Can someone help me find an article by a theologian who...

[truizm]

doesn't believe homosexuality is a sin? And that explains why it's not clear that it's a sin.

It's for a fundie. :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. YES

See Bishop Spong's site and "Liberals Like Christ".

Also look for "Bias in the Bible", "Stealing Jesus:" and "The Good Book", all linked on my website.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[TrogL]

3. They'll dismiss Spong out of hand

They think Spong is the Anti-christ.

[TrogL]

2. Lots of links

http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/orient.html

Also some of the links on the main page below.

[TrogL]

4. I'm no theologian but...

I play one on the net.

I'll give you the basic argument as I understand it.

The main prohibitions against gays are the "clobber passages". See http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/bibquote.html.

The problem is that Leviticus is full of clobber passages about all sorts of things that we now take for granted. It's also full of inaccuracies like rabbits with cuds. Depending upon who you follow, Jesus threw out most or all of Mosaic law, especially the ceremonial and dietary restrictions. The Leviticus passage says that gays are ceremonially "unclean". Who cares anymore.

There are similar passages in Romans. The problem with the Romans passages is that everybody stops reading at the end of the chapter. The original Bible didn't have chapters. If you keep reading, Paul specifically forbids the kind of activities your fundie is engaging in.

Finally, Paul and the rest of the Greek writers were affected by Greek culture, which placed a special emphasis upon "nature" and "natural". Paul's big complaint about men with men is that it isn't "natural". Science has since shown that it is. Sorry, Paul.

[doni_georgia]

5. Here you go:

http://www.mccsydney.org.au/notasin/
From Reverend Greg Smith - Metropolitan Church Sydney

Here's a good one:
Biblical argument for acceptance of homosexuality:
http://www.jpnordin.com/christianity/bible/hs/hs.htm

[silverlib]

6. My pastor and I are going to meet in the next couple of weeks...

She has found some interpretation about the social settings in Sodom and Gomorrah, which Bible passages mostly refer to in talking about homosexuality.

She told me just yesterday that the social settings being referred to in the Bible were much like the ones in the Iraqi prison - that the biblical references were in reference to atrocities committed during war time. I'm not sure how she will elaborate and back this up when we meet, but I am certainly interested.

Obviously, she is a tough theologian who does not believe that homosexuality is a sin.

edited to say - "and of course I do not either."

[truizm]

7. You're lucky.

I wish I had a friendly Christ-like liberal Church in my area.

I was appalled at my church ysterday. Rampant nationalism, lying about the constitution to scare people about liberals, lying about the founders all being Christian, saying the founders intended the nation to be a Christian nation, misrepresenting court decisions, calling Islam Satan, and many other things. The most disgusting service I've ever attended. It was like an orwellian 2 minute hate session. But for 2 hours.

I was also sent a CD-Rom by a pastor in my Church last week as a graduation present. He claims it entirely REFUTES evolution and PROVES the untestable creationist theory. Heh. He also implied that those who believe in theistic evolution (like me) were not true Christians.

[Tansy_Gold]

8. Seems like it's time for you to change churches.

n/t

[hippywife]

9. Find a

Unitarian Church in your area.

[silverlib]

10. My pastor has been "reassigned"

to nowhere. That's why we are meeting in the next couple of weeks. I'm laughing (instead of crying) at the suggestion you take a look at the Unitarian Church. My pastor will probably move to a Unitarian Church. It's a great suggestion. Right now, I'm staying with a group of liberal Methodist in a small church who are trying to change things. I don't know how long any of us can hang on.

[pop goes the weasel]

11. Tell him he wins

Send him a note telling him that, thanks to his gift, you've decided you aren't a Christian after all. Be sure to thank him for turning you against Jesus, that when you were just reading the Bible on your own, you thought JC was a forgiving, loving, intelligent sort of person. But thanks to the hate-filled ignorant example of the pastor, you know better now.

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. Definitely change churches

[Kat45]

12. We came to similar conclusions about S&G in my Bible study class

We read and discussed it, and decided it was not homosexuality that was being condemned. This was not talking about a loving, consenting homosexual relationship. It was talking about a bunch of men wanting to grab (male) visitors to the city and attack and rape them. Not the same thing.

Some (non-freeps) also interpret the Sodom & Gamorrah story as condemning the city's lack of hospitality; apparently in those times, people were supposed to be hospitable by inviting passing travelers into their homes to eat and sleep. And the residents of Sodom, excluding Lot who did invite the strangers in, were about as far from hospitable as one can get.

Your pastor's interpretation of the S&G story is probably similar to the ones we came up with in our Bible study class. We studied all of the passages the freeps cite to condemn homosexuality, and did not see it in the same way they did.

[bobbieinok]

14. see this site about gays and the southern baptists

http://www.truluck.com/html/a_response_to_southern_baptist.html

and link there to soul force

[kiahzero]

15. William Carey, of the Pentacostal Church:

I'm looking for the originial letter as we speak. Here's something from one of my sources for a research paper:
"Reverend William Carey of the fundamentalist Pentecostal Church, who has studied the Bible in its original languages, concludes that the anti-homosexual gloss placed on some passages when translated into english is not faithful to the original text. Recalling that the prophet Daniel and the Babylonian eunuch Ashpenaz were joined in what he considers a same-sex marriage - specific biblical evidence of favored same-sex unions - Carey argues that same-sex marriages are faithful to the biblical concepts of commitment and love."

The letter is apparently archived at the Virginia Law Review, and I'm trying to find access.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Wow, most Pentecostals I know are very very very

conservative and traditional and would never dream of even debating whether or not homosexuality is a sin. To them, it just is.

[kiahzero]

17. Right

But this is a theologian in their church who has engaged the issue.

Here's another, from the National Capitol Presbytery in 1991:
What was the historical Christian position on heterosexual marriage and blessing of same-sex unions?
   John Boswell, Chairman of the History Department of Yale University, will publish research on this question in late 1991. While translating old Vatican manuscripts, Boswell discovered 100 distinct ceremonies used by the church to bless the union of same-sex couples. The same-sex ceremonies were located within the same sections of books containing marriage ceremonies. Official church ceremonies for same-sex couples were used over a period of 1500 years, beginning in the 5th century.