Looking for help to rebut the "The US was founded on Christian principles"

[truizm]

myth. And the following article:

----
The Bible, and Christian principles in general, are being censored from our public schools - in fact, from the whole "public square." Under the guise of adhering to the "separation of church and state doctrine," judges and other government officials are disallowing Christianity in the growing number of arenas administered by the United States government.

The censorship is swift and complete, effectively compartmentalizing the church's influence in the world. As John Eidsmoe says,

"Those who object to Christian expression in public life frequently use the phrase as a code-word to mean, separation of church from reality. They say, 'Christians can stay in church and pray and sing, but leave the real problems of the world to us.'"

As Christians, we realize that the real problems of the world can only be solved with reference to Biblical Christian principles. But recently Christians have been told that such an attitude is "unconstitutional; "that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution includes a clause that calls for the separation of church and state. Many people now espouse the belief that American government was designed to include "an impenetrable wall" separating church and state.

If this is true, then the Christian is violating the founding principles of our country when he or she calls for Christianity to be voiced in the public square. But is it true?

Absolutely not. The First Amendment does not include the phrase "separation of church and state." It reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Nowhere does the First Amendment suggest that Christianity cannot be heard in the public square.

Robert L. Cord accurately describes the true intention of the religion clause in the First Amendment:

"egarding religion, the First Amendment was intended to accomplish three purposes. First, it was intended to prevent the establishment of a national church or religion, or the giving of any religious sect or denomination a preferred status. Second, it was designed to safeguard the right of freedom of conscience in religious beliefs against invasion solely by the national Government. Third, it was so constructed in order to allow the States, unimpeded, to deal with religious establishments and aid to religious institutions as they saw fit."

The founding fathers did not include the First Amendment in the Constitution to disallow Christianity from influencing state-established institutions; on the contrary, America's founding fathers expected our nation to be (on the whole) Christian, and our government to reflect that bias.

This appears to be a reasonable understanding of the First Amendment - far more reasonable than asserting that it erected an impenetrable wall of separation. And it becomes even more reasonable when one considers the words and actions of America's settlers, founders and leaders.

The first act of the United States Congress was to authorize the printing of 20,000 Bibles for the Indians. Further,

"When our first President, under the new Constitution, received the request of both Houses of Congress concerning a national declaration of a public day of Thanksgiving and Prayer, 'George Washington...issued a National Thanksgiving Proclamation' without any apparent concern that he might be mixing government and religion."


The men who founded our country clearly wedded it to Christian principles. "By today's standards," as syndicated columnist Don Feder says, "the founding fathers were the religious right."

Author Tim LaHaye says that...

"This Christian consensus is easily verified by the fact that prior to 1789 (the year that eleven of the thirteen states ratified the Constitution), many of the states still had constitutional requirements that a man must be a Christian in order to hold public office."

This Christian consensus was understood by leaders long after the American Revolution, as well. Abraham Lincoln, in 1863, called for a "National Fast Day," citing the fact that...

"We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven ...But we have forgotten God."

When one examines history, one cannot avoid the conclusion that America was founded on Christian principles and the assumption that her citizenry would adhere to those same principles.

Unfortunately, the modern interpretation of the First Amendment ignores historical fact. Instead, it provides a convenient vehicle for Secular Humanism to achieve control over the public square.

The reason for this is simple: there is no such thing as a value-free society or institution - someone's values must prevail. Some worldview must "fill the vacuum" left by the eradication of the Christian worldview from public education, social services, courtrooms, etc. By distorting the First Amendment, the United States government has allowed Humanist values to prevail. As LaHaye points out,

"The true meaning of the first amendment has been turned on its head during the past fifty years: In this decade, those who practice the religion of secular humanism are able to use the power of the federal government to impose their religion on the vast majority of the population."

The danger of Secular Humanism prevailing in our society is quite simply, the oldest danger recorded in the Bible: men setting themselves up as God. The moral framework of our universe guarantees terrible consequences for the country that grants sovereignty to something other than God - because in such circumstances sovereignty ultimately becomes the property of the state.

"Man is a spiritual being;" says Benjamin Hart, "when one faith is eliminated, a new god will rush in to fill the spiritual void. Through out history, there has been a man-made god called the state." When the state holds ultimate authority, government officials may commit whatever atrocities they like, because only the state may determine what is right and wrong.

America must choose. Either we ignore the intentions of our founding fathers and grant sovereignty to the state (clearing the way for Hitlers and Stalins to reign once again), or we bow humbly before the one true God, and - without establishing Christianity as the mandatory religion for all citizens - obey God's principles for justice.

True freedom can only exist in a land governed according to the principles set forth in Romans 13:3-4:

"For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrong-doer."

[Union Thug]

1. My answer to this...

Who the hell cares? This is the 21st century, not the bloody middle ages. Get over it fundiemaniacs.

[Donkeyboy75]

It IS actually a relevant question.

But the answers put forth in this "article" are silly and pure conjecture.

[Burma Jones]

2. We were founded on Deist Principles

http://www.deism.com/

God Exists, there is some sort of higher being, but it ain't necessarily Jesus.

[hiphopnation]

37. Bingo!

:thumbsup:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0040.html

Edit: see this article on the topic.

[donco6]

3. Here's my rebuttal:

The Bible is utterly irrelevant to me and my life.

