A calm call for solidarity.

[Liberal Veteran]

Okay people. Let's be honest. No matter who was on the ticket, it was not going to be everything to everyone. That's the nature of politics.

Right now we have a job a to do. That job is to win back this White House and evict the the joke currently occupying it.

Now is the time to BUILD up the democratic candidates. Believe me when I say the other side is MORE than capable of trying to tear down our candidates through constant criticism.

My feeling is this election is much too important be petulant about single pet issues and constantly harp about them.

We can make a positive change for this nation, but can we PLEASE work on winning this election first?

[Jacobin]

1. What's a war or two among Dems, right?

Kerry ain't drafting my kids.

The problem is the censorship on this board about facing the MOST important issue he will have to face.

Hiding our heads in the sand is a certain recipe for disaster.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. Nobody is hiding their heads in the sand.

Kerry isn't trying to draft your kids. He's been to an unjust war before.

Don't presume to lecture the majority of us on DU who have stood against the war in Iraq, but IF you want to make a change, you better get your head out of your ass and start being realistic and standing behind our candidate and helping to make positive change where we can.

If you can't do that. Then by all means, at least don't give the other side ammo to use against us.

The other side is already working to undermine support for our candidate in order to get George W. Bush another term.

Is that what you want?

Choose a side and work to win. We can make a change AFTER we win, but your tantrum is not helping matters.

[Jacobin]

13. I support Kerry. I have contributed to Kerry. I will work to drive voters

to the polls on election day.

Why are you so convinced that Kerry won't reinstate the draft? Just because he said so? I find that to be naive.

When he gets in office, what is he going to do with Iraq? I want to know and I want to know that DUers aren't going to fall in lockstep with whatever the fuck he wants to do like a bunch of Freepers supporting Smirk's dive off a cliff.

This blind support for a candidate is silly, not rational and is bound to lead to disaster politically and otherwise.

I find this inability of rabid Kerry supporters to question him and his policies misguided and dangerous.

This is not a theoretical issue. This is about life and death. I'm astounded at the rapidity with which DU has closed ranks around two men, with no dissent allowed.

Count me out.

[Liberal Veteran]

32. I'm simply saying now is the time to UNITE, not divide.

As Lincoln said, "though passion may have strained, it must not break the bonds of our affection".

We have four months. We don't have the luxury of reinvention. We are closing ranks because we see a much larger picture. Nothing turns 180 on a moment's notice. Particularly not our country. We have to steer the country, but first we have to take the rudder in order to do so.

We can steer this country in the right direction, but for the sake of our country and our children, we have to get the current administration out. Right now our side is almost completely locked out of EVERYTHING. Legislation, appointments, committees, you name it. We can't go on this way and I see Kerry as the way to change that.

Why spend so much energy criticizing Kerry when we can work together to make the single most important change there is?

Look at your own words. You all but call Kerry a liar. How does that help?

[Forkboy]

34. And you called people petulant

How does that help?

Physician heal thyself!

[Kanary]

35. Maybe you could see *your* part in "breaking the bonds of

affection"?

I also invite you to look at your words.

Think about being on the receiving end of them............ would it inspire you to bust your butt for a candidate?

Just cogitate a bit.......

Kanary

[Liberal Veteran]

37. Yours and a couple of others have made up their minds already...

....it's obvious I am not going to convince you that we need to prop up our candidate as the other side tears them down.

We are all in the same leaky skiff. Some us of are bailing water, while others are pissing in the bottom of the boat and acting holier than thou about doing so. I agree with your ideals, but your methods of helping leave much to be desired.

Cogitate and masticate on that while showing off your vocabulary.

[Forkboy]

38. I guess you just dont want unity THAT bad

not to the point of actually living up to your own words :eyes:

Sorry for pointing out your hypocisy.Even sorrier you ignored it.

[Liberal Veteran]

40. If unity means cowtowing to petulant whining minority....

....then no.

I simply made a call that work hard to get our candidates elected, not try to bitch and moan and whine and bring them down.

Sorry you ignored that. I'm even sorrier you had to try to make this a personal pissing match between us instead of simply agreeing to disagree.

I pray you don't rue your part in "helping" the party in November.

[Forkboy]

42. Way to go with that unity thing

ahhh,hypocrisy.

[Liberal Veteran]

43. Again....as I said. We will have to agree to disagree.

I'm sorry the message was lost on you.

Quit trying to make this a personal grudge match between us. It is unbecoming and does nothing to further this.

Okay?

Criticize Kerry to your heart's content. I disagree that's the way to help the party at this point. I can't unify with your position on that and I certainly can't while you are doing everything to try to make me out be some bad guy who is not on your side. I am not your enemy. I've said what I had to say about it and nothing more needs to be said between us on this.

BTW...this is me. Please to meet you:

[Forkboy]

44. Thanks for the pic

hope you'll be back out with us after November.

