A new Prez Preferece poll

[Pepperbelly]

Dean has been the undisputed champ on DU with some significant support for most of the other candidates as well. However, it has been a while since we checked out the pulse so please indulge me with your current choice. I am including Clark in this now even though he has not announced because I am the thread author and a supporter ... :D

I could not include undecided. Candidates have been alphabetized within my limited abilities. If I miss anyone, please let me know so I can edit...

[goobergunch]

1. Dean

and let's keep this kicked!

[rfranklin]

2. Why isn't George W. Bush in that list?

I demand a recount!

[wuushew]

3. Good question

Clark is not yet offically running as a Democrat and Lieberman is a Republican so in the interest of fairness all the canidates should be listed.

[Pepperbelly]

4. only 10 spots and ...

as I explained, I used my priviledge as the thread originator to include my candidate. :D

[joeybee12]

6. Surprised there aren't more Kerry votes

But I voted for Dean.

[CMT]

105. because some of them may be voting for Clark

because they are so fanatical about wanting to see Dean lose this poll. See #11.

[Kahuna]

116. If they're that "fanatical" they may also vote for Clark when it counts..

in the primaries.

[are_we_united_yet]

55. How about a recall?

That would be much better

[CO Liberal]

237. His Picture is Above The List

[Pepperbelly]

5. kick for more votes!

:kick:

[PurityOfEssence]

7. Someone please explain this Clark mania

He comes across as bewildered and indecisive.

Is it really true love for this man or just timidity that without a certified warrior, we're lost? Okay, that sounds snotty, but I just don't get this one except in terms of misperceived electability.

[tjdee]

8. Indecisive or very wise?

He doesn't particularly waffle on the question of whether he is running, he says he hasn't decided yet.

I think this is because he hopes to appear "above poitics" so that people hear "Wesley Clark, independent former SACEUR" and not "Wesley Clark, partison Democrat".

Also, by "not deciding", he gives himself a hot media buzz.

Personally, I just want to hear what he has to say. I want to see if he's a populist, or...just *what* he is. I like him very much, but I too am kind of ....puzzled?? ...when people are already behind him without the specifics. But, it all comes down to who you like--personally, politically, etc. That's really what it comes down to. Even as a supporter of someone else, I am very comfortable with a Clark entry. I like him.

[never cry wolf]

27. this was exactly shrub's strategy

in both his first run for guv and prez. sit back and not announce, let the media give ya free coverage and not have to answer any pointed questions. (just finished reading the fortunate son.)

[PurityOfEssence]

120. well, "above politics" is an odd place for a Presidential hopeful to be

I made my little query/annoyance and toddled off to do some work and take a nap. Somehow I was expecting some coordinated response.

Truly, I'd like some shining knight (or knightette) on a charger to save us all, but I don't get this one.

To be "above the fray" is a form of elitism, whereas successful pluralist politics is to be willingly and vigorously "in the melee".

Hell, the Deanies bug me with their almost religious zeal--and they often offend me with their righteous attacks on opponents--but at least their guy's out there making his case. He's proven he'd make a good President, even though he's still not my first choice.

This just sounds like some wishful thinking. It sounds like fickle infatuation mixed with fear of the big paper tiger.

[Gabriele-d]

133. "Indecisive or very wise?"

"when people are already behind him without the specifics"...

Specifics on his positions are posted at http://www.draftwesleyclark.com/ and the plephora of links to other sites that list his positions clearly and credibly. I'm behind him, and every day more so AFTER looking carefully at his positions for the last four months. As he is not officially running yet, and he's a hero in Europe, Morocco and Canada, many citizens here do not know very much about him - but the information is there. It just takes looking for it. This will soon change. This morning on Wolf Blitzer he surely articulated a number of positions clearly and difinitively. More's to come.

Gabriele

[Kahuna]

20. Aaaaah, the old 'bewildered and indecisive' refrain..

Can't get enough of it. </sarcasm>

Apparently it isn't working. So why don't you give it up?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. "Bewildered and Indecisive"

Sounds like talking points....


I wonder from the bowels of which campaign that came from

[Eloriel]

88. I think we've been invaded

frankly. I find it downright frightening that an undeclared retired general of uncertain political persuasion carries that many votes in this forum. I've noticed that some of his supporters are pretty aggressive too.

Like I said, I think we've been invaded.

Eloriel

[Kahuna]

93. Would you like some cheese to go with that whine...

:D

[Pepperbelly]

103. 'scuse me but ...

I think I have been here pretty much from the start.

[Art_from_Ark]

216. So why didn't Clark run for governor of Arkansas?

There was, I heard, a draft Clark movement in Arkansas last year. Surely he could have kicked the pants off of Governor Triplewide. Or did Clark already have bigger dreams at that time? I am a little confused.

[Kahuna]

111. Where are all the Dean people, Eloriel? Who's keeping them away?..

traditionally, Dean would have hundreds of votes by now. Where are they? What do Clark people have to do with whether or not Dean supports vote in this poll?

[ibegurpard]

131. Indeed

:eyes:

[Tinoire]

211. Yes we have. And it's pretty obvious.

Unlike the Dean supporters, it seems the majority of the Clark supporters all showed up suddenly and en-masse. "Crank It Up" Clark said and "crank it up" they did.

You and I have often disagreed, and will continue to disagree, over Dean but there IS something downright unsettling about the Clark invasion. It's almost as if our board has been hijacked to catapult him to that victory. I don't buy it.

The man has still not said what he's running as- Dem, Rep, or Ind- but the supporters are all over the internet boards trying to convince all 3 parties that Clark is their man. There's something too orchestrated about this- it smells of a military manouver.

[tameszu]

218. It's called a critical mass

Were we revved up by the "crank it up" rumor? You bet.

But do any sensible people suggest that's anything terribly shadowy about Dean's supporters running around DU all out of proportion to their national support? I don't believe there's anything suspicious going on--unless you count being smart enough to seize the Internet Machiavellian!

Clark supporters are merely putting to use the "best Internet practices" we've seen Dean use. That's why many of us have the utmost support for the good doctor--even more than Dean, the Clark effort is almost completely concentrated on the Internet right now.

So please, Tinoire, no tinfoil hats! I think you've seen me post for several weeks now, and I assure you I have no special marching orders from the left or the right...as for GOP and (I) boards, I don't visit them, but I haven't met any Clarky who seriously believes that Clark will run as anything other than a Dem--everything both he and his close family members have said have indicated that if he runs, he runs as a Dem.

[Tinoire]

231. No... I don't count that as Machiavellic

It's very smart but as a long-time DU poster who's been in the trenches discussing issues for over 3 years- some of which had to to with Clark- I do feel personal resentment about seeing a progressive board that's very special to me be 'hijacked' like this.

It's a personal thing directed at Clark HQs, not at the Clark posters most of which are simply doing what all candidate supporters do but could you guys tone it down a little?

[tameszu]

242. I've been working on it

"could you guys tone it down a little?"

I hope that my posts have demonstrated that I've been trying to negotiate a mode of discourse with the other Clarkies--almost completely in public--that would channel our enthusiasm so that it has a lighter touch.

But I've noticed that DU (and maybe 'Net boards in general?) is not the sort of place that makes it easy to be subdued, non-confrontational, and moderate.

I should also add that that from I've seen of the Clark HQs, they've been very well behaved. None of them are insulting to other candidates and they in fact have much respect for Dean's campaign, since they're emulating his model. I can't think of where the HQs have gone over the line, personlly--well, except maybe for the ads, which I think are a little bit over the top, but I assumed that that wasn't for me.

