Vietnam question regarding what's going on now--can anyone help?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

I was an infant, toddler and young child during Vietnam. I remember next to nothing about it (vague memories of the day we evacuated the embassy, that's it, loads of adults talking about it for days).

Things right now seem mighty depressing, but this war hasn't gone on for years or had as many casualties (not to underplay what has happened, but just comparatively speaking). But I am still finding it very depressing. I am in my mid-30s.

Once Vietnam was really over, how long did it take for things to feel "normal" again, for the country to get its mojo back? Or did it ever feel normal again? Was it never the same? Surely the fog of sadness started to lift, at least a bit, right?

[Bandit]

1. It will never be normal again

IMHO

[Frances]

6. I think you have a point.

Jimmy Carter put into words the sadness and confusion that people felt about the Vietnam war.

Then Reagan came along and pretended Vietnam never happened. Reagan just did a rewind and pretended the U.S. was where it was at the end of World War II when we were the heroes and the Communists were the enemy.

Most people found it a lot easier to go along with Reagan than to face the truth.

Now Kerry's challenge is to be honest but optimistic at the same time. Clinton was able to do this, but Clinton was an exceptionally gifted politician.

[demnan]

2. It took my brother about five years to get over

his army experience over there, and he wasn't even in combat, ever. He did mean malicious things to my other brother. He stole from his place of work. He stuffed my cat in a trashcan. You know nice things like that.

It took the love of a good woman, his wife of 28 years now. But I agree that I could never feel the innocent trust some people feel toward their country. Not ever, until Clinton.

And now that's all gone.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

12. Oh my. Your CAT?

I know it was hard for most of them. My father in law went to Vietnam three times, once as a PFC, once as an NCO and then the final time as an officer. He was hurt pretty badly the last time. He was a combat engineer.

My husband has memories of coming in from somewhere with his mother and little sister and finding his dad drunk, sitting at the kitchen table with a gun in his hand. Just trying to decide whether to use it on himself or not. And the horrible fights his mom and dad had (his dad was still in the Army, he was a lifer).

To this day he doesn't like talking about it.

[GarySeven]

3. It was disco ...

Disco made us feel good again; the puka beads, the flare-bottomed trousers. The hair. I predict that in five years there will be a resurgance of disco nostalgia to help us forget the divisions of today.

Remember -- don't "bump" with any big fat women.

[Spinzonner]

7. Hilary Clinton in Office

and a new group, the "It Takes a Village People"

[ashling]

8. Disco is evil

I remember a T-Shirt I had in those days: "Disco Sucks"

It was a sinister plot to dull the minds of America . . .

apparently it worked

[ClassWarrior]

52. Hey Gary...

...how's that cogent cat of yours? What was her name again?

[GarySeven]

55. Her name was ...

Isis. Now, excuse me whilst Teri Garr and I tend to bidness.

[H2O Man]

4. Good question.

We are still dealing with that issue in the 2004 election. Many people in our nation have not come to terms with Vietnam. Over fifty thousand American families had a relative die there. It is not possible for a family to get over that in a generation. Many more families had a relative come home wounded, both mentally and physically. We really need to deal with this in an open, semi-healthy way. This election is a step in that direction.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

9. You make a good point

Vietnam, in the big scheme of things, really WASN'T that long ago. So we have families who still haven't recovered from THAT and then we have this big freaking mess.

It just.....I don't know.....I wonder if the "bad feeling" present today will ever go away. I know getting Chucklenuts out of office will help tremendously. I swear I will cry tears of joy.

Maybe it's just hitting me particularly hard today. And seeing people around me in total denial about Iraq and what's going on in our country and around the world (regarding how we are seen) doesn't help matters any.

[H2O Man]

17. I tend to see things in terms of "family systems"

which comes from decades of employment as a social worker. I think it is fair to say that Vietnam was not "new" for America: it was the same phenomenon that occured in our country with the Indian peoples. One day, we are going to have to do some very painful self-examination. I say that not as a "blame America first" person, or as one who hates this country. I say it as a citizen who wants to see us learn from our mistakes, so that we do not keep doing the same thing over and over. And I recognize that this administration lacks the ability to lead us in this effort.

