No communion for contrary Catholics: a good idea?

[CShine]

For practicing Roman Catholics, to be denied communion is the most grievous punishment possible short of excommunication from the church. The readiness of a handful of US bishops to deny that central sacrament to presidential candidate John Kerry and other politicians who support abortion rights has stirred consternation among the faithful. Some accuse the hierarchy of inappropriately injecting itself into partisan politics, and in a way that could arouse anti-Catholic sentiment. To others, it just doesn't make sense as a way to treat believers.

"We haven't had situations in my lifetime where people have been identified as public sinners - presumably we've come some distance from the Middle Ages, when they used to do that," says Terry Carden, a doctor who is head of the Voice of the Faithful chapter in Tucson, Ariz. "And it's unbelievable that people are being on the basis of their political positions, not on active behaviors of their own." But others say the bishops' insistence that Catholic politicians hew to church teaching on abortion and other related issues is overdue.

"It's a longstanding scandal that most of the bishops in years past tried to finesse or evade their responsibility in calling Catholics to account," says the Rev. Richard John Neuhaus, editor of First Things, a journal on religion and public life. "That's the job of bishops - to be concerned about the spiritual welfare and make sure the church's teaching isn't fudged or compromised in public."

The issue came to the fore as Senator Kerry - a longstanding supporter of a woman's right to choose abortion - emerged as the presumptive Democratic nominee and first Catholic major-party candidate for president in 40 years. Church officials had long been distressed by the large number of Catholic officials who support abortion rights, and last year Pope John Paul II issued a document on the responsibilities of Catholics in political life. He also made it clear that bishops should take some action.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0528/p11s01-lire.html

[Hailtothechimp]

1. Of course not. Kerry should defy it every way he can.

If the catholics want to go down this road, let their tax-exempt status be taken away. The church is so starved for money (since paying off molested children isn't cheap) that they would back off pretty quickly.

[dave29]

2. In other religious news

more people blew each other up today because of their faith

The joys of old time religion.

[Mz Pip]

3. My personal choice

was to leave the Church. I remember sitting in church and the priest was giving a rousing hellfireanddamnation sermon about birth control. This was back in the 60s. He said "If you don't agree, we don't want you."

OK, fine. That was it. I left. THey didn't want me. End of discussion.

I have little use for people of any religious belief insisting that their belief system becomes part of public policy. That's what they do in Iran and look how terrific that place is run.

MzPip
:dem:

[koopie57]

9. in my little town

if the priest was not drunk and did not forget half of the mass, his sermon was abortion is a sin, don't have an abortion; give more money to the church, give until it hurts and then give some more, and always ended it with "I am a very busy priest, everybody wants me to come to their house for dinner, and sometimes I just need to rest at home, so please don't keep inviting me over for dinner unless it is a very special occasion" and interspersed through the sermon were long sighs, moans, groans, and eye rolling. Needless to say it was uplighting and awe inspiring.

[LibDemAlways]

26. Thanks for that. Agree that

"uplifiting" and "awe inspiring" aren't terms generally associated with sermons delivered by Catholic priests. My all time "favorite" was the elderly pastor of a small Central Cal coastal vacation area who cleared his throat after every other word, which was "uh" so the sermon went something like "Uh, (throat clearing noise) Jesus, uh, (throat clearing) said, uh, (throat clearing)...."

Truly, most of these guys are clueless. I don't think "Sermon Delivery" 101 is taken seriously enough at the seminary.

As for the communion issue, these days the entire congregation marches forward for communion handed out by ordinary parishoners.
This whole "controvery" is a non-issue and trumped up by the repuke press to remind people that Kerry is a Catholic - and not a "real" (wink, wink) Christian.

[Career Prole]

4. If they intend to go ahead with this then they'd better bar all

Catholic contraceptive users from the sacraments as well...otherwise the Catholic hierarchy just shines a brighter light on its own hypocrisy.