[Tinoire]

255. You seem like good people Tameszu

I don't recall any of your posts ever being obnoxious or adversarial.

Please check your in-box for a further comment.

[Gabriele-d]

126. "Someone please explain this Clark mania"

May I ask how you arrived at the "bewildered and undecisive" opinion.
I have been following him for 4 months now, and the last thing I would attribute to him are those two terms.

Did you see him on Wolf Blitzer this morning?

Gabriele

[Nederland]

204. Explanation

Clark receive lots of votes for the same reason that (currently) George Bush loses to an "unnamed Democrat" but wins against any specific Democrat in the field today. The reason is simple: when people don't know specifics on a candidate, they tend to project their own believes onto that person. Clark, like the "unnamed Democrat", benefits from not having explained his position on almost anything. As a result, people tend to project their own positions on him and he does well. The more he defines himself, however, the lower his numbers will go...

[TheBigGuy]

9. Jesus H Christ...Clark is that high?

here at DU?

Man that is not what I would expect!

[tjdee]

10. Well.....it *is* Sunday.... n/t

[Kahuna]

21. Imagine how high it will be, AFTER, he commits...

}(

[Nederland]

206. It will go down

The more people learn, the lower it will go. That's how it always works. See my post #204

[quinnox]

11. Although a Kerry person, I voted

for Clark, only because it was closer than I've seen in awhile in any poll with Dean (usually, he is way out front with all the Deanies voting), and I truly do like Clark over Dean.

On edit: Sometimes I wonder if the Dean folks email or notify each other every time they see a poll, in order to "Dean" it, that is how fanatical some are.

[CMT]

101. interesting

I wonder how many people are doing what you did. You must really dislike Dean if you want him to lose a DU poll so badly. I would question who is the fanatical one-the "Deanies" as you call them or someone like you who would vote for someone other than your preferred candidate in a meaningless poll just to rub the noses of Dean supporters?

[quinnox]

114. But those aren't my motivations...

Interesting that you perceived them this way however.

[VoteClark]

141. They do that.

"Sometimes I wonder if the Dean folks email or notify each other every time they see a poll, in order to "Dean" it, that is how fanatical some are."

They do. I use to Support Dean before Kerry and Clark. I liked Dean's platform, didn't like Dean and his supporters. So I thought Kerry was next best, but then I heard about Clark. They email you and say, "Hey, vote in this poll! at www.somesite.com."

Did it all the time.

:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

199. Interesting

I haven't yet recieved a message from another Dean supporter asking me to vote in a poll and I have been here since March. Now, why would a Dean supporter send a message to someone with a username "VoteClark". What you are saying is BS.

[VermontDem2004]

196. Interesting

I just woke up... I seen over 190 posts and over 200 people who voted in this poll. What is more interesting is I haven't yet recieved a letter in my inbox. Dean...'04

[Atlant]

201. Apparently, I'm not on the alleged double-secret mailing list either.

> What is more interesting is I haven't yet recieved a letter in my inbox.

Apparently, I'm not on the alleged double-secret mailing list either.

I wonder who is?

I wonder if I should be feeling left out?

Nahhh, I think I'll just feel as if the previous poster was blowing
smoke with their allegation.

Atlant

[bluestateguy]

12. I'm kicking this for you

I did a poll that generated 315 votes. You should try to get at least that many votes here, so as to reduce the margin of error.

[goobergunch]

18. Gephardt doesn't have any votes yet...

and Graham's only got one. This poll isn't valid yet.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. Why couldn't you include undecided?

[tjdee]

14. Can only input 10 choices in the poll? n/t

[Pepperbelly]

15. it only allows 10 choices .,..

:hi:

[bluestateguy]

16. Clark

Looks like CLark is drawing most of his support from Kerry, who placed third in the poll I ran last month.

[Proletariat]

17. Clark takes the lead!

boo yah

[Bushknew]

19. Still learning about Clark

I'll vote for Clark if heÕs not a recently converted progressive Democrat.

So, I didnÕt vote in the poll.

[newsguyatl]

22. i'm getting

quite a kick out of you guys creamin' your pants over wesley...


entertaining indeed...

[Proletariat]

23. I'm getting a kick over the Dean hoopla. It sort of started the same way.

Clark's mo is starting at the right time.

[Kahuna]

24. Now..now..Don't poke fun...

That's my job! boo yah! }(

[Pepperbelly]

25. wwe aim to please ...

:D

[shirlden]

26. Here is the kicker

n/t :kick:

[quinnox]

28. Clark is winning

LOL, I can't believe this, this is the first time I have ever seen Dean lose a poll on DU! (except for the charisma poll- comparing Dean to Clinton, which he had slim to none chance anyway, even Dean folks saw the truth on that one)

[TheBigGuy]

31. yeah..that charisma poll was mine....and im shocked too..

:wtf: is up? Is this poll being freeped somehow? Seriously....I dont believe it...given the history of past candidate pref. polls here at DU.

[tameszu]

36. Nah, it's just that Clark had a really good press appearance today

on CNN's Late Edition.

Really laid into Tom DeLay--that will warm any DUer's heart!

[_NorCal_D_]

220. Yes,

I wish I could find that transcript. It really proved that Clark is not a Republican.

[TacticalPeek]

254. Smack... Lick... That smoked bugman was the first red meat for me since...

Lloyd Bensen's slice o' quayle flambe?

[Pepperbelly]

29. i love votes! a kick for more of them!

:kick:

[bluestateguy]

30. These are very surprsing results

It may reveal that the Left will accept Clark.

[TheBigGuy]

32. I think its being freeped somehow.

:shrug:

[goobergunch]

I concur.

There are a lot more Gephardt, Graham, and Kucinich supporters out there than shown in this poll.

[Proletariat]

38. Perhaps they've switched candidates?

Is that possible?

[eleny]

50. I switched

I'm one of the folks who has switched from Dean to Clark in the last few days. And if I hadn't made up my mind then, Clark's appearance on Blitzer today would have done it. The way he quietly b*tch-slapped Tom DeLay told me he could take on Rove et al in a presidential race. Clark didn't even break a sweat.

I supported Dean with my contributions and will definitely contribute to the Clark campaign the very day he jumps into the race. I've already pledged and also contributed to the ad.

I simply won't take the risk with Dean although I admire him greatly. We need someone who has broad appeal. Clark is the one who can accomplish this.

Eleny

[Eloriel]

178. This is an example of what I see happening here --

And I want to emphasize EXAMPLE because I'm not trying to single you out, Eleny, 'kay

Not many posts. "I used to be a Dean supporter." "Dean doesn't have broad appeal" -- which is simply laughable as I think most Dean supporters know.

Whether THIS post is or is not one of the "invaders" I said I thought DU had attracted on behalf of Clark or not, I can't know. But it fits the casual profile I've been observing over a few weeks now.

(Ooo, Larry King re-broadcast just now: Gov. Ann Richardson just saying if Clark was going to get in, he needed to have already gotten in. That's what Clint Black said on one of the news channels said the other day too. Crossfire maybe?)

BTW, as Dean supporters KNOW, Dean supporters run the gamut -- AND, he was the only candidate to show up in person to address the 43,000-member strong Young Democrats of America this weekend (I need a link for the students, esp. with school about to start up again.):

BRAND New Democrats for Dean
http://brandnewdemocrats.blogspot.com

Independents for Dean
http://deanindependents.org/

Republicans for Dean
http://republicansfordean.blogspot.com/

African Americans for Dean (new)
http://www.africanamericansfordean.com/AA/
40th Anniversary of March on Washington, Aug. 28
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000991.html

Americans with Disabilities for Dean
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=community_americanswithdisabilities

Doctors for Dean
http://www.doctorsfordean.org/

Official Website
http://www.deanforamerica.com

Official Blog
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/

And that's just for starters. Dean has such incredibly broad support it's -- well, as Ann Richards put it, "a phenomenon."

