Why are liberals the only ones defending Islam?

[LostInAnomie]

I participate on another site that has more than its share of devout Christians. The other day a topic came up about Islam and without getting into it the ignorant freepers on the site were saying that Islam advocates death, and does not worship the same god as Christianity.

I have been defending Islam for days (even though I am an agnostic) and I noticed something. The only people who were defending Islam were my fellow liberals on the site. Why is this? Where are the conservative Christians? Why aren't they rising up to fight religious persecution?

Have the Christians lost their way that much that they are willing to let the type of people who used to persecute them tear into another religion?

I just don't get it.

[imax2268]

1. well...

this part of your post should answer your question...

"ignorant freepers"...that explains it for me...

[shraby]

3. The Muslims,

Christians and Jews all have the same God. The God of Abraham. Read the story in the Bible of Abraham and Sarah.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beware the Beast Man]

47. Judaism is not a missionary religion-

Hence there is not as much violent extremism as there is in Christianity or Islam. In essence, there is no obligation by faith for Jews to evangelize others.

[Delano]

49. No Davey - stop! (as Goliath)

Love that pic!

I've never seen Davy look more....oh, never mind. I'm gonna get flamed enough as is it today.

Let's just say it's funny!

[Beware the Beast Man]

52. Hehe heh heh

I'm a closet Davey & Goliath fan...loved that show.

[troublemaker]

56. Islam is not a missionary religion either

[Beware the Beast Man]

57. I'm pretty sure it is

I need to find a good link, but I think it is technically a missionary religion.

[Yupster]

65. My favorite Islamic site is

www.askimam.com.

It's a place where people can ask questions about the Muslim religion and a group of clerics answer them, kind of like a Dear Abby style.

Lots of the questions come from Muslims who have moved to the west and need help in interpreting what is acceptable behavior in their new country. Pretty interesting.

[KuroKensaki]

2. It's the right-wing Christians.

Right-wing zealots will come to the defense of anyone who is being persecuted for his or her beliefs--so long as those beliefs are shared by the zealot.

Check out Joe Scarborough. Always getting angry at librals trying to take away the freedom of religion. Then he brings Ann Coulter on, and she advocates 'invad{ing} their countries, kill{ing} their leaders, and convert{ing} them all to Christianity.'

Referring to Muslims.

[Bombtrack]

13. Although I don't necessarily disagree with that, It's important to note

that not everyone who's annoyed with, to put it mildly, the state of Islam and what it entails, is a moron(most fundy's) or a bitch(coulter) or an asshole(Scarborough).

[coda]

4. Don't know enough about Islam to defend it, in and of itself

I'm probably as ignorant about it as they are, but no doubt if a laundry list of all the bad points(as well as rumors) about Islam (or any faith) is given the Goering Treatment™, it's going to create a brick wall.

"Islam is a religion of peace." No other politician in the history of the Republic has come close to repeating the phrase as often as *. That'll usually get you a whole herd of goats when you mention it. :-)

[Sirveri]

5. You have to remember why they were persecuted.

They were persecuted so much because they were a bunch of PYSCHOTIC FUCKTARDS! They were persecuted because they were basically the Taliban of their days. And people wonder why America has so many problems.

[RafterMan]

6. Nope

They were persecuted because they wouldn't sacrifice to state gods.

The only thing they had to do to avoid persecution was to sacrifice.

[w4rma]

28. Totally incorrect, Sirveri. See post #6. (nt)

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rooboy]

8. Unlike radical Zionism, right Jim?

[RafterMan]

12. And radical Christianity

But I don't understand why people can't object to all three.

Instead, liberals give Christianity and Judaism the treatment while Islam gets a defense lawyer.

[Bombtrack]

15. Well said

And they seem to not realize that Christianity pretty much got past it's whole "kill the infedels" stage about 1000 years ago. Christianity is responsible for allot of really annoying things about our country and our society. But we can probably count on the steady slide of it's stupid dogma effecting us and us becoming freer in the coming decades as it has for the last decades. Unfortunatly Islam is not showing to much potential for anything close to the level of freedom/rights as the worst bastions of right-wing nut christianity remaining in the western world.

