I have a couple of questions for those of the Christian Faith...

[Solon]

To clear the air, I used to be a Christian (Catholic) and even then I did not understand these issues with my former Christian Church, I'm mystified about their point of view. I simply want to reach an understanding and therefore I am not critisizing nor slamming Christianity in general, I only want clarification on the POVs of the various Christians here.

First things first is this, why are the words "Belief" and "Worship" used interchangably? I guess I better explain why this seems mystifying to me, besides meanings that are not overlapping. I'm a polytheist, as such, in my beliefs, Yaweh does exist and Jesus was possibly Divine in orgin, I simply do not worship either. So when somebody askes if I believe in Jesus, I say yes, but I don't worship Him or His Father, nor do I believe he absolved my sins, that is for Christians, does that make sense? (BTW: I do believe that all the Abriamic Religions worship the same God, boy is he popular :))

Second question, why the need to proselytize? This seems loaded as the fact of the matter is that many Christians view this as a basic tenent of their faith. I can understand somewhat the saving of people from Hell, but to be honest, it means nothing to me. My personal belief is that my religion is right for ME, it is not my place to judge others based on their beliefs, nor do I believe that they will be punished for not worshiping my Gods. Actions count much higher than faith in any case, and if we are going to be judged in any afterlife it would be based on that and not on Faith.

[harrison]

1. This is what Marcus Borg says in Meeting Jesus Again for the

First Time. (136-137)

He is talking about "believing in Jesus"

For me, what tha phrase used to mean, in my childhood and into my early adulthood, was "believing things about Jesus." To believe in Jesus meant to believe what the gospels and the church said about Jesus. That was easy when I was a child, and became more and more difficult as I grew older.

But I now see that believing in Jesus can (and does) mean something very different from that. The change is pointed by the root meaning of the word believe. Believe did not originally mean believng a set of doctrines of teachings; in both Greek and Latin its roots mean "to give onee's heart to." The "heart" is the self at its deepest level. Believing, therefore, does not consist of giving one's mental assent to something, but involves a much deep level of one's self. Believing in Jesus does not mean believing doctrines about him. Rather, it means to give one's heart, one's self at its deepest level, to the post Easter Jesus who is the living Lord, the side of God turned toward us, the face of God, the Lord who is also the spirit.

[checks-n-balances]

60. I read that book too! I like Borg - he doesn't mind asking questions

but he's not at all popular with conventional thinkers (all the more reason to listen to him, IMHO).

[forgethell]

2. Answers

To 1: They are not the same thing

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

To 2: They are commanded to

Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

But hey, I'm with you. Everybody is entitled to go to Hell in their own way, so once I've shared, it's up to you to accept, or not.

[Solon]

3. Do you actually believe that others are damned for differing beliefs?n/t

[Az]

11. Consider the issues

Caveat: I am not a Christian.

1. They believe in a thing called the soul. This is your identity. It is seperate from your body. It is eternal.

2. They believe that our identity or soul survives our death. The conditious you find yourself in after you die are dependent on your actions and beliefs prior to death.

3. All people share a quality of goodness that should be cherished. It is our duty to help each other. Considering the consequences of not following Jesus it becomes the single most important thing to try to get people to come to Jesus if you care about them in any way.

Based on these 3 concepts it becomes imperitive to evangelyze others. Its not just a question of letting others believe whatever they want to believe. If your belief includes the idea of consequences for your beliefs it becomes imperitive to bring anyone else you care for in the slightest into line with your beliefs. Evolutionarily speaking this is an amazing impetus for propogation and the very reason that Christianity has spread so far and wide.

[Solon]

15. Makes sense, sort of...

One thing I get confused about is that, for members of my religion, ACTIONS count more than words, strong personal responsibility ethic there.

On Another Note: Even when Catholic, I was never a good one, even though I went to PSR (Parochial School of Religion), I never believed in Hell. considering the liberal leanings of my family, in theology as well as politically, its not like I was raised in a "Fire and Brimstone" enviroment. Nobody in this family believe in Hell, in fact my sister feels so strongly about it she refused to watch that Robin Williams movie about going to Heaven, with his wife in Hell.