Eloriel

[Kahuna]

39. I think that Clark is pulling the support from everyone else..

as we predicted. :7

[Proletariat]

41. Clark has a broad appeal

He has the ability to appeal to all sorts of people.

[goobergunch]

42. When I donate next week...

I am going to repost this without Clark just to see what happens.

[Proletariat]

44. It will even back out again.

Watch.

It's Clark's ability to draw from numbers of groups that has him ahead here. We happen to think he can do this nationally as well.

[TheBigGuy]

54. no----repost it this way..

Show Clark, Undecided, and drop Mosley Braun (as she usually doesnt get any votes, or very few).

So you would see maybe a fairer picture of Clarks strength.

[Kahuna]

65. If Clark runs, and it appears that he will, wouldn't you want to know..

what the poll is with ALL the candidates? :o
Your point seems to be Dean wins without Clark. We don't need a poll to tell us that.

[wherewingstakedream]

49. Hammer meets

Nail! :bounce:

[Pepperbelly]

40. when it doesn't cut the way you think it should,

someone is cheating?

Please. Show a little dignity.

[TheBigGuy]

51. no..seriously....

..this is really unusual for a poll to be so out-of-whack compared to other polls on the same subject that have been posted here.

Altho, to be fair, Clark was never a choice, and they also had undecided as a choice.

Maybe if we run a poll and add "undecided" (& drop Mosley Braun), we might see different results.

[Kahuna]

58. Things change. A poll is only a snapshot of sentiment at

one moment in history. Things happen, people change their minds and polls change to reflect the evolution of thought.

[salin]

228. While I would like to think there are evolutions of thoughts

when it comes to political thinking? Sometimes seems more like fad of the day, whimsey of the week, or random mood of the month. :shrug:

[Pepperbelly]

59. i think that the handwriting is very evident...

Clark has much strength among this community.

I am astounded by the extent of it but I did expect that he would come in a strong second behind Dean. For me, the results differ only slightly in degree.

BTW, why eliminate Braun when Gep and she are tied?

[TheBigGuy]

66. shes tied w. more that Gep..

...but, realistically, she would be the first to drop out in the primaries. I dont think Gep would.

Also, since u have a limited number of choices I would like to see undecided as thats where Im at...I really cant vote in yr poll as it stands (although is sure is worth commenting on!)

[Pepperbelly]

68. one thing that I think is clear ...

Wesley would draw a lot of the oxygen from the other candidates. It might even reduce to a 2 or 3 candidate field.

[Kahuna]

70. Absolutely!

Yee haw!!!!!!! :bounce:

[eleny]

60. No surprise....

... since Clark was interviewed on Wolf Blizter's news program, earlier. And he's making news with how he handled Tom DeLay's negative comments about him. Clark is today's news.

Eleny

[wellstone_democrat]

124. snapshot AND.. for people like me

who are as yet uncommitted to a primary candidate, when given a list, I go with who out of that group appeals to me as a Democratic voter. Clark has been of interest for a while and today's performance on CNN gave him front-runner status with me for the moment. Will I "go to the dance" with Clark? Remains to be seen---I'd like him to committ to running first---but right now, he edges out my traditional poll vote (Dean) for today's nod. Mainly because he got a bit closer to looking as if he will run and for giving DeLay a well deserved beating in 2 seconds without a change in respiration or pulse rate (I'll bet at any rate...). That tells me that these devils hold no horror for him.

[bluestateguy]

77. I voted for Clark

But Dean would be my second choice. I voted for him in the last poll.

[newsguyatl]

33. also

testament to dean's strength that he's standing up against virtually every candidate on there (seeing as how it's painfully obvious that all dean haters are voting for clark whether they support him or not, just so dean can lose this cheesy poll)... i mean, c'mon, so NO ONE else is voting for ANY of the other candidates? yeah right... you guys are so lame

[Proletariat]

34. riiiiiight

:eyes:

[Pepperbelly]

35. sounds like ratioalizations to me .l.. nt

[Kahuna]

43. LOL! That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

Thanks! I needed that laugh.

[tjdee]

45. How is it painfully obvious?

If I was on your mind trip, what would be the signposts, LOL?

More people voted than posted replies, so I can't see it that way...

It's a Sunday, there are less people here...

So how exactly is it "painfully obvious" that your theory is correct?

(I voted for Edwards, btw, as usual)

[chimpymustgo]

52. Me too, tjdee. Still hanging with Edwards.

But I'm liking Clark at lot. And I like Kerry.

[PurityOfEssence]

190. Same here

It's an interesting dynamic how some of the strident "take no prisoners" Clark-barkers are displaying much the same approach as the more aggressive Deaniewienies, isn't it?

Now that Clark is starting to actually state positions, I'll certainly give him a look-see, but there are some annoying dynamics to the appeal from the first few glances.

One can point out "weaknesses" or "peeves" with "your guy" and not be trying to get others to laugh at your inferior genitals in public; it shouldn't be so damned PERSONAL. It SHOULD be about finding the best person. Lots of this smacks of religion and sports: blind affiliation that can escalate into raging personal vengeance for all the slights and indignities one has ever suffered when the least whiff of criticism of "your team" is detected...

Yeeks!

[deutsey]

48. Well, of course, this is such a scientifically based poll

and DU is such an accurate microcosm of the US voting population in general, how could you even attempt to dispute the findings here?

And besides, everyone knows polls are accurate. Why, I recall a certain Republican fella from Texas running for president (back when we thought we lived in a democracy and all) and he was leading the polls right up to Election Day. Polls were saying he'd win the popular vote, while his opponent would possibly get the electoral.

Oh. Wait a minute...bad example...

[eleny]

37. Hey! It won't let me vote!

I tried to cast my vote but got a page that said I had already voted. Not so. I only tried the one time. What admin do I need to contact to straighten this out?

Anyhow, I was voting for Clark.

Eleny

[Kahuna]

56. Could be because you're a newbie.. You need a certain amount

of posts before you're given certain priviledges. Get your posts count up and come back. :D

[eleny]

61. Thanks Kahuna..

.... I'll try again tomorrow.

Eleny

[goobergunch]

203. I posted in Ask the Admins and you shouldn't be having problems...

Skinner said that everybody can vote in DU polls.

[chaska]

46. What the P-H-U-K!!!

Wow! That's amazing! Clark ahead of Dean - am I dreaming?

[goobergunch]

47. Let's review:

Poll result (145 votes)
Braun (1 votes, 1%) Vote
Clark (59 votes, 41%) Vote
Dean (56 votes, 39%) Vote
Edwards (4 votes, 3%) Vote
Gephardt (0 votes, 0%) Vote
Graham (2 votes, 1%) Vote
Kerry (9 votes, 6%) Vote
Kucinich (11 votes, 8%) Vote
Lieberman (1 votes, 1%) Vote
Sharpton (2 votes, 1%) Vote

There are a lot more than 145 DUers. This poll will even out tomorrow and the next day. Anybody have a link to Skinner's or bluestateguy's poll?

[Yogi]

53. The more I read about...

Kucinich the more I like him. Thats who I voted for.

[MaverickX]

57. I'm leaning towards Gephardt now

Because of his opposition to free trade, free immigration, and right to work laws. Plus he has loads of experience and way more of a chance than Kucinich. Those two have alot of similar views, except on Iraq.