[mom cat]

20. This is clearly selective punishment. What about withholding

communion against others who violate church policy against this illegal war. How about the recent reward of Cardinal Law who covered up years of abuse of hundreds or thousands of children. Hypocrisy! Yes, the tax exemption for any church that engages in such blatantly political activities should be withdrawn .

[kiahzero]

5. If the Church feels like paying taxes, that's their decison

The country could certainly use the money.

If they want to become a political organization and pay the resultant taxes, fine.

[Wind Dancer]

6. This is disturbing

and I totally disagree with the churches view on this. Again, everything has become political - I'm running out of words at this point, the week's news have left me very depressed and afraid for our country.

[despairing optimist]

7. No Catholicism for sane people: a better idea

If people need to support a church, they should support one that supports them back, rather than one that needs 400 years to apologize for what it does instead.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. The bishops should appeal to Catholics to

examine their consciences more stringently. They're doing their job when they do that. Churches are supposed to "comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable," helping us see where we have erred.

In general, though, the bishops should NOT refuse the sacraments to anyone.

They also need to broaden the range of sins that concern them.

[DaveSZ]

10. It's sad really

The entire thing reminds me of Pat Robertson herding his sheep into the voting booths.

:(

[saigon68]

11. Pat does Have Sheep lots of SHEEP

They will soon have their children KILLED FOR HALLIBURTON "profits"

[Hekate]

12. This "controversy" has been manufactured by the right wing...

...with the usual helpful assist from the American "news" media, who live for uproar, and nuance be damned.

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/cl-et-rutten22may22,2,3464564.column?coll=cl-calendar

If you can get to it, this is an excellent article. Rutten points out that "the Church" didn't step into it, and only 4 out of some 300 US bishops are participating in it. (see below for a short excerpt on how it started)

The faux controversy, as he calls it, serves some useful purposes for the extreme religious right: it besmirches Catholic politicians (who are largely Democratic on the basis of Church teachings on social justice), it particularly targets Bush's opponent John Kerry, and it encourages latent but real anti-Catholic sentiment among Protestants. It's also a wedge the extreme-right in the US Catholic Church hope to use to alienate mainstream Catholics from the Democratic party (again, teachings on social justice make being a Democrat attractive). I would add: it further blurs the boundary between church and state in the public mind, and that also serves the extreme religious right.

Personally speaking, I think it's kind of unseemly for non-Catholics in this country to take sides in religious issues that affect only Catholics, like who should be allowed to take Communion. That is a matter that falls strictly within the bounds of a religious institution, and as long as they are breaking no civil or criminal laws, it's their business only. Who receives or does not receive religious rites in a church, temple, synagogue, or shrine is a matter decided by the members, not the talking heads and ranters on tv and radio.

Hekate
non-Catholic

Excerpt:
>The sequence of events began late last month in Rome, when Cardinal Francis Arinze, the prefect of the Vatican's Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, held a press conference to announce the clarification of certain liturgical practices involving the Eucharist, as Catholics call Communion. Pretty intramural stuff.
>
>But in the question-and-answer session that followed, a couple of correspondents for conservative U.S. news organizations repeatedly badgered the Nigerian cardinal about whether American politicians who cast votes for abortion rights should be allowed to receive the sacrament. A weary Arinze finally said that there is a Catholic Church in the United States, it has bishops and the issue was theirs to deal with pastorally.
>
>That gave the American right the opening it had been looking for. For some time, an influential group of conservative Catholic laypeople has sought to use the abortion issue as a two-edged sword: As theological traditionalists, they want to use electoral politics to achieve within the church what they otherwise cannot obtain — a purge of those who disagree with them. As social conservatives, they hope to use the church's theology to win through religion what they cannot achieve by politics — alienating Catholics from the Democratic Party, whose platform is broadly in agreement with the bishops on a host of social and moral issues.
(end excerpt)

[wackywill]