[sangh0]

19. re " ACTIONS count more than words"

You've hit upon a debate that has split religions, including Christianity, throughout the ages. Some Christians believe that one gets to Heaven through "good works". Other Christians reason "If Heavan is so wonderful, how could anything I could possibly do here on Earth possibly merit such a reward", which has led them to believe that one can not "earn" a place in Heaven, and instead it depends on God's "grace"

[LeftyChristian]

Maybe this helps maybe it doesn't

Ephesians 2 8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

I am Lutheran and this passage is the reason that Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the cathedral door in Germany and then broke away from the Catholic church.

[Az]

21. The Pascal's Wager and personal morality

There is an interesting paradox within the Christian doctrine. The notion that belief is required for salvation drives the bulk of the propogation of the belief. Pascal's Wager offers insite into the thinking behind this drive. If one chooses to believe out of a personal desire for heaven then clearly the drive for moral behaviour is not an internal one. Instead it is motivated by greed.

In fact there is a great deal of externalising morality within Christianity. It even insists that it is impossible for people to be entirely good. Only by attempting to adhere to the doctrine and looking to Jesus for forgiveness do you have any chance of salvation. This completely removes any internal consideration of morality. For it is compliance with coded rules instead of consideration that drives the moral code of this faith.

[forgethell]

29. What difference would that make to you?

I believe you must accept Christ as Savior, yes. but I force my beliefs on no one. Nor do I care if others think that I am damned because I dodn't accept there beliefs. Why should I? As long as I am free to believe and share my beliefs, I do not care what others may believe. As I said, everyone is free to go to Hell in their own way. Isn't that a liberal position, freedom?

[Az]

31. Another liberal position is caring

And this is what drives many evangelist types. Can you honestly say you would find heaven so pleasant if you had not tried to save others?

This is the thing that I find interesting about liberal Christians. While I appreaciate their reserve in not attempting to force their beliefs I am struck by the implications of this. If you assume I am a good person and you believe that without Jesus I get to spend eternity in a very uncomfortable place, why on earth would you not try everything in your power to save me.

By contrast, even though I percieve problems from following what I believe to be a false idea, I do not see sufficient damage to you from your beliefs to try to intervene. But if you had a belief where in you felt you were supposed to palce your hand in acid repeatedly I would probably feel some urge to talk you out of it at the very least. I do not envy any of you that have this position. It must cause a good deal of concern. And its all because you care.

[forgethell]

34. I don't know.

I am driven by no great need to evangelize others, if only because where I live, everyone that wants it has the opportunity to hear the Gospel. On the other hand, I am perfectly willing, even eager, to share my faith if someone seems curious, or if I think it will help. But it's like changing someone's political position. All you can do is share your own knowledge, and/or experience. Then it is up to that individual to decide. So, I don't keep pressing them about it. If they want to learn more, I'm available. If not, why spoil a friendship?

As for where you spend eternity, well, to be perfectly honest, I think non-Christians are, well, not in heaven when they die. However, you know what? That is not my decision, but God's

Genesis 18
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

On the other hand check this out:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Solon]

36. I can answer the question about...

some theologically liberal Christians. Many that I know do not believe in a literal hell at all. They believe that their God does not punish or reward based on faith, but based on the actions of the person in life. I have met Catholics who believe that Non-Christians go to purgatory instead of hell, and therefore they believe that they are still saved by their works and repentance of sins. Only the true monsters are reserved places in hell, if it exists at all, according to them, like Hitler or Stalin. That is because of their actions in life and not their faith. As my mother said, "I cannot believe in a God who would condemn Ghandi to Hell simply for not worshipping him."

[patcox2]

39. Its not so paradoxical or inconsistent.

Liberal Christians tend to beleive christianity is one of many ways to salvation, not necessarily the sole way. Therefore, as a liberal christian, I beleive that if you live by the golden rule (do unto others) and worship god as you understand him, then you too will go to heaven. Therefore I do not have any moral obligation to "rescue" you from perdition.

Liberal christians are not literalists for almost the same reason. It is the liberal stance to beleive the bible is obviously flawed becuase it uses fallable human language set down by fallible humans, presenting their fallible understanding of truths which transcend comprehension. Therefore, christianity itself, at least when it comes down to details presented in the bible, is likely to be as flawed as any other religion.

[Solon]

40. I'm just wondering if you have difficulties with that interepretation...

I know many Christians that have a problem with Hell in general, and many do not believe in eternal damnation.

[forgethell]

63. I lost track, which interpretation

do you refer to? But if you are asking if I beleive in Hell, well, yes, I do.

