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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 01:50 PM
Original message
Tell us Your War Stories or Freinds or Family War (or antiwar)Stories!
I am SICK of all this flag waving bullshit this weekend. Every real war story I ever hear showed mainly that war sucks!

OK Dad's War Story:

It was WWII in 1942 and dad was 18 his name was Kier. Everyone was getting drafted and dad didn't want to get killed so Kier volunteered so he could pick which service he could get into cause he wanted a safe one! Draftees had to go to the front lines and war was like a meat grinder. Kier went to be a weatherman for the Army Air Force which seemed the safest possible deal. He got to go to school and study weather forecasting.

Basically, he hated it; especially because he hated being told what to do all the time by idiots. He went to Hawaii which I guess was fun and Okinawa where the Japanese bombed him alot. Then he was part of the occupation and the GIs lived with Japanese families, where the Japanese treated them extremely well. He liked Japanese beer and would trade 1 American beer for 2 Japanese beers.

The GI bill paid for my dad's college and law school and basically was responsible for us having a nice middle class life.

Still he hated the war and hated Japanese people his whole life, which I never really understood. When I asked him why, he said that its different after you get shot at and bombed by them.

He always hated war and I would like to think he would be against this one, but he died long before Bush.
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. My grandpa's WWI Story
He was about to be drafted, and was going to go, but then he got into a fight with a guy in a bar, and stabbed him. He thought he'd killed the guy (he hadn't) so he got on a train and headed north to Canada. He ended up fighting in the Canadian Army in Europe. When he came back home, he always flew the Canadian flag along with the American flag. He never got veteran's benefits, of course, but he was proud of his service, and knew that he had served in a global war, maybe more than some others. The Canadian army had treated him quite well, he said. :-)

My other grandpa served in the navy in a wooden ship -- a minesweeper.

Happy Memorial Day -- we remember all our vets, and the kids who are in danger now.

And pray for peace. Who feels it knows it.



http://www.wgoeshome.com
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. A story and a message
Edited on Sat May-29-04 02:38 PM by Stevie D
My dad was a WWII vet. He was with the 276th Combat Engineers. As a scared young kid in 1945, his regiment was marching toward the Rhine River across France after the D-Day guys had cleared the way and made it possible. Their job was to build a pontoon bridge to move heavy equipment, men, and supplies across the Rhine into Germany. Upon their arrival at the Rhine River, the Ludendorff Railroad Bridge at the town of Remagen was still standing, despite Nazi attempts to blow it up. Advancing American troops took control of the bridge.



They were among the first to invade German territory, as the Nazi attempt to blow up the bridge to slow the Allied advance had somehow failed.

They were repeatedly strafed by Messerschimdt planes, took heavy casualties, but managed to get across and secure the bridge for several days, until it collapsed!

My dad and others then took refuge in the RR tunnel on the German side. Dad then realized that he had been clutching the same wrench in his hand for four days.

They eventually escaped safely and the rest is history.

My dad's uncle was one of Jimmy Doolittle's Raiders. He was the bombardier on the last plane off the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Hornet.

On April 18, 1942, Lt. Colonel Doolittle and his men took off from the Pacific a few hundred miles from Japan. Their mission was to drop bombs on Tokyo. As they took off, they knew that they had enough fuel to get there...but not enough to get back. They accomplished their thirty-second mission and flew on, bailing out over China. Unfortunately, many of them were captured by Japanese soldiers. My Uncle Jake was one of them. His incredible story can be read here:

http://www.cpf.navy.mil/pearlharbor/features/0105pow_deshazer.html

Uncle Jake is still alive today, he's 91 years old. My dad passed away last year due to Alzheimer's Disease.

Dad can no longer speak out about the current Iraq war, but as his oldest son, I know he would be appalled at the lack of purpose and direction and the meaningless loss of life

My dad and his uncle and all those others risked their lives so we could live in freedom; so many never came home. We all owe a debt to the soldiers of WWII, and to those of all the other wars, that can never be repaid.

1,056 of them die every day.

To all veterans on this board and everywhere, thank you for your service to our country and its people. It's not about memorials and concrete. It's about what you did for all of us.

And to the privileged, undeserving, unelected punk that illegally occupies the office of President of the United States of America, and to all of the crooked, conniving Republican chickenhawks who did everything they could to ensure that they could avoid service and allowed someone less privileged than you to take your place, shame on you. My war is now being fought in the name of those true patriots who have come before me. You
will not send my son to fight for your sacred profits. I will do everything I can in the name of the real heroes of this country to bring you down and send you to the fate you so richly deserve for defiling our country and our government. You will not find refuge by wrapping yourself in the flag, my flag, OUR flag.

