Is Religion screwed up naturally, or do people screw it up.

[coloradodem2005]

Personally, I think that many beliefs systems have their merits. Christian and Buhidism for example. What I think makes them go wrong is that people use it to instill fear and bring people down. That is my opinion.

[havocmom]

1. Yes (n/t)

[Sweetpea]

2. I think thinking is screwed up naturally.

[seabeyond]

3. mans interferrence

and i know with the bible anyway, it says it right there boldly for all to see that if it isnt in purity than mans ego has hijacked the message

but then it was mans word that wrote the bible, you can see where there prejudices were written

[donhakman]

6. One clue is

that there is not a single religious text that has not been written by the hand of man.

Or one might say it in a way W could understand...
Every religious text is written by men.

[eleonora]

4. religions morphed with time

I don't see why I should follow any.

[salinen]

5. Man was formed in the image of God

The most dangerous words ever written.

[seabeyond]

9. god is all things all present

we are god, not hard, wink

we are all part of the same lite, source, one. ego just takes over and we seperate ourselves. the more we seperate the more battle and polarity

[Forkboy]

17. God was formed in the image of man

:)

[msmcghee]

7. Your question reveals a misunderstanding of . .

. . both human nature and religion.

We create religion. It is not there without us - without our minds creating it.

It is the glue that holds together whichever worldview we adopt as our own. Without that glue, there is too much uncertainty for many people, probably most people. Uncertainty in dangerous times means insecurity.

People will pay a great deal to avoid insecurity. They will lie to themselves and others and consider it a small price.

[Cat Atomic]

8. There are plenty of religious DU'ers here, but I'll offer my frank

opinion anyway. No offense meant, DUers.

I think religion and magical thinking is a blight on humanity.

It trains people to believe things without evidence. It teaches us that simply believing what we're told to believe is a virtue. That leaves us vulnerable to all sorts of manipulation.

[salinen]

10. Bravo!

[DustMolecule]

11. Yes,...it's true what you say ( along with some other posters

before you), But that's how evil works, doesn't it? It grabs onto some nugget of truth and then twists itself out from there. The 'lazy thinker' will buy the first truthful part and then doesn't question the rest that comes after! That's how a good con-man works! Again, and again, and again a lot of people will believe a lie because AT THE BEGINNING - they were told something that was 'true'....'trust' was earned, but often 'trust' isn't 'KEPT'.

[al bupp]

31. See the nail...

... and hit it on the head! :thumbsup:

[anelson]

12. Religion is an evolutionary dead-end

If humanity can survive the short-term thinking exhibited by those similar to the Bush Admin, I feel secular humanism is the ultimate conclusion to man's quest for connection. Instead of puttng faith in mythic figures, man will ultimately put faith in himself and his peers, seeking to aid and be aided by those around us. Just my 2 cents...

[troublemaker]

13. the question assumes that

you can separate religion's "natural" state from human nature.

[MissAnnThrope]

14. People Screw It Up

Various interpretations of The Bible over the years have screwed it up. For instance, The Virgin Mary in the original language is never referred to as a virgin. It says she was pure. Pure and virginity do NOT go hand in hand. A woman with 10 kids can be pure of heart.

While most people consider the King James Version the definitive version, it is the poorest written version. Then we have to consider how the early Church decided what was going in and what wasn't. During the Middle Ages, the idea of the Church was to get Europe under its thumb and what went in the bible for general distribution was to benefit the Church.

Also, people come up with their own interpretations. Revelation has to do with what was going on at the time the book was written. The Beast was the Roman Empire. But, as people believe what they want to believe, we have all these people who think now the new EU is the beast spoken of in Revelation. That we are in the end times and all the fighting in the Middle East is proof. What about all the fighting in the Middle East during the Crusades? It's just an area that invites war, if you ask me. It's been going on for centuries.

The truth of the matter is, organized religion was never a concept of Jesus. He actually wasn't too fond of the money grubbing ways of the temples. Gotta wonder what he'd think of televangelists, the Catholic Church and other money grubbing religious organizations.

I wish I could find the passage about Jesus saying one needs no church to worship. Or did I hallucinate that passage? Anyone know it offhand?

[AndyTiedye]

23. If Jesus Showed Up Here, Today, They'd Pack Him off to Gitmo

I have no doubt of it.

[porphyrian]

15. Would There Be Religion Without People? - n/t

[Toucano]

16. It's naturally screwed up AND people screw it up.

This theory is a work in progress, so don't expect me to be a guru about it. :)

A god who created the universe would be so big as to be impossible to contain in a book of stories that mortals can comprehend.

There may be elements of universal truth in the world's religions, but none of them explains the divine adequately.

They try to put what some people think they understood about the divine into terms that we can understand, and it ends up a load of contradictory gibberish because the divine resists being understood.

Humanity should accept that there may be something more than the physical world we see and get back to living in the world they can see. When we are capable of understanding more, we will understand more. Everything else is beyond their control, and the universe is unfolding exactly as it should whether we understand it or not.