17. Seems to me

that a "Christian" could only be a vegetarian socialist. Not being a follower and having very limited knowledge of the cult of blood drinking, flesh eaters known as Christians I could be wrong.
I apologize for the above I just couldn't resist.
bad, bad boy

[PATRICK]

18. The bishops as a body DID want to stay out of this

and had decided as a group not to. Unfortunately there was nothing to bind a few ultra conservatives and weaklings to this quiet course. Thanks to the media trying to make this sound like stampeded and the WHOLE hierarchy and Church we may get a big backlash by other bishops against this selective political interference, mainly since the re-election of George Bush is hardly a victory for life and death morality.

Actual factors that would eliminate abortions, especially the dangers of illegal backdoor abortionsm, have little to do with litigation making it illegal. And are these wingnuts going to raise the orphanage kids as good little Christian janissaries? Not unless it is a tax write-off.

How about abortion of the planet, premature Armageddon, humanity on ecological death row, the Forever War- all in the name of the nuttiest fringe Christians?

In fact a few bishops are already trying to speak out for the wholeness of the life/death issue(i.e. the war) but since the super loyal con renegades are using actual Church issue stands it has been as hard to counter.

In other words, fence sitting American bishops, welcome to the club. Bush has decided you are with him or against him, nor does he really care what you think anyway.

[Kinkistyle]

13. I don't take communion - and I am fine.

I don't get struck by lightning on a regular basis, nor do I get demonically possessed (well not since puberty). So whats the big deal?

[R Hickey]

14. This ex-Catholic will be donating to the GOP just as much as the Church

Although I was raised in a Republican, Catholic family, neither organization will be getting anything from me this year, or any other year.

[Malva Zebrina]

15. all tied up in misogyny , as usual

it is a back door attack on women and women's right to their own body. This church especially, is hostile to women, no matter how much they claim they "let" women do stuff in the church. There is an inequality this church promotes, and always has.

this is a big part of the problem:

"That's the job of bishops - to be concerned about the spiritual welfare and make sure the church's teaching isn't fudged or compromised in public."

by punishing those who are running for office in a democracy?

Who gave the bishops their "job"?

[dand]

16. Ecclesiastic tyranny is permissible in the Catholic Church,

After all the Pope is infallible, I think I was eight years old when I decided that this was a big pile of steaming horse S--t.

[bmbmd]

19. The priest denied communion

then Jesus said: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, and you shall find rest for your soul, for my yoke is esy and my burden is light."

[LizW]

21. It's just a personal decision every Catholic has to make

if the Catholic Church is going to be "calling Catholics to account". I have friends whose priest told them he wouldn't marry them or hear their confessions in the future because they admitted they planned to use birth control. Another friend's father was effectively excommunicated because he married a non-Catholic. I feel sympathy for Catholics who have always identified with the Church and for whom it is a large part of their upbringing and identity, but the Church is what it is, and what it has always been.

[UTUSN]

22. Then Deny Communion to HANNITY & O'REILLY

HANNITY, because he is pro-death-penalty (Church, not). O'REILLY, just on general principles---------oh, the mainline Church is totally O'REILLY, nevermind.

(O'REILLY's claims to being "an Independent" are that he's anti-death-penalty and pro-environment.)

[leesa]

23. Are they still granting communion to all the adulterers out there?

How about those getting hard-ons for war murdering? Are they getting communion?

[mmonk]

24. As nuns who wrote to our newspaper

defending Kerry said, the bishops are out of line, not Kerry. When the pope talks about abortion, he is not doing so "ex cathedra" which means it's still a matter of conscience. Therfore, Bishops who are denying communion to people on this issue aren't following Catholic tradition, not the other way around.

[Stuckinthebush]

25. That is totally up to the church...

However, it sounds like a lot of politicians have some soul searching to do. They must ask themselves if they really want to be members of a church that would use power this way.

I'd hope most would say no and find a new denomination.

[Moderator]

27. Locking thread......not LBN