On edit: Knowing some of the evil in the world, I would actually have trouble with an interpretation that didn't include a Hell. This doesn't necessarily mean a Burning Hell, although it doesn't necessarily not, either. It depends on the day, maybe. Some Christians believe that Hell is eternal separation from God, and knowing what you have missed.

[Imperialism Inc.]

50. Out of couriosity. Why didn't God just bring his message to

everyone everywhere (and heck, every time would be nice too). Instead of leaving it up to a small group of people, who were the only ones privy to the truth, to convince them. Surely knowing (since He is God) how much blood , death and hatred it would cause?

[Solon]

58. I'll bite, though I am not Christian...

NOTE: This is my interpretation of Biblical texts in general, do not take as truth and I truly mean no offense, really.

The God of the Bible, Yaweh, or El as He was also known, was a local tribal God of the Caananite Pantheon. The Israelites started out as polytheists, worshipping this pantheon, and adopting some of the stories of the Middle East at the time (Tale of Gilgamesh). Eventually they became the Chosen people of this particular God, and as such transformed to monotheists by worshipping this God at exclusion of all others. Their stories, after many centuries of oral tradition, were written down in the Torah, adaptations of older pagan stories adapted for their specific tribes.

OK that's a summary, feel free to correct me if I am grossly wrong in anything in general.

[forgethell]

64. I don't know

HE didn't consult with me.

[readmylips]

4. Every living thing made by God is Christian....

God made Christ and all living things, therefore, we are all connected to God through Christ. No one can take that fact away from you, no matter which religion you follow.

In western religion, fanatics want the highest claim to Christ by proclaiming themselves Christians. At the same time, it allows them to reject every one else's religion. Being so called christian is not enough for them, now they call themselves born again christians. They lifted themselves to a higher supreme level of holliness. None of this shit is in the Bible or in Christ's teachings. These born again crappers are just real racists jerks.

Look, don't bother yourself with all these man-made christian laws. Pray to God and be a good person. That's what Christ asked of us.

[RandomKoolzip]

6. It's not a "fact," it's an article of faith.

"......we are all connected to God through Christ. No one can take that fact away from you, no matter which religion you follow."


A fact is something that can be proven. The existence of a deity cannot be proven (nor can the non-existence; I know the standard canards in this argument).


Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

[Solon]

7. As far as I'm aware of my Cat doesn't believe in Jesus, or anything

metaphysical that I am aware of. She could be a worshipper of Bast (Goddess of Cats) for all I know. But to say 'All living thing are Christian' just smacks of arrogance to me. I don't worship your God in a different way, or through a different face etc. I simply don't worship Him or His son at all.

[sangh0]

9. In this context, the word "Christian" mean something different

than you think it does. When the poster suggests that your cat is "Christian" s/he is not saying that your cat believes in the divinity of the person known as Jesus Christ. What is meant is that God created the cat. If you believe in God as the Creator of All Things, then your cat is "Christian" regardless of it's beliefs.

[Solon]

12. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say my Cat is Jewish though?

Trying to find a yalmuk for her is going to be a pain in the ass!!! :D

[Az]

14. It would be better to say

That the entire universe and everything in it is Christian in the sense that it was made by the god of Christianity.

Of course this point is debatable. :evilgrin:

[sangh0]

16. Yes, and it would be just as accurate to say

that your cat is Jewish, but it wouldn't be MORE accurate. Jews and Christians (and Muslims) believe in the same God

[Solon]

23. I know that, being a smartass as always...

Though what I do know is that she is a self-theist, she not only believes she's a god, she KNOWS it! :evilgrin:

[sangh0]

30. In that case

please thank her for the lovely weather we're having in NYC today (I can be a smartass too :-) )

[Solon]

33. I would except she is sleeping...

I think she takes a "paws off" approach to world affairs. However, I know when Her Holiness wakes up I will have to put offerings down on the Holy Cat Dish, and of course the Blessed Holy Water. I wouldn't dare to wake her from her Holy Slumber, those lightening bolts coming out of her eyes sting like a MotherF*cker. ;)

[papau]

27. True - by your actions you shall be known -

Here at DU folks play with each other a bit

Just to rattle the other person's cage

But most would grant that much is not known, nor will ever be known (indeed the more science you have studied the more likely one - IMHO - is likely to understand this. Indeed it is more than the fact that creation can not be explained - just described, sort of. - I think organic Chem and Quantum Mechanics have confirmed more than few folks in their religious faith - getting action at a distance with no obvious reaction plus being multiple universed and information theoried and probability field shaped, and then finding that the descriptive -rote memory - world - of organic has gotten worse in terms of "big picture" albeit much better as to new theory of getting from A to B - makes you appreciate the amount of faith that even the most erudite must use daily)

The POV of a Christian is the POV of that individual - every person is their own priest as to interpretation - even when they take guidance from a priest of the church.