The rest of it is the usual Christian Reconstructionism. Google Rushdoony and you'll find tons of refutation material.

[Donkeyboy75]

4. Wow, this is a bunch of crap.

Tell whoever wrote this to read the Federalist papers, then get back to you on how the U.S. was supposed to be a "Christian nation."

This article is crap, anyway. When the name "God" is invoked, it does NOT necessarily mean Christianity. And Jefferson was not a practicing Christian. He was a deist, who believed in God as a "watchmaker," who created, but did not interfere.

[Sandpiper]

5. Here you go, an official State document

Signed by President of the United States John Adams and ratified by the United States Senate.

TREATY OF PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP
BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
AND THE BEY AND SUBJECTS
OF TRIPOLI OF BARBARY
8 Stat. 154, Treaty Series 358

Treaty signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796, and at Algiers January 3, 1797.
Senate advice and consent to ratification June 7, 1797.
Ratified by the President of the United States June 10, 1797
Entered into force June 10, 1797
Proclaimed by the President of the United States June 10, 1797.
ARTICLE 11

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religous opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."


(John Adams, 1797-05-27, Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. Treaties and Other International Acts of America, ed. Hunter Miller)

[truizm]

15. I already quoted Article 11. His response was...

'Sure, we're not founded on the Christian RELIGION but we are founded on Christian principles.' Lol. He further said that the US Constitution was founded on these seven principles: individuality, self-government, Christian character, property, Christian form of government, sowing and reaping, and unity and union.

[Sandpiper]

22. Christian form of government?

Our model of government is based on the thoroughly pagan Roman Republic.

Please challenge your friend to find anything in the New Testament that resembles representative democracy.

[truizm]

24. I challenged him on all seven, then he said:

"Well, the point is that we were founded on Christian principles. Read this article

."

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

35. and did you buy that?

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

Thomas Jefferson, in Toward the Mystery

[truizm]

43. Lol, no I didn't buy that. The reason I posted the article

was because I've never informed myself much about the Separation of Church and State issue.

[apnu]

28. that's awesome!

What a great trump card. It even has John Adams! Nice!

[rfranklin]

6. No one said you can't preach in public...

but public schools cannot be used as churches.

The founding fathers wanted to escape the grasp of the Anglican church which was part of the government in England and there were many sects of Protestants, Catholics and yes, even Jews in America in 1776. While most of the founding fathers were "deists," believing in a god, they did not promoted Christianity because the church had been used as an instrument of government and persecution in Europe.

[DinahMoeHum]

7. Try this link. . .the fundies should read their own country's history.

Link:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

". . .the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion. . ."

"Treaty of Tripoli" (scroll down)


:kick:

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. How about

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=aboutau


Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[mmonk]

9. There are plenty of quotes

by the founding fathers and others you can use to disprove their myth.

[truizm]

19. I've already done that. He doesn't seem to understand, oh well.....

I'm mainly interested in this Separation of Church and State argument.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

10. I may oversimplify the argument, but

... I'm sorry. My 'belief system' or my 'desire to do right' does not rest on the government displaying any religious symbols. The only thing I need for the government to do is NOT interfere with my PERSONAL beliefs or my desire to do right for MYSELF.

I really pity the person who feels he is losing his salvation because of his GOVERNMENT not dictating which religious symbols are acceptable or appropriate.

Can you really imagine the Christian dream of standing before the pearly gates and St Peter saying 'Oh sorry, you said your prayers every night but because in the 2nd grade your teacher didn't FORCE you to pray before lunch, well, go Cheney yourself in Hell"??

[LuminousX]

11. Why Rebut it?

Yes, it was founded on Christian principles, mainly because Christianity permeated Europe and the early American colonists were a product of that environment. That does not mean that America was meant to be a Christian nation. No early flags for the country ever depicted a cross and in one treat signed with the Barbary pirate, it is stated that the United States is blind to religion.

So agree with the people who assert that but let them know that it doesn't mean no other religion is allowed here or that Christianity deserves to be favored. Past bias does not authorize future preference.

[Donkeyboy75]

14. But these "Christian" principles are also the principles of many

religions. So I think it's disingenuous to say that the nation was founded on Christian principles. It sounds exclusionary and is misleading.

[Beware the Beast Man]

18. Exactly

The Ten Commandments run along parallel lines to many other law codes in ancient and modern times. A lot of it is just common sense: don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, etc.

On a side note- that's why I just can't see the big flap over removing the 10 Commandments from courthouses. It's a part of legal history, if you look at it in a certain way.

[LuminousX]

59. Who cares how it sounds, it isn't exclusionary

and we cannot deny that Europe is pretty much Christianized (look at all the crosses on the flags).

The difference is under the Constitution, the founders wanted to move beyond religion. So, no reason to rebut, just accept and move on or point out that the 'principles' were mainly 'European' principles which happen to be influenced strongly by Christianity.

[ixion]

12. The separation of Church and State

And by state, that includes public schools. Religion should not be taught in a public school. That's what private schools are for.

The Founding Fathers intended for religion to be a personal thing, which is why there is a Freedom of Religion article in the Bill of Rights. Freedom of religion is more than a choice between Lutheran and Catholic... it is the freedom to define 'god' in terms that mean something to you.

Christians have hijacked to word god (and much of the english language for that matter) but that doesn't make it correct. The word 'god' means many things to many people, but the essence is the same.

