Clark Supporters - Give Them Credit

[JasonBerry]

I do not like Wesley Clark - let's get that out of the way. I think this whole business of his not even disclosing whether he is a DEMOCRAT is just plain ridiculous. It's taken him too long to even BEGIN to trust him. His past is not as sterling as many are writing on DU. For one thing, the man does not have the temperament to be president. Wesley Clark is known to have an explosive temper. Would you have wanted General Patton in the White House?

However, the purpose of my post is to give Clark supporters credit for the draft campaign. I'm not convinced Clark isn't behind it all, but it has been impressive. In fact, the influx of Clark supporters here to DU has changed the face of this "progressive" forum. This is, however, Democratic Underground - little "d" as well - as in democracy. So, while I do not support the man, don't understand the support that borders on worship, I respect the right for the Clark people to show up in droves and push for their candidate.

A lot of money is involved in this draft campaign. The web site. The TV spot. The organizing. All of that takes more than a few five and ten dollar bills dribbling in. I have worked in a "draft" campaign in the past. It was well-organized, but NOTHING like what we have seen for Clark. It makes me a bit suspicious about the "dollars behind the draft" - but - it's impressive no matter what. Again - not that I like it. It is perplexing to me. But.....

This is America.

In America, John Ashcroft be damned, we still have a democracy. The Clark draft campaign is an exercise in that democratic ideal. While I personally hope that Clark is not successful, the effort (all of it) is to be admired.

[bicentennial_baby]

1. Thank you

As someone who has tangled with you in the past over Clark, I appeciate your post a lot!

:toast:

[WilliamPitt]

2. Nicely said n/t

[Kahuna]

31. What the...?!?

:shrug:



:P

[WilliamPitt]

42. What's your problem? n/t

[wndycty]

45. Will I think Kahuna. . .

. . .is asking how to interpret your initial reaction to this thread. Are you agreeing with the fact that the Draft Clark movement has been impressive? Or are you agreeing with the cynicism of the post? Or a little bit of both?


I think you are either supporting or leaning towards Kerry, but I would love for you to give Clark some consideration.

BTW--I caught you on CSPAN and I was extremely proud that you are a fellow DUer

[eleny]

3. "Wesley Clark is known to have an explosive temper."....

Can you please direct me to where I can read about this for myself. Some things are worth getting angry about. I like to make up my own mind about such things.

Thanks,
Eleny

[JasonBerry]

6. Don't focus on that.....please.

Forget I wrote a reason at all why I do not support Clark.

I really intended to offer praise for a job well done on the part of Clark supporters - and praise for a democracy we all want to defend from the attacks on the current occupant of the White House.

There will be time for all of the reasons why some do not support Wesley Clark. Tonight, I just wanted to offer an observation that makes me feel good I don't live in Indonesia.

[newyawker99]

24. Hi eleny!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[MidwestTransplant]

4. You should read this to get an idea of .his character.

I should also mention that what you have "heard" about his temper is not necessarily true. If you will remember, Karl Rove said the same thing about John McCain prior to the SC primary. Supposedly Clinton has a severe temper too by the way.

This excerpt was posted by VolcanoJen in an earlier thread. I found it very interesting (along with the whole article which i read a while ago):

You'll have to click "next" to read the whole story. Esquire has it truncated into several pages.

http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2003/030801_mfe_clark_7.html

Excerpt:

"In August 1995, the general—three stars, working as J-5 for the Joint Chiefs—went to Bosnia as part of the negotiating team Ambassador Richard Holbrooke had put together to end the civil war that had resulted in the massacre of as many as eight thousand Muslim men and boys at the town of Srebrenica the month before. In Belgrade, Clark had met for the first time Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic, who was sponsoring the Bosnian Serbs. Now the team had to travel to Sarajevo. Told that the airport in Sarajevo was too dangerous to fly into, the team decided to drive and asked Milosevic to guarantee its safety on a road held by Bosnian Serbs. Milosevic did not, and so the team wound up taking a fortified Humvee and an armored personnel carrier on a pitched, narrow, winding mountain road notoriously vulnerable to Serb machine-gun fire. Clark and Holbrooke went in the Humvee, the rest in the APC. In his book, the general describes what happened this way: "At the end of the first week we had a tragic accident on Mount Igman, near Sarajevo. (Three members of the team) were killed when the French armored personnel carrier in which they were riding broke through the shoulder of the road and tumbled several hundred meters down a steep hillside.