And to you lurking FReepers and DU trolls who so blindly support this treasonous Bush regime, I say this: Shame on you. Some of you have come right out and questioned my patriotism. To you, one word: "Nuts!"

You are a coward to sell out our nation to the Neocon agenda and the radical "religious" right. Your support of this pretend President is un-American.

Long live freedom! Long live the United States and democracy!

That's what dad and Uncle Jake stood for.

And thanks, Chicago Democrat, to you and your dad.
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. My Grandfather was in the Canadian Army during WWI
He repeated the same stories when I was growing up. When he developed Alzheimer's, however, he started telling different stories. The worst one was the first time he bayoneted someone. Bumpa could describe the kid so vividly, Bumpa was about 19 himself. He said the bayonet went in and he could feel the boy's life leaving as his struggles on the end of the bayonet decreased.

Think about that one *.

There's the "glory" of war in a nutshell.

He had other stories. The most vivid was during the Hundred Days, when they broke through the Canal Du Nord and into open country for the first time since 1914. He said the fields of cabbage stretched as far as you could see, "for the Huns to make their sauerkraut".
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Got a few only their my dad's - and happen to be funny. Here's one
Edited on Sat May-29-04 02:51 PM by henslee
During Korean conflict, my dad would freeze his ass off every week, on army manuevers in wilds of NJ. Fed up with tent-living & marching aimlessly in the snow, he resorted to hiding his car in nearby bushes and slipping away weekends to see my mom. One day, heading to his car, he heard the click of a gun and a "Halt". It was an MP but not just any MP -- it was his brother-in-law who knew of my dad's routine and decided to turn him in. My dad promply vowed to kick his ass if he didn't get back in his jeep and move along which he did.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. My great uncle survived the Bataan Death March...
... and his brother, my grandfather, served as a Marine in the Pacific Theater.

I don't know much more about their experiences, because in our family, talk of WWII was immediately squashed by the men. They didn't really let the rest of us in on their stories. I've been trying for years to learn more... I'm getting a little bit closer, as I still have a living great uncle who served in China-Burma-India, who is willing to share stories.

This is an amazing thread, by the way, Chicago Democrat! :D
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. I met a survivor
of the Bataan Death March. He was the husband of a woman who worked in my dad's office. One afternoon, my parents took us over to meet him. He talked about the march, how they had to keep moving all the time & if someone stopped or sat down, they were shot. So the ones who could carried those who could not walk anymore for as long as they could.

He was beaten so much he had scars on his back, which he showed us. I will never forget what those marks look like. Strangely, he didn't sound angry or bitter at the Japanese.

One of my profs in college was a civilian (teenager) captured by the Japanese in the Phillipines. He spent 4 years in the camp. Because they were held at the university (or some kind of school), they were able to keep up with their schooling because the professors were also captured. He said that prior to being captured, he was a rather finicky eater, but afterwards, well, he did have to eat some pretty gross things. He weighed about 125 when the war was over, and even though he was over the age of 18, he had to go back to high school to get his diploma.

I also have a letter written by my grandfather on a transport ship headed off to France in WWI. It's basically "hi folks, i'm still alive" stuff, but he does mention that many of his fellow crewmates (he went into the Navy) looked like "the last rose of summer." My mom would tell me that grandpa would say that many guys during wwi would cut off their big toes to avoid being drafted.

dg
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't much like telling war stories. War sucks. It's hard to forget
what went on in the war for me. I think that making war is about the most inhuman thing we can do to each other. What does war get us? We end up right where we could have been had we used diplomacy. Vietnam took 10 years for the Communists to unite the country. They were ready to do it when the French left but we prolonged it. Now we are trading with the Communists and we could have done that way back in the 1950's.

Really my war was fought for nothing IMHO.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. I think your story is honest, and perhaps why
Edited on Mon May-31-04 05:55 PM by shance
so many that experience war dont want to talk about it.

I think what you said couldnt have been put any better.

Its the most inhumane thing we can do to one another.

Thank you.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Another story
My Dad's best friend Orval was deployed in the Pacific in WWII.

His unit shipped out to the Phillippines after training. They were unceremoniously dropped off on a beach at night. After setting up camp in the dark, they tried to settle in to get some sleep, but of course no one did.

Soon enough, they heard rustling in the brush and quite naturally were scared shitless. A bunch of them opened fire in the general direction of the noise and waited.

When dawn came, they learned that they had inflicted three casualties: Cows.