The words "Belief", "faith", and "Worship" are used by some folks interchangeably - so one needs a bit more conversation to find out what is meant - not a real problem IMHO. Your answer should be the beginning of a conversation.

To proselytize - to spread the good word - could mean "don't be ashamed or hide your faith" - or it can mean "actively get in folks face because you are doing them a favor by giving them guidance" - which is it? As you say - your religion is right for you- but then we are a judgmental species and whether or not it is our place to judge, we will - again not a big problem - IMHO.

peace

:-)

[sangh0]

5. They use the word "worship" differently than you do

I could be wrong, but I suspect you use the word worship as if it were an observable action, like prayer and ritual, while they use it to identify their attitude towards Jesus and the ideas he preached.

[Solon]

10. Yes...

to worship a God or Goddess means to me to have a particular affinity to them and also reverence for them. This could be observable or not. I believe most Christians would agree with that meaning (could be wrong though).

[genius]

8. You've just been to the wrong Christian Churches.

There are a lot of good ones. New thought Christian Churches, such as Unity would probably be more to your liking. It's a lot like Religious Science (which has a concept of God similar to The Force) except Unity elevates Jesus to more than an enlightened teachers. The Bible Students Church (an international group, with its main priniting facilities in East Rutherford, New Jersey) has thoroughly studied every word of the Bible in every translation and believes that Jesus saved everyone (including the Muslims) 2000 years ago. Most of the people connected with both of these groups tend to be Democrats.

[Maat]

13. I agree, genius, in the sense that...

I'm a member of the Church of Religious Science as of about six months ago. I researched the more liberal groups, and found a church that is most compatible with my beliefs. But my point is ... I was most gratified that there are many good choices. Unity, C.R.S, U.C.C., Unitarian-Universalist, Reform Judaism, Metropolitan Community Churches, etc., etc. And of course, I hope Atheists enjoy being Atheists. Whatever helps someone get along - as long as they believe in respect for others. So, I don't need to put down my Christian friends ... but I make sure to avoid fundies for my own mental sanity - as much as possible.

[Solon]

18. To make it clear, I'm a Solitary.

I practice my religion in the privacy of my own home, though I would like to join a local coven, but they are hard to come by. And yes the Fundies are very annoying at times, though I try to be polite, unless they raise their voices.

[noiretextatique]

46. i've been studying religious science also

for about five years. i'm a bit tired of my church now (politics), but the study has been enlightening and useful.
i never belonged to any church and avoided religious indoctrination for most of my life.
i like religious science because it's tools are very practical and useful: affirmation, meditation, and affirmative prayer. you don't have to be a "true believer" to benefit from these practices...I like that too. and...i am not a true believer, so it works well for me.

[Az]

17. Universalists

The Universalists came to the conclusion that everyone was saved a long time ago. They are now of course 1/2 of the Unitarian Universalists.

[Solon]

20. Actually I don't think that would be accurate...

I'm not a Non-Christian because of Christians, I am Non-Christian because I found a faith that is not Christian that fits ME. Does that make sense?

[bigbillhaywood]

22. He is Risen

[Solon]

25. I don't doubt that...

but I don't worship Him ...I also believe Mithras rose to HIS heaven too, doesn't mean I worship Him either.

[bigbillhaywood]

24. Jesus Saves

In a secret Swiss Bank account run by Jerry Falwell.

[Solon]

26. And SLAM DUNK by MOSES!!!!

or something like that :)

[damnraddem]