[Hoping4Change]

5. Bandit is right. Its not going to be normal again.

Bush has sown a whirlwind.:(

[Dhalgren]

14. I think you're right.

With the way this nation is divided, it will never be "normal" again. We will always have the powerful crazies who seem to not like America and what it used to stand for, yet they make loud claims to patriotism. Half this country hates the other half and Vietnam and the "60's" have something to do with it. There are people who want and embrace freedom, liberty, and responsibility - and then there are those who seem to despise freedom and want something akin to a dictatorship. This country has never been in as bad a condition as it is in now; politically, morally, spiritually. I, for one, think it will not recover.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

10. So those of you here who were adults at the time

what DID the late 70s feel like?

I was a kid. My brother and I danced around in our parent's living room a lot, to records. We wore funky bell bottoms. I remember the economy being not so great and my dad worrying about losing his company. I remember sitting in long long long gas lines in the Texas summer heat. We had to go by license plate number or something like that. I heard about inflation a lot and some hostages and I heard about Carter and his brother. And peanut farming. To a kid, it all seemed very weird.

So I guess I was wondering what the take on it was from people who were adults or late teens at the time and had a better sense of what was going on than I did. I wonder how my child will remember THESE years.

[Mountainman]

19. I went back to college in the late 70's

I remember there were still racial issues going on. I was amazed at all the students that watched soap operas. Disco was king. The Beatles had broken up. Inflation was high I think. There was a thing called the misery index. People were blaming Carter for everything that went wrong. Iran took the hostages.

My memory is fuzzy about it.

[the Kelly Gang]

11. the most amazing thing is the Vietnamese are so friendly to us

[Bandit]

21. One of the only countries that actually likes us

We left them to their own devices. Everyone said the world would fall apart (The Domino Theory) and that we couldn't just pull out and leave those people. Guess what? We did just that and the people actually like us and want us to go there and do business with them. Will Iraqis ever feel this way. If we don't give them back their country, and I mean now, then I would have to say probably not and neither will any other country in that region. We need to "cut and run" if that is the term that needs to be used. I don't want another American beheaded ever again. I am literally sick over this. I am not a hateful person but my feelings for the Bush* Cabal are approaching that level. America deserves better.

[libhill]

24. I doubt that the countries

of the Middle East will ever warm up to us again. Not to take anything away from Vets of Viet Nam, but that was a different type of war, there were geo -politics involved. As you pointed out, Politicos felt at the time, that if one nation fell to communism, it would start off a chain reaction - Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, on and on, possibly eventually spreading to India, Australia, etc. Rightly or wrongly, that was a large part of the reasoning for going to war in Nam. On the contrary, the war in Iraq is, at least from a Muslim perspective, a war of religion, thanks in large part to President Morons use of the term "Crusade". People in this region are still sensitive to the invasion of their turf by Western Crusaders hundreds of years ago. They`ll not soon forget the atrocities being committed against them by Americans and Brits at this very moment.

[Bandit]

28. Funny you and most Americans call this a war of religion but no Arab

thinks of it in those terms. To them it is a war for land and wealth. Religion is not even a facter if you ask them about it. Amazing how things can seem so plain to some and so murky to others. Sometimes it would behoove us to ask them their opinion of matters.

[libhill]

33. If we had asked their opinion

perhaps we never would have invaded to begin with. Sadly, military behemoths such as the U.S., have never cared too much for the opinions of other, or should I say targeted, nations. And I agree that the quest for wealth is a factor in this mess. Spell it o-i-l.

[ConsAreLiars]

39. "Religious wars" are about power, not religion.

Ideology is a tool, just like the armies. The same was true for the Cold Wars and World Wars. Ideology is a means, not an end, except for the victims.

[Bandit]

40. That is exactly why we the USA call it a religious war and they Arabs

call it a war for land. Also they realize it has to do with the wealth beneith the land but Religion is not even a factor for them. They aren't craving world domination or power they just want their land back and their own wealth for them and not Westerners. They are not trying to push their religion on anyone. It is the Christians that are doing that.