Orval always maintained that their reaction was justified; after all, they were "enemy" cows.

Orval died of a heart attack five years ago. I really miss him and his sense of humor.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. my paternal grandfather was on the way to Iwo Jima,
but they asked if anyone could drive a mail truck, and he ended up being Guam's postal manager for the rest of the war
my maternal grandfather was drafted into the Nazi army and was captured by the Russians near the middle of the battle line, but sent to an American prison camp, thank God
my mother was aide to a priest who aided the Allies in the liberation of one of the first concentration camps to be done so
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. My grandfather was a Lt of a machine gun unit in WWI
I never knew him, he died when I was young. I have read his diary from the war, he was a serious officer. he was from a small town in wisconsin.
once when i was in 8th grade, i went to my cousins wedding there. an old man came up to me and grabbed me by the arm, "are you the grandson of Clarence?" he asked me. thats my dads name too so i nodded, confused.
"I knew your grandfather, son, he was a great man" he got all choked up and hugged me, sobbing. i was like 12, i broke away, running.

on the way home that night my dad told me a story I'll never forget.

That man was in my grandfathers unit from the same hometown, when they left for overseas, he promised that mans mother he would watch out for him.
one night, during the argonne offensive they were fighting, my grandfathers friend did not come back from a patrol. my grandfather served his watch, and then spent the rest of the night searching alone in no mans land for his friend. he found him wounded in a shell hole and carried him back to the lines. my dad said that his father never spoke of it, but the guy has made it a legend in the town.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. several of my mother's cousins fought in WWII
One was on some So Pacific island in a fox-hole or something. Another US soldier 'dropped in.' They talked a bit and discovered they had both attended Normandy Hi School in St Louis.

My mother told us this story years ago as part of an ongoing story about how you could find Normandy Hi School people everywhere.

My mother also has a story about WWI. She was born in 1913; one day after 1918 she was playing with friends in the neighborhood. She looked up and saw her favorite uncle coming up the street, back from WWI.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. Two Great Uncles Died - Guadalcanal and Leyte Gulf
My great uncle Floyd was on the USS Quincy that went down in a horrible battle at Guadalcanal. The place is now called "Iron Bottom Sound" because of the number of ships sitting on the bottom of it from the battle that night. There is a National Geographic film about the incident called "The Lost Fleet of Guadalcanal". Those who didn't go down with the ship had to deal with sharks until they could be rescued.

Floyds brother Edward was killed in the Battle at Leyte Gulf. I'm not as familiar with that one - I've just heard that it was a horrible one - but weren't they all?

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LuLu550 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. My friend's account of being shot in the back in Viet Nam
still sends chills down my spin. He said he felt like he had been hit by a car and went flying through the air and, he said, "I heard myself screaming...." like it was somebody else. He came home in to the Bronx VA hospital and a wheelchair. And if you have ever seen "Born on the Fourth of July," that is exactly what the Bronx VA hospital looked like....
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. A Peace Story
My good friend is from Louisiana. He still wakes up hounded by nightmares from the war he fought half a century ago. He was in the U.S. Army during WWII and saw duty in France, Italy and North Africa.

He tells the story that when he was in North Africa he would take advantage of his latte-colored complexion by changing into local garb and slipping off of base in Morocco. He struck up a relationship with a Moroccan woman that became so serious he actually MARRIED her then and there. Unfortunately, the vicissitudes of war were unkind to that union and he had to leave her behind.

He and his wife sometimes still talk gaily about his "other wife."

War brings out the worst in people but people's lights can shine in spite of the darkness.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. My great uncle also survived the Bataan Death March
He was 18 when he was captured and spent 42 months in a Japanese POW camp and later was sent to mainland Japan as a slave laborer. He was repeatedly beaten and tortured while in the POW camp in the Phillipines. He had his nipples cut off with a knife, and was crucified, with nails driven thru his hands and feet. They pounded a nail thru his tongue. Knocked out most of his teeth with a rifle butt. He went from a big marine to a stick of a man, and was in the Hiroshima area when the bomb was dropped, and was severely burned. He came back from the war a bit messed up, and drank himself into some sort of oblivion, but got sober in later years and stayed that way until his death. He was the first recipient of the POW plates in his state, and was buried with honors in a military cemetary. He had been awarded a botload of medals and honors. He died of cancer of the mouth and throat which he was sure he got from his time as a POW.

I regret never having met him myself. As my Grandfather's youngest brother, he was never mentioned, and was refered to as being dead long before he actually was. No one in my family knew where he was for decades.

I found out by doing genealogy and finding his widow living in Missouri. She sent me a large packet of news clipping, etc.