God is not specific to brand Christian, as much as they would like you to think that it is.

That's the 'Church' part.

The 'State' part is supposed to facilitate the public infrastructure and stay out of people's personal private lives and/or lifestyle choices. That is truly the American Way.

[Loonman]

13. Newer website does good job

http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html

[prolesunited]

16. The "Talibornagains" truly scare me

Either we ignore the intentions of our founding fathers and grant sovereignty to the state (clearing the way for Hitlers and Stalins to reign once again), or we bow humbly before the one true God, and - without establishing Christianity as the mandatory religion for all citizens - obey God's principles for justice.

Quite a leap in logic there. If we rule by logic and reason, of course Hitler or Stalin type will be in control. :eyes:

I like how they stop short of saying that Christianity will be mandatory. However, if all the laws are based on their interpretation of the Bible and social programs are run by their churches, won't be all be ruled by their God?

[SemperEadem]

69. exactly my point, too

I like how they stop short of saying that Christianity will be mandatory.

Those who promote what he's promoting need to define which Christian principles they're talking about... Protestant or Catholic? What about Jewish principles, which was the foundation of the Christian priciple? Once the country is all nice and christian, what will be their 'platform' in regards to Jews or Muslims or Buddists or Hindu or other non-Jesus based religions?

And when they get their little utopia, exactly which sect is going to be the official Christian religion of the US? What is going to happen to those who refuse to change from their belief to adopt the official one? Would he sanction out-right murder or imprisonment and/or attainder through heresy laws? That is the reason why there is a separation of church and state.. because the church was the state in the countries from which our founding fathers came.

None will be forthcoming with their plan, which smacks of deceit, which isn't supposed to be a christian trait. They're supposed to tell the truth all the time when asked. The fundemental-cases are trying to open a door through which even they would refuse to walk. This is about control and domination of people and their options, not about the principles upon which they should be living. They've forgotten the "Nero mentality", which they're wanting to indulge on those who won't tow the line, was once used brutally on them.

[Q3JR4]

17. In the quote

"egarding religion, the First Amendment was intended to accomplish three purposes. First, it was intended to prevent the establishment of a national church or religion, or the giving of any religious sect or denomination a preferred status. Second, it was designed to safeguard the right of freedom of conscience in religious beliefs against invasion solely by the national Government. Third, it was so constructed in order to allow the States, unimpeded, to deal with religious establishments and aid to religious institutions as they saw fit."

says it all. The national government is prohibited from setting up a national Christian religion, or even holding one religious view above all others. Yes, the states have the right to make decisions for themselves in regards to this issue and many others, but those decisions cannot trump the protections contained in the first amendment. Our court system does what it does not for any other purpose than to interpret the constitution.

As to history, a resolution was submitted to the constitutional convention that would have made a reference to the idea that this nation was founded on Christian principles. It would also have recognized God as the sole source of law. The resolution was soundly rejected.

Quote the founders in support of religion, and I'll quote you some of my own quotes showing just the opposite. By most historical accounts, the founders were diests. The closest thing (at the time) to aethiests.

Personally, I'm glad that we are where we are now in regards to this issue. If not we would still have slavery and a host of other national "sins" protected by biblical passages (slave owners had to stand before a court and quote biblical passages on slavery to get any equal rights case dropped).

Finally, as has been said here, it doesn't really matter. The courts interpret the law, that's their job. No matter what the founders said or believed, they expected the interpretation of the law to change. That's why we have three branches of government rather than two (as the religious right would have you believe).

[soundfury]

20. Is genocide a Christian principle?

Of course not, but we obtained the country by committing genocide against the American Indians.

Is slavery a Christian principle?

Of course not, but the US was built on the backs of slaves.

The US was founded on genocide and slavery.

People who try to sugarcoat this indulge in revisionist history.

[Sandpiper]

21. Here are quotes from several Founding Fathers

With respect to Christianity

John Adams

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_03_19_archive.php

Thomas Jefferson

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_03_15_archive.php

James Madison

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_03_14_archive.php

Benjamin Franklin

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_03_16_archive.php

Ethan Allen

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_03_17_archive.php

George Washington

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_03_12_archive.php

Thomas Paine

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_03_13_archive.php

[MISSDem]

23. I would like the same help. Lately, I am repeatedly

confronted with people saying these same things and when I try to assert that we should maintain the separation of church and state, they start with the "we have in God we trust on our money", etc. Personally, I think that the country could just as well be governed by the thoughts set forth by Lao-tzu, especially number 57 from Tao Te Ching.

[truizm]

26. In God We Trust wasn't added to our coins until 1909...

And it wasn't until 1955 that "In God We Trust" appeared on all our bills.

I really doubt they'll care about that, but they might.

[Donkeyboy75]

27. And again, "God" doesn't mean a Christian God.

[MissAnnThrope]

49. You're right...

... God doesn't always mean a Christian God. But what about, oh, say, Dianic Wiccans who reject the male principle and worship only the triple fold Goddess? What about all the other Goddesses in Pagan religions? When people hear God, they hear the God of Abraham. They don't hear God from other religions, as God in other religions tends to have a name that's used to identify him.