28. Why just let Christians answer?

Here's my take as an agnostic (and Catholic by upbringing):
1. For some reason, Christianity has long been hung up on believing the right thing, rather than doing the right thing. Protestants are even more hung-up on belief than Catholics nowadays, but it's the Catholic Church that spawned such things as inquisitions, burning of heretics, and so on. All this from a religious tradition whose founder is recorded as having said something like 'the most important commandment is to love your neighbor.'
2. Since it became an imperial force in the Fourth Century, Christianity has sought to enforce its hegemony by claiming that it is the ONLY way to salvation. Athough some thinkers have allowed that some non-Christians just might be 'saved' as well, they have often been denounced as heretics. This creates a bit of a problem: billions of people consigned to eternal damnation, many of whom have never even heard of Christianity. To some, not all, Christians, this poses the question of how a good God could set up a system by which most of humanity has no chance of escaping eternal torment -- including all those who were born before the era of Christianity. Rather than grapple with the actual issues raised by such a question, the response has been to claim a need to evangelize: go out and make sure that there's no one who hasn't heard 'the word.' Then, if those to whom Christians evangelize don't accept what they hear, the good Christians can claim that the poor sinners had their chance an blew it. A particularly amusing variation can be seen in Jack Chick's comics in one of his anti-Catholic tracts: a Catholic who confessed and had last rights dies and is then sent to hell by a God who recalls that he was once evangelized by a Protestant but rejected the 'true faith' for his Catholic heresy.

[Solon]

32. I feel the problem with many individuals is...

the hang up on specific theologies rather than on the Message itself. Look at this:

Some "Ethic of Reciprocity" passages from the religious texts of various religions and secular beliefs:
Bahá'í World Faith:
"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
Brahmanism: "This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517
Buddhism:
"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18
Christianity:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." Matthew 7:12
"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6
Confucianism:
"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4
Hinduism:
"One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself" Mencius Vii.A.4
"This is the sum of the Dharma : do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517
Humanism:
"(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 5
Islam: "None of you believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 6
Jainism:
"Therefore, neither does he cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.
"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33
Judaism:
"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 8
Native American Spirituality:
"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."
Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
Sikhism:
Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299
Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.
Taoism:
"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.
"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49
Unitarian: "We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles.
Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what every you want to, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). The Wiccan Rede
Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."
Zoroastrianism:
"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29

Some philosophers' statements are:
Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

Examples from moral/ethical systems are:
Humanism: "...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled." Humanist Manifesto II; Ethics section.
Scientology: "20: Try to treat others as you would want them to treat you." This is one of the 21 moral precepts that form the moral code explained in L. Ron Hubbard's booklet "The Way to Happiness."
Original Link Here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

These are examples of the "Golden Rule", to me the reason these ideas are so universal is that all humans have the same senses and common sense as well. All the rest should be up to the individual.

[troublemaker]

45. "Ethic of Reciprocity" question

Since the key is "as you would have them do unto you" rather than "as they do unto you", it seems that reciprocity is almost the opposite of the meaning. Is that a standard phrase?

Not knowing whether there's a standard term I once coined 'empathetic morality' to describe this basic ideal.

On Edit: Poking around the net I see that this is indeed a standard term. Oh well, not the first philosophical term that means the opposite of what it means.

[Solon]

48. I think the basic difference between the to.

Treat others they way you would LIKE to be treated, or treat other they way you ARE treated. I see a problem with the second one, I assume the first one is correct.

[troublemaker]

51. Right, there's no reciprocity

we would LIKE our good treatement of others to be reciprocated, but the scheme isn't presented for its efficacy but as a good unto itself.

So it should probably be the 'principle of unilateral cooperation' or something like that.

[patcox2]

41. Its not a hangup of christianity, its a hangup of people.

Liberals and progressives have their orthodoxies too, and violent arguments erupt here every day between people who are more concerned with beleiveing some particular right thing than doing the right thing. These are the kind who come out with the "your no liberal" line. This common human impulse manifests itself in christianity simply because it is human.

[Solon]

44. Too true...

happens whenever anyone holds strong beliefs about any subject. It is human, and natural actually, for to not hold any strong beliefs would actually stifle progress rather than enhance it. The diversity of Ideas should be encouraged so all have the light of day, and then people are to make individual judgements based on their own experience as to what is right or wrong to them. This is true of religion as much as for political and other beliefs.

[Greenbeard]

35. How many Christians actually do as Jesus taught........

I grew up going to church but have drifted away from the religious establismhent for various reasons. One of the things that has always confused me was that so many claim to follow the teachings of Jesus yet few actually do. His message is an extremely difficult one to accept. How many are willing to give away their wealth? How many really believe teachings such as "blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." I know there are those out there that do their best to put an end to poverty and truly believe that what you do to lowest member of society you do to yourself and God. However, this does not seem to be a fundamental teaching of the christian establisment and that is sad. For that is the message that must be heard. Most of the world prophets have preached something similar. Help the poor of society and that society will prosper and be blessed. Seems like a pretty good idea to me. Who are the majority of individuals that turn to terroism to solve their problems? The poor and oppressed. Maybe it is time we actually started listening to what those we often refer to as "prophets" were actually preaching.

