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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:45 PM
Original message
Are Conservatives Evil? How about Bush?

_____________________________

Definition: EVIL

1. morally objectionable behavior
2. the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice; "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world"
3. that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune; "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare
4. having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force"
5. tending to cause great harm
6. morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds"
7. having the nature of vice

Synonyms: atrocious, bad, black, corruptive, dark, demonic, depraved, despicable, devilish, diabolic, diabolical, evil-minded, evilness, fiendish, flagitious, grievous, harmful, heinous, hellish, immoral, immorality, infernal, iniquity, injurious, malefic, maleficent, malevolent, malign, mephistophelean, mephistophelian, monstrous, perversive, satanic, sinister, ugly, unholy, unworthy, vicious, vile, wicked, wickedness

Antonyms: good, good, goodness
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Definition: MORAL (for contrast)

1. the significance of a story or event; "the moral of the story is to love thy neighbor"
2. concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles; "moral sense"; "a moral scrutiny"; "a moral lesson"; "a moral quandary"; "moral convictions"; "a moral life"
3. psychological rather than physical or tangible in effect; "a moral victory"; "moral support"
4. adhering to ethical and moral principles; "it seems ethical and right"; "followed the only honorable course of action"; "had the moral courage to stand alone"
5. arising from the sense of right and wrong; "a moral obligation"
6. relating to principles of right and wrong; i.e. to morals or ethics; "moral philosophy"

Synonyms: chaste, clean, clean-living, conscientious, ethical, incorrupt, lesson, mental, moralistic, right, righteous, virtuous

Antonyms: amoral, immoral, unmoral
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http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/


________________________

Evil - Is Bush evil? Members of the Bush Administration? Ann Coulter? Rush Limbaugh? Politicians who say they want to kill liberals? Bush supporters?

Seems to me that Ann Coulter & Rush Limbaugh have exerted a malignant influence.

Bush has tended to cause great harm & exerted a malignant influence.

Members of the Bush Administration have tended to cause great harm & exerted a malignant influence. May have "evil purposes".

Of the synonyms, I don't think of "devilish, diabolic, diabolical", but rather "atrocious, bad, corruptive, harmful."

Is it hateful and bigoted to think this? Or is this just the way it is? How many facts does one need? Or do we ever really know what is going on, anyway? Or should we not even try to judge? (Just judge ourselves, for instance?) Don't we need to make judgements to vote, to participate in the process, etc.?

Perhaps it isn't necessary to put a label on what these people do - but I'm just curious what people think.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deepends on how you define it...
I'd prefer a less possibly offensive word or term, like "strongly misguided." Evil, except when used in humor, is too infammatory.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. YES, indeedy.
eom
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bush is not a conservative. He is a fascist.
They serve conservatives on toast.

I refuse to demonize honest opposition. This government was constructed so that different views would have to argue to a compromise before anything could happen.

But I do want to convert the dialog to a discussion of the definition of a nation, and what the national purpose is or should be.

We shout labels at each other, but each label seems to mean Satan to the one shouting it.

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Devlzown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You're right.
I don't have too much against real conservatives. At least their positions on issues have some constitutional basis.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. True. don't demonize conservatives,
they're natural allies against Bush, though many still don't realize it. The Bush administration is actually the most radical in American history.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Whether he is evil or not is irrelevant
Edited on Sat Aug-16-03 02:45 PM by The Night Owl
The greatest evil has often been perpetrated in the name of what some leader or some group thinks is the greater good.

Consider Hitler... Was evil the motivation behind Hitler's attrocities? Probably not. Hitler, like so many a dictator, believed that everything he did was good and righteous.

People who are openly evil are not the people we need to worry about the most. People who misguidedly believe they are righteous are the people we need to worry about the most.

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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think most people think of Hitler as evil - at least in retrospect
Edited on Sat Aug-16-03 02:53 PM by bloom
Several Hitler/evil books came up with a google. Just because a person does not himself think that ordering the killing of millions of people is evil does not mean that it isn't.

Take "the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice". That would certainly apply to Hitler.