[ConsAreLiars]

42. Sort of -- except

"we the usa" and "they the arabs" are both fictional constructs. In fact "they" are the fundiecon fanatics both here and there who are agitating to define this as a religious war. And in both cases the goal is land and power. "We," the ordinary people both there and here, are being propagandized with the "good-evil" religious hate mongering, and some fall for it.

I think the reason that so many non-USA commentators and people are clear about the power aspect is two-fold. One is that the victim of oppression is often readier to cast off illusions than the perp. Another, of course, is the "opinion-makers" in the two worlds have different goals. One side (BushBinLaden) is using religious mania to promote increased conflict. The other side, the people of the lands affected and those with nothing to gain from bloodletting who ally with them, seeks to avoid the invasions and devastation that are the goals of the power-mad fundiecons, and so find using delusional rhetoric to ramp up irrational passions to be counterproductive.

[Cheswick2.0]

59. lol...everything christian bad, all other religions good?

You honestly think Muslims are not trying to push their religion on anyone else and would never ever do anything mean to make people convert? Think again. Is the word Taliban familiar to you? How about "Sharia laws".
You really can't make things black and white the way you would like.

[Bandit]

60. How many Taliban have you ever encountered?

How many Jehovah's Witness? Which one actively tried to convert you? They enforce their religious beliefs among their faithful just as the Amish do. When was the last time an Amish person tried to convert you? I doubt either a Taliban or an Amish ever tried to proselytize you but I'm sure you have been approached by any number of Christians.

[Worst Username Ever]

13. I think something positive may come of this when it is all over

I think future politians are going to think LONG AND HARD about future military action. Hopefully this is a lesson and future lives will not be given in vain.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

34. I thought that was the result of Vietnam!

I can remember being a teenager and we were all sitting around talking about Vietnam and the chances of us ever being involved in such a mess again and we ALL agreed the chances were VERY slim. That our country would have to be CRAZY to go down that road again.

Guess we weren't counting on a crazy president and VP.

[kentuck]

15. There are consequences to invading Iraq just as there were with Vietnam

When we make these big decisions and they turn out bad, as this decision is turning out, we never get over it. Especially the young people that are in the middle of it all and their families. It is a permanent scar. That is why some of us were so against this ill-advised invasion.

[libhill]

16. For a number of years-

after Viet Nam the military was reluctant to get involved anywhere, unless they had a definite plan for getting in and out quickly. Some minor conflicts did follow, Panama , Grenada, Somalia, Iraq 1, etc. But these were fairly well thought out, in and out type operations. The Pentagon knew that the American public would not stand for any long term blood letting. But then came the rigged elections of 2000, the neo-cons, and their "Project for a New American Century". To sum it up, our country has been hi-jacked by a bunch of neo-fascist war profiteers. They don't give a rats tail how many people are killed or maimed, or how many years it drags on, as long as there is a profit involved.

[MaryH]

18. Viet Nam

I was a war protester during the Viet Nam war. I also didn't listen to the news very much because I didn't own a TV.

But we were stoned a lot and that helped us to make it from day to day.

And we had fun with our clothes. And we could still hitchhike back then. Most kids didn't have cars so we walked a lot. And we hung out with other drinking Boone's Farm and gallon jugs of red wine.

I was not very happy in those years. There was just so much bad stuff. And when I was growing up we were always practicing what to do in case of a nuclear bomb. And that was really depressing. I still have dreams about that.

So here it is - we are at war again. The news is all bad. Everyone is getting severely depressed.

It's time to legalize pot. That stuff really helps.

[libhill]

20. Damn -

you just brought back a lot of memories for me - some good, some bad. Deja vu, all over again. :)

[MaryH]

26. Deja Vu

Yep. Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end.

We did have some good times. I used to love to protest. Just give me a sign and set me loose.

And I still love lava lamps (but you need to be stoned to really get lava lamps) and black light posters of mandalas.

Remember "Bitchin"

I had a leather suede jacket with long fringe and cowboy boots. I was just too cool. Just get stoned and listen to the Moody Blues all day.

And we spent a lot of time hanging out in "head shops." We spent a lot of time talking to each other. None of us could afford TV.

It was certainly better than the reality we had to live with.

I remember the day when Kennedy took on Cuba. I was in Junior High. We went to school that morning not knowing if there would be a world left to come home to. That kind of fear is devastating to a child.
I kept dreaming about thousands of nuclear bombs falling from the sky.