[newsguyatl]

62. ok fess up

what lame ass voted for LIEberman?

[Proletariat]

63. LOL!

[eleny]

64. Ha-ha-ha-ha!

L-man puts me to s-s-s-l-e-e-p-zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Proletariat]

67. The DeanieBoppers are throwing a FIT!

They cannot stand that someone else could be as popular (or more so) than their beloved Dean :)

[chaska]

73. Let's be realistic, though.

Dean will win this poll. There are just a lot more of them right now. I imagine there are people calling in the troops as we speak.

I feel kind of bad for what is about to happen though. When Clark enters the race all the negative energy that has been aimed at Bush will be pointed at Clark. Oh well, it's part of the process, I guess. Hate that we have to go through that.

No offense, Deanites. It's inevitable, is all I'm saying.

[eleny]

80. Negativity towards Clark by the Repukes ...

... may be viewed as negativity towards the military in some circles. I love dilemas like that. Hmmm... almost as good as what Rove is capable of cooking up. Maybe turn around is fair play after all.

Eleny

[Proletariat]

81. At the end of a Clark presidency,

The Military could become a huge voting block for us, thus changing the dynamics of our party :toast:

[TacticalPeek]

247. A possible un(purely)Southern strategy...hmmmm. n/t

[tameszu]

112. There's a lot in life that's not inevitable!

And I think the race degenerating into nastiness is one of them.

I doubt Clark will be quick in using negative attacks--his scthick, after all, is above-the-fray.

And I find it hard to see on what basis Dean will be able to go negative on Clark, since many of their broad positions are quite similar. It will have to be on the details or on personality, and I don't think Dean wins by attacking Clark on the latter, and it's the latter than will be big. Basically if they're smart, both Clark and Dean will realize that they will have to win the race by inspiring, and it's hard to do that by going negative in a primary.

[Bertrand]

257. The Poll

only represents people that participated in it, not the primary and not even the general consensus of DU members.


I voted Clark.

[deutsey]

75. Yawn.

It doesn't matter to me. I'm working for Dean, and I'm working damn hard for him, too, volunteering to give up my spare time to organize events, etc. With three kids, a fulltime job, etc., I don't have a lot of spare time to spare, either. But if it turns out that Clark gets the nomination, I'll of course be disappointed that Dean didn't, but I'll have no problem voting for Clark.

I just want a strong Dem who is going to beat Bush. Period. That's why I'm not into bashing Clark, Kerry, Kucinich, etc. I believe in my heart that Dean is that Dem. Unfortunately for me, my heart isn't what determines what the larger reality is for this country. So if Dean doesn't get the nomination, I'll know I worked my ass off for him, while harboring no ill will at alltoward the other candidates (well, maybe a little toward Lieberman...I am only human, after all), and I will be ready to work for whomever gets nominated.

I hope, for all of our sakes, the rest of you can say the same.

[Proletariat]

76. Props to you

We're all in this together!

[deutsey]

79. Amen.

I mean it, too.

Clark seems like a fine candidate. So does Kerry. So does Kucinich. So do all of them (Lieberman...we-e-e-ell...shoot, even him.)

My conscience says go for Dean, that's all. I'll have no problem supporting your guy if he wins. None at all. :hi:

[Pepperbelly]

78. damned right ....

I will support wholeheartedley the nominee of the Democratic Party.

1000% :evilgrin:

[TacticalPeek]

248. Amen...why bash anybody but that chump aWol? n/t

[eleny]

82. "I hope, for all of our sakes, the rest of you can say the same"

I agree with your sentiments completely. I won't bash the other Dem candidates while I work for Clark, should he declare. Your working for Dean helps him put out a good and important message. As contrasted with the latest Rep candidate, Arnold, who is giving the Rep's some locker room wedgies these days.

[tameszu]

115. Well, the other Republicans deserve it!

"the latest Rep candidate, Arnold, who is giving the Rep's some locker room wedgies these days."

Heh. Nice imagery.

If I were living in California, I'd almost vote for Ah-nuld...I mean, half his campaign team is made up of Democrats anyway! (Warren Buffet, Rob Lowe, Maria and the Kennedy clan...)

[tameszu]

113. Aww play nice

Clark will need the enthusiasm of those Deanieboppers if he wins the primary.

(And before the Deanies lay into me for this, I submit that the reverse is also true--which is why, no matter what happens, 'Net progressives should unite to defeat Bush in '04!!! It's way more important than just one person)

[NewJerseyDem]

69. Results are surprising

I would think that Kerry and Kucinich would be doing better. I am also suprised by how well Clark is doing. So far I am shocked by the results. I won't be convinced of the extent of Clark's support until I see another poll with similar results on DU.

[TheBigGuy]

71. I agree...a similar poll needs to be re-run later this week.,

I want to see two samples to compare...this is a one-shot and may be skewed by Clark being on CNN (where I understand he made a good showing).

[Kahuna]

74. Agreed. There should always be more than one poll to verify..

consistancy.

[bluestateguy]

72. As Dan Rather would say on election night...

"We have a ding dong battle here. Put on a pot of hot coffee. It's gonna be a long night."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

207. "More shocking than a Texas prison."

[quinnox]

83. Before this gets Deaned: Official- Clark 76, Dean 74

I sense a call has gone out to the Dean troops, like an above poster commented.

[Egnever]

95. Rofl!

You folks are goofy.

Dean and clark are tied in this poll for all intents and purposes it has been the trend since it went up.

I am one deanie here to tell you this doesnt bother me even in the least.

I think what this poll points out more than anything is that clark entering the race doesnt really affect Dean so much as it kills the rest of em.

without clark it was a kerry dean race. Put clark in and it becomes a clark Dean race while shoving kerry out of the running.

I personally like what I have heard from clark so far Ill take either one of them hapily!

I think your posts shows your rabid anti dean fanaticism though quite well.

[quinnox]

104. I refer you to post #67

for my response.

[Egnever]

110. And i refer you to post #101

for mine

Goofball!

[Kahuna]

109. How about this scenario to instill fear in your heart?..

Who will be the recipient of the supporters as the candidates begin to drop out?

[Egnever]

144. No fear here

From what I have seen of him so far hes a perfectly acceptable candidate. My only problem with clark at this point is the fact that he hasnt declared and im not getting enough info directly from him instead of what people want to say about him.

Other than that from what I have seen of him so far in the few interviews i have seen him in He sounds like someone I would be happy to vote for over bush. Not just hapy enthusiastic. I feel the same way about Dean. I will take either one.

Till clark actually gets in the race suporting him isnt even an option though. When he does I will take a harder look at him. However right now Dean is in the race and running it very well. He does excite me I do think he will beat bush easily. So he gets my support.

I hope he does get in the race so we can get yet one more voice on the national stage calling these neocon fucks what they are. Right now the ones i see doing this are Dean Sharpton Kucinich and Brown, With a few stingers thrown in to the mix by graham once in a while.

I Think Al nailed it in the recent debates when he said this donkey needs to be smacked!

[Kahuna]

84. Time for another kick.

:kick:

[bicentennial_baby]

85. To all in the Clark Yahoo group

While I am a member of both DU and the Yahoo group, I was'nt pleased to see a "FReep this poll" post over there about this poll on DU. So, to anyone that's suspicious of the results, that may be one of the factors.

:puke:

[Pepperbelly]

87. |I truly hate hearing that ...

damn...