So here we are with the world's strongest country. Most weapons, etc. and it seems like the USA has the power for evil or good. And if we use our resources to take over other countries for their resources - Some might think it is reasonable. Some might think it is evil. Some might not think anything. And what if we kill millions is the process. Does that change the definition?

on edit: But this is getting into what ifs....
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Exactly...
That is why I say that the greatest evil is often perpetrated in the name of what some person or some group thinks is the greater good.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. evil doesn't know itself
I can readily believe the worst about the board of Bush Co., but I don't believe its members act with self-conscious wickedness. I think they've convinced themselves they're the real patriots, the true Americans, making the tough choices that weaker men and women would balk at. That's their motive for the resource war: "national security." Though it amounts to a philosophy of "we had to destroy the country in order to save it." Feeding the greed of Halliburton, Carlyle and the rest is a just a not-so-incidental ancillary benefit.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I have to disagree
If they thought that, they wouldn't lie so much. These people lie every time they open their mouths, which means that they're actually plotting shit behind our backs that they don't want us to know about.

Which means they know they're doing something wrong, something that would be disapproved of if we only knew about it.

Seriously, if they truly and sincerely felt like they were doing the right thing by their godawful criminal actions, I wouldn't hate them as much as I do. I would consider them tragically misguided.

But they are engaged in criminal acts and lying about it. They KNOW they're lying. They're telling more lies to cover up the old lies. They're feeding their own propaganda network to control the public's reaction to it. They're trying to distract the public with new fears.

They are evil bastards plain and simple. They are the foxes in the henhouse, and you can bet behind closed doors they're laughing their asses off about it.

They need to be stopped with force. It's the only thing they'll respect.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. i tend to agree with that
Philosophically - I like the goal of trying to see the good in others. And there is no doubt some there. But I have a really hard time trying to imagine it.

What they did to get the war going...I don't know how they sleep at night.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. "the roots of evil" by Hiroshi Matsushita
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. Conservatives evil? Probably not.
Edited on Sat Aug-16-03 04:16 PM by cat_girl25
But some republicans sure are evil...or close to it. Take a look at this republican responding to a another poster's message to President Clinton. I know this poster is a troll but I guarantee you it is a republican. Read post #20!

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=l&board=37138455&tid=apbbnmetsclinton&sid=37138455&mid=27

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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The level of hatred expressed there amazes me.
"Liberals Deserve Death" - pretty scary stuff. :(
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Speed8098 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Here's what I wrote in reply to their ignorance.
I'm happy to see that Bill Clinton
still owns most of you.

by: speed8098 (M/Long Island New York) 08/17/03 09:23 am
Msg: 39 of 39


It's pathetic that you would not hold the Chimp in Charge to the same standards that you held the Big Dog to.

Most of the repukes I've spoken to have said they are pissed that Bill LIED.

What about shrub?

Bill lied to cover up a freaking blowjob.
Bush lied to get us into war.
Which lie did the most damage?
Monica lost a dress due to President Clintons action.
Thousands of HUMANS lost their lives due to shrubs actions.
It seems to me that your anger is misplaced.


I'll share any interesting replies.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Very good response to those right wing nuts!
They won't hear you though. They just like to continue bashing the Clinton's with their hatred.
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'd say Shrub has been corrupted by evil forces.
Sometimes when he's in the right light you can see the horns and pitchfork for a fleeting moment.
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connors Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
14. 9-11 victims' families and the redacted pages
Two of the victims’ families thoughts about 9-11
Asked if she believes the Bush Administration is withholding information, Patti Casazza, whose son, John, 13, thought his father was Superman - untouchable - until the trade center fell, replied, "They are blacking out info in the report. That is withholding information."
 
"I don't want anyone to know what it's like to watch your husband burn alive on television," Kristen Breitweiser said. "The report is incomplete at best. Fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were Saudi. We have clear and convincing money trails linking the Saudi princes to the terrorists. Why that's not finding its way into the report, I don't know", she said.
 