[libhill]

35. I remember the feeling

being on a school playground in the early 60's , seeing a plane fly over, and wondering weather it was "ours" or "theirs". Childish, maybe, but that`s the way it was then. And the lava lamps were cool as shit. I'd like to get one today, if I could find one somewhere. I remember, by the way, attending some protests on the U.T. campus, trying to pass myself and my friends off as college students. Those were indeed the days. But if I had the chance to relive it all, I think I'd pass.

[graham67]

48. My Dad still talks about Cuba....

He was a Seabee at Guantanamo. One day he was building stuff and the next day they gave him a gun and a puptent and stuck him on the perimeter. It scared the shit out of him.

[immoderate]

56. Remember the "draft test?"

The government was afraid that too many people were staying in college to avoid the draft. So they proposed this nation wide test. Sort of a "no college student left behind" test.

If you did badly on the test, you got drafted. I went to the registrar's office with one of my friends to get the test application. As we were walking out, my friend said to me, "Do you really want to take this test to see if we're stupid enough to go in the army?"

We started laughing and ripped up the applications. A few days later, I guess the army thought it through a bit and they canceled the test.

What I usually do when people bring up the Viet Nam war, is pose the question, "We killed almost four million Viet Namese. Why did we do that?

--IMM

[nose pin]

46. Me too

I was just a young punk, but I had older brothers and cousins. My brother had his room set up with black lights and Peter Max posters, where he and his friends would drink Strawberry Hill and plot ways to get rejected when their number was called.

One friend dyed himself in a tub of purple dye about a week before his exam, so that the dye would rub off his hands and soles of his feet. When they asked what his ethnicity was, he said "unknown".

Another guy went in acting all psychotic. When asked if he ever heard voices, he paused for a very long moment, and replied "They told me to say no."

My brother was smarter. He slid a straight pin into the waistband of his underwear, and when he took his urine test, he pricked his finger and dripped one drop of blood into his piss. They told him he had severe kidney dysfunction.

I also had two cousins who volunteered to go to Vietnam. One came home fairly fucked up for a long time. The other didn't come home at all. He was a slick pilot killed in 1970. He wanted to go save lives, and that was what he did, at the cost of his own.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

27. Right

the two biggest mistakes I have heard that were made in this war were that there weren't enough troops to begin with and there was no real exit plan.

Course I think the FIRST mistake was in making a preventative attack on another country that did nothing to us, but that's just me.

[libhill]

38. I think that

greed for money, oil, and power got the better of their common sense. But it's easy enough to instigate a war, when you don`'t have to go fight it youself. Interesting that so many of these gung ho neocons, managed to avoid serving in Viet Nam.

[GarySeven]

22. It's hard to explain the Viet Nam era

to someone who wasn't there. You cannot imagine the daily terror of wondering whether a nuclear bomb would kill you and everyone you knew. It was a far different kind of terror than is inflicted by the random actors of today. You also cannot imagine what it is like to see the people in power not only abet the arms race but to be responsible for the murders of three of the leading liberals of the day, all within five years of each other. No one in the opposition today has the stature of the Kennedys or King and you cannot imagine the impact this had on us. I have seen conservatives in my day stop using the phrase "Jewish media" and replace it with "liberal media"; you folks living today don't know, as I do, that conservatives have only changed the words they use and that has gained them entry into levels of political discourse they could never enter during the Vietnam era.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

29. Oh no I understand nuclear threat

I was a teenager during the Reagan years. The cold war, the whole "is Russia going to nuke us tomorrow" thing was frightening. And stressful to constantly live under.

It may not have been the same in the 80s but there was definitely that cold war tension with Reagan ALL the fricking time.

[StopThief]

23. You won't like the answer. . . .

but the regained its confience when Reagan was elected.

[Bandit]

30. We can tell

:shrug:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

31. I don't necessarily disagree

but I'd like to hear some elaboration on that point, if you don't mind.

[nose pin]

47. I have to agree

I was in college when Reagan was elected. We thought the world was about to end, but a very thoughtful young woman explained it to me this way: Vietnam left a very bad taste in America's mouth. The Iran hostage crisis made this taste even more bitter. Reagan offered the vision that America really was a great country, and that it was ok to stop flagellating ourselves.