It is not until one reads Holbrooke's book, To End a War, that one finds out that after the APC went off the road, Clark grabbed a rope, anchored it to a tree stump, and rappelled down the mountainside after it, despite the gunfire that the explosion of the APC set off, despite the warnings that the mountainside was heavily mined, despite the rain and the mud, and despite Holbrooke yelling that he couldn't go. It is not until one brings the incident up to the general that one finds out that the burning APC had turned into a kiln, and that Clark stayed with it and aided in the extraction of the bodies; it is not until one meets Wesley Clark that one understands the degree to which he held Milosevic accountable."

Edited for spelling

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Many Pukes Also

implied that McCain had a screw loose from his days as a prisoner in the Hanoi Hilton.

Puke operatives suggested he's nuts cuz he dared to challenge the boy prince.

When I see Wes Clark getting slammed in this format I wonder from the bowels of which campaign it comes from.

[Trajan]

37. THIS man .... Wesley Clark .....

Rappelling down a steep mountainside, under fire, to try to save others ....

THIS is a real man ..... a true hero ....

I am generally a pacificist who believes that in only the most DIRE circumstances should man make war ..... But I am a strong admirer of Wesley Clark: ... NOT as a general ..... but as a selfless hero, willing to put HIS ass on the line for the sake of others ....

THIS man ... Wesley Clark, .. was also wounded four times in Vietnam .... AGAIN: .... personal sacrifice under fire ....

THIS is what TRUE heroes are made of .... The MORE I see of this man, the more I like him .....

BTW: .... I have YET to see any evidence that Clark does not personally hold a decent set of progressive policies to heart ... EVERY utterance of policy from this man has placed him solidly in the progressive camp .... I see no reason to presume he is NOT a progressive simply because he was a general ....

[graham67]

5. Explosive Temper?

I've heard nothing about an explosive temper. No doubt he has little tolerance for fools ;-)

[Pastiche423]

14. Explosive temper?

DEFENDING AMERICA
David H. Hackworth
August 9, 1999

A PERFUMED PRINCE GETS THE AXE

NATO's General Wesley Clark is the first military leader in our country's recent history who won a war without receiving a Fifth Avenue parade.

Instead of being lionized, he got just what the rest of the U.S. Army has gotten in the last decade: downsized. The Pentagon's spin is, "This is a normal rotation, his tour was just shortened." It was shortened, all right. A review of past NATO skippers shows they had four to five years in the job as opposed to Clark's less than three.

So what went wrong?

Was it Clark's apocalyptic order to use NATO forces for blocking Russia's end run at the Kosovo air base, or his threats to have NATO sea power stop Russian ships from supplying the Serb army with oil? Either act of bad judgement could well have triggered a nuclear war with Russia.

Was it because Clark and his flacks kept crowing about how NATO was destroying the Serb army, when in truth NATO barely laid a glove on its opponent?

Was it because Clark's $120,000 U.S. Army Mercedes -- with a reported highly classified radio system aboard -- was car-jacked while his wife used it as a personal vehicle to drive to the golf course?

Certainly these sins, plus his hot temper, abrasive style and demand for much of America's air assets to fight the Serbs, didn't exactly win fans in Washington. Like a little boy stamping his feet, he wanted everything NOW and showed no concern for the Pentagon's need to maintain global forces to cover threats from other fronts such as Iraq and North Korea.

More...

http://www.hackworth.com/9aug99.html

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Colornel Hackworth

Fox Pundit and avowed enemy of gays in the military *, Colornel Hackworth slams a progressive general like Wes Clark.

I'm not suprised.

F--k that reactionary bastard.

Karl Rove must be having nocturnal emissions over this.








*Colornel Hackworth wrote an editiorial against gays in the military for Newseek during the whole "don't ask, don't tell brouhaha."

[BansheeBarbie]

34. Hyperbole

"Either act of bad judgement could well have triggered a nuclear war with Russia."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. The Russians Were Grandstanding And Way Out Of Line

and were disappointed that their buddy boys, the Serbs went down.