Who do we care about here? Maybe I’m a bleeding heart but, I care about the people who are grieving. 43’s families’ 9-11 compensation fund has provided paltry benefits for the poor families. Also, there has been collusion between the fund’s Special Master and the U.S. District Judge assigned with their private litigation. Typical to their nature, 43’s team always stonewalls. This inhumanity to brokenhearted souls has caused the poor families of the victims of this tragedy; who really want to get the benefits and lawsuits behind them so they can stop being forced to dwell on their lost loved ones, to suffer more, and re-open their wounds with further lawsuits. If 43 had returned “honor and dignity” to his actions in this, then these poor people could get on with their lives. They are not “Pioneers” or “Rangers” so 43’s “compassionate conservatism” doesn’t include them.
 
 
A meeting of multiple misdeeds, combining to form a Perfect Storm of scandals for 43’s regime.
 
There is the Families 9-11 compensation fund, which is low-balling the victims’ families and sharing information detrimental to the victims’ families, with the Families 9-11 lawsuit
Did this fund assuage the victims’ loss? It didn’t! It only roused the anger of the families to such an extent that nearly half the victims eligible to apply for federal money under the Sept. 11 compensation fund have not filed claims for the program. Out of an estimated 3,000 eligible participants, 1,719 people have applied for the fund, created shortly after the terrorist attacks to protect airlines and other agencies from being bombarded with lawsuits. Those who receive checks, which average $1.4 million per victim, give up their right to sue.
 
U.S. District Judge Alvin Hellerstein, of the Southern District of New York, has private litigation before his court regarding the terrorist attacks of 9-11. 43’s team is maliciously coordinating information with the fund’s Special Master and this private suit’s U.S. District Judge, against the benefit of 9-11 victims’ families. How can they be that evil? Remember how the Paula ones lawyers, some who had worked with Starr, shared information with him and coordinated their legal shenanigans to impeach Clinton? GOP guys, once they see something can work, even though it is unethical, they are duty bound to continue doing it.
 
The 43 Administration is involved with political machinations linked to Special Master Kenneth Feinberg and the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund which were revealed in a Department of Justice’s letter to Hellerstein’s court: “The Government has been advised that the Court is developing a procedure by which all Plaintiffs in the September 11 Tort Litigation must formally acknowledge the ramifications of pursuing a lawsuit rather than filing a claim with .”
 
This action will permit Feinberg to force families to listen to his attempts to convince them to give up their lawsuits -- accepting his reduced financial offers, instead of taking their chances for fair compensation, justice and accountability in court.
 
For those who want answers as to what actually led to these air disasters and the deaths of their loved ones, the victim compensation fund falls severely short, claim Schiavo and Greaves.
 
"The biggest problem with the fund is that no questions may be asked as to how this could have happened," said Greaves. "Plus, life insurance and other collateral sources of compensation are deducted from the award, but fault need not be proven. You get paid now, but less than the potential of a lawsuit."
 
"Our clients want accountability. They can't do that if they simply take a 'no fault' payment from the fund," Schiavo stated in a press release. " suing because they want answers, and they want change."
 
Schiavo and Greaves are lawyers who have filed 38 lawsuits on behalf of the victims' families.
 
Just recently, lawyers acting for families of the Lockerbie bombing victims say they have reached agreement with Libya on the payment of compensation. Under the deal Libya was expected to start transferring the compensation money - up to $10 million for every victim - into a Swiss bank account immediately. I’ve read that average will be between 4 and 6 million, which is considerably higher than the $1.4 million in the families’ 9-11 compensation fund. WHY? Remember how 43 gets incensed whenever he speaks about lawyers and their frivolous suits. He couldn’t keep his right-wing conservative standing if he permitted this fund to adequately recompense the victims’ families, even though he hypocritically seems to be such a compassionate person. He is so whenever the cameras are clicking!
 
The Families 9-11 lawsuit is in Cover-up mode!
What have 43’s boys done, other than the “dishonorable and undignified” actions? We have seen where they are communicating with Special Master Kenneth Feinberg and the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund, to the detriment of the victims’ families. In the opening legal gambits of this suit, U.S. Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division Robert D. McCallum, Jr. and United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York James B. Comey advised U.S. District Judge Alvin Hellerstein, that the Department of Justice (DOJ) will intervene to control access to all evidence and documents related to all private litigation before Hellerstein’s court regarding the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 -- citing grave national security concerns as their motivation.
 