I will honor him this weekend, even though I never knew him.

RL
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here's another one I just remembered
When I was a kid, and in boy scouts in the early 70's, a gentleman named Warren showed up at my house one day to speak to my dad, who was scoutmaster of the troop. He said he was back from Viet Nam and had no family or anything to do, and was looking for some way to help, keep busy, etc. He had been in our troop as a kid, and wanted to be an asst. scoutmaster and help out. Many folks thought this odd, but my Dad didn't bat an eye and took him on. They also became close friends, although they were 25 years apart in age. Warren became a regular at our house, especially around dinner time, and became a very good scout leader.

I got to hear many stories while he and my dad sat around the kitchen table, or at the campfires on scout campouts. He had been a Navy flight engineer on a P-3 Sub Chaser and had been shot down during the war and spent a night drifting in the sea before being rescued. He also flew on planes that he had later found out were dropping Agent Orange.

After a few years, he had gotten married, divorced, and we were all done with scouts, and he kinda drifted away, and then it was years we didn't hear from him. Then out of the blue he called my dad to say goodbye as he was in the Mayo Clinic dying of a brain tumor, which he blamed on the Agent Orange. He was dead at 31 yrs old.

I never really appreciated what he had gone thru and what he had done for us kids in the troop until many years later...

I will honor his memory this weekend also...

RL
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Curious Dave Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. Ashamed
Served with the 4th Bde of the 1st ID (Mech), the Big Red One, during the first Bush oil war, with NATO in former Yugoslavia, and the 10th in Somalia. Way too much Army time for an Air Force guy :)

I seem to remember Bush 1st promised us a program for energy Independence at the end of that one; we're 13 years into what was supposed to be a one year commitment in Former Yugoslavia; and Somalia is still a mess! Lets Face it, our military hasn't accomplished a damned thing to be proud of since the end of World War 2. With 20/20 hindsight I can see that all I did was waste about half my life in the military. I guess thats the price I pay for being a slow learner (politically speaking)! I'm ashamed to even admit I'm a vet anymore.
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ludwigb Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-30-04 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. No need to be ashamed
Those wars were mostly fought for good causes. Especially Yugoslavia.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. My dad was in the combat engineers in WW2
He was in France and Germany. He didn't talk about it with us kids, and the only time he probably did was when an old Army buddy of his visited once. I was way too young to pay attention to their discussions.

When my first husband (also Army) and I were headed off to Germany in the 70s, I was excited about my mom and dad maybe coming to visit. My mom was excited about the possibility tho my dad said, "I've seen as much of Germany as I ever want to."

After my mom's death (dad had died 10 years earlier), I ran across the photo album my dad had made of snapshots he'd taken during the war. There were shots of he and his buddies, of course, some shots of Paris (where he bought my mom some hats!), the like. And then there were the snapshots of stacked bodies in a concentration camp. I don't even know which camp. My dad had never once mentioned it. How horrifying it must've been. It was quite horrifying enough to see the photos and know he'd been there.
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. In 1943, my great-uncle was shot down and killed off the coast of Germany.
All my grandfather ever said about his brother was that he had been shot down and his body never recovered. To our amazement last year, we found out that in fact his body was identified and buried in 1948 in Belgium. Apparently, grandpa never shared that information with the family (we're German and we don't talk about stuff.) The next time I go to Europe, I want to go to Belgium because it seems so sad to me that no one in our family has ever seen where he is buried.

My uncles were in the Army in WWII and said they met Russian forces in Germany. My father was drafted and stationed in Germany in the 50's. He also went to college on the GI bill.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. My dad enlisted in the Army Air Corp the day after Pearl Harbor
and reported for duty on Dec 31, 1941. He refused officer's training because he was so gung ho to get into the action. He did his basic training in Texas and then went to South Carolina for training on Mitchell (B25) bombers.

He was sent to the Pacific in early 1943. His mother made the trip from Minnesota to San Francisco before he shipped out. Not an easy trip in those days. I asked her once about that trip, but she couldn't talk about it - even 40 years later seeing her youngest child go off to war was too emotional a subject - even knowing he came home safely. Once when I was in San Francisco, I took the ferry ride out to Alcatraz and, on the way back into the city, all I could think about was what must have gone through my Dad's mind when he came home and saw the Golden Gate Bridge come into view.

Pop was a Staff Sergeant, a rear gunner a Mitchell. He was part of the 345th Air Apaches, his squadron was the 499th "Bats Outta Hell", his first plane was the Shif'less Skonk which made a crash landing on some island. My dad was declared MIA, his sister intercepted the telegram and showed it only to my grandpa. They decided to keep it from my grandma until they heard more. Luckily, the telegram was wrong - all members of the crew had survived and were found pretty quickly. They named their 2nd plane Lil' Shif'less.