I still hated Reagan, and I didn't really see what this girl was trying to tell me, but looking back now, I can see that this was a turning point away from the post-vietnam doldrums.

[Neshanic]

53. I agree too, and you really will not like this.

The generation that was in HS when the war ended is probably the most distrustfull of government. I do not look back with warm nostalgic thoughts of the Vietnam Era.

If am alien was dropeed in the US and had to watch televsion, it would never know we were at war for years. I remember being in 1st grade the day Kennedy was assasinated and the 60's went to shit from there. Riots, the neverending war, assinations, generally a very terrible time to grow up in, no matter the best of environments.

There was always the hushed conversations at parties when the adults would talk of their sons coming of draft age, the questions from me as a 6th grader, with friends asking the teacher if the war was going to last forever, us trying to understand. There was the small town where I grew up, my sister's fiance being killed the week before they would meet in Hawaii, my father a WWII vet, crying and holding my sister. There was the still hot summer night when I woke up to my brother talking out by the barn with my father, and my father telling him to leave for Canada. The farm next door had the son that went and his mother would come over and weep with my mother.

When the war ended, I was a sophmore in HS. The Watergate crap, the the election of Jimmy Carter did not turn anything back to "normal" either. Jimmy Carter was a rotten president. It bears repeating. He was an utter failure for his time. You asked when the turning point was. The begining was Carter's infamous "limits" speech. A mealy mouthed, back handed slap at people who wanted a President to give inspiration, not a national scolding on how we should get used to it. Enter Reagan, he made people feel that optimism about the future was good, and then things became better, and "normal".

Flame away....

[sandnsea]

58. Nah, normal came with Clinton

I'm your age and understanding everything you're saying. But I didn't feel normal with Reagan. Him going off half-cocked with the USSR, homelessness, wages decreasing, yuk. I wasn't happy in the 80's. It wasn't until the mid-nineties that I had any hope at all. Ah well, we shot that in the ass too. We have such a brilliant country. :eyes:

[MnFats]

25. i agree...nothing has been the same since that time...

...
i turned cynical about my country's leaders, military and most especially republicans....i know, both parties got sucked into that war but Nixon almost single-handedly turned me permanently doubtful of leaders and qucik to dissent. what a lying asshole.

of course you understand that nixon and kissinger actually delayed or derailed the paris peace talks johnson was conducting in '68. (kissinger was working for johnson but reporting back to nixon....and they sent the message 'wait a while...you'll get a better deal from us....')
then as now, they were willing to let american soldiers die on false pretenses and for personal prestige....

ever since that war blame has been tossed all around and it seems americans will never put it behind them....i 'won' the draft lottery and didn't have to go but i have many friends who did and some came back a mess.
i hold nixon, kissinger, j0hnson and westm0oreland responsible...

i want to love my country, and i do, but so many times our leaders have made me ashamed to do so...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Normal?

Before the war, most people believed that "underneath it all" this was a good, benevolant, justice loving, democratic, country despite it's flaws. We believed that we could actually change things by simply shedding light on them.

A lot of eyes were opened during those years. Mine included, as young marine.

The "normal" that you yearn for, is a sort of yearning for an "ignorance is bliss" state.

Count yourself lucky. You've been awakened. It's damned painful, but worth it. Maybe you can't change the whole world, or the corporate monster that this country has become. But, you can do your bit to make things a bit better for the victims. Write some letters for Amnesty International, complain to your congressfolk (I'm blessed with a senator - Murray, and a congressman - Baird who actually listen and respond to letters and emails), march, donate, and, most importantly, pay attention.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

36. Thanks I agree

and I do all those things. I have Chucklenuts to thank for waking me up in 2000.

I don't think I'll ever be the same or feel the same again. I've learned too much. And the more I learn, the worse it gets.

But I do think things OVERALL can be happier again. Not SO bad.

Am I wrong?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Of course you can be happy.

You certainly don't have to be miserable by paying attention to the world. But, God help you, if you don't feel sad, angry, frustrated, disgusted, or appalled at times.

If you didn't, you'd make a damned good republican.