Why? How can 43 hope that this will go unchallenged? What a perfect example of “compassionate conservatism”! The victims’ families have resorted to lawsuits.
 
Motley’s 9-11 $1 trillion lawsuit on behalf of more than 500 family members of 9-11 victims!
The families’ 9/11 attorney Ronald Motley lawsuit alleges that Saudi money has “for years been funneled to encourage radical anti-Americanism as well as to fund the Al Qaeda terrorists“.
The 259-page complaint names 100 defendants, including members of Saudi Arabia's royal family, the Republic of Sudan, seven Saudi and Sudanese international banks, Islamic charities, Saudi government officials, individual Saudi financiers, and Osama bin Laden.
 
Another batch of federal lawsuits
38 in total have been or soon will be filed on behalf of victims' family members by attorneys Mary Schiavo and John Greaves of the Los Angeles. It is important to note the distinction between the Schaivo suits and the $1 trillion suit filed against Saudi and Islamic defendants. Plaintiffs who have accepted compensation from the federal victim fund are not precluded from taking part in the Saudi suit, however, those compensated by the fund may not sue the airlines, security companies or U.S. government entities, according to the fund's guidelines.
 
Hilton’s Families 9-11 lawsuit
Stanley Hilton isn’t another example of a wacko lawyer who’d sue anybody. He is a former aide to Senator Bob Dole. The class-action suit names ten defendants, among whom are George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld.
Hilton's suit charges Bush and his administration with allowing the September 11th attacks to take place so as to reap political benefits from the catastrophe. Hilton alleges that Osama bin Laden is being used as a scapegoat by an administration that ignored pressing warnings of the attack and refused to round up suspected terrorists beforehand.
 
Did you know that Hilton claims to have sources within the U.S. intelligence community, who have stated the Bush Administration ignored intelligence information warning of the impending attacks and refused to round up suspected terrorists known to the FBI and other intelligence agencies before 9-11?
 
Hilton's plaintiffs in this case are the families of 14 victims of 9/11. These are the same families that rallied in Washington to advocate for an independent investigation into the attacks. They rightly suspected that the just concluded 9/11 hearings which were conducted by Congress behind closed doors, would leave too much unanswered.
 
They didn’t have to be great prognosticators to get this accurate forecast; they only had to be realistic.
 
In an article, “All Along the Watchtower”, by William Rivers Pitt, he spells out the reasoning behind this belief, “Mr. Hilton, by filing his lawsuit, has joined the ranks of an ever-increasing body of Americans who subscribe to what they call the LIHOP Theory. LIHOP stands for Let It Happen On Purpose. The LIHOP Theory puts forward the accusation that Bush and his people allowed the September 11th attacks to take place, despite the fact that they had been repeatedly warned of an impending strike.
The LIHOP Theory is straightforward: In the months before 9/11, American intelligence agencies received ominous warnings from the intelligence services of nations like Israel, Russia, Egypt and Germany. These warnings were pointed - an attack involving hijacked aircraft and prominent American landmarks was imminent, our security forces were told. Bush himself was briefed of these warnings weeks before they happened. Instead of responding vigorously to these warnings, the Bush administration and its security apparatus did nothing.”
 
This briefing, in particular was so damning that the current, hypocritical GOP president has cited executive privilege in refusing to declassify the Presidential Daily Briefing item.
 
What is he hiding? Can we find a pattern?
 
Then there is the redaction of 28 pages relating to Saudi Arabia in Congressional 9-11 Report
The Saudi foreign minister spoke with the president of the United States and demanded that the 28 pages be released. And Republican Senator Shelby, who is a friend of the president, says 95 percent of it could be released without any problem for sources and methods.
 
Why is he stonewalling yet again?  The Congress is preparing to start a process that permits the declassification of information if the Senate voted to release it — even over the objections of the administration.   
 