Now let's examine this statement from the article:

"America must choose. Either we ignore the intentions of our founding fathers and grant sovereignty to the state (clearing the way for Hitlers and Stalins to reign once again), or we bow humbly before the one true God, and - without establishing Christianity as the mandatory religion for all citizens - obey God's principles for justice.

The one true God to this writer is the God of Abraham. Which means Judaism, Christianity and Islam are acceptable, even Satanism becomes acceptable, as all are based on the same God. The disagreement comes in on who the true prophet or savior is.

This one true God is not the God of Hindus, Buddhists (who technically have no God), Wiccans, Druids, and Pagans of other varieties. We're talking about different deities altogether.

The writer of this article really does need to be informed that Hitler wasn't an atheist, but a Catholic who was never excommunicated for his genocide, or his practicing of the black arts. But I guess if it gets your argument across...

[Donkeyboy75]

60. I totally agree with you.

I was, and always do, attack the idiot fundies who automatically equate "God" with "Christianity." But this, as you so eloquently write, still doesn't jive with many religions.

That to me is a bit harder to reconcile, as the founding fathers do clearly invoke "God" in many official documents. I prefer to regard the use of "God" as purely symbolic. I really don't believe Jefferson meant that monotheistic religions were the only answer.

[MISSDem]

62. using Google I found where it says that

in God we trust was first put on our coins in 1866.

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

42. Perhaps they should look at our Constitution rather than our money.

But it does tell you something about those who would use that argument.

[truizm]

44. That's a great line. nt

[apnu]

25. well, hit this point by point..

quote: "Absolutely not. The First Amendment does not include the phrase 'separation of church and state.' It reads:

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.'"

Not true! Tell them to re-read the first amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." A simpler way to say that is the phrase "Separation of church and state." This moron, is not only illiterate, but (like all fundies) takes things too literally. No one, that I know of, ever said that "separation of church and state" is in the Constitution, but the "separation of church and state clause" is the first amendment.

"Nowhere does the First Amendment suggest that Christianity cannot be heard in the public square."

Now this idiot is just making stuff up. Technically its true, but separation of church and state have nothing to do with "public squares" It has to do with the government endorsing any religion. Something this widget head is looking to do.

Robert L. Cord? Tim LaHaye? Who are these people? I've never heard of them, if this article wants to have credibility, then they need bigger and better names. If you are arguing about the religious intent of our founders, then look to them for answers! They've all written reams of notes an journals, and Thomas Jefferson's (the main author of our government) left volumes of writings, explanations and warnings for us.

" 'When our first President, under the new Constitution, received the request of both Houses of Congress concerning a national declaration of a public day of Thanksgiving and Prayer, "George Washington...issued a National Thanksgiving Proclamation" without any apparent concern that he might be mixing government and religion.' " -- supposedly Robert L. Cord

OK, this guy needs to get a dictionary, and needs to learn how to use single and double quotes. Notice the "..." that means a large chunk of text was dropped, what was that text Mr. fundie wacko? And, Proclamation does not equal Prayer. Look it up.

"'The true meaning of the first amendment has been turned on its head during the past fifty years: In this decade, those who practice the religion of secular humanism are able to use the power of the federal government to impose their religion on the vast majority of the population.'" -- Tim LaHaye

Now they are rewriting history. Fifty years ago we had a God fearing government? What is this guy talking about? Fifty years ago this nation was in the grip of McCarthyism and "the Red Menace" In my study of history, I don't recall the president or congress running around blending Christianity and government.

Well I could go on in this way, but I'm sure you get the point now. This is how I'd argue against this drivel, but you've got to find your own voice in this area and battle back.

Best of luck to you and your debate.

[truizm]

30. Heh, thanks.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. Tim LaHaye is the author of the Left Behind books, so

he's not exactly a trustworthy source on the history of the American Constitution.

I bet this person also believes, as Pat Robertson said about ten years ago, that "Christians" are as persecuted in America today as Jews were in Nazi Germany. :eyes:

[apnu]

55. thanks Lydia Leftcoast

we need to keep diggin' in the dirt and pulling out the weeds in our national garden. In other words, these people need to be exposed as the jackals that they are.

[seabeyond]

29. give them this.......founding fathers

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

- Thomas Jefferson

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

- Thomas Jefferson

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

- John Adams

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

-James Madison

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

-James Madison

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

-Thomas Paine

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Patrick Henry has been quoted as saying that, but as to the context, and the source I am not sure.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. A Deist according to Webster's is (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible (The Jefferson Bible), of which I own a copy. It TOTALLY removes all accounts of the divinity of Christ and all of the miracles - including the virgin birth. Benjamin Franklin was raised Episcopalian, but was also a Deist. John Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but later became a Unitarian. Here are what some of the other founders had to say about it.

John Adams:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams again:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Still more John Adams:

“...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

James Madison again:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

Finally, a word from Abraham Lincoln:


The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[apnu]

32. I guess you've had this conversation before. ;) n/t

[seabeyond]

63. lol lol yup, n/t

:)

[Hoping4Change]

31. COPY OF FRANKLIN'S DEIST DOCTRINE

Ben Franklin published the American Deist doctrine in 1731(see below).

...it is a purely rational concept of God and religion,
---------------------------------------------------------------------

*************Doctrine to be Preached*****************************

That there is one God Father of the Universe.


That he is infinitely good, powerful and wise.


That he is omnipresent.


That he ought to be worshipped, by Adoration Prayer and Thanksgiving both in public and in private.