He took part in 56 missions and, in the end, came home with four bronze stars, the Air Medal and a hatred of war. And, he was one of those who didn't talk about it. Except, he always swore that he would never allow my brother to go to war.

He died in 1965 of a heart attack. He was 44 and I've been wishing all weekend I could talk to him.

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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. My father-in-law was in WWII in Germany
Edited on Sat May-29-04 11:08 PM by Catt03
His division entered Germany right after Berlin was taken. He was very upset when they went through Bergen Belsen. Still gets overcome with emotion when he speaks about it.

My uncle was in Korea and received a purple heart. He refused to talk about it and was different when he came back according to my aunt. I think he suffered from PTSD.

I married a man who was an ordinance specialist who designed bombs for Viet Nam. He would be testing somewhere out in the Gulf and I would be protesting in Washington. Needless to say he is an ex. He has a Bush/Cheney sticker on his SUV and I have a Democratic Underground. WE do not speak during presidential elections. :eyes:
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-29-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. Part of what I wrote 18 months ago ...
After a night of stark terror and only brief flashes of recollection in Tet69, I went the next morning over to the AT&T long lines installation to make a call back to the states ... to allay any concerns. After standing in line for some hours, there was a lunch break. I went over to the infirmary with a grunt I was in line with, to do lunch in their mess. We walked through an are where they were interrogating a couple of the surviving NVA 'soldiers' we'd rounded up in the morning mop-up operations who were being treated for their wounds from Claymore mine firings. The two of them each had about a dozen oozing shrapnel wounds ... and C-ration can openers on chains around their necks. They were in shock, terrified, and only about 15 years old. They'd been on the HCM trail for over a year, with barely enough provisions to reach our post - their target. They were told that our perimeter was guarded by WACs and clerks who went to sleep around 1am. They were told it was a "walk-on" and that they'd be able to eat our C-rations when they did their job. What they encountered was miniguns, huey, puff, spook, M50's, M70's, triple concertina razorwire, and napalm in the morning. Out of a battalion, three got through. For a very short time.

I got to see kids who were lied to by their "leaders" -- their parents' generation -- and sent to die. A battalion of them. Terrified kids who were told they'd be vivisected by the enemy if they were captured. Many kids whose very lives, no matter how promising or beloved, weren't even worth their elders telling the truth. Kids that I'd helped try to kill -- and would again. Lest you think war is sane, please allow me to disabuse you of that notion.

Over the decades, I've heard and read many, many people confidently and proudly pontificating, in a libidinous cultural lek of group-thinking, on "the reason we were in Vietnam." There are many opinions available, free for the taking -- and almost worth the price. But not the cost.

On that day in 1969, I realized "the reason I was in Vietnam." Lies. Both because of them and to fight against them. Lest you think war is sane, please allow me to disabuse you of that notion.

Today, our nation and our world is infested with "leaders" who are lying. Lying to themselves, to us, and to future generations. They do not even possess the ability to be truthful in labeling themselves, flying the stolen honored banners of "patriot," "Republican," "journalist," "pundit," "American," and "Democrat" alike. Knowingly lying and not valuing truth above their narcissistic, corrupt, and greedy addictions to wealth and power -- an addiction which, like all addictions, is the obsessive hunt for "happiness" and "security" -- neither of which are even remotely attainable by those who cannot find them within themselves. Like all addicts, they have no allegiance to anything but their addiction -- not nation, not neighbors, not family, and not even their own children (who're often inheritors of their addictions). Codependence is not allegiance.

These are pathetic, shriveled souls whose sole use for words like "justice" and "compassion" and "democracy" and "integrity" and "responsibility" is as marketing their particular brand of exploitation -- since those words cannot connect to anything within an atrophied psyche drenched in the obsession of their addictions. They deserve the compassion of those who, unlike them, are capable of it. They do not deserve to lead or be emulated.

What do we, the people, deserve? We deserve exactly what we've allowed to happen. When our right to vote was abridged, we drove our gas-guzzlers, watched TV, ate fast food, and blamed our neighbors. When the protections of the Constitution were overrun, we drove our gas-guzzlers, watched TV, ate fast food, and blamed our neighbors.

We will reap only what we ourselves sow. We've lived for far too long consuming the inheritance of our forebears and mortgaging our children's futures. It's called "justice".

Sang loi.