43’s and Kean share a business partner and to keep that secret the 9-11 Investigation that Kean heads will turn into a sham.
Remember how Kissinger had to recuse himself from this investigation because of conflict of interests? There is no possibility that Thomas Kean, Kissinger's 9-11 Investigation replacement, won’t have to do the same. Rove had to have planned it this way desperately hoping that nothing could come out before the election. When 43 had second thoughts about running in 2000, it was because he didn’t think his history could pass the close inspection a presidential candidate gets. It was not his trivial DUI that concerned him, but his shady business dealings with Saudis.
 
We have to do a brief recent history primer here. The CIA uncovered the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, ( BCCI ) criminal activities in 1981--no great feat, considering how many of its own foreign "associates" were involved, including the head of Saudi intelligence, Kamal Adham, brother-in-law of King Faisal. Instead of stopping the terrorists, the CIA joined them, using BCCI's secret channels to finance "black ops" all over the world.
 
When a few prosecutors finally began targeting BCCI's operations in the late Eighties, President Bush 41 boldly moved in with a federal probe directed by Justice Department investigator Robert Mueller. The U.S. Senate later found that the probe had been unaccountably "botched"--witnesses went missing, CIA records got "lost," all sorts of bad luck. Lower-ranking prosecutors told of heavy pressure from on high to "lay off”.
 
One of the scams they came up with involved Dubya. Mini-me's maladroit business skills were about to sink Harken Energy, but the firm was saved by a $25 million investment from a Swiss bank -- a subsidiary of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, partly owned by the beneficent Khalid bin Mahfouz -- perhaps better known as "Osama bin Laden's bagman" or even "Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law."
 
What is Kean’s involvement?  Kean is a director of Amerada Hess, an oil giant married up to Saudi Arabia's Delta Oil in a venture to pump  black gold in Azerbaijan. The partnership is incorporated in a secretive offshore "tax haven," natch. You can't expect a GOP inner-circle criminal, like Kean, to pay taxes like some grubby wage slave. One of those cut-outs was Mahfouz factotum James Bath, a partner in George W.'s early oil venture, Arbusto, who has admitted serving as a pass-through for secret Saudi money.
 
When the GOP say that 43 and Kean were playing by the book, remember that Clinton desperately tried to reign in these offshore dodges, but the GOP controlled Congress wouldn’t go along with it. This little recent history excursion also shows the “honor and dignity” of 41, who knows what these people are capable of, and still is a shill for Carlyle to them. This is an aristocratic family?
 
The Court cases, proving these allegations behind a reasonable doubt, will carry more weight than even the gop media can cover-up!
 
What has happened to the rightful outrage regarding Bush’s “16 words”? This, as well as the
43’s regime disclosing intentionally information identifying a covert agent Joseph Wilson’s wife, are both going to require congressional investigations, yet our major media hasn’t trumpeted these situations daily.
 
The lawsuits for the 9-11 victims’ families will draw attention to information that 43 is desperately trying to hide until after the election. These lawsuits would have been avoided if 43’s had exhibited the “moral clarity” that he struts around duplicitously expounding about. He should have helped the victims’ families in their time of need, rather than shafting them.
 
FOX, the leading star in the Murdoch’s inspired GOP monopoly of the media will attempt to downplay this. It can’t succeed as the constant attention that court cases require assures that enough will surface to destroy the leaking ship of lies these rats dwell in.
 
Let’s see, first 43 threw Tenet off the life raft about the “16 words”. That didn’t quiet people down so his team of sinking rats picked Ambassador Robert Joseph, a special assistant to the president with responsibility for counter-proliferation matters on the National Security Council staff to jettison next. That didn’t work, so off went Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. It is clear that 43 is the chief rat and he’ll sacrifice anyone.
 
With these lawsuits, if the perfectly obvious fact that Attorney General Ashcroft, cut the anti-terrorism budget prior to 9-11, against the advice of the outgoing Clinton team comes to light, that won’t kill 43’s run. Neither would Ashcroft’s penchant for covering up naked statues, and evading calico cats, instead of doing something about the terrorist threat. That, at that time was what his job required him to do. How do you explain the AG’s abrupt avoidances of airplanes in the immediate months prior to 9-11, due to intelligence he received related to the terrorist threat? This falls into the category of LIH, maybe accidentally, or due to incompetence.
 