[seabeyond]

37. we were in shame for a long while

it was reagan that allowed the shame to become arrogance, in remembrance

[vetwife]

43. Vietnam was never over for any vet ...nor will it ever be, just piled

higher and deeper with this crap now. If you ask any combat vet they ususally get upset. They were halfway coping and I use the word looosely, now many are coming apart at the seams. Toooooooooooo
much like Vietnam.........Too much pain and the memories never really went away now they are front and center. Thanks Bush for helping my our lives more of a Hell !

[seabeyond]

45. i so hear you vetwife

i was hoping kerry could be a healer in that and allow the vet to shine, but repugs farted on that too

[stavka]

44. It created a huge gap that has never been filled.

The gap between right and left was never there before EXCEPT on issues of racial justice. A huge issue IMHO - but wasn't there.

Ike was right.

[kittykitty]

49. We were in Berkeley, San Francisco & No. Calif during those years and

we marched in Peace, or Anti-War demonstrations. There was a constant vigil at Port Chicago where munitions were sent to Viet Nam. It seems like there were constant demonstrations and constant clashes with the police, "The Pigs".

The political climate was one of rebellion against the government. There was free speech and the universities were full of activists, professors as well as students.

Today there is such a feeling of oppression, and threats from the government to those expressing dissent. Putting protesters in zones away from the president's appearance. Unheard of in the Vietnam Era! However, the worldwide demonstrations preceding the Iraq war were magnificent, and brought back some of the feelings of the Viet Nam era.

The big difference is the media coverage--minimal coverage these days. The Women's March in Washington, attended by multitudes was barely noticed by the press.

[kittykitty]

50. We were in Berkeley, San Francisco & No. Calif during those years and

we marched in Peace, or Anti-War demonstrations. There was a constant vigil at Port Chicago where munitions were sent to Viet Nam. It seems like there were constant demonstrations and constant clashes with the police, "The Pigs".

The political climate was one of rebellion against the government. There was free speech and the universities were full of activists, professors as well as students.

Today there is such a feeling of oppression, and threats from the government to those expressing dissent. Putting protesters in zones away from the president's appearance. Unheard of in the Vietnam Era! However, the worldwide demonstrations preceding the Iraq war were magnificent, and brought back some of the feelings of the Viet Nam era.

The big difference is the media coverage--minimal coverage these days. The Women's March in Washington, attended by multitudes was barely noticed by the press.

[nose pin]

51. On media coverage

I think what you are seeing is more a factor of media overload. There are so many ways now to get information, and it is so instant. The big media outlets only cover what they think will keep eyeballs on the screen, and you have to seek out the information that interests you as an individual.

During the Vietnam era, everyone just watched the six o'clock news or read their local paper once a day. It took a minimum of 48 or 72 hours for film to get from Vietnam to your TV set, and you had your choice of three networks to watch.

Now you can watch it live over the web from almost any perspective.

[Tsiyu]

54. Somewhere in a Journal

at my mother's house, is an entry I made, sitting on my bed shortly after Nixon announced that the war was over. Already in my young life, I had formed an opinion about war and Republicans. I mistrusted and feared both.

What I remember from the time was an immense sense of relief. But the war was an unpopular topic. Just as today, "polite" people pretended it wasn't happening. The horror of it all was far away; there was a sense of America as a community and as a people ( not as an entity known as a "nation" ) lacking any control over what our less-than-noble leaders did with our resources and our kids. (Recurring theme with Republicans - why do you think they woo and caress the sheep who are eager to believe every lie they tell?)

There was a tremendous feeling of sadness in my chest, not because we didn't "Win" but because there was so much blood spilled and no one could explain why.

Having sent a son to Afghanistan and Iraq ( he got out before they could force him to stay in) I can say that I viewed this conflict with a personal panic that was not as profound when my Uncle was slogging through Viet Nam. Then, I listened to the daily death count with matter-of-fact ears. When my son was in harm's way, each death report made me pull the car over, or drop the dish i was washing...I can say that this time, we seem to note the deaths in a more personal way.

[eridani]

57. Still an ecological disaster area

Former rainforest still stripped bare of vegetation. An atrocious incidence of birth defects.