Either that or religion is just a tool of the man! :)

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlFrankenFan]

19. People n/t

[ronabop]

20. Flaws in the whole thing.

Only when there are flawless humans will there be a flawless religion.

-Bop

[jukes]

21. religion

is fairy-tales for fearful children.

[Solly Mack]

22. "People confuse God with religion"

Something my grandfather, a southern baptist preacher, used to say....

Meaning, people create religion...and then confuse God with the religion they've created.

[randome]

24. The concept of churches screws it up.

I pass by a few churches on the way to work each day. Names like "Harvester Christian Church", "First Baptist Church". Every one of them has the perhaps unintended consequence of dividing people into groups and thus, by implication, deciding that one group is better or more fortunate than another.

Why are there such things as "Jewish" hospital chains and "Baptist" retreats and conventions?

Because people are so downcast in their personal lives that they cling to an institution that makes them feel special?

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. It's the people. Read Richard Bach

for more on that.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Connie_Corleone]

26. Since religion is man made...

People screw it up.

[killbotfactory]

27. People are screwed up, and they make up religions

Religions are all based on people guessing how the world works and trying to get power and money in the process.

[noiretextatique]

28. people screw it up

religion is as valid as any other body of knowledge, imho. it's the way religions are practiced that's all screwed up. if you're not practicing it, then you shouldn't be preaching it...which mean bush should brust into flames any moment now.

[Az]

29. A religion is a system

And like any system it can run out of control.

Some religions are more likely to go out of control. These are the religions that postulate dogmatic authority. Once a religion makes the claim of absolute authority on matters it can become derailed from the societies interests.

[mvd]

30. People screw it up

Religion just means an organized belief system. If it was a mental illness, then much of the world would have a mental illness. Fanaticism is a mental illness.

[PurityOfEssence]

32. screwed up by definition

Spirituality and questioning are one thing, and absent a clear personal contact by some all-whatever, they have to be viewed as works in progress to be honest.

Most major religions try to end the question, and claim that they totally understand how the universe works, thus ending the nightmare of uncertainty. They are dishonest as a result: they don't know how the universe works, and they're afraid of that ignorance. Much of religion is a raging against a fear of insignificance and mortality: we don't want to just be doomed to oblivion, and we'll suck up to any wacky cosmology just to stave off that dreaded end.

Religion may or may not be a form of insanity, but it is a major cause of insanity for a few basic reasons. If there's a plan or sense to the universe, yet we feel beset by events, we feel persecuted or damned. Squaring the rational, observable world with the fantasy one causes endless abrasion, and that which we can see and feel is repeatedly represented to us as inferior to all that we can't. The concept of a big daddy to whom we must kowtow and secure approval makes a slave/child mentality, and takes our essential responsibility away from us. Joy-hating fundies are the worst, and literally have it backwards: everything you can see and touch is unimportant, and all you can't is what matters most; fun and pleasure are all bad, and only bad people allow themselves to indulge.

The heart of most major religions is a lie: they do not know how the universe works, and their guesses smack of primitive superstition to many of us looking at them objectively. They demand allegiance and defy any questioning, even though they have no proof. When people like George Bush make pronouncements without proof like: "Europe is now with us" we justifiably howl; to claim to know how the universe works with even less proof is much sillier, yet religion is widely viewed as a "good" force. Somehow it's in our minds that "faith", the acceptance of something without evidence and the steadfast resistance to any other thesis, is good. It is not. It is extremely bad, as well as anti-social. With an afterlife, you have an out when you kill someone; this shouldn't be so lauded by society, it should be viewed as dangerous.

Religions are also insular and concerned--as are all systems--with their survival. As a result, they shield members of their faith from discovery and then from prosecution and punishment for their crimes. There have been far too many fundies killing their children lately, and somehow it's understandable because of their having heard god's voice. To the rest of us, hearing voices telling us what to do is considered aberrant behavior, and we're kept away from kids.

In Christianity, the focus on personal salvation is quite simply selfish, and the actions in the process are often very anti-social.

More than anything else, religious belief generally demands some form of immunity--or at least extreme dispensation--from the results of its adherents actions. Religion doesn't play fair. Religion also creates an "other", and is inherently anti-democratic by nature. Sure, many believers will say that they consider non-believers or believers in other faiths to have an equal say-so in things, but in truth, they consider their thoughts suspect. Some actually can make the distinction, but the mindset of having a superior oneness with the way things really are is a difficult assumption to override.

Essentially, most religions are based on an irrational lie, and screw up everything as a result, regardless of the good they do along the way. They don't have the answers, and getting people to accept them without proof is the first step to slavery and insanity.

[mvd]

35. As humans, we are curious

We've tried to understand everything else - why not our existence? My problem with religion is that religion lays out so much of a blueprint for living. Someone may agree with most basic principles, but still be forced to believe something they don't truly believe in. I am more spiritual then religious and prefer to have my own relationship with God. Fanatics tend to get undue influence because of how vocal they are. I think salvation/forgiveness is a good thing, though. If we are truly apologetic, that is.