[Kanary]

45. Speaking of "holier than thou"

Handing ultimatums to those you want to put forth effort is a great example of ego.

How's that working for ya?

Kanary

[Liberal Veteran]

47. I didn't hand an ultimatum...I merely made a suggestion...

...and gave an argument for it and why I feel the way I do.

A couple of people disagree that there is strength in solidarity and wanted to take out some frustration for feeling like their concerns aren't being met by the party or feel they are being censored by party on me. I'm tough enough to handle a few flames.

Hell, if I can live through 4 years of George W. Bush, I can handle anything.

[Kanary]

48. Well, maybe that's how it sounded in your head.....

but it sounded differently on it's way into my ears.

There's a lot of room for various perspectives, and trying to limit that (and insinuating that those with a different perspective from yours are somehow "whining" and "helping the other side" ) just is NOT the spirit of democracy. Which is why I tried to share that with some quotes from our Founders. It's easy to lose sight of that larger goal.

As for "strength in solidarity"........ when that solidarity forbids difference of opinion, it is not strength..... it becomes brittle, and easily broken.

The one thought I'll leave you with, then I'll quit this particular thread with the hope that you actually *will* consider this question, and those quotes.......

How do you think that Kerry, himself, views dissent? Do you really *really* think that he is bothered by some people questioning some of his votes, and some of his policy? Kerry has been in the Senate for a l-o-n-g time, and you don't handle a job like that by not tolerating *any* kind of dissent. Kerry has had to compromise, and work with colleagues of various beliefs in order to get his work done. I strongly suspect he knows very well that he is facing some strong questions from those who are willing to vote for him. I don't think he's nearly as upset about that as you are. He knows how this country works, and isn't expecting blind adoration.

edited to add: Maybe it would be good for you to ask Kerry himself how he feels about questions and dissent from his votes and policies. I've never worked on a campaign in my life where we didn't expect some questions and dissent. It just doesn't happen.

He's already told veterans to march and protest. I'm sure he has received letters to his Senate office over the years from constituents who voted for him, but disagree on some issues, and want to be heard. Can you trust your candidate to handle some criticism from some of his voters?

Good night.......

Kanary

[Kanary]

36. dept of redundancy dept

:hi:

[Imperialism Inc.]

41. I haven't seen this "censorship" or "no dissent"

thing you mention.

I saw a thread locked that suggested voting out of the party in "safe states" but that is to be expected (and even commended). If you want to discuss voting strategy there are other sites. One of my favorite sites has lots of info on that subject (http://zmag.org/weluser.htm) . I don't personally bother with it much. My vote has been decided for a while and think some of the article giving safe state advice are non-sense (there are other articles there that don't suggest that but they are in the minority). You can also visit their forums and strategy section (http://forum.zmag.org/~Public1) to talk about that topic.

The only thing I have noticed is that there has been a subtle shift where some sites once considered good or even great are now considered questionable. Usually this has to do with the fact that the site was outside the mainstream and therefore willing to criticize Bush when no one else was. Now that there is a Democratic candidate and they are critical of him as well they are no longer considered good sources. It is a little odd to see but they aren't being censored, only questioned. That seems reasonable with the only disclaimer that they probably should have been questioned before as well.

If you really feel that Kerry is a dive off a cliff and aren't just upset with a few positions then maybe the Dems aren't;t for you this year. When I feel like that I visit http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/ so that I can see just how many areas Kerry differs from Bush on. Or visit http://www.ppionline.org/ and read some third way policies... many of them are quite brilliant! (I'm guessing , but you might want to stay away from the foreign policy / national security stuff like I do! :) ).

It can be a little disconcerting to see people you consider super sharp and always able, in the past, to see through the BS, seeming to put blinders on or even supporting things from a Dem they would blast Bush for. But they are probably still just as sharp but taking the position they feel is necessary to remove a threat to this country that is orders of magnitude greater than John Kerry will ever be. Or they may have indeed put on ideological blinders. I know I do and have and I am further left than the mainstream Dem party. I'm sure you do it as well... we all do from time to time. So just try to keep that in mind and make to election day with your wits intact.

One thing that might help is to join a group that is registering voters. This is always good and you don't need to believe in anything but democracy. I have recently joined one and I feel much better now.

http://www.actforvictory.org/
http://www.acorn.org/
http://projectvote.org/

[Amaya]

That wasn't the point....

Nobody is hiding their head in the sand. First things first. One step at a time. Don't you think?

[Don_G]

2. I Agree

And the other candidates may have a job too.

I would appreciate seeing Dean as Sec-Def for example.

[DarkPhenyx]

3. Believe me I understand the sentiment.

However I disagree with the idea that jsut because he happens to be "our candidate" that we are not allowed to voice descent with a idea of his. To quote Temujin "Disagreement is not disloyalty." For me loyalty and support for my leaders includes telling them they are being stupid jackasses.

[Liberal Veteran]

9. If you want them to lead, maybe we should help them WIN first.

Logically, it seems like a better idea.

[DarkPhenyx]

10. Which I can do...

...and still tell them where I think they are going wrong. It is much harder to influance their positions once they are elected as it is those positions which "got them elected". Despite what the Freeper set want you to believe it really does matter how you play the game.

[Forkboy]

4. Damn petulant anti-war people

How dare they be upset about thousands dying needlessly.C'mon you little babies,suck it up and be good. :eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Do you want to win or whine?

It's seems like an obvious choice to me. If we loose, you can be assured more of our kids are going to die.

Is that what you want?

[Forkboy]

19. I didn't vote for the war

Seems to me you're the one who will be happy.

BTW,when did you stop beating your significant other?

[Liberal Veteran]

27. I didn't vote for the war. Indeed, I marched against it.

As did tens of millions of people around the world. And that asswipe in the White House ignore us.

Do you honestly believe that Kerry and Bush are cut from the same cloth?

I don't. The fact that Kerry has already stated that he believes his religious convictions should not be imposed on the American people is proof of that.

The pieces are in play. We can't change that in midstream and doing so would be a disaster at this point.

Now it's down to working toward November where the single most positive change I can imagine (getting rid of Bush and his thug brigade) is the prize.

[Forkboy]

28. You dont need responses from me

You just make up a point I never said and argue with that.It's going well so far.

[Jacobin]

15. Will they send their sons and daughters of to die when Kerry is

president?

Will Free Republic and DU merge?

I'm jolted by the lack of angst at the suppression of dissent here.

[qwertyMike]

5. GET BUSH, CHENEY, RUMSFELD

and that little weasel Wolfowitz out!!!!!!!!!!

That's solidarity

[theivoryqueen]

8. possibility that these opinions would be used against our candidates

I think it might be so. I also think it's best not to hand the enemy any extra weapons.

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Bingo. You don't see the repubs constantly attacking their own candidate.

There is something to learn from that.

[theivoryqueen]

14. precisely

I posted that exact sentiment in another thread. Their party discipline is famously effective. While I do not propose we emulate each tactic the Bush election machine employs, I think without at least a moderate amount of restraint, our side won't be able to match their level of solidarity. It is serious enough to settle down and get to work on winning. And like any family under attack, after the battle is over we can get back to internal conflicts.

[Jacobin]

20. Yeah. Like how to drive the country off a cliff

If they hadn't been so "unified" around Smirk when he got his war hard on, he might have had a chance to get re-elected.

[Kanary]

12. Something to ponder.......... please.........

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." Teddy Roosevelt, 1913...

[Jacobin]

17. I'm alerting on that!!

:-)

[Kanary]

26. Thanks, Jacobin........ I'm ready..... bring it on......

~~gigglesnort~~

:toast:

Kanary

[Liberal Veteran]

18. We don't have a president....we have a candidate. We either help him or...

...hinder him.

I am working on help side.

[Jacobin]

22. Who says that sniveling unquestioning worship is "support"

I find that to be a trait that is doomed to create failure.

[Kanary]

23. Y'know, before coming to DU, I was posting that quote

to try to get reich wingers to think.

Now, I'm posting it to try to get Dems to *think*.

You can quibble about "candidate" all you want...... the fact is, that quote expresses what this country is built on. I would hope you would value the foundations of your nation.

Trying to shut people up is NOT patriotic, and not in the spirit of the US.

This is sooo sad, that we're now simulating the other side.......

Kanary

[Kanary]

24. Maybe you can sleep on this one tonight......

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels -- men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."
Dwight David Eisenhower, 34th US President, Republican

[Forkboy]

29. "This is sooo sad, that we're now simulating the other side......."

What's sad is that it's not that new.I've been watching the trend here for almost 3 years.

[Forkboy]

21. Well,it's obvious that you just want more people to die

;-)

[ulysses]

16. a suggestion

We can make a positive change for this nation, but can we PLEASE work on winning this election first?

Maybe it's just me, but doesn't it seem as if a lot of our problems of late have arisen from the idea that we can win elections without putting forward a workable idea for positive change first?

[Kanary]

30. you old radical, you.......

:hi:

Kanary, :toast:

[ulysses]

31. if only I were old

:D :hi:

[Kanary]

33. I said that in the generic sense..... ^_^

Besides, wisdom is supposed to come with age.

~~gigglesnort~~

Kanary

[Pastiche423]

39. You may not be very old, ulysses

But you are wise beyond your years.

[Tosca]

25. Divide and conquer, the Repub credo.

/My feeling is this election is much too important be petulant
/about single pet issues and constantly harp about them.

It's been a real watershed for the Repubs, and Dems better wake up and smell the coffee.

[Crewleader]

46. DEMOCRATIC SOLIDARITY libereal_veteran

:thumbsup: