, the voucher system may be unfair. Are the same vouchers also redeemable at any public school the parent chooses?

Will public schools that lose funding because of vouchers, be able to raise local property taxes to make up the difference?

It seems to me that the public school funding through local property taxes is not the best funding mechanism, as it insures inequity in funding between public schools in rich versus poor areas.

[seabeyond]

55. it is all about taking out the public schools

along with children left behind. so the funding can go to the private schools, hollowing out the public school system. fundies are ready with all their schools to bring the children in. want to know the condition. bush is hero. republican christian. public school kids are ingodly kids. this is what you help to create with vouchers.

how about focusing the energy in public and parents participate.

dont think there arent bad teachers in private. 2nd grade a waste academically for son, i took over and tau ght him at home what the teacher wasnt able to give at school

[Cleita]

64. I agree that the Christian schools would try to use this to their

advantage. Once of the problems with the public school system is that funding isn't spread across the board, so that schools in poor neighborhoods receive the same as funding as the rich ones. This system of tying schools to neighborhoods presumes that there is a stay-at-home parent.

What if children were allowed to attend schools that were close to one parent's place of work with an after school day care set up? Not only would a parent be able to have lunch with her/his children, but they could have more time with each other during the drive to work.

[hughee99]

56. School choice

In my area, we have something called "School Choice". It's essentially a voucher system, but only for public schools. There are 6-8 public schools in the area and a parent can send their child to any of the schools. Some schools are better than others at certain things. One schools has an excellent technology program, another is a regional trade school, and another has a very good english/social sciences program. It's based on the voucher system, and parents must pay (less than $1000 to participate). The rest of the money is transferred from the town where a student comes from, to the town where the student attends school. Sadly, the town I grew up in does not have any of these excellent programs, and our town schools system pays out quite a bit to other towns. Teachers in our town are complaining about this, but in the end, many children are getting a better education as a result. I think it's more important for the children to get a good education than to keep the school administrations happy. Many have suggested that the school cut back on certain programs that don't attract students and spend that money on programs that will, in order to attract and retain students. When more students come here, the extra money can be used to restore those programs in the future. Opponents in the school system say "But you can't cut those programs, they're important" (programs like a very large Art and Music program). I'm in favor of Art and Music, but not at the expense of math, english, science and history. If we can, and we would, attract students for those things, we could then expand those programs again. I think it's a good alternative to school choice, but schools need to be willing to do what is necessary to remain competitive.

[wellst0nev0ter]

62. Hey, Lookee Here. . .

Seems that private schools are more racially segregated than public schools

So tell me AGAIN how vouchers is going to fix things?

[PA Democrat]

63. My problem with vouchers

is that private schools can and do regularly refuse to admit students as they see fit. Private schools can and regularly do refuse to accept students with learning disabilities or physical disabilities.

My daughter was refused acceptance to the local Catholic school because they said they were unequipped to deal with her disability. The ugly truth was they simply didn't want her, because they would not admit her even when we said that we would provide a full-time aide at our expense.

School vouchers will strand children like my daughter who are more difficult and more expensive to educate in a school system which will struggle with proportionately less funding to educate the kids who cost the most to teach.

BTW, my experience with the very Catholic school that I attended as a child opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of church officials who refuse communion to candidates who are not "pro-life". These "Christians" are "pro-life" only as long as they don't have to deal with the kids who commit the sin of being born with a disability.

[Nikia]

66. Could the voucher system be like federal college aid?

The government could offer scholarships and low interest loans on money used for private schools just as they currently do for college. I know that the money has to come from somewhere. Awarding the vouchers based on income though should be a priority if a coucher sytem is in place.

[Yupster]

67. My kid goes to private school

The most expensive one in town. Hopefully the best. It costs $ 8,500 per year.

I think if there was a vote of the parents at the school, most of them would vote no on vouchers.

I think the main opinion would be that the reason they put the kids in private school to begin with was to keep the rest of your kids away from theirs. They'd rather pay the extra money than have their kids have to mix with the "other" kids out there.

My own story is that I was a public school teacher for nine years locally. I know most of the administrators, and I know my kids' education is very far down the list of things they care about. I wouldn't put my kid near the local public schools, and that's an opinion shared by a large number of public school teachers in many cities.

Those who know the public schools the best keep their kids far away if they can. Public school is for the rest of you guys and your kids.