Y'all can read the rest at http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5010&forum=DCForumID60&archive=

It's a pretty decent thread, I think.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-30-04 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
23. My dad was a WW II vet, career military, yet he

never talked about his war, which was spent in the Pacific. Now that I'm doing genealogy, I've thought of seeing if I can get his records but I'm not sure I want to know what he didn't want to tell. We were stationed in the Philippines ten years after WW II and the war damage was still quite evident there so we talked about the stories of what happened in our village during the war, we went on an "excursion" to Corregidor, we discussed the Navy's insensitivity in reassigning our neighbor, who had been on the Bataan Death March, to duty in the Philippines. We just didn't talk about Dad's role in the war.

From his youngest brother (also a WW II vet), I learned that my dad was very close to their first cousin, who was an Army medic decorated for valor and KIA somewhere in Italy, body not returned. I had never even heard of this cousin and I wonder why my dad never talked about him.

I mentioned this to a friend who served in Korea and he said he never talked about his war, either. He said it wasn't really that he avoided the topic but just that it didn't interest him, that mostly he just remembered the cold and the noise. And the waiting. He also was of the opinion that the old vets you see on television talking about how they remember every minute of D-Day are lying their asses off. My father held a low opinion of veteran's groups, too. Having been urged to join with the "selling point" being to have a place where he could drink cheap beer, he had a low opinion of them, pegging them as guys who spent too much time boozing and telling lies. Probably both true of many and still an unfair generalization.

Whatever they did, and whatever they're like today, our veterans served our country and I'm grateful to them, those who served in peace as well as those who served in war. If they were ordered to fight wars that shouldn't have been fought, the fault was not with them but with those who took the nation to war.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-30-04 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
24. You know there is an interesting theme that runs thru this thread
how the veterens were reluctant to talk about their wartime experiences, its almost in every story. why is that do you suppose?
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playahata1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. They have experienced the ugliness and the horror of war, and they don't
care to relive it.

I had two great-uncles who served in WW II, a great-grandfather who served in World War I, have uncles and cousins who also served (mostly in peacetime).
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BlackVelvetElvis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. My father served during the Korean War. He never spoke of it.
Except to say he almost lost his deep faith because he saw children starving and selling their bodies to the troops. The only other time he spoke of it was when he described seeing a soldier next to him blown to bits and eating their meals sitting on frozen stacked body bags. He was 21, I wonder how he handled it so well.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. kick
:kick:
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. My father was stationed in the Phillipines.
He was a young surgeon at the time.

He didnt talk much about the War, but he did tell me a few times of sniper bullets flying through the operating room, and of checking the beds for millipedes (?) which had a fondness for burrowing between the sheets.

After my father had died, my brother was going through his things and found a Bronze Star he received during the War. He had not mentioned it to us, which was not unlike my father.

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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
30. Alexander helped liberated Bergen Belsen concentration camp
Edited on Mon May-31-04 06:25 PM by MAlibdem
Alexander C*: Witness to Bergen-Belsen

Alexander C now lives in , Massachusetts. He witnessed the greatest cruelty of humanity, but learned from his experience and led a fruitful, good life. For all that he has seen, he maintains an optimistic view of humanity with the knowledge that the only way to defeat evil is with good. The horrors of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp left him wiser, but stronger as a person. His evolution represents a greater evolution of the American people’s awareness.

Alexander C was born in 1924 and grew up in Dorchester. He describes himself as a real “improper Bostonian” . He studied hard and attended the Boston Latin School, one of the premier secondary schools in the Boston area, and then started at Boston College. Mr. C then volunteered for military service in order to choose not only the branch of service but also what job he would have in the military. Mr. C had been interested in chemistry in school, and so he chose chemical warfare. Mr. C completed basic training at Camp Sibert in Alabama. Mr. C then “was slightly horrified to learn that the next step was going to be to send me to a toxic gas handler school were I’d be handling some of the stuff you read about today, nitrogen mustard gas” . In order to get out of chemical warfare, Mr. C applied and was accepted into a German linguist program at Boston University. The purpose of the program was to train “German linguists to interrogate German prisoners and that kind of duty, presumably when the allies were going to launch D-Day.” Mr. C attended a German immersion program at Boston University for six months where he learned everything about German politics, economics, history, and culture. After this training in German, C was sent to a school for interrogators at Camp Ritchie in Maryland. Immediately following the end of the training the whole class of interrogators at Camp Ritchie, including Mr. C, were promoted from Private First Class and Corporal and commissioned as lieutenants. C himself was commissioned as a Lieutenant Second Class.