Religion can help with social skills since they involve a group, and the worship can be comforting. And it can organize for good causes. So it's not all bad.

[PurityOfEssence]

36. Then why is so much energy directed at killing curiosity?

That's what faith is, in my book: a deliberate attempt to destroy all questioning and forever banish the unknown. Even if the answer arrived at is contradictory and fraught with inherent unfairness, an answer is better than the abject terror of leaving the issue open.

The major problem with all this politically is that once you get people to accept things without proof, you own them, and once you convince them to subjugate themselves to a superior whatever, then they are forever subservient.

Yes, we are curious, but much human energy is dedicated to crushing all curiosity, and this energy manifests itself in religious doctrine. People who are scared of the possibility that it's all just some glorious accident and we're all finite vent great rage and power against those who keep bringing up the question; curiosity is the sworn enemy of belief.

[mvd]

44. Religion doesn't necessarily mean killing any questioning

I think it's the fault of some of the members for not bringing their beliefs up to date.

[PurityOfEssence]

33. duplicate

n/t

[G_j]

34. "Why Bush Must Go - a Bishop's Faith-based Challenge"

just heard this guy interviewed on our progressive radio station.
I was very much impressed,

Bishop Sims :yourock:

http://www.religionnews.com/press02/PR032204.html

BISHOP MAKES A FAITH-BASED CHALLENGE TO GEORGE W BUSH

(New York, March 19 2004) - President George W. Bush has made his Christian faith and "compassionate conservatism" central to his presidency and campaign for re-election. But just how "Christian" are the assumptions underlying current US domestic and foreign policy?

In a book to be published in June by Continuum, retired Atlanta Bishop Bennett Sims provides a penetrating critique of the religious and political assumptions of the Bush presidency. He sets out contrasting versions of Christianity, both of which may be drawn from the Hebrew-Christian scriptures.

"Why Bush Must Go - a Bishop's Faith-based Challenge" gives a succinct and compelling alternative to the Bush vision of Christian leadership.

Bishop Sims juxtaposes the violent, confrontational concept of power presented by George W. Bush with the enduring power of compassion, justice, and nonviolence exemplified by the Hebrew prophets and Jesus of Nazareth. He rejects the fierce Fundamentalism that expects an imminent and violent end to history and celebrates the movement of prophetic power from the shadows of history to the foreground of political action.

As the presidential campaign gathers momentum this summer, Bishop Sims is the ideal source for answers to questions that will be debated across the nation.

For a copy of "Why Bush Must Go" or to schedule an interview with Bishop Sims, contact Claire England at [e-mail] (212 953 5858).


"Like the minor prophets before him, Bennett Sims has written a small book that packs a major wallop. His mix of religion and politics is as fresh as it is bold, but his critique of power goes well beyond reproof. Having witnessed the worst that people can do, Sims remains an apostle of hope. His practical vision of a peaceable planet is so compelling that only the terminally hard of heart can fail to respond." - Barbara Brown Taylor, author of When God Is Silent

[camero]

37. Greedy people screw it up

Just as they screw up economic systems and political systems. Though some systems are more prone to abuses of power and greed than others.

[Kitsune]

38. Religion is an organization of Faith by people.

Therefore, it is inherently screwed up, because people have never been able to do anything without somehow trying to turn it into an authoritarian power structure. That's just the nature of the beast.

[indepat]

39. Religion is screwed up because far too many people use religion

to promote their own agenda, be it business, social, or political.

[Larkspur]

40. All religions are man-made institutions

Religion is institutionalized spirituality.

[Deja Q]

41. It's quite obvous people wrote the bible. It's also (mis)interpreted by

translators, either innocently or otherwise.

They say good things. They say bad things. Most likely by design.

But we are in Rome. We should do as the Romans do.

[tjwash]

42. That depends on...

...whether you use your religion to advance your politics, or you use your politics to advance your religion. The latter has caused history to be dotted with holy wars, and the blood of millions. The former is what Christ was supposed to be all about. Just MHO.

[Zenaholic]

43. The opiate of the people

IMHO religion was created by our ancestors to try to explain things that were unexplainable (at least back then), like why did that earthquake kill all the people in the village? Or why did it go dark in the middle of the day? Or why did eating that rotten meat kill my wife? It must be because it was the Sabbath (no meat on the Sabbath)

We know now that there are perfectly logical, scientific explanations for all these things but back then it was kind of like an excuse "The gods are angry!" Religion was born in ignorance.

Then man realized religion was a powerful tool that could be used to keep people in line, like "God sees you and knows what's on your mind, so think pure thoughts... Oh yeah and give lots of money to the church."

The Church became a powerful law-enforcement agency. And we all know that power corrupts.

To quote Lennon:
"Imagine Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell
below us, Above us only sky..."

Or to quote Robert Shea:
"There is only one god and it is the sun god. Ra Ra Ra!"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

45. Most religious people do not become crazed fundamentalists.

Then again, not all unprotected promiscuous sex results in unwanted pregnancies or STDs, which does not mean unprotected promiscuous sex is OK.