That he loves such of his creatures as love and do good to others: and will reward them either in this World or hereafter.


That Men's minds do not die with their bodies, but are made more happy or miserable after this life according to their actions.


That Virtuous men ought to league together to strengthen the interest of Virtue, in the World: and so strengthen themselves in Virtue.


That Knowledge and Learning is to be cultivated, and ignorance dissipated.

That none but the virtuous are wise.

That Man's perfection is in Virtue.

http://n4bz.org/gsr8/gsr806.htm


If you want more information do a google search using the phrase "deism and the american revolution"

[On the Road]

33. The Best Argument is the US Constitution

Remember that many local governments had strong religious ties, such as the Plymouth colony. These were well-known predecents. The Constitution specifically rejected those in establishing separation of church and state.

Arguments like this tend to muddy some very important distinctions:

"This Christian consensus is easily verified by the fact that prior to 1789 (the year that eleven of the thirteen states ratified the Constitution), many of the states still had constitutional requirements that a man must be a Christian in order to hold public office."

Yes, they may have, but this shows that those requirements were rejected when the Constitution was written.

The founding fathers obviously did not mean to exclude all references to God from public life. Even deists like Franklin led public prayers when the government was being worked out. This is the one valid point in articles like this.

However, the article jumps from general references to God to a quote from Romans that is completely at odds with the constitution and the whole idea of a self-governing democracy with checks and balances. Romans has been used as a proof text to argue for the divine right of kings. It was a tory argument that supporters of George III made. The founders were well acquainted with this and rejected it.

What articles like this miss is that the founders considered a belief in God fully compatible with humanism. What they did not consider compatible was relations with an organized church, the claim that the government was ordained by God, or that the government should follow a literal belief in the Bible.

The lines were drawn differently then. The vast majority of people believed in God, but not necessarily the Bible and definitely not the organized church, which they viewed with extreme suspicion. The founders rebelled against a government with an official church and made sure they did not found another one. John Adams even considered it a violation of the first amendment for the census to count the number of ministers.

I wish I had more specifics, but that's my view. The founders freely mentioned God in the abstract, but had very different theologies and very different idea on how the church and religious principles should be incorporated into law.

[checks-n-balances]

34. Google is fast way to do research & here are some articles that may help

Myths & Misinformation:
http://www.buildingequality.us/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html

Church and state in early New England
http://www.buildingequality.us/ifas/fw/9606/newengland.html

The Religious Right - Revealed link page (scroll down)
(including "how to fight the right" & DU!)
http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/

About the true nature of the American RR
http://www.webpan.com/dsinclair/rright.html

(some of these may be a little dated, but still good)

"What used to be called liberal is now called radical;
what used to be called radical is now called insane;
and what used to be called reactionary is now called moderate.. or compasionate;
and what used to be called insane is now solid conservative thinking."
Katrina vanden Heuvel, Editor of The Nation

[wryter2000]

36. Our Founders speak

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and
the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the
total separation of the church from the state."

James Madison

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights.
Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
Thomas Jefferson

[Cats Against Frist]

38. I know this one! I know this one!!!!

The founders based our principles on the principles of the Enlightenment -- ideas based on secular humanism intended to throw off both the yoke of the King (or ruling class) and of the Church.

One really great way to get them is to point out "The Jefferson Bible," wherein TJ expressly states that he is not a spiritualist, but a materialist -- and cuts out the parts of the Bible he thinks are hokey.

In addition -- I think it was John Adams that wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

My question is this: WHAT did the founders put in place to assure that if the populace became so dumb and apathetic that they, in essence, voted BACK IN King & Church? (In other words, the GOP...)

C

[Nomad559]

39. As required by the government of Spain

http://members.aol.com/magastodu/americanindianhistory/aih04.htm

As required by the government of Spain, the early Spanish explorers to the New World had to pronounce the following statement to any native they might encounter:


We ask and require you... to acknowledge the Church as ruler and superior of the whole world, and the high priest called the Pope and his name the King as lords of... terra firma... , we... shall leave you, your wives and children, and your lands, free without servitude.... But if you do not ... we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you.... We shall take you, and your wives, and your children, and shall make slaves of them.... and we shall take away your goods and shall do you all the harm and damage we can.

[wryter2000]

40. And furthermore...

Secular Humanism doesn't own the public square, either. This isn't an anti-religious government, it's an areligious one. I can no more place something in a courthouse that states "There is no God," than they can post the 10 Commandments.

And if he tries to give the you crap that our laws are based on the 10 Commandments, tell him that's tripe. There's no law against graven images, none that commands people to honor their mothers and fathers. We're free to covet it we want. The only overlap is laws against murder. Even bearing false witness is okay unless you do it under oath. If you really want to see his head spin, tell him Roy Moore's statue is a graven image and in violation of one of the commandments.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Not a founder, but a good reason.

"It is difficult to believe in a religion that places
such a high premium on chastity and virginity."

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

45. Actually

I think the US was founded by a bunch of wealthy, educated men who used the values they had received during their upbringing to reflect the government they created.
The whole point was to have a government that did not interfere with the lives of citizens without the citizens having some say. One of those things the founders wished to be protected from was a state ordained religion. But it wasn't the ONLY thing.
You know, the folks who worry so much about the government adhering to Christian principles and wanting to trumpet their belief in same remind me of the parable Jesus told about the good Samaritan and the Pharisees. Guess whom I am reminded of when this stuff comes up?