[thebigidea]

20. yeah, that whole Salem witch trials stuff happened some other millenia

[Bombtrack]

46. No, just a third of a millenium ago.

Well there goes my whole argument. Because some puritans killed some women in Massachusetts 312 years ago, it must mean I'm wrong and all religions are at equally fucked up stages. My bad.

[DrWeird]

78. And all those christians massacring muslims in the Sudan..

that happened a long time ago too. OK, it's going on right now, but it doesn't count. So stop saying that.

[stickdog]

69. Crusades, Indulgences, Inquistion, Papal Imperialism, Slavery Apologists,

Nazi Sympathizers, Faith-based Warfare

[Bombtrack]

70. And tell me how does that contradict with what I said?

It doesn't. Moving along

[stickdog]

75. You seem to think Christianity is more evolved or something.

It's like you've forgotten that Nazis were (and still are) good, faithful Christians.

When did we "disown" them?

Shit, they litter our current executive branch!

[rooboy]

17. You can object to all three. That was my point.

But how much social unrest do you have from Islam in America, Britain or Australia? Almost none, and certainly not more than radicals of other faiths.

Radical Islam has its roots in the poverty and oppression that is inflicted upon the people who live there. I give radical Christians a hard time because they are in a position to set a better example, yet instead they do things which prop up the dictators who give rise to the likes of Bin Laden.

If you and I were walking past a snake pit and you pushed me in, I wouldn't get angry at the snakes - they are what they are. I would get angry at you because I know that you should know better.

[Jim Sagle]

48. Radical any-religion tends to be backward.

[NuttyFluffers]

9. well that's just not true or nice...

maybe you're in a bad perhaps, but that blanket statement was not cool.

disengage from stress, chill, reflect, and reassess. maybe you'll find that you were a bit brash with that.

[tkmorris]

10. You gotta be kidding

The current Israeli government's handling of the Palestinians DEFINES reactionary. Never mind, it's no use. If recent historical precedent holds up you won't revisit this thread anyway.

I will never understand how such bigoted hatred is allowed to continue at DU. After all that the Jewish people have suffered to find some that react in such a obtuse fashion is disheartening. Understandable in it's way, but severely disheartening. I lose hope for the human race.

[Forkboy]

27. And as you said once

"Sharon is a man of peace doin what he can to make the world a better place"

I think I'll pass on your definition of reactionary,but thanks :eyes:

[Delano]

45. Totally agree.

And any comments saying the same about radical zionism and Fundie Christianity would be correct, too.

Humanity would be better off without fanatic religions.

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

53. Unlike Christianity?<nt>

[Bombtrack]

11. What "religious persecution"? People not liking it on internet message

boards? Wow, I guess I'm suffering from persecution every time some person here bashes me.

I don't understand why so many liberals feel the need to defend Islam in it's current state and what is driving it. The Islamic world uses Islam as the basis for the greatest violations what liberalism stands for known to man.

I understand that different people can read and react to the supersticious dogma that is Islam or any religion in different ways, and you can read and flowery passages from the Q'Ran(Sp?) all you want. But the writing is on the wall that until the middle east moves towards secularization, it's going to continue to be the under the plague of a cheuvenist, corrupt, racist society.

[rooboy]

19. Name me ONE muslim country...

that isn't ruled by either a military junta or royal family that is supported by the United States. Then give us a lecture about telling muslims to secularize.

Why do you think Hamas has so much support in Gaza? It's not because they send out suicide bombers, and you know that.

[progdonkey]

24. Indonesia

The People overthrew the US-supported fascist regime of Suharto seven years ago. It is the most populous Muslim country in the world.

[rooboy]

32. ROFL... now THAT's a funny answer!!!

tell me who controls West Papua!!! Jesus Christ, if you really think the military doesn't control Indonesia, then you must reading some VERY interesting textbooks. The Indonesian military has been - and continues today - slaughtering people in Ambon, Sulawesi, as well as West Papua. Their control is so tight that the media can't get in there at all to report about it, so almost no footage exists of these crimes. But if you look at the thousands the Indonesian security forces killed in East Timor during their independence election, you'll see a good example of their handywork.

And Suharto's ilk aren't gone by a long shot. General Wiranto is now GOLKAR's candidate for the presidency despite being wanted for the war crimes he directed in East Timor. Militarism is very close to the surface in Indonesia because there are massive natural resources there, and huge American investments in them.

And by the way, if Indonesia is as wonderful as you suggest, it makes no difference to my point. Indonesia has over 140 million muslims, but there is a population of about 200 million. It is NOT an islamic country. In fact, when the country was founded under Sukarno (who was removed by Suharto in 1965 with American approval), it's slogan was "unity in diversity". Indonesia's ideal has always been secular.

[RafterMan]

25. Syria

Libya. Lebanon. Iran.

[rooboy]

33. Hmmmm.. let's see.

The clerics control Iran with an iron fist - nope, no democracy there.

Libya - what does the word "COLONEL" in Colonel Gadaffi mean?

And since when was Lebanon an Islamic republic ??

Syria is also a dictatorship - go and protest Assad and see how far you get. Just because you see a guy in a suit running the country doesn't mean the military isn't backing him with muscle.

Muslims don't hate you because you can buy houses. They hate you because you support their dictators. And if you didn't support their dictators, you'd get rid of them like you always do.

[RafterMan]

38. Sorry, I was responding to your post

"...that isn't ruled by either a military junta or royal family that is supported by the United States."

Also, you said "muslim country" not "Islamic republic", so Lebanon's 70% muslim population probably qualifies.

And who is this "you" to whom you are speaking?

[Bombtrack]

59. Muslims hate us because part of the way their "leaders" maintain power

is by scapegoating the west, mainly Israel/jews, and more recently the United States for all the problems these people have from their corrupt. Religion has always been as an evil used to control people, but modern Islam has just been an abomination of such evil. And when a poor uneducated populace is subject to a theofacsist dogma that programs them to believe that societies that don't keep their women in beekeeper suits are evil and deserve to be punished, I don't quite understand how you don't see that factoring into their hatred of us.

Yes I know the "they hate us for our freedom" argument is utterly simplistic and utterly misleading. But so is the argument that it doesn't have to do with Islam. We fucked over the Vietnamese and Cambodians a million times worse and in a more recent period of history and more directly than anything we've done anywhere in the middle east. But who was the last anti-US terrorist from Vietnam you read about? Oh yeah there aren't any.

[hel]

35. Turkey

is a secular country.

[kiahzero]

66. Turkey

Counterexample. QED.

[stickdog]

71. "If somebody told you that God is on your side ...

Well, I was told the very same thing so we know somebody lied."

What's weird is the same mentality that rushes to condemn Islam based on the actions of a few insane people from Muslim nations is the most offended when this abhorrent exercise is applied to similar news items emanating from its own country.

Evil is evil. It doesn't have a specific skin color, nationality or ostensible religion.

[izzie]

14. All beliefs seem about the same to me.

Each seem to have a man like JC who said about the same thing and came from the same place of the mind. It is the 'on the edge' zealots that do us all in. Just look at the KKK and put up any hate group in any part of the world with that. They are all the same.

[Bombtrack]

16. No, that is an absurd rationalization. The KKK is villified in our society

they are treated rightfully so as embarrassing retards. Timothy McVeigh believed that there were enough people who believed in what he beleived in that he would spur a race war, but clearly he was wrong and to 99.999 percent of the US public he is an evil man. Osama Bin Laden, however is a hero to millions of people in the Muslim world.

[izzie]

18. True I made it sound to cut and dry. But-----

People who blow up building are hero's to some people if they take on the govt. So McVeigh is like Bin Larden. Both think the deed is worth the deaths if it makes a point. We have had these type people around for ever. They do it in the name of a lot of things. And all 'churches' have some of the same things running through the beliefs. Right down to what the say about how we should live. And many zealots will take up arms to push the beliefs or how they look at these beliefs. McVeigh took up Waco. if I recall.

[Bombtrack]

50. Yeah but my point is that Islam is unique in it's degree of opposition

to modern logic, justice, and the civilized worlds agreed apon definition of human rights.