:grr:

[Kahuna]

100. The poll isn't "freeped." There are people who like Bicentennial...

are members on both forums. An alert was simply put out to let DUers on the Clark site know about the poll. Period. It is my understanding that DU polls cannot be "freeped."
:puke:

[ibegurpard]

89. See my post below.

And everyone was so worried about this "poll" being "Deaned."
:eyes:

[quinnox]

91. Yea, only Dean supporters should manipulate polls

Uh-huh.

[Kahuna]

97. You can only vote once. So the poll can't be "freeped." Clark...

supporters only brought attention to the Clark group, the same way I'm sure the Dean people did. Nothing wrong with that.

[TennesseeWalker]

128. Well, the discussion isn't about how good Clark is or Dean is.

It's just about how this poll may have been FReeped.

[Kahuna]

162. Who said it was?

:eyes:

[Eloriel]

179. Thank you very much for being honest about this

Too bad.

Eloriel

[ibegurpard]

86. Let's also point out

That there has been a very large influx of DU "newbies" who have been trying to stir up fervor for Clark. I don't object to that...that's obviously a good way to try to get some name recognition for a candidate. My BIG problem with Clark is this playing coy stuff...supposedly he's not connected to the draft? And yet he tells his supporters to ramp it up? Why won't he say he's a Democrat? And what's he waiting for to run?
There's been a big push to try to work the internet for Clark and there HAS been a large influx of people to DU who seem to be here solely for that purpose. Again, not necessarily anything WRONG with that but I think it helps explain the "poll" results.

[Pepperbelly]

90. i noticed the same thing when Dean's www ramped up ...

:D

And that might explain Dean's poll results, eh?

[ibegurpard]

94. Could be

I have no idea. I came onto the site and saw the poll and was quite amazed at the result and then voted. If there is some organized effort by Dean supporters to try to sway an inconsequential DU poll then I'm not aware of it.

[CMT]

98. well looks like Clark is gaining some support on DU

interesting poll. Hopefully the site will do an official poll soon. Right now if this poll is accurate and with only about 200 people participating (probably the more active people on DU) it looks like a fight between Dean and Clark for the nomination--the primary of DU.

[Eloriel]

180. Actually, Pepperbelly, no

What happened was a lot of regular older members started supporting Dean. That's exactly opposite of what happened re Clark. Ibegurpard has it right on the Clark issue. Yeah, some older members are obviously going for him too (like you), just as some new people came in to DU as supporters, but the percentages of old-timers to relative newbies are about exactly opposite.

Eloriel

[joshan361]

92. sounds like sour grapes to me!

[ibegurpard]

96. And your total of 1 posts adds some credence to my theory.

n/t

[joshan361]

102. well i am new here

life long Dem here and i will vote for who i want. much like you have im sure.

[Kahuna]

108. The point is, where are the hundreds of Dean votes???

They can claim that the Clark vote is "freeped" but once upon a time, Dean would be in the hundreds by now. And he isn't. So somebody explain that. Why isn't Dean in the hundreds like he used to be?

[ibegurpard]

118. Probably because, contrary to some assertions on this thread

there hasn't been an organized call to Dean "supporters" to come to DU to stack some unofficial member poll...unlike the call at the Yahoo group for Clark pointed out above.

[Proletariat]

119. DU = Dean Group

[ibegurpard]

135. Well, you certainly told me!

:P

[jumptheshadow]

236. Hey!

What about the newbies who joined DU because we are determined to put a progressive candidate in the White House and we wanted to hang out with other folks who feel as we do? Perhaps along the way we decided to back Clark. (I, for one, believe he offers Dems some wonderful opportunities in the swing states.) But we will be out there working our tail off for whomever the party nominates. I'm a Bills fan, but if the Pats make it to the Superbowl, then I'm backing the AFC team all the way.

[Starpass]

99. I hope Kerry's team is reading

I was 100% for Kerry because we point blank need to fill the "soft on defense" spot that they have smeared onto the Dems (and that is where Bush and media whores will concentrate election '04). But Kerry is sitting around picking his butt and I'm now thinking he won't make it out of the primaries. Whomever is handling him is doing a totally shitty job. Thus, now I feel our only hope is Clark and voted accordingly. In '72 a very political country hated the Nam war and still flushed McGovern big, big time. These bastards are not going to love someone who didn't support their glorious war EVEN if they now don't like it any more. And to match, and then do one above Bush, we need someone with a service record. Otherwise, it's just a standoff pissing contest with glorious George and his "patriotic" images winning the day. I think more and more people are beginning to realize that.

[Proletariat]

106. "picking his butt"

BWHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHA

[bluestateguy]

117. Kick

:kick:

VOTE

The more votes, the more legitimate the poll is.

[silverweb]

121. Dean, all the way.

[TSIAS]

122. Dean (n/t)

[TakebackAmerica]

127. Clark

Clark is in no way related to the draft clark movement.

Why would you create a group to draft yourself?
:wtf:

And he said "Crank it up" to a friend, not the Draft clark people.

Though I may only have "13" posts I've watched this group since August last year.
:mad:

Might I add before Clark, I was a passionate Deanie.

Clark/Dean 04
United for Clark
The ticket that will unite America.

[Proletariat]

123. Neck and neck!

[GOPBasher]

125. I changed from Kerry to Clark

I think Clark gives us the best chance of winning.

[AmeriCanadian]

129. I don't believe it should be a popularity contest

I don't care about a man's height or complexion, I care about how he will represent my interests in running our country.

BTW, Hello all!

[VoteClark]

139. You are a good man

I moved from Kerry to Clark too. But that was about one and 1/2 months ago. Kerry I like a lot. Clark I love.

:kick:
J4Clark

[gyopsy]

130. Dean here...

and proud of it. He's our next president.

[newsguyatl]

132. wow

you guys sure are quiet now that dean has taken the lead...


or is it that all those creamin orgasms you were having over clark make you sleeeeeepy

[Kahuna]

136. Clark supporters can be very gratified with the results of this poll...

For an as yet unannounced candidate, it appears that support for all of the candidates, including Dean would erode if Clark enters the race. There was a time on DU, that Dean would have hundreds of votes by now and Kucinich would be in second place with sizeable votes. Clark has come a long way in a short time. :7

[CMT]

140. actually Dean's numbers right now

are about the same as he had in the official DU poll, so he is not showing much defection. He has over 40% and in the official DU poll he had 43%. It is Kerry who has been hurt the most, but then some Kerry supporters are voting for Clark in this poll just to show up Dean.

[Kahuna]

142. Nice revisionism, CMT..

[tameszu]

137. Yep, I'm happily in my refractory phase now

Ahhhh...spent and sweepy...

:boring:

Heh.

Dean rocks man...I am certainly looking forward to seeing how Clark does when he actually enters the race, though...

[w4rma]

134. "doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead…Dean is the only one who could hold his own"

I don't think Clark will hurt Dean, as much, because Dean supporters seem to be more loyal to their candidate than supporters of other Democratic candidates.

…
Under the Clinton scenario, Kerry would fall into the second tier of Democratic hopefuls, favored by just 16 percent of voters. All the other Democratic candidates would be relegated to the single digits.

Dean’s support among independent- and reform-minded voters seems intact with or without Clinton in the race while Kerry would find his base of support among traditional Democratic voters threatened, according to Herald pollster R. Kelly Myers.