[Solon]

38. New slant on the Jesus Quote:

Maybe he meant when saying "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" as somthing literal. For example, we wipe ourselves out in Nuclear war, and insects take over the Earth, wouldn't that be a fulfillment of this prophesy? (tongue in cheek)

[Greenbeard]

42. lol

In this age that seems to be the only thing that makes sense. Who has time to waste on the poor anyway? (sarcasm)

[Solon]

43. On a more serious note (Not really)

Maybe instead of Meek as in poor and downtrodden, maybe he meant those who are complative about existence, not loud about their beliefs, but quiet and calm....wait a sec, that means the Buddhists are going to take over. ALL HAIL THE GRAND BUDDHIST CONSPIRACY(TM)!!!

[troublemaker]

47. You and me know some very different insects

I've got some pretty bold ones around here.

[patricia92243]

37. Proselytize beause Bible tells us to. Belief and worship are not ........

the same. Again, the Bible does not do this - just a man-made goof.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. Some do place a higher weight on faith/grace than works

It all depends on what branch of Christianity you are looking at.

Evangelism is a huge thing because the Bible (most versions that I know of) place a lot of weight on winning people over for the Kingdom before the second coming.


Personally, I don't go down that "my faith is better than yours" street and neither do other progressive Christians. In fact, the idea that Jesus is A way to God rather than THE way, along with a non-literal view of the Bible, is what separates us from stricter Christian sects.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[checks-n-balances]

53. This is an excellent website

with lots of links to other good ones!

[GreenPartyVoter]

54. Thanks :) I don't have time

to write out my own manifesto, so I just link to everyone else's *g*

[Solon]

55. I know about certain Christians who don't believe...

in the Cloud 9, Angels Trumpeting type of heaven at all. They believe that everyone has an individually unique paradise waiting for them based on likes and dislikes and religious beliefs. Let's put it this way, my Grandfather is probably bowling with God, and playing Blackjack with Jesus right now, and probably has 70+ virgins as well, and he was Lutheran. :evilgrin:

[checks-n-balances]

52. Here are a few articles on beliefnet.com, if you're not familiar with them

a website with articles about many different religions.

Belief-o-Matic
Even if YOU don't know what faith you are, Belief-O-Matic™ knows. Answer 20 questions about your concept of God, the afterlife, human nature, and more, and Belief-O-Matic™ will tell you what religion (if any) you practice...or ought to consider practicing. Warning: Belief-O-Matic™ assumes no legal liability for the ultimate fate of your soul.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

Quizzes about different religions - what do you know about them?
(e.g. How forgiving are you? What kind of Hindu are you? What's your spiritual path?)
http://www.beliefnet.com/features/quiz/index.html

Are We Ready to Forgive?
Desmond M. Tutu argues that although the terrorists committed unspeakably evil acts, they are still children of God.
Interview by Anne A. Simpkinson
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/88/story_8880_1.html

Prisoners and Other Strangers
Jack Miles explains why Christian ethics demand we treat prisoners as we would the Lord
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/146/story_14623_1.html

The Problem With Monotheism
Why the world's two largest faiths, Christianity and Islam, have a tendency to 'turn evil.' Interview w/Charles Kimball by Deborah Caldwell
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/125/story_12546_1.html

Work Like the Dalai Lama
Lessons from the spiritual leader -- 'a tireless worker' himself -- on how to find happiness on the job. An interview with Dr. Howard Cutler
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/131/story_13175_1.html

Ethics and War in Comparative Religious Perspective By David L. Perry
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/145/story_14558_1.html

(Probably more than you really wanted to know!)

[Solon]

56. I know that site well....

Have you checked out http://www.religioustolerance.org/

It has excellent articles on a wide range of subjects, plus the beliefs of religions from Asatru to Zoroastrianism.

[checks-n-balances]

59. Yeah - religioustolerance.org is wonderful! I forgot that you've already

mentioned that one, Solon. Lots of research & in-depth discussion about ways that religions can be tolerant or intolerant. I think there's a lot about RW pathologies unless I'm mistaken.

Thanks for reminding me of that one!