[DrWeird]

46. Easy.

The first amendment contradicts the first commandment.

[redqueen]

47. Helpful quotes

This page is my favorite. :)


http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html

It always helps to look at the words of those who were the actual founders and creators of this nation two hundred and twenty six years ago. Witness the truth of the matter.

I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. , in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson

The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by it to this filthy book .
Thomas Paine

For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it.
Thomas Jefferson

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.
Thomas Jefferson

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
Thomas Paine

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine

My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
Thomas Paine

Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
George Washington

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.
George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790


Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction.
George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102


If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists....
George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical.
George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.
George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

With just these examples, you have the facts necessary to rebut any fundamentalist who proclaim this to be a Christian nation "just as the founding fathers desired".

The fact of the matter is much simpler. Every single nation that has ever been forced into the folly of following any of the silly superstitions invented by the greedy and ignorant has come to ruin and catastrophe. The single most fatal disease that can afflict any government is to be inflicted with the wasting infection of any fundamental religious disorder. Witness every single nation ruined by the sickness of fundamentalist Islamic governments. Witness the depths of evil that America has descended into now that self described fundamentalist Christians have stolen away your government and dedicated its future to the murder of anyone with the least hesitation in following along with their evil plans for the world and the oil it holds. God doesn't care about nations or governments or politicians. Why would any god worthy of the title care so much as things of so little value?

[kiahzero]

48. Simple

Look at the 10 Commandments that the fundies want to put up at every turn.

No worshipping of other gods VS First Amendment.
No graven images (artwork) VS First Amendment.
No false oaths - Supported in contract law
Keep the sabbath - not enforced
Honor mother & father - not enforced
No killing - Supported
No adultery - not enforced
No stealing - Supported
No false witness - Supported in perjury law
No coveting - Repudiated in capitalist system

So, out of the 10 Commandments, four are held up in our system of government. Interestingly, the four are the ones that are the most secular - honor your contracts, don't kill people, don't steal from people, and don't lie about other people.

The "Based on Christian Principles" meme is bullshit.

[SemperEadem]

70. well done n/t

[bushwakker]

50. Ben Franklin proposed beginning each session of the Con Con

with a prayer. His suggestion was rejected.

[MUSTANG_2004]

54. But why was it rejected?

Because they couldn't afford to pay the minister, not because they rejected the idea. At least according to "Miracle at Philadelphia".

[bushwakker]

57. According to Brands' First American

Franklin wrote "the convention, except three or four persons, thought prayers unnecessary." There were apparently various proposals in this vein but all died from seeming lack of interest. I believe these wealthy and powerful men could have come up with the funds to pay a chaplain had they deemed it important enough.

[playahata1]

51. Ask him:

IF (YOUR IDEA OF) CHRISTIANITY IS SO STRONG, WHY DO YOU NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO LEGITIMIZE IT?

These people really freak me out.

[doni_georgia]

52. Get yourself a copy of the Jefferson Bible - and check out this web site

This translation was written by Thomas Jefferson and leaves out ANYTHING supernatural (virgin birth, angels appearing, the ressurection), and omits any reference to Jesus as son of God or being divine in any way. You can get a copy through the Unitarian Universalist Association bookstore. Pretty much sums up Jefferson's beliefs about Christianity.

In addition, there is a very good web site refuting this argument:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

[Rebellious Republican]

56. Religion and the Constitution: The Triumph of Practical Politics

Here are your arguments based on the Quakers beliefs, you have to use religion against religion its the only way to shut their talking points down. William Penn believed that all people should have the freedom of religion, thats why the constitution is not based on christian beliefs! All are excellent links, read them and use them wisely ......

One of William Penn's mottos was: "Liberty without obedience is confusion, and obedience without liberty is slavery". The first time he applied this wisdom was in his writing the "Concessions and Agreements" which served as a constitution for the little province of West Jersey; he said: "There we lay a foundation for after ages to understand their liberty as men and Christians, that they may not be brought in bondage but by their own consent; for we put the power in the people. And later when preparing for the Government of Pennsylvania, he wrote: "Any government is free to the people under it whatever be the frame, where the laws rule and the people are a party to those laws." It is said that under Penn's frame of government, "Pennsylvania became the most consistently free colony in the country, the most consistently prosperous, the most rapid in its growth in freedom and prosperity." After the Declaration of Independence in 1776 all the newly independent colonies adopted new constitutions and it is natural that they looked toward Pennsylvania for, as Andrew Hamilton, Speaker of the Assembly, said: Pennsylvania owed her peace and prosperity not to the fertility of her soil, but to the excellence of her constitution. Another important point of view from the standpoint of democracy was religious liberty. Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Delaware, the three colonies in which the Society of Friends was strongest, were the only three that did not have a state church. Furthermore, Penn provided for change of the constitution if found necessary. At one time he said to his Assembly: "Friends, if in the constitution by charter there be anything that jars, alter it. If you want a law for this or that, prepare it ... Study peace and be at unity."
http://members.tripod.com/~PlainfieldFriends/regen3.htm

http://www.watertown.k12.ma.us/americanhistorycentral/05europeansinnamerica/Pennsylvania.html