Following his graduation from interrogator school, Mr. C was assigned to an infantry division !!!€!!!. This division landed at Normandy four days after Operation Overlord began. According to Mr. C, even four days after the invasion began “the beachhead was still a mess. ” In the division Courtney was responsible for tactical intelligence, interrogating German prisoners for information about the battlefield such as the positions of German guns. Mr. C stayed with this infantry division for a few weeks until “they lost in a battle at St. Lo…This unit lost almost two full regiments of men. They lost so many they had to reform. ” While the division was reforming, C was reassigned to the PW and X Detachment, variously known as the 6801 MIS-X and the IS9 WEA Detachment, to lecture allied troops on how to evade capture, resist interrogation, and escape imprisonment. C talked to about 150,000 troops during most of the rest of the war. C’s service was vital in keeping American troops alive and denying intelligence to German forces.

Instead of rejoining his reformed division, C was sent to operate with the Twenty First British Army Group. C’s task was to debrief any American prisoners of war that the British might come across as they liberated German prisoner camps while sweeping through northern Germany. C and his jeep driver were the only other Americans with the British. However, there was also a Frenchman, a Pole, and two Russians, each who had been sent for the same purpose that C had. The Russians, C recalled, were a particularly brutal bunch. In general it was known that the Russians and Germans held a special, and deep, hatred for each other even before the war had begun. These Russians, who carried guns which took the same bullets as the British firearms, would go out into the German countryside and bring back chickens, eggs, and other kinds of food. We then returned they would need more ammunition, which the British were happy to equip them with. C recalled that everyone knew how the Russians had acquired these various provisions, yet no one dared to ask. While many of the soldiers might have found the slaughtering of civilians to be gruesome, no one could prepare them for what they would experience next.

In April of 1945, the Germans were on the retreat and the Allied forces were readying for the final push towards Berlin. Courtney and his British counterparts were heading towards Hamburg, near the Elbe River in the north of Germany. Courtney recalls the events of April 15: "We were north of the city of Hanover and in a town called Celle, when the British received a communication from the commanding officer of this concentration camp called Bergen-Belsen. And the reason for the communication was that they were asking for a truce because in the camp they had a typhus epidemic. "This typhus epidemic had been caused by fleas, and the cramped, inhumane living conditions of the camp only served to exaggerate the problem."

When the C and the British arrived they were in total shock. No one had ever seen anything that terrible. C said that he did not want to be there and that he wanted to go home. And these were the feelings of the soldiers before they had actually entered the camp. When they did enter they found around twenty thousand dead bodies on the ground. The rest of the inmates were in no better condition, most were half-naked, malnourished, and others were suffering from typhus. The British quickly set up a field kitchen were they served the inmates soup; they were still around ten to fifteen thousand prisoners, most of whom were Jewish. Even with the British field kitchen functioning, 200-300 prisoners died every day for several days after the British arrived from various ailments . These Jews came from Poland or other German occupied lands. Lucy S. Dawidowicz remarks in her book about the nature of the camp: "Special Camps for “foreigners” – Jews who, with money, influence, or by virtue of elite communal status had acquired Paraguayan or other citizenship and were hoaxed into believing that they were being held for exchange."

After the British had tried to deal with the starvation of the inmates and the condition of the camp, they began the grueling and horrid task of burying the twenty thousand or so dead bodies around the camp.

The commandant of the camp, Joseph Kramer, and the leader of the female guards, Irma Grese, were both taken into custody by the British forces. Kramer later was executed for crimes against humanity, Grase was imprisoned. Meanwhile, most of the SS guards stayed at the camp. C remembered that he “would have taken off like a big tailed bird and got out of there” if he had been in a similar position as the SS guards because “they were immediately pressed into service .” In order to deal with the huge numbers of corpses strewn throughout the camp, C remembers that the British “dug five enormous trenches…and were forced, usually at the double, to pick up bodies…then bring them down and toss them into these enormous pits. And they put 5,000 bodies into each pit. ” Lime was used to disinfect and reduce the smell of the corpses, C recalls that “they’d put in a layer of bodies and then they’d put in a layer of lime…and then they’d throw in another layer of dead bodies. ” C remembers that: “From my observation, although it sounds horrible, the people in the pits looked like the most peaceful people in the camp.” The truly grisly task of burying the bodies was made somewhat easier to accept for the Allied forces because German civilians from the surrounding towns were forced to witness the genocide that had occurred only a few miles from their homes. No one would be able to claim with any shred of credibility that these murders had not occurred.

Because of the typhus outbreak in the camp, Dr. D, a member of the American Typhus Commission, was flown up to the camp. Mr. C accompanied Dr. D throughout the camp. In the camp a woman grabbed the leg of C’s pants and asked for medical attention. C called to Dr. D, who came over and examined the woman, “He pressed his finger into her leg and he explained ‘it’s a normal thing…you release that pressure and the flesh will just snap right out.’ This girl’s leg just came out as if you filled a pen with ink, the bladder of a pen, it just came out as slow as could be. He says ‘No point fooling around, she’ll be dead in an hour.”

This woman’s condition was only one such tragedy of thousands in the camp. C recalls that “half of them were half-naked and the camp conditions were so atrocious that it didn’t make a difference, man or woman, if they had to relieve themselves, they just did so wherever they were in the camp.” The camp was truly hell on earth.

Only a few miles away, in the town of Belsen, German citizens had gone on with their lives throughout the duration of the war. With a location so close to the camp, its seemed hard to believe for many of the British soldiers and for C, that the German people were unaware of what was going on. Following his first day at Bergen-Belsen, C was returning to Celle through the town of Belsen “which was…about 2 and a half miles away from the camp. Two and a half miles away from the camp you could very, very clearly smell the camp, because two and a half miles wasn’t enough distance to stop that odor.” All German citizens were ordered to turn in all weapons to their police stations. In the town of Belsen C’s jeep pulled along side “a young woman pushing a baby carriage on the side walk.” C asked her “Where is the police station?” in German. The woman explained to C that the people of Belsen were very lawful and so they did not have a police station. There was no police station in Belsen, even as the mass murder of thousands of innocents continued only two and a half miles away. A guilty finger that pointed even more readily towards the German civilians’ compliancy in the mass executions of Jews was that in the town of Celle there was a factory that made prison uniforms. It is quite obvious that the German civilians knew of the horror which went on in Bergen-Belsen. C commented that he believed that in any society there would be people who would do the exact same thing that the Nazis did in Germany.
After C and the British had dealt with Bergen-Belsen they moved on to Hamburg. They did not stay long. For as the war began to come to a close, C and his jeep driver, eager to return to their regiment, rushed back to Paris on May 6. They arrived two days later on May 8, the day of final surrender of German forces or VE Day. C had arrived just in time for the giant parade on the Champs Elyess and victorious merriment that took place afterwards.

Although the war had officially ended in Europe, C was to stay on until December of 1945. His job was to go to Holland, which had been occupied by the Germans, and debrief members of the Dutch Résistance movement who had helped American pilots who had been shot down move through Holland and France, finally crossing into neutral Spain. Because C did not speak Dutch, he was set up with a translator, also a member of the Résistance, named Bob G, whose family had an equally interesting story. During the war, the G parents, Bob, and his older sister, were all involved in the Résistance and they had all been caught by the SS. The G sister had been tortured, burned with cigarettes and given an enema with boiling water, but she refused to break. She was then sent to a concentration camp, but when the King of Sweden ransomed several of the camp’s inmates, the sister went to Sweden for the rest of the war. Bob G and his parents were tortured as well, but none of them gave up any information to the SS. And miraculously all four survived the war. Finally in December of 1945, C was allowed to return home after learning that his father had suffered a heart attack and died. After returning home, C was sent to Fort Carney Prison Camp in Rhode Island to be the executive officer because he lacked sufficient points to be discharged from the Army. But C was not there long and he wished to return to college, at long last.

C had wanted to return to Boston College, but the administration refused to honor the credits he had received as part of his wartime education at Boston University. Instead he enrolled at Harvard University, where he majored in German Literature and Language. He received his diploma in 1947. The commencement speaker was one George Marshall, who in that very speech announced his plan for the reconstruction and recovery of the European nations, this plan came to be called the Marshall Plan. C then attended Harvard Business School where he earned his MBA and had a fine career in business.



*Names removed to respect the privacy of a great man who helped me with an important research project.
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Mr Creosote Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. My Uncle
served in Bomber Command during the War. On 15th December 1944 he was killed following a raid on Ludwigshafen. This event destroyed my mother's family - both her parents were dead within 2 years. My aunt, 60 years on, is still racked with guilt that she didn't say goodbye to him on his final visit home. Until last year we did not know where his body is, but I believe I have now located it.
I'm not so naive to believe that war isn't sometimes necessary, but if you're going to have a war you'd better be sure that war is the only remaining option, and that you're actually fightong the right enemy.
My uncle was 19 when he died.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. kick so more can read these stories
:kick:

RL
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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. re-kick
kicky
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-31-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
34. Memorial Day kick*
n/t
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