[PATRICK]

57. People of God

There is the crux of your problem. Vatican Council II defined it broadly in terms of faith and living faith according to the chief tenets of the Beatitudes right down to atheists. Well, down does reveal there is a sort of hierarchy but the lesson is that it is the Parable of the Sheep and Goats that is more important than showing up every Sunday for worship or saying the right words or feeling "good about yourself".

On that day these honest people will in puzzled stupefaction ask when they had ever been Christians while the goats whine about unfairness. There are more personal benefits and supports and closeness to the truth(according to our VC II) of course in the fullest and most sincere Church observance. It is dangerous after all to go it alone or with half truths or blindness to what is good. In the end it is the heart and actions that save because that is where God(if God exists) is. In your fellow man. If a worship community hinders you it is a terrible scandal indeed when one has to trust one's own conscience against a support gone bad. Biblical history is full of the latter, depressingly so.

The harshest statements by Jesus AGAINST his own disciples hinges on power trips, arrogant blindness when one is so close to having it all, stopping others from approaching God. That last drove Him up a wall.
Some doubts in the last days before crucifixion at least whether any human institution left behind would last. Would the Church hierarchy harbor any healthy doubts and routine abnegation of pride, have moral strength mixed with compassion in the right way?
Jesus' solidarity with his disciples(whoever causes one of these to sin...) is personal but with mankind general and absolute especially for those suffering and in need. His hierarchy of people concerns is bottom up.

Are all the agnostics, atheists or generic Christians social justice heroes, doing good works for the poor, helping mankind- or just lukewarm "what's in it for me" comfort seekers with nowhere to turn when the chips start falling?
Slipping away from responsibilities and ties when life is good, waiting for a foxhole test of soul to overcome grudges or indifference.

Leave it to Hitler to remind people of the basics.

[Merlin]

61. Christianity is becoming irrelevant to modern, thinking persons.

Christianity has played an important role in human development, providing--on balance--a positive model for human behavior. Adherence was based on blind obedience of average people to more educated prelates who were thought to know all the answers.

Just in the past two generations, in America and Western Europe, that mode of thinking has evaporated. We are now predominately educated, and we want answers proven to ourselves. We refuse simply to bow in obeisance to authority figures.

The problem is Christianity is riddled with logical and factual contradictions.

Consider just a couple of them:
If Jesus IS God, then why did he have to die to "redeem" mankind? Christianity says it's because of mankind's "original sin." Baloney. That was a concept invented in the 3d century.
Does it really make sense that an all good, all just God would hold all mankind responsible for some stupid mistake made by the first man?
Does anybody really believe in the Adam and Eve story? I mean REALLY?
Does anybody really believe in heaven? A place in the sky where we all have wings and where we can eat ice cream without getting fat? REALLY?
How is it that an All Good, All Powerful, All Just activist God would permit evil in the world? It's just not rational.
Does anybody really believe that the God of the Universe, the Creator of this incredible, awesome everything that surrounds and is us, actually keeps tabs on every single human being every single moment of every day, and notes all of their thoughts and actions for all posterity, and actually communicates with them?

These things simply do not square with things that intelligent people can figure out on their own player pianos. They just can not be true. They make nice mythology. But they are wholly irrational. Hence they must be "Believed" rather than known. People must have "Faith" instead of knowledge.

And most of those who have a different view of God--a non-traditional view like mine--are spurned both by the religious and by the irreligious. I am essentially a Deist. I believe there is a God. But I believe all "revealed" religions, such as Christianity, are based on mythology and legend. The Bible, for example, is a bundle of stories, virtually none of which is true. The New Testament was written by people who never even met Jesus and who had an agenda in what they were writing. None of the stories can be relied upon as factual.

It is precisely because of all of these unbelievable beliefs that are adhered to solely by force will by so many believers, that they are compelled to prosteletize -- to gain support from others so as to reinforce a sense that what they believe is not complete nonsense after all.

[Cheswick2.0]

62. Solon, after having read this thread I have to think your question was

not sincere. However if you look up the deffinitions of Worship and Faith they have different meanings.

As for proselytizing, you have done more of that on this thread than I ever have so I will ask you why you feel the need to do so?
Most Christians don't proselytize. It's just that the ones who do make you aware of them.

[carnival]

65. My Answer

Regarding using "belief" and "worship" interchangably, I do not, so I cannot answer that question, though I would speculate that those who do do so out of a sort of linguistic laziness and nothing more.

As for proselytizing, see The Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20)

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I agree that man has not been exactly true to the spirit of the Speaker in exercising this commission.