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/William_Penn


"It is one of the striking facts of American history that the American Revolution was led by men who were not very religious," wrote Gordon Wood in New York History. "At the best the Founding Fathers only passively believed in organized Christianity and at worst they scorned and ridiculed it." When asked why the Constitution did not mention God, Alexander Hamilton is said to have answered, "We forgot."
http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item_id=182

Even Jefferson, sanguine and optimistic as he had always been, was reduced to despair in his last years and to what seems to us today to be an embarrassing fire-eating defense of his South and states' rights. He hated the new democratic world he saw emerging in America--a world of speculation, banks, paper money, and evangelical Christianity that he thought he had laid to rest. <...> More than any of the revolutionary leaders, he had relied on the future to take care of itself. Progress, he thought, was on the march, and science and enlightenment were everywhere pushing back the forces of ignorance, superstition and darkness. The people in a liberal democratic society would be capable of solving every problem, if not in his lifetime, then surely in the coming years.

But Jefferson lived too long, and the future and the coming generation were not what he had expected. Jefferson was frightened by the popularity of Andrew Jackson, regarding him as a man of violent passions and unfit for the presidency. He felt overwhelmed by the new paper-money business culture sweeping through the country and never appreciated how much his democratic and egalitarian principles had contributed to its raise. Ordinary people, in whom Jefferson had placed so much confidence, more than his friend Madison, were not becoming more enlightened after all.
Yes, thank God for Madison (and Hamilton) whose greater skepticism about the plasticity of mankind and about the prospect of the dawning of a new epoch of virtue led to the aforementioned Constitution and protected us from truly unfettered democracy.

In the end, the America that the revolution created was not the republic that its leaders intended and therein lies its radicalism. Thus there's an ineffable sadness in the final paragraph of the book:
A new generation of democratic Americans was no longer interested in the revolutionaries' dream of building a classical republic of elitist virtue out of the inherited materials of the Old World. America, they said, would find its greatness not by emulating the states of classical antiquity, not by copying the fiscal-military powers of modern Europe, and not by producing a few notable geniuses and great-souled men. Instead, it would discover its greatness by creating a prosperous free society belonging to obscure people with their workaday concerns and their pecuniary pursuits of happiness--common people with their common interests in making money and getting ahead. No doubt the cost that America paid for this democracy was high--with its vulgarity, its materialism, its rootlesness, its anti-intellectualism. But there is no denying the wonder of it and the real earthly benefits it brought to the hitherto neglected and despised masses of common laboring people. ?The American Revolution created this democracy, and we are living with its consequences still.
A phrase from John Updike seems a fitting epitaph for the republican revolution that went awry: "The fact that we still live well cannot ease the pain of feeling that we no longer live nobly."
http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/1275/Radicalism%20o.htm


http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Classic_definition_of_republic

[greekspeak]

58. When are these nut jobs going to stop?

Fundies want the ten commandments shoved down everyone's throats and will break them to further their own agenda. F-ing hypocrites. It is a LIE that in 1963 the Supreme court banned prayer in public schools. Prayer is STILL not banned in public schools. But these nut jobs will lie through their teeth to further their own hatemongering agenda. When they say "prayer in school," they mean coerced, Christian prayers offered over the loud speaker and requirements for each student to pray. And they harp on Secular Humanism and they do not have any idea what it means. It does not accept a god, therefore it is commie librul devil worshippers trying to brainwash children. Hyperbole, hyperbole, and again, hyperbole. And they think gay men can be drama queens? Sheesh. No homosexual male I know can hold a candle to fundies that want to force everyone to cowtow before THEIR god.

[Malva Zebrina]

61. Christian fundamentalism and even Christian support of Bush

in whatever form, as in the current Catholic Bishops threatenting to punish anyone who votes for Kerry, can do more to destroy Christianity than any secular humanist, or any atheist.

[bleedingedge]

64. The LaHaye quote is telling:

"This Christian consensus is easily verified by the fact that prior to 1789 (the year that eleven of the thirteen states ratified the Constitution), many of the states still had constitutional requirements that a man must be a Christian in order to hold public office."

Notice that he says "Oh yeah, there was a Christian concensus, certainly, for sure" but...

In the same breathe says that PRIOR to the Constitution's ratification, these 11 states had protections in favor of Christians, not after.

This quote is essentially a tacit admission that the separation of church into an arena separate from politics and government was a part of the Constitution! Otherwise, those same 11 states would have kept their provisos intact, allowing only Christians to represent the populous.

As someone else has already stated, it's one thing to say we were founded on "Christian principles" and quite another to say we're a "Christian nation". LaHaye's quote affirms the former (which is harmless) and disproves the latter (which is virulent).

Phalange

P.S. And the fact that a "Christian concensus" don't mean shit because nobody asked the Goddamned noble savages and negros what the hell they believed in in 1776. If you took a census of those two groups, their population is bound to have some sort of impact on the concept of a "concensus". This concludes the Vice-Presidential-language section of the post.

[aden_nak]

65. Linkage

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

[bobbyboucher]

66. Why are you posting Talibornagain talking points?

The founding fathers are well quoted on the matter. Quit posting that rubbish.