If the LIHOP Theory bobs to the forefront of our peoples’ minds, then the “would-be king rat”, 43, will be sunk!
 
b. connors
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. I think it's vital to recognize evil, and unquestionably
George Bush and his cronies are evil.

Evil people tend to think that everybody else is just like them, but better at covering it up. They think everyone else is hypocritical, even dishonest, in expressing any sort of compassion, or actually wanting to help anyone else. They actually think they're more "honest" (think of Ann Coulter)

They cannot fathom that anyone else would not be like they are deep down.

George Bush and his familiy, going back to his grandfather and possibly beyond, have been involved in the deaths of thousands and thousands of people.

That's not only evil, but that breeds an even more powerful evil.

How many people were killed directly under Bush when he was governor of Texas? How many retarded men, women, born-again-Christians? Has he ever expressed one iota of compassion or empathy for them or ANYONE?

I have no problems with conservatives. If someone feels very strongly that the federal government should be small and only involved in national defense and interstate highways, fine, whatever. That's a difference of philosophy. This country is all set up for that.

But what we have with these folks is a grievous abuse of power. We have lies on top of lies on top of lies.

The other main characteristic of evil people is exactly that: lies. They lie constantly, they cannot be trusted. You cannot enter into any agreements with them, because they will simply break the agreements.

They only respond to force and power.

Which is why we need force and power to remove them.


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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
18. the good, the bad, and the ugly
Disclaimer: I'm not a believer

The discussion of politics in terms of good and evil turns me off. Further, I despise most manifestations of moralism in politics, even if I agree on the political point or ethical argument being made. For me, the discussion of "morals" is backwards and has unfortunate consequences for civic life.

Since you're making inquiries here, I'd respectfully suggest that you don't rely too much on synonyms and dictionary definitions, but take cognizance of the subtle differences between related words, and be aware that what appears as a mere conotation or coloring of a word in general usage may have, in certain circles, a rich, amply thought-out tradition of precise meaning.

The "good" in politics, for example, has been examined since the time of Socrates and of course Aristotle. But what is the opposite of the good in Socratic thought? I'd think it would be the ignorant. You could make a case for the ugly as well. Evil? That's a very particular notion.

Rather than claiming that Dubya is evil, or promotes evil in any way, I'd say that he's ignorant. That's pretty darned incontravertable, so I'll stick with that. I also feel that his politics are ugly. That's an easy case to make, so I make it. And while he is no ways the embodiment of badness, he is in my view bad for the people he represents, and most others who share the planet with him. But the root of it, I honestly believe, is ignorance.



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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. that is a very thoughtful response
Kind of what I was getting after.

On the one hand, many sub-definitions of "evil" - I think apply in this case. On the other - there is the demonic, dehumanizing quality to thinking in terms of leaders as evil.

To my way of thinking - the current administration is worse than merely bad or ignorant. Purposefully hijacking the country and turning it into a pre-emptive war machine.

Evil is probably not the best word. Perhaps corrupt would do it, if I were to just have one word to describe the Bush administration and legacy.

(I know you suggested I not rely on the dictionary - but I think it's interesting...)

"Corrupt" Definition:

1. lacking in integrity; "humanity they knew to be corrupt...from the day of Adam's creation"; "a corrupt and incompetent city government"
2. touched by rot or decay; "tainted bacon"; "`corrupt' is archaic"
3. containing errors or alterations; "a corrupt text"; "spoke a corrupted version of the language"
4. not straight; dishonest or immoral or evasive
5. alter from the original
6. place under suspicion or cast doubt upon; "sully someone's reputation"
7. make illegal payments to in exchange for favors or influence; "This judge can be bought"
8. corrupt morally or by intemperance or sensuality; "debauch the young people with wine and women"; "Socrates was accused of corrupting young men"; "Do school counselors subvert young children?"; "corrupt the morals"