I'd take one Wes Clark over a 1,000 shit faced Boris Yeltsins.

[tjdee]

7. Dean is the only one who can raise money honestly?

You're suspicious about the dollars behind the draft?

Seriously?

Gee, you weren't that suspicious when Dean raised all his money.

I'm glad you appreciate the effort, but does the fact that you are suspicious of it nullify that appreciation?

On edit:
You know, Dean and Clark supporters, as has been noted, are similar in some ways--with the grassroots, the supporters from across the political spectrum... I hope Clark/Dean doesn't replace Kerry/Dean.

[ryharrin]

33. Well, Dean has to disclose where all of his donations are coming from,

right? Also, he can't accept more than $2000 from any one place. Clark's isn't an official campaign, so I would imagine it could be financed any way they wanted.

[graham67]

40. Both...

draftwesleyclark.com and draftclark2004.com are unauthorized PACs. The FEC rules apply to both.

[Dookus]

8. Thanks Jason...

but let me stipulate that a lot of us Clark supporters are not a new influx to DU. We've been here all along and are just now settling on our candidates. I just "came out" today as a Clark supporter.

I've said frequently in the past that he's an attractive candidate, but after reading about his appearance on CNN today, I think he's worthy of my support. A lot of longtime DU'ers are reaching that conclusion.

edited to fix goofy sentence construction

[KoKo]

9. Yes, I also give them credit for the "draft" campaign....even though I

posted the "Spoiler" post here in GD I feel we need to ask questions about all the candidates who are supported by folks here on DU. If we don't ask the questions and get answers the media will find every which way to discredit each of them.

If we don't try to find out as much as we can.....how can we be prepared to fight back when the Pundits start their lies?

Better to ask the questions here....than to wonder when the Rove Researchers will start to leak. All of our candidates have something in their background or campaign that's going to upset one or the other of us.......I just hope we can get it aired here and work it out amongst ourselves.

[VoteClark]

10. Expolsive Temper? Who said that? I think it was, could it be, why yes it

was Karl Rove who said that about McCain.

Of course, Clinton, George Washington, and about 1/2 the US Presidents had explosive tempers. Like when politicans lie, or slaughter people for power. That sets me off too.

I know that Washington use to beat his forhead ever time he came back with a meeting with Congress. He couldn't understand how stupid they could be.

A little temper is a good thing. Most the passionate people I know get angry sometimes. I think anyone that doesn't get angry and really irrate about something or someone ought to ask themselves if they really feel or care about anything.

I have never seen Clark really anger, but considering that he worked with a Repuke controlled Senate and House, and about 40 NATO nations and a military that would say they are going to send equipment and supplies and then didn't putting his men and women in danger, I can see him getting a little upset about that once in while.

Stupid damn Congress and White House :argh:

Opps, must not be a Democrat, huh?

:kick:
J4Clark

[tameszu]

11. I am impressed by your graciousness

Especially considering your vehemence last night.

Thanks for a comparatively moderate post--it is good that you are willing to be open-minded enough to entertain the possibility that the draft movement may be an authentically democratic one.

As someone allied with the Clarkies, I should note that it's easy to overestimate the amount of support that Clark has right now, at least if you're talking about the entire population of the United States. The reason you have never seen any draft movement like the draft Clark movement is the same reason no one has ever seen any insurgency movement like Dean's. One word: the Internet.

As with Dean's support, Clark's support is very Internet-heavy. He has poor name recognition outside of the cognescenti and people who surf forums like DU and blogs. But both Dean and Clark are showing that with tools like MeetUp and a few mobilized people who are organized and on the same page, a compelling message that starts small can cascade quickly into something very large. All of the ideas of memes, low entry barriers, high connectivity and quick response and so on are coming alive this election. And it might just be the thing that takes out the republicans.

Aside: As a progressive, I admit that we do have reason to be concerned about such movements--the Internet is no doubt a resource whose availability is not equally available to all. In some ways, it is more egalitarian, but its access is still biased toward certain groups.

Considering your views on the Balkans--the differences over which we should set aside here for the sake of civility--I never expect that your suspicions will be completely allayed. But why don't you check out some more of the draft movement if you really are suspicious? I've been following this movement for awhile--since Kos of the Daily Kos set up the original Draft Clark site just after the 2002 midterms, and it spent a long time in obscurity before finally gearing up a couple months ago and now reaching some sort of critical mass--I myself only recently decided to become seriously mobilized. I'm sure John Hlinko (who helped found the site MoveOn) and others will be very forthcoming.

P.S.: I would also disagree on your definition of "progressive." I feel that the "Clark supporters" who have arrived in DU in "droves" lately are on the whole not much less progressive than the folks who are here normally. I don't want to reopen the debate that we had yesterday, but in my opinion a small number of writers on the "far left"--a misnomer, because I do not feel that the political axis can be described in that way--have done much harm to those who promote a truly pragmatic and emancipatory progressive vision through their embrace of a "totalizing" critique. (If you're wondering, I define myself as an optimistic roughly Habermasian liberal). But this is a debate for another day.

[tameszu]

12. The best defense is honesty (and a good offense): Clark's temper

I believe, besides a very biased Counterpunch article--which I take to be a completely disreputable source--the only significant widely circulating evidence of Clark's "explosive temper" are various accounts of a tactical disagreement he had with a subordinate British general, also known as the Pristina Airport incident.

I supply you with what I view as a fairly trustworthy and evenhanded source on the incident, the http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/671495.stm">BBC's account of the exchange.

Otherwise, I know of no significant or trustworthy reports that would suggest that Clark has "an explosive temper."

I suspect that this may be old hat for many of the Clarkies who have done some research--but for those who haven't, better to know it in advance than to hear it from one of Rove's agents.

(This exchange was also described by Clark in his book Waging Modern War)

[Catch22Dem]

13. 2 things

1. Clark voted dem in the 2000 election

2. Clinton didn't get into the race until Oct.

[dfong63]

15. 1 thing

unlike Clark, when Clinton entered the race he did so as a man with a great track record in electoral politics. and a track record as a Democrat.

[Dookus]

17. As a manager

in Silicon Valley for 20 years, I've hired lots of people.

If the current crop of candidates submitted resumes for an executive position, not ONE would come even close to comparing to Clark's.

I'd resign and give Clark MY job!

1st in his class at West Point
Rhodes Scholar, with Masters in Philosophy, Economics and Politics
Decorated and wounded Vietnam War veteran.
Supreme Allied Commander, NATO.

oh... and really progressive too!

[TacticalPeek]

16. Very reasonable observations.

I think some of the reason for the approachingly successful draft, and for some of the breathless support here is that some of us are very, very, very obsessed with ousting aWol. I know, like who here ain't.

My obsession makes me think like, if this here hammer will do, then how about this here sledge? And if a sledge has appeal, then how about this here pile-driver?

Depending on the tint of one's glasses, we see x or y dem candidate as hammer, sledge, pile-driver, etc. My current hot fantasy is Clark's campaign going so super well, that by this time next year, aWol is already an ex-president.

I swear I can see that happening, with much help from burgeoning bushco scandals. The chimp is a coward. I don't say that as an insult, just an observation. During the 2000 FL fiasco, aWol was AWOL, and stayed hunkered darkly down at the "ranch", letting his daddy's fixers do the deciding and acting. I thought, "Damn, if this guy wins, we'll have a yellow SOB as president; not good for our country."

And in the time since, aWol has proven this out. AWOL on 9/11; AWOL for the blackout. Clark will be socking it to him while he is seeing his minions going to trial or copping pleas. He can't strap that on; it'll be like he's a pig on a spit over white-hot coals of shame and humiliation. The Big Dog stood up to similar pressure because he's a braveheart, took the lickin' and kept on tickin'. But not this chump. He'll be curled up in his closet sucking his thumb. He'll either pull a Roberto Duran "No mas", or if he's too dumb to recognize the end of his rope, then TPTB will send him the memo thru the Repug leadership in an attempt to salvage something out of '04.

[LTR]

18. Clark's temper

"Explosive temper"? I'm sure many presidents have had a pretty explosive temper.