[TheMightyFavog]

68. Know thy enemy, my friend.

Just like the old mob saying, Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

[liberalpragmatist]

67. B/c the Founders Were SECULAR

There are really two good arguments:
1. The founders were VERY secular. Sure, there were some religious people in there. But Jefferson was a Deist. So was Franklin. Washington has no personal commitment to any religion whatsoever based on all the evidence. James Madison was EXTREMELY opposed to the government establishing ANY favor towards even GENERAL religion. For James Madison's views on religion in public life see: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcs_what_mrintro.htm.
John Adams, despite coming from a Calvinist background, which impacted some of his lifestyle, was nevertheless a Unitarian and generally distrusted the church and called Christ's divinity "blasphemy." (http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Adams_Family_Religion.htm). For Jefferson, see the recent TIME magazine cover story on Thomas Jefferson, and take a look at this George Washington page:

> http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

"Washington gives us little in his writings to indicate his personal religious beliefs. As noted by Franklin Steiner in "The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents" (1936), Washington commented on sermons only twice. In his writings, he never referred to "Jesus Christ." He attended church rarely, and did not take communion - though Martha did, requiring the family carriage to return back to the church to get her later.

When trying to arrange for workmen in 1784 at Mount Vernon, Washington made clear that he would accept "Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." Washington wrote Lafayette in 1787, "Being no bigot myself, I am disposed to indulge the professors of Christianity in the church that road to heaven which to them shall seem the most direct, plainest, easiest and least liable to exception."

Clear evidence of his personal theology is lacking, even on his deathbed when he died a "death of civility" without expressions of Christian hope. His failure to document beliefs in conventional dogma, such as a life after death, is a clue that he may not qualify as a conventional Christian. Instead, Washington may be closer to a "warm deist" than a standard Anglican in colonial Virginia...

However, there is little in Washington's life to suggest he would support a political movement based primarily on a moral agenda. To make such a claim requires that we project a light upon the monument of Washington, then look at our own reflected light and claim its source to be Washington. The "myth of Washington" created during his life and shortly thereafter by Parson Weems is not static. Even today, Washington's life can be re-shaped when necessary to fulfill the agenda of a modern mythmaker..."

(end of snippet)

The first president that one could say was even a reliably-practicing Christian was Benjamin Harrison. Basically almost ALL our presidents have been relatively secular men with the exception of recent history (Carter, Reagan, Clinton (somewhat), and W). Of course, Reagan and W even moreso have used this for political gain.

***

There is a second reason, which some posters may have already pointed out. It is true that at some point in local communities, school prayers and things could have been held without incident. But the fact remains, even if the US society was predominantly Christian in the 18th Century, in no way is it that way today. 10-15% of the country is atheist, many more are agnostic or mostly secular, there are non-religious Christians, millions of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and followers of other faiths, millions of liberal-practicing Christians. In short, we're the most religiously and philosophically diverse nation on earth (with the probably exception of India) and we need to respect the current-day reality of life in the US and respect religious diversity.

[The Animator]

71. You want ammunition?

Read the DaVinnci Code.


You want reasons why we don't want religion with 50 city blocks of our government.

The Salem Witch Trials, there's a relevant historical precident for you.



Chew on this. When Christianity came to dominance across Europe, it was called the dark ages. Many of the treasures of ancient Greece and Rome (Art, liturature, technology, etc) were lost, destroyed because it offended the sensibilities of a Christian leaning world. The Crusades were waged against the Muslim people of that age, because the Church demanded it. The Pope wielded more power than all the Kings of Europe. Any system wielding that kind of power was doomed to corruption. One needs only to open a World History book for examples.

Then came the Renaisance, an explosion of art, literature, and science. It signified a desire to reclaim the cultural heritage left behind by the Greeks and Romans. The Renaisance ushered in a new ideology, Humanism, which in essence stated that it was unecissary to put all you faith in God. You need not look too an all powerful spirit for guidance, God is not soley responsible for everything good thing that happens.

It's all right to have faith in man. Humanism gave people confidence in their own abilities. They did not need to rely on God to provide things for them, man could accomplish things on his own, and it was okay to say so. Success or failure, in any endeavor, was not a matter of God's will. If a man was to fail, he would have only himself to blame, if he were to suceed, it need not be by the grace of any God.

The Renaisance was a revolution, mankind declared it's independance from the Church. They still held onto their beliefs of God, but the Renaisance was a giant leap in the development of European culture because man felt free to find inspiration, in himself.

Regaurdless of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers, it is apparent this government can ill-afford to be beholden to anyone besides its citizens. A goverment that was founded on the principle of rule through the consent of the governed, should not allow itself to be influenced by anything else.

This is a democracy, not a theocracy, plain and simple.

[Deja Q]

72. Tell them these Biblical references and say those in power are not X'ian:

Ecclesiasticus 13:3-8 (1)


Ecclesiasticus 13:16, 18-23 (1)


Ecclesiasticus 20:1


Ephesians 2:8-9


James 2:14-17


James 5:1-6 (paralleling today's economy)


1 Timothy 6:10


Proverbs 22:16


Mark 12:38-44


Matthew 5:44


Matthew 7:1


Matthew 25:37-40


Luke 6:31


Luke 14:12-14


Luke 17:21


Revelation 3:17


Revelation 22:12




(1) The New Jerusalem Bible, Doubleday Publishing, 1989. This is the fun part about organized religion. So many people have translated the original texts in so many ways, no two versions are alike. Then there's the validity of the "original" text to consider...