And I preffice my use of Islam as Islam as how it is being driven today. Yeah, all religions have their murderous zealots. But here we don't listen to them and we hate them to a large degree. But in most of the Muslim world that is not the case. Tens of thousands of anti-western murderous whacked out minds are being formented and produced by that society and millions more of them sympathize with those peoples goals and methods.

[stickdog]

73. Bullshit. Compare Bush to Bin Laden.

Who has killed more in God's name?

[rooboy]

21. And Stalin was a hero to millions of Russians.

what bin Laden and Stalin had in common was that they stood up to the greatest perceived threat at the time. Don't blame Islam for making bin Laden popular. The USA did that job all by itself.

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

54. about 1/4 of americans are hard core racists <nt>

[Bombtrack]

60. Talk about pulling something from out of your ass

What evidence do you have to back that up? Yeah, that's why Colin Powell is one of the most popular politician/type people in America, and why every 95 percent of the songs on the billboard top 5 are from black artists.

Of course this all depends apon what the definition of a hard core racist is.

[stickdog]

72. Bush is a hero to more Americans than Bin Laden is to Arabs.

Who has killed more people in God's name?

[bigbillhaywood]

79. And anti-Muslim bigots like you should be vilified too.

I'd alert ya, but you toe the line carefully enough to where they won't delete your message. But feel free to alert me and have this one deleted. But I am curious-- have you ever, even once on DU defended Arabs or Muslims? Or maybe the question is this, have you ever passed up an opportunity to criticize them?

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. RWCs believe devoutly in THE ONLY WAY. Therefore,

if you don't believe in Jesus as being THE ONLY WAY, and if you don't adhere to their church's doctrine, then you are a hell-bound heathen. (And this applies to other Christians as well. My FIL, the minister, does not believe that Catholics are Christians. :shrug:)

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. Islam is as diverse as Christianity

Like Christianity, Islam has many different sects. Right now, the extreme conservatives, who are Wahhabists, are getting the limelight. To find out what the rest of Islam is like (and by this I mean the majority), check out some Islamist sites. The one I like is called "Muslim Wake Up" and is run by progressive Muslims here in the US. (http://www.muslimwakeup.com)

A non-threatening way of experiencing a bit of Islam, especially the Sufi practices, is to visit a Dances of Universal Peace meeting. The Dances honor all spiritual traditions, but a lot of them are based on Islam, especially the practice of zikr. Put Dances of Universal Peace in your search engine to find their website (sorry don't have url).

[PATRICK]

26. Who are the Muslims best known to most folks in the US?

Black Muslims. Farrakhan. The oil sheiks. The dictators. Trouble in the Middle east. The movies.

Very very few of the above are people with lifestyles and profiles that any common white Christian can relate to. The people at the people level are nearly invisible or seen through the filters of prejudice.

As for the religion itself, at least any education about it is dryly secular, the net effect being that Christians receiving information in this way see nothing as strong as their own values and Christian lives.
Even if they do accept differences and respect cultures the empathy level is remote, 9/11 and the gas pump is real.

In a cosmopolitan workplace the tolerance truce helps to erase some these barriers and finally get people to see other practitioners of religion as people. First you have to wear down the wary prejudice and the fault finding that reinforces it. Then you have to hope they actually can safely share some of their religion on a non-competitive safe level. usually it is wisely one of the subjects one avoids. Any member of another faith who has flaws seems to fire up latent prejudices in easy confirmation.

The one-sided discussion of character or tenets of a faith, facile use of "history"(a really well-known subject for most Americans!?) is riddled with even worse garbage.

Need more mirrors.(as Jesus would say).

[radwriter0555]

29. THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING! THEY'RE GOING TO RAPE YOUR

WIVES AND STEAL YOUR CHILDREN AND CONVERT YOU ALL TO ISLAM!

THAT is the underlying tone of ALL the hate rhetoric about muslims and islam... the fear mongering is IDENTICAL to hitler's hate of the jews.

[specialsas]

30. Because it works against bush

Anything that helps replace bush is considered fair game.

[GreenPartyVoter]

31. Welcome :^)

[dawg]

37. No

We defend the downtrodden. That's what we do. Our dislike of Bush is based on his policies. Our policies are not based on our dislike of Bush.