In fact, I could probably name a few (off the top of my head and with help from a few books) who 'supposedly' had (since Clark 'supposedly' has) a bad temper):

LBJ (the most obvious!!!)
Truman
Eisenhower
Clinton (allegedly, but does a great job of keeping it under check)
Kennedy (I wouldn't be surprised)
FDR
Teddy Roosevelt
Nixon
Coolidge (but he was so aloof that few could really tell)
Tyler (eventually thumbed his nose at Washington D.C. by being elected to the Confederate Congress)
Andrew Johnson
Washington
Jefferson
Cleveland
Bush 1 and 2 (can it be more obvious?)
Taylor
Ford
Jackson (fired his whole cabinet, almost beat the hell out of a would-be assassin)
Van Buren
Buchanan

Ones known to be mild:

Grant (probably his downfall, he was too nice and let people take advantage of him)
Harding (see Grant)
Carter
Arthur (known more for throwing lavish parties as president, but also tough on civil service reform. Gained many enemies in his former political machines, but seemed to be fairly mellow)
Hayes
Pierce
Garfield (the only preacher to ever become president. Known to be very shy.)
Benjamin Harrison

What does all of this mean? It seem many of the mellower-types were less successful at the presidency. The administrations of Grant and Harding are regarded as very corrupt, due to political cronies and cabinet members who walked all over them.

Pierce, Garfield and Harrison were known for being very aloof, and not eliciting much emotion.

Granted, there are examples of being too hot-tempered. Nixon's was his eventual undoing. LBJ is probably the most notorious for his fiery temper and his methods of intimidation. But the escalation of the Vietnam War led to him declining to seek a second full term. George W.P. Bush looked like a total bufoon when he lost his temper about eating broccoli, and at the end of the 1992 campaign, when his final desperate rallying cry was calling Clinton and Gore (a couple of bozos".

But Truman, Eisenhower and Kennedy are three modern-day examples of aggression well-channelled. Truman was attacked on all fronts during his administration, from inside and outside his party. But he ran the government on common sense, no B.S., and he was adamant about it. Eisenhower was also known for having a commanding presense, and I'm sure one does not become a general by being Mr. Nice Guy. Of course there was JFK in the Bay Of Pigs.

So what the hell am I talking about anyways? All I'm saying is that there are many different types of people to hold the office of the presidency. And I imagine it takes a little temperment sometimes to assert the power of the office. One thing I've noticed about Clark is that he knows how to walk the line, unlike Truman, LBJ, and the Bushes, who openly ranted. He seems very calm, and under control.

We need a guy like that in Washington.

I admire your input and opinion, but I have to disagree with you.

[JI7]

21. a temper like bill clinton ?

bill clinton is said to have a temper and i love clinton, so it the temper thing does not bother me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. He Allegedly Beat Up Dick Morris (LOL)

He got in a big fight with Bernie Shaw on live tv after Bernie questioned how successful his 92 New Hampshire showing really was.
He was caught calling Jesse Jackson a backstabber on "live air" when he mistakenly thought Jesse had endorsed Tom Harkin in the 92 campaign.

Who cares. None of us want to be judged by our worst moments.


This Clark temper shit which comes out of Freeper wet dreams and Rovian emissions is nothing but cacka.

If the effete Rove and his cabal of derelict draft dodgers want to attack General Clark bring it on.

[JI7]

23. THAT'S having a temper ?

if what you list are examples of clinton having a temper then this isn't an issue at all. and i'm sure whatever temper clark has is probably similar to that. it's not as if he is going around beating up people for no reason.

and beating up dick morris is what i think any normal person would do. hehe

[wndycty]

25. I take a little offense to this passage...

"In fact, the influx of Clark supporters here to DU has changed the face of this "progressive" forum. This is, however, Democratic Underground - little "d" as well - as in democracy. So, while I do not support the man, don't understand the support that borders on worship, I respect the right for the Clark people to show up in droves and push for their candidate."

I wish we had an exact counter next to our screen name, I would be sitting at about 3500**. I take offense when someone who does not even have 1000 posts implies that there has been some type of invasion of Clark supporters. I have been here since year one, and I am not going anywhere.

**ON EDIT--chiburb has looked at my profile (I don't know how to do that), and informed me that I had only 2874 posts (I swear I thought I had more). So if that is what it says I have. . .that is what it will be. But I thought I would leave the 3500 with the ** to accurately reflect what I thought to be be truth at the time I posted. Regardless I am sitting at over 2800 which I think would show that I am not part of this influx. Thanks for the info chiburb, now tell me how to look up my profile.

[chiburb]

26. You're at 2874 posts...

Just click on your profile...

:-)

[wndycty]

27. Boy you lose track

How do I do I find out the number of posts? Do I lose credibility by claiming 3500 in that post? I thought I had that many? Hopefully the 2874 post I do have show that I am not here as part of an "influx" of Clark supporters.

[WilliamPitt]

43. Click the little head next to your name

It comes after the (1000+) and is one of four or five little icons.

[59millionmorons]

28. the man does not have the temperament to be president

So when has that become necessary to be President, havent you heard we are now allowing morons to be President.

[JI7]

47. hehhe

the ignorant shit in the white house is an embarrasment

[robbedvoter]

29. Old timer DU-er here too and Clark supporter - we are not from Mars

(or Venus). But I do appreciate the graciousness of the intent - in the end we all need to get together around the nominee, whatever our initial misgivings. Thank you for setting the tone.

[ibegurpard]

30. Actually, I think just the opposite.

I have nothing against Clark...I haven't given him a thought or any consideration because he won't admit he's a Democrat and he (as of yet) isn't even running. What I can't stand are some of the people on this board who trumpet him as our savior against Bush and yet when I ask them about my concerns (stated above) I get "Oh, he's just running a smart, non-partisan campaign" or something like "trust me, he's a Democrat."
Months ago, before he dropped out, I was strongly backing Gore. At that time, there was a particularly obnoxious person who was spamming every candidate thread with pro-Dean stuff. Now, just like I feel about Clark now, I had nothing against Dean. In fact, I was intrigued by him. I could not STAND this person however. It didn't bias me against Dean (once I saw that Gore was out for sure I got very interested in Dean) but it DID make me ignore anything that came from that particular poster. That is how I feel about a lot of the Clark people right now.
I'm not saying they should stop...obviously getting the word out about a candidate requires a lot of promotion. I just personally don't like them. Rest assured, if Clark gets in I will definitely pay him some attention, particularly if Dean falters but it will be in SPITE of all the Clark people trying to whip up support for him on DU.

[Julien Sorel]

32. So there should be a vacuum, and peoples' opinions

should simply crystalize in the aether, like Aphrodite appearing from the foam.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. More Like The Immaculate Conception

In search of the antecedent

[Trajan]

41. What does it mean to be a Democrat ? ...

One can be a declared 'Democrat' ... but NOT hold onto the progressive policies that define what a Democrat is ....

Think Zell Miller ....

One can be a declared Republican, ... but NOT hold onto the conservative policies that define what a conservative is ...

Think Arnold Schartzeneggar ....

Simply DECLARING a party doesnt define a man's philosophy ....

Aye, it is the man's PHILOSOPHY that truly matters ...

I wont vote for a DEMOCRAT who is supply side, ANTI-Choice, AGAINST public education and ANTI-Internationalist .... since these values define a conservative philosophy ....

Wesley Clark's stated opinions define his PHILOSOPHY as progressive, since he DOES support Choice, DEMAND-side Keynesian, SUPPORTS public education, and IS Internationalist in his worldview ....

It is Clarks stated positions that PLACE him into the progressive camp: .. NOT his declaration of party ....

His stated positions ARE Democratic party positions ....

He will declare a party .... and it will be the Democratic party ....

I'd stake my life on it ....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I Agree With Everything You Said

I used to like Zell Miller. He was a good friend and supporter of Clinton but then like Lieberman they went so far out of their way to side with * they became caricatures of themselves.

[Pastiche423]

46. Clark has not declared

he is a proud Democrat. Period!

No guts? He's afraid of losing repug and indy votes?

Bullshit!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

36. "support that borders on worship" - you mean like Dean?

I haven't heard any Clark fans say anything close to "worship" - it's the Dean people that talk about how Dean makes them "feel". Clark supporters like Clark's positions (even though he's been rather vague) and his electibility. I still haven't figured out why anyone likes Dean.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. How Does Dean Make Them Feel?

[chaska]

48. Could that praise be any more backhanded?

Who needs this BS.