Synonyms: Augean, bribable, bribe, buy, cloud, corrupted, corruptible, crooked, debase, debased, debauch, defile, demoralise, demoralize, deprave, depraved, dirty, dishonest, immoral, imperfect, misdirect, perverse, pervert, perverted, praetorian, pretorian, profane, purchasable, putrid, reprobate, rotten, sneaky, sold-out(a), sordid, spoil, subvert, sully, taint, tainted, underhand, underhanded, unscrupulous, venal, vitiate, vitiated Antonyms: incorrupt, straight See Also: adulterate, alter, bastardise, bastardize, buy off, carnalise, carnalize, change, debase, deflower, dilute, dishonorable, impair, infect, lead astray, lead off, mar, modify, pay, pay off, poison, sensualise, sensualize, sop, spoil, stretch, suborn, unlawful, vitiate, whore




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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. Yes, and Obviously
Which is exactly why we should fight them and those who enable them hard, mean, dirty, and relentlessly.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
22. No not all conservative are evil
In fact I believe that most are not. Many have simply been mislead and feel that conservative offer better solutions to the US's problems then do liberals.

The only time I feel evil enters the equation is when greed leads to the destruction of human life. I don't believe moral stances on issues such as abortion, gay marriage, and min wages make one evil. I think that evil is being used in place of a lack of understanding and compassion.
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. i would have to say
they are twisted and disgustingly evil.

i have no time for neo-cons anymore.
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Mel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. for me
at this point the side of the fence that conservatives hang out at is fascist corporatism therefore they are evil and they are enemies against our country.
What we are seeing is 'crony capitalism' not capitalism which is what the CONservatives are supporting. All bets are off on playing nice this is a fight for our Democracy!

If they want to demonize liberal as they have for years and years then they will not get any respect from me they have brought great harm upon the country their actions have lead them to this turn of events and I refuse to seperate them at this point they set up the rules now they will have to pay the price!
I'm afraid the lesson is going to be hard for them and us too they don't want to listen to reason they want to scream over us and make it up as they go. I for one am not going to take it anymore.
Calling a spade a spade!

I know the difference between Christians and Xtians and I see the Christians in this country taking a stand to fight off the Xtians and until I see people that label theirselves Conservatives do the same in mass numbers they are Evil and my Enemy.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yes. Incontrovertibly.
To keep this simple and short:

Evil I define as a person who would intentionally harm another person.

By that definition, it can be said:

George Bush is evil.

As a businessman, he defrauded investors.

As a governor, he laughed at a condemned woman who was begging for clemency.

He also used his office to enrich his close supporters at the expense of his state's residents.

As a candidate, he stole a presidential election.

As an unelected (p)resident, he used the office to enrich his close supporters at the expense of the nation's citizens.

Bush also ignored warnings of an impending terrorist attack that claimed thousands of lives.

Bush lied to the American people in order to justify invading a country at which we were at peace, costing the lives several hundred US military personnel and killing thousands of innocent men, women and children.

There are more examples. They all demonstrate the evil nature of this man.

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Raenelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. IMO, people are never evil, though acts may be
I'm not all that enamored of the word evil. It reinforces the whole trend away from enlightened thinking, reason, science, cause and effect, and toward superstition and religious prejudice.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Then you've never actually met an evil person
I have. It was quite an awakening. Because I used to feel the way you do.

Evil people seem to have a gene missing. I seriously think they're born that way. I don't think they can be rehabilitated, or controlled. They just have to be overpowered and stopped.

Ultimately they're almost always quite self destructive. Trouble is, they take down a LOT of people with them.

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. Yes, I think so
When you consider what has happened the past few years, I would call them evil.

Theft of pensions.

Crashing economies in California by theft through scheming in the power markets. Maybe crashing the whole coutries economy, I don't know.

Not paying workers a fair days wage.

Closing plants and diverting money that should have paid insurance, then escaping through legal chicancery.

Killing thousands, because they wanted the oil.

Manipulating voting, through bogus voting machines.

Perverting justice. Jailing innocents without trial. Torture.

Is this evil?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
29. Bush (and the cabal behind him) are EVIL
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 07:06 PM by leftofthedial
Neoconservatives are EVIL

True conservatives are wrong, but not evil.
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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yes they
are pure evil to the core.
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