It takes no courage to defend what is popular and powerful. It takes no courage to defend that which you agree with, or a group to which you belong. Defending the "other" is a mark of liberalism, and, in my opinion, one of its nobler qualities.

If a Democratic administration came to power and tried to muzzle and silence Free Republic, the overhwelming majority of us at DU would stand up for the Freepers. That's just our nature.

[rooboy]

34. Americans thought muslims were so evil that in 1996...

they got Mohammed Ali to light the Olympic flame.

I would like the anti-muslims on this board to explain to me what protests they were making against Islam then. Otherwise, they should explain what changed in the last 8 years.

[Finch]

36. The difference is between Radical Arab Islam...

...and the more broad based multi ethnic islam...I have know many Muslims and in fact it reminds me a great deal of Judaism in that they had their Religion and their daily lives...and most of them where great and very moral people.

However Radical Islam of the Kind Advocated by Osama, the leaders of Iran and many Islamic leaders across the Middle East and Africa is just plain WRONG...its not about relativism.. Public Executions, Stoning Women, Bricking people up in cells to die this is WRONG as it would be wrong if extreme Mormons, Jews or Christians attempted it...

Thats a Difference that should always be made when talking about Terrorism and Islam in the same breath there is a worrying trend to equate the two.

[Trajan]

39. I am liberal ...

I am atheist ...

I am a secular humanist ...

I, personally, find that ALL the abrahamic faiths share a vision of mankind as 'evil' and unworthy of existence ...

I, personally, find that ALL the abrahamic faiths demean humanity instead of lifting it to greater heights of brotherhood and fraternity ...

I, personally, find that ALL the abrahamic faiths at one time or another, have committed atrocity and indignity by interpreting aspects of their theology through narrow 'exegesis' to 'justify' their inhumane actions ....

Get rid of the magic invisible gods and the theology that promotes them: and focus on the brotherhood of men and the alleviation of suffering ....

[Selwynn]

40. ALL the abrahamic faiths are interpreted by individuals

and not "ALL" individuals interpret their experience of abrahamic faith in a way demeaning of humanity. For some, their live experience before interpreting things through the lens of faith was far more demeaning and far more devaluing. For others that is not the case.

The biggest problem with people like you is that you try to apply all-encompassing declarative statements about "religion" as though it is one entity. Religion as an institution is open to the same kinds of institutional problems and critiques that all institutions are - that they are corruptible and often become a vehicle for control and power abuse instead of whatever it was originally about. Religion as an experience and belief in a persons life is a language and a way certain individuals articulate their experience of the world. Some people's conclusions are ugly. Some are amazingly beautiful.

For every Jerry Falwell there is a Dr. Martin Luther King, whether you see them every day or not. So trying to make statements like this about "ALL" abrahamic faith is a joke. All you can really say is that "ALL" abrahamic faiths are interpreted by individuals in a multiplicity of ways - some of them better than others. Criticize the bad applications, and I'll join you in that. But don't be stupid enough to act like that is unilaterally the case of all people and their interpretations of religion tradition.

There is no universally agreed on statements in these traditions - you need to focus on the individual interpretations and applications of religion tradition, otherwise you're just tilting at windmills.

[Trajan]

41. 'Tilting at windmills'

= rejecting narrow exegetical excess ...

You are defined by the WORST among you: not the best ....

One Mother Teresa (Religious Humanist) is cancelled by centuries (and Legions) of Torquemadas and Urbans and Innocents (Religious Creedalists ) ...

[Selwynn]

64. Bullshit.

I am not "defined" by anything because I am an individual with personal beliefs. I am not "amoung" anyone. If a person goes and rapes women in the name of faith, he does so because he has completely polar opposite beliefs than I do.

What you are saying is like saying that I'm defined by the abuse of Saddam Hussien because we're both male.

[Delano]

62. Nice post.

I guess I can't go into too much detail on my thoughts about this since criticism of Islam seems to get one's posts deleted, but I think your take is right on.

[mitchum]

42. Because all people are entitled to their superstitions...

as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beware the Beast Man]

51. Simple- we live in a Christian society

It is easier for us to criticize Christian ideals because they are more familiar to us.

[troublemaker]

55. Why defend lies?

I'm as sympathetic to Islam as I am to any other religion and I've often risen to the defense of historical Islamic culture, but Islam itself is a pack of lies and delusions just like every other religion.

[ArkDem]

76. Then why would you defend it?

[LoneStarLiberal]

58. Fundamentalism is the Problem, Not Islam

Why would any liberal not defend any major religion? I'm including free thought in that group as well.

Someone made the salient point earlier that all religions are known by their worst examples; this is painfully true in our contemporary discussion of Islam.

There's a whole lot of comfortable ignorance in America about Islam, ignorance that isn't going to go away.

Militant fundamentalists of all faiths need to die horrible deaths. Christians who murder obstetricians and "Aryan Christians," Jews who buy into the cataclysmic racism and militancy of Gush Eminum, Hindus who belong to RSS and destroy mosques, and Muslims who carry violence to non-Muslims under the odious and unethical hatred expoused by Wahhabi-funded madrassas.

Islam is not the problem. Fundamentalism is the problem.

[Bombtrack]

61. Christian terrorists are not sympathized with by millions of Christians

Islam is the only religion dominated by nations of it's persuation that use it as an excuse for an unforgivably racist, cheuvenist, totalitarian society. Yes there are Christian tribes in Africa that are and have been waring with tribes that are muslim that are warring with people worshiping a rock, but for the most part Christianity is populated by people in relatively free liberal societies that by far IGNORE the stupid preachings of fundementalist ministers and the pope.

It is not all relative and it is just such a strawman argument to suggest so. We have Christian morons who make alot of people feel guilty about abortion and masterbation, they have Clerics who make beheadings for such crimes as homosexuality and adultury the law.

[LoneStarLiberal]

63. I Think the Strawman Is On the Other Foot

So since some nations use Islam as an excuse for the underlying negative cultural manifestations, that makes Islam bad and not the culture?

I wasn't trying to make the argument that all religion as systems of belief are relative; I am saying that militant fundamentalists are all cruel and unusual bigots and psychos regardless of what book they look to for instruction, what language they read the book in, or what god they worship.

My return volley would simply be this: I've travelled in the world's largest Islamic state. The Indonesians I met were perplexed at the United States' refusal to censure actions undertaken by the Israeli government that harmed Palestinians while we do censure the Palestinian Authority for actions undertaken from its territory against Israelis. The owerwhelming majority of Indonesians, Malaysians, muslim Indians, and Persians that I have had the priviledge of meeting and knowing as friends don't follow Osama bin Laden's edicts nor do they support or tolerate the actions or teachings of militant fundamentalists.

I don't think you nor anyone else can make the claim that Islam as a religion is dominated by the same set of beliefs that characterize the Wahhabi minority and other militant orthodoxies that are the fringe, not the center, of Islam. That's like trying to tell me that all Jews all believe in the teachings of Meir Kahane or all Protestants turn to Jerry Falwell for advice. There is no support for either of those assertions just like there is no support for your assertion that the entire Islamic world is led around by the nose by militant fundamentalists. That's a comfortable and demonstrably false idea.

I think the strawman is on the other foot...

[stickdog]

74. Sure they are. Think BFEE.

The only reason you think the camparison isn't apt is that you are a classic xenophobe.

[Texican]

67. god Forgot

to tell them to hate muslims. He was too busy talking to RWers.

[noahmijo]

68. I read plenty of posts on here that bash Catholics

And nobody but other Catholics coming to defend against it.

Spend some time talking to real Christians not right wing zealots and be surprised as to how respect of other religions is required.

I defend the freedom of religion, but I don't make it a mission to go and defend the religion of Islam, as like all religions, the religion itself doesn't need to necessarily be defended....only the people being persecuted for practicing that religion.

[DrWeird]

77. Really? I haven't.

I've read post that attack the Vatican, and justly. But I haven't seen "plenty of posts" that attack catholicism, or its practitioners. I have seen plenty of hypersensitive people thinking attacks on the Vatican is an attack on catholicism, but that's like saying criticizing fundamentalis mullahs is attacking Islam.

[SemperEadem]

80. You should ask them

if the country took the "Nero approach" to Christians, should the others religions rise up and protest, or should they keep quiet and reason that the christian religion is about suffering for their faith?