"If Hillary Clinton suddenly expressed some interest in the race, the biggest potential loser is Kerry," Myers told the Herald. "She doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead at all ... As of today, Dean is the only one who could hold his own (against Clinton)."
…
http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/July2003/July_28/News/reg_pol_0728a.asp
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=21886#22068

[Kahuna]

143. Hold his own?!? There are many posts by FORMER Dean supporters...

right here on DU. Some are on this thread. I like how you Deanies pretend not to see them. :eyes:

[Vap Noose]

148. Lokkie Here

I've not read a single wrong word toward Clark from those that favor Dean here, and by and large, across the net. On the other hand, I see a lot of Clark supporters getting in sideways digs to Dean. Unfortunately, this will continue, as those supporters from the other failed Dem candidates flock to Clark, and continue to attack Dean.

It doesn't matter, because I know this is either a Dean/Clark or CLark/Dean ticket. We are just trying to work out the logistics.

[Vap Noose]

149. And you could tell this was freeped by Clark supporters

It's tempting to send out the word to do the same for Dean, but I'll let it stand instead.

[Kahuna]

151. What did I say against Dean? There is not one post on this thread

that is against Dean. So, don't lecture me.

[w4rma]

155. I quoted from a NH pollster on what would happen if Sen. Clinton ran

Note, that was a state-wide scientific poll.

[Kahuna]

156. I'm only referring to this DU poll. Period. Which is only

indicative of the DU trend.

[w4rma]

157. I see a similar trend between the two polls (n/t)

[IndianaGreen]

138. Lieberman is being crushed 5-1 by Sharpton!

That says a lot about the affection we all have for Holy Joe.

[_NorCal_D_]

223. lol

Yes it does!


B-)

[bluestateguy]

145. Clark is the biggest threat not to Dean, but to the others in the field

Dean is still polling about where he was last time, but Clark reduces the other candidates to rubble. If Kucinich is demolished as a viable candidate I see most of his support going to Dean, while Edwards, Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt's support will go to Clark.

[Kahuna]

147. How can you ignore that there are FORMER Dean supporters right

here on DU. Maybe somebody should do a poll about that.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

150. Jesus shut up already

I went through this thread, and there are FOUR that switched from Dean to Clark. Get that, FOUR. Sheesh, it's nothing to go kazoo over, like you are. Out of 310 votes, FOUR. It's obvious, even without having looked through this thread, that it's Kerry who's been hurt on DU the most by Clark. You sound like a kid that just had their favorite toy taken away and can do nothing but throw a tantrum.

That being said, I read the transcripts of his spot on Blitzer, and he said some things I really liked. He has certainly raised my eyebrow, but I won't waste time trying to research him thoroughly until he announces he's running. I will keep an open mind.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

154. I looked at the numbers too

Hey, number of posts doesn't equal intelligence. It could just mean posting your point 3 times in the same thread to make sure you get the attention you crave. The numbers show that Dean's support is steady, while Kerry's fell dramatically. How do you explain that while still insinuating Dean people are flocking to Clark?

[Kahuna]

158. What the number of posts is indicatifve of...

Is that I'm more aware than you of what has been going on at DU. Period. You can't argue that.

And for all of those who claim that this poll is consistent with the others (even though if you note how many people said they were surprised by this poll), maybe they can post such poll.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

160. If you're so aware

Why are you ignoring the last poll, where Dean did equally as well as in this poll? Again, being around DU doesn't equal reading comprehension, information retention, or any degree of intelligence. Your awareness seems to be hindered by your desires for my candidate to not do well. Your number of posts plus the behavior I've observed of you in my short stint of being on DU (of 2 months) tells me something about you.

[Kahuna]

176. Put down whatever yer smokin.'

Nice tactic, trying to change the subject. :puke:

[VoteClark]

161. Means that Dean is done.

I mean, if the other strongest candidates support goes to Clark, Dean would lose. Even in a tie, Clark would get the superdelegates. I am not Sure most of Kucinich's support would go to Dean. I think many dislike Dean.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Kahuna]

146. Time for another kick.

:kick:

[plurality]

153. what the hell happened to all the Kucinich peeps?

Not to bag on Clark, but I find it hard to believe that he would be able to suck in Kucinich voters, just doesn't fit. So what's the deal, are all the Kucinich people asleep?

[Tinoire]

213. Naw--- but it takes us a while to navigate to threads like this

These poll results are a shocker but I ain't buying it. Dean yes, but Clark no. there's something very orchestrated about this sudden Clark support.

[tameszu]

217. Not really--yesterday was just a big day for Clarkies

because of his big Late Edition appearance. After he slammed DeLay, a whole bunch of Clark threads went up on DU, and there was way more chatter than usual on the Clark yahoo groups, where someone announced the poll.

Yes, there's people "orchestrating" things--if you mean that there's Clarkies like me actively pushing him--but nothing terribly suspicious. At least, I haven't gotten my Scaife money yet. ;)

[Tinoire]

219. I can buy that that gave him a surge

but this is much more than a surge Tameszu. If Clark is the man, I will wish him well but I still feel very unsettled about these orchestrations- especially at DU. Actively pushing a candidate is one thing- descending en mass on this web-site to use it as an advertising platform is another.

I have no problems with you personally and in fact have no problems with the majority of the Clark supporters here. What I have a problem with is the timing and the obvious orchestration coming from the campaign HQs.

From now on I will get involved in the Clark threads and speak my mind about how I, as a vet who had friends under his command, feel about him. This may gain me enemies but I just don't care anymore.

[tameszu]

221. Hmmm

Let me clarify and note that I'm on the the lists and groups and there was no directive by the Clark "leadership" (such as it is--one of the current weaknesses about the draft campaign is that it hasn't yet put together a single coordinated leadership--it probably has about 4-5 different major groups who are now trying to "get it together") to come to DU and "take it over" as an advertising platform for their candidate.

Yesterday, though, there was a lot of excitement about Clark, especially on DU, where Clark's great performance on the Late Edition interview got a ton of attention and there were many Clarkies--both old and people who got converted by the interview--yes it happens; think about Dean's Meet the Press appearance. When the poll was put up (by a Clarkie), someone sent an email to one of the lists. That's all there was to it. No conspiracy. No organized attempt to take over DU, although a degree of activity by some recently mobilized people.

As for speaking out about Clark--that's fine. I'm sure there's many who served under him who have strong opinions both ways. I doubt there's many leaders--civilian or military--who don't have some people who worked for them who admired them and others who really resented or disliked them. And Clark's personality probably magnifies that. As I've said before, the virtues that make one friendly neighbour are often (but not always) in tension with the virtues that make you a great leader. Just please try to keep an open mind and remember that there are many perspectives.

[Tinoire]

233. I can accept the surge factor and can appreciate the excitement

Please know that I made the same comments to the Dean supporters a while back.

I must be getting grumpy for having been on this board too long.

Keep your excitement. It's swell. Glad you're not letting me dampen your enthusiasm since that's not my intent.

[tameszu]

244. No problem!

Enthusiasm is funny bug--infectious to some, irritating as all get out to people who don't get it/can't see it...

[DoveTurnedHawk]

253. "His" Command?

Tinoire, I thought you were a woman?

:crazy:

DTH

[tameszu]

258. She meant Clark's command

You can be a female vet too, remember! And some of them would definitely have senior officer friends...or are senior officers themselves, like that Air Force Lt-Col. who just recently blasted Bush.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

260. Oh!

From now on I will get involved in the Clark threads and speak my mind about how I, as a vet who had friends under his command, feel about him. This may gain me enemies but I just don't care anymore.

I thought "his" was referring back to "vet," not Clark. I get it now. Sorry, I thought I was going crazy for a moment.

And yes, I do know that women can be vets. :-)

DTH

[Magical]

159. Kick

:kick:

[TSIAS]

163. kick

:kick:

[bluestateguy]

164. kick

:kick:

[Northwind]

165. As of 10:35 Central Time

Braun (2 votes, 1%)

Clark (115 votes, 35%)

Dean (134 votes, 41%)

Edwards (6 votes, 2%)

Gephardt (4 votes, 1%)

Graham (5 votes, 2%)

Kerry (29 votes, 9%)

Kucinich (28 votes, 9%)

Lieberman (1 votes, 0%)

Sharpton (5 votes, 2%)

Now that the poll has been up for a while, we are seeing how Clark would really affect the race.

He pulls significant support from everyone but Dean. Some people have undoubtedly switched from Dean to Clark, but as noted earlier, Dean's numbers in this poll are essentially unchanged from other polls on DU, so Dean holds steady and is basically untouched by Clark. Clark officially entering the race (if he does) will be a non-event for Dean, but deadly to everyone else. Clark utterly eviscerated Kerry and Gephardt. I am surprised by his effect on Kucinich, but it could be that Kucinich supporters simply have not weighed in yet.

[bluestateguy]

166. It's all about the expectations game

Dean will likely win this poll in terms of raw votes, but the real winner in Wesley Clark. He is an undeclared candidate polling a very strong second, leaving the other candidates in the dust.

[Bread and Circus]

167. WOW !!!!

Clark is neck and neck. This is amazing.
I am so glad to see fellow DU'ers starting
to catch on to the Clark vibe.

This is just great.

I can't wait to see what will happen in a
month (assuming things go as I hope) !!!

Stay United, Defeat Bush.

[NewJerseyDem]

168. Wesley Clark

I wrote a long thing on why I have chosen him but I accidently deleted it so I will write it shorter this time.

I have bounced back between Dean, Kerry, Gephardt, Graham, and Edwards throught the year but I have now decided that Clark would be the best if he runs. Basically, I feel that he is the most electable of the candidates. His military background is a big plus and it would help democrats nationwide. He seems very articulate and his geography will appeal to southerners but he has northern roots will appeal to northerners as well. His domestic views are still too unclear. When asked his opinion on partial birth abortion when he was on Crossfire he said he didn't know. That is unacceptable. So, for now I support him, but this may change. I would like to hear more from him so I can make a definite choice.

[Eloriel]

183. He's got some skeletons in those

military footlockers. Don't imagine that his record is going to make him more electable.

Eloriel

[tameszu]

189. I respectfully submit that you may mistake the views of the average lefty

activist for those of the average middle American. Counterpunch and znet's accusations of Kosova war crimes (which Human Rights Watch dismissed, I should add) don't even play well among lefty academics, nevermind average American voters. And Bush will find it much harder to use the sniping quotes of anonymous military rivals and disaffected subordinates or associates against Clark than you would think--he will have to get those people to step out on their own and write opeds; quoting them second-hand or anonymously will make him look like a coward.

Unless Clark really has an utterly wretched reputation--and I mean significantly worse than your average senior officer who has made a variety friends as well as enemies along the way up the ladder--the average American will see the 4 stars and the purple heart, they'll hear him speaking in strategic terms which sound both comprehensible and professional, and it will give him a bigtime edge.

[tameszu]

169. To Clarkies and Deanies, calm down y'all!!!

Sigh, I was afraid this would happen.

OK, listen up, please don't start flaming one another. Assuming either Dean or Clark win the primary, I find it highly likely that as long as Dean and Clark keep their respective races clean, the one will have room for the other somewhere in his campaign and, if he wins the generals, his administration, due to the amount of innovative grassroots political support the one has provided the other.

Also look: BOTH Dean and Clark supporters should be damned thrilled about finishing first or second in ANY poll. 6 months ago, no one could have honestly suspected that either had this much support and or even name recognition.

As someone who supports BOTH Clark and Dean (although for the sake of disclosure, let me add that I currently lean strongly toward Clark, although this isn't due to anything negative I feel toward Dean), I think that the best way to support our candidates is to sell them by representing them civilly and graciously.

I do love you all though...and, yeah, I'm wondering where all the Kucinich people are, too? And the Kerry people. They couldn't have all turned into Clarkies!

[Bread and Circus]

170. tameszu....

great message, we gotta stay united and positive
no matter what.

Bush is the enemy and so are the radical
right wingers.

I am for peace and prosperity.

Stay United, Defeat Bush.

[tameszu]

177. Thanks!

I just hope people keep this in mind...

[Egnever]

171. Interesting question

Did kucinich soport really go down in this poll? Or is it near where it was last time?

Kerry certainly took a beating. But kucinich held steady no?

[NewJerseyDem]

174. I think that it went down

I don't have any numbers to back that up but I thought that Kucinich did better in past polls.

[diamondsoul]

172. This is just weird.

I can't help but suspect some freeping here. No offense to either Clark or Dean by that, it just is completely out of whack compared to other polls that have been run.

[wheresthemind]

173. I was thinking the same thing...

I think the poll is foxed

[poskonig]

175. Kerry is totally sucking!!

I hope the actual primary comes down this. Dean vs. Clark. No Bush suck-ups allowed.

[bluestateguy]

181. On Kucinich

In my poll, he won 19%. Why the fall off? Either they are not voting, or Dean is winning many of them over. I can't see Clark winning over many Kucinich supporters in a primary election.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

185. They haven't voted yet and the current results are .....'off'

Kucinich supporter here. Sorry, but I take offense to.. "...or Dean is winning many of them over."

What could Dean do to win me over besides Kucinich dropping out of the race? Did Dean change his stance on the pentagon budget, NAFTA, the unPatriot Act, etc? For me and other Kucinich supporters, Dennis is the best choice, hands down.

And as for the current results. Although there are many Clark supporters on DU. These results seem a bit out of whack.

TWL

[saoirse]

182. Thanks Pepperbelly

For finally putting the general in a poll!

The results don't surprise me a bit - of the declared candidates, Dean clearly has the momentum. If the general doesn't run (which, I'm very happy to say, seems pretty unlikely given his latest TV appearance) then I'm going with Dean. Unlike some I don't buy the
argument that he's unelectable - put him up against Dubya, and Dean will come off much better than Gore (who, as we all know, beat
Dubya in the 2000 election).

We have nothing to fear from a real race - on the contrary, it may be exactly what we need to garner excitement and force the corporate media to actually cover the primary. The key is to unite behind the eventual nominee, whoever that is. That's part of being a Democrat. I have zero tolerance for anyone who won't support the nominee just because he or she beat their candidate in the primary - that's the kind of nonsense I'd expect from Republicans.:P

[bluestateguy]

184. kick

Vote!

[ButterflyBlood]

186. lol, I like the one vote for Lie(ber)man

who's with me that it was some joker?

[VoteClark]

187. This poll is rigged, no way Lieberman got a vote!

What is up with that?
:shrug:

[bluestateguy]

188. Needs a little kick

:kick:

[bluestateguy]

191. Another kick for the morning

:kick:

Vote!

[Joe the Revelator]

192. I was a Dean man

then i did my homeworkd and switched to Clark

[deacon]

193. a dean/clark or clark/dean 2004 ticket ... either way is fine with me...

...and from what i have seen of kerry, he can't win the election--

another thing, if these 2 guys are energizing our party, and generating the most interest in our party, they SHOULD be on the ticket together.

[MiltonLeBerle]

197. I don't think that either one views himself as a #2 kind of guy.

But if it had to be one of those combinations, I would be more behind a Clark/Dean ticket
Besides- how often do two presidential primary contenders end up on the ticket together? Not bloody likely.

[NewJerseyDem]

200. Clark might

A lot of people think that Wesley Clark is just trying to be the vice presidential candidate. I agree that it is unlikely that Howard Dean would want to be the vice presidential canididate. He would be too controversial and wouldn't be able to take orders from the presidential canididate.

[snyttri]

214. Clark is not running for VP

Clark is definitely not shooting for VP. He wouldn't get into the race if he was satisfied with the field. I would hope he would be a good soldier and accept it if he does not win after going all out.

Reagan/Bush was a strong primary opponent ticket, even after Bush coined the term "voodoo economics" to peg Reagan.

[deacon]

240. It Happened with Reagan and Bush I

could very well end up that way here.

[VoteClark]

194. Bump

[Kahuna]

195. kick

:kick:

[tameszu]

198. kick of goodness (eom)

[Pepperbelly]

202. kick

:kick:

[goobergunch]

205. Current Results

Poll result (421 votes)
Braun (2 votes, 0%)
Clark (143 votes, 34%)
Dean (166 votes, 39%)
Edwards (11 votes, 3%)
Gephardt (4 votes, 1%)
Graham (7 votes, 2%)
Kerry (37 votes, 9%)
Kucinich (44 votes, 10%)
Lieberman (2 votes, 0%)
Sharpton (5 votes, 1%)

[VoteClark]

208. bump

[Magical]

209. Hey! It's Kick not bump.

Are you a freeper?!:kick:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

210. Ooooops.

[goobergunch]

229. I don't know...

but he is a 700 Club member. :evilgrin:

[tabasco]

212. Clark

Won't make the anti-military types happy. It takes a tremendous amount of ability to achieve what Clark has achieved. We need a decisive leader to get us out of the mess the Bush cabal has created. It bothers me to see so many folks stereotype military people. I'm a retired Army officer and a committed socialist.

[snyttri]

215. Viet Vets against the war...

...are among the strongest anti-war voices, and veterans just sound more credible on war issues.

Would anyone remember the warning about the "military-industrial complex" if Ike hadn't said it?

Clark smear warning: wasn't Benedict Arnold a general?

[VoteClark]

222. Some people are closed minded.

They think a military person is only about war. But hopefully that will change a bit. When a four star general says. "you are wrong to go to war with Iraqi" It will make Bush look even more like a chimp. But some people are too stupid to realize that.

:kick:
J4CLark

[bpilgrim]

226. 'some people are too stupid to realize that.' - some people, eh?

there might be other reasons no? like DK ;->

peace

[Bandit]

227. It is amazing how close Military life is to socialism

I can see how you can be both a lifer and a socialist. You certainly didn't have to worry about health care. And on a side note I find it surprising that Kerry is only receiving ten percent of DUers votes.

[TacticalPeek]

251. Hoorah...Power to the People. n/t

[VoteClark]

224. We need a run-off between Dean and Clark

Interested to see where people would go.

[bpilgrim]

225. are we being 'freeped' by clarkbars?

:evilgrin:

go DK :bounce:

peace

[TheBigGuy]

230. seems so...

buried in thos 200 + posts upthread is one saying this poll is being freeped from a Clark supporter yahoo group. The Clark Patrol has taken their first objective. (but I like Clarkbars too).

Of course, to be fair, the Deanyboppers have, I suspect, been freeping these polls too.

Does anyone really think there are that many posters here...for either Clark or Dean? Or is most of DU made up of lurkers who never post and just vote in these polls?

[tameszu]

232. Not so fast on the freeping allegations, kiddo

The post on the yahoo group was tongue-in-cheek.

The thing to remember is that these kinds of polls are incredibly unrepresentative--they bias things toward the people who have the most intense 'Net support. And even more so than Dean, the draft Clark movement is almost completely an Internet right now. So these two groups--as well as Kucinich supporters--are way overrepresented on DU.

Plus, yesterday, there were a lot of Clarkies running about excited about their candidates great interview on Late Edition. So it's not surprising that they motivated a huge turnout.

[TheBigGuy]

235. We are going to do this again a bit later in the week...

I want to see maybe two more of these polls....

[NewJerseyDem]

241. We should have a lot of polls

There should be something like a weekly poll on the presidential candidates. That way we could monitor how each of the candidates is doing. It would be better if we did have an Unsure option though. I'm sure that there are a lot of people who are uncommited right now. If only somebody would drop out.

[tameszu]

243. Fair enough

Although maybe we should just wait until Labor Day, when Clark decides one way or another? Speculating right now may not have that much of a point...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

234. Kucinich starting to distance himself from Kerry.

:kick:

[jos]

238. Gephardt

getting only one more vote than Lieberman is really unwarranted. I'm not a Gephardt supporter, but believe that he's a strong contender for the nomination. I wonder if there is class bias at work here. Where Gephardt gets a large proportion of the non-Internet crowd.

[NewJerseyDem]

239. Clark is falling back

It seems like Dean is still the most popular candidate. He has a 9 point lead over Clark even though Clark was leading earlier.

I guess that we basically have the top tier DU candidtates of Dean and Clark. Then the second tier of Kucinich and Kerry. Then, all the rest are well back even though Edwards is showing a little more support than the others.

[WyomingDemocrat]

245. From what I see

Dean is popular here. I guess I should really look into him.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

246. Seen Cheney lately?

[WyomingDemocrat]

249. No

Do not what the hell is doing ever since Bush has got elected but everytime I do see him he is telling jokes.

[tameszu]

250. Maybe he has lots of time to work on new material...

...in his undisclosed location!

And if you figure out where it is, let us know!

[VoteClark]

252. Somebody voted 4 times, for Lieberman.

[bluestateguy]

256. kick

Seems as if K'nich has moved into third place all by himself. Looks like all the Clark supporters have voted.

[jfkennedy]

259. Wesley Clark has gone way up in polls on DU

The following is a poll that was put up on DU a few days ago before the current DU poll with Clark on it.


Who would you vote for President in the 2004 election if a war was going on?


General Clark
9.26 % (10)

John Kerry
6.48 % (7)

Joe Lieberman
0.00 % (0)

Howard Dean
76.85 % (83)

George Bush
7.41 % (8)

Total Votes: 108


http://antiwarmonger.com/mod.php?mod=poll&op=results&pid=20

http://antiwarmonger.com

[bluestateguy]

261. kick

:kick:

[TSIAS]

262. Just for the record

Here is the most recent DU poll I found, which was conducted beginning July 7.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2460&mesg_id=2460

Without being able to verify the poll's validity, it appears like every candididate lost some support adding in Clark.

Kucinich dropped the most, losing 11 points, from 23 to 12.

Dean did lose 7 percentage points, dropping from 47 to 40.

Kerry lost about the same, losing 6 points.

Pretty much, everbody else stayed the same.

It does appear that Clark displays significant support among DU'ers. I'm a bit surprised that Kucinich lost so much. Kucinich backers wouldn't seem like the type that would leave for Clark. I've found Kucinich supporters to be very passionate about their candidate. From the basis of these comparisons, it looks like support will be taken from each of the major candidates.

[TheEarthIsFlat]

263. Go

Dean!

[bluestateguy]

264. 'nother kick

:kick:

[bluestateguy]

265. kick

:kick:

[TSIAS]

266. kick

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

267. kick

:kick:

[LynneSin]

268. Four votes for Lieberman?

The way we talk about Lieberman I thought everyone was supporting him in the primaries??!!!

:eyes:

[bluestateguy]

269. kick

:kick:

[bluestateguy]

270. kick

:kick:

I trying to keep this alive as long as possible...

[bluestateguy]

271. kick

:kick: