What the hell is the matter with our soldiers?

[Snoggera]

I know. I know. Support the troops, not the administration that sent them there.

but.

What the fuck is the matter with these people? TORTURING 100's of CHILDREN?

Where is the outrage?

Is everyone in this country INSANE!!!!!

[billbuckhead]

1. Bad leadership

Let's make America, America again.

[kiahzero]

2. Put people in an inhumane environment, they act inhumanely

It's really just that simple.

[Snoggera]

3. I would like to think I wouldn't

but who knows. Maybe I would be a sadistic, insane, uncaring, heartless fucking bastard too.

I honestly don't think so.

Peace! :)

[kiahzero]

12. We all would

It's hard to say, though. Social science seems to indicate that its very hard to keep one's humanity in an inhumane environment... Milgram's study on conformity to authority and the Stanford Prison Experiment are both extreme examples of this.

[Snoggera]

13. I know about the Stanford experiment

but am unfamiliar with Milgram's. Do you know of a site I could read about it and learn? Thank you.

[kiahzero]

18. Good place to start

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I can find more if you're interested.

[Bandit]

51. That isn't true

There are many GIs who flat out refuse to behave in any such manner. I am a witness to that fact. Just because everyone else behaves like a barbarian doesn't mean all will behave that way. Some actually buck the "Norm".

[iconoclastic cat]

4. What? Do you have a link?

I haven't heard about this one.

[Snoggera]

6. Only a local example

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=668288&mesg_id=668288

[0007]

7. Here 'ya go

http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article249696.ece

[Webster Green]

5. Mind control....they are brainwashed.....

Smirky successfully de-humanized the Iraqis in the minds of many Americans. Same tactics Hitler used, but we're not allowed to make that comparison.

[stavka]

8. ...most enlisted come from the bottom of the social barrel.

The all have poor educations; and either (a)no political sense, or (b)an ultra-patriotic-Christian-imperialist moral system going into a machine that is VERY good at molding people.

Most officers start; either as career types - who understand the usefulness of this characteristics and will go far in the Military, or they are just smarter people from the bottom of the social barrel who need the money to go to college from the get go, will do their time and get out, often to manage those they commanded in the military.

There - I said it.

That doesn't mean I want them to die, I support them

PS. Your Parents, and Grandparent - by and large they were drafted, and we were really at war then. I'm talking the post 1973 US military...

Oh, they are really pretty good at killing people too. I think Joe citizen is getting his value out of them.

[landdaddy]

10. Viet Vet

and have said many times that they are acting (reacting) the same in Iraq as in Viet Nam! I'm talking '68, '69 and '70 for me. Remember My Lai? There was so much more than just that! :wow:

[Snoggera]

11. I know it's complicated

and thank you for your service to this country. I just will not, apparently, be able to understand because I haven't been there. I am still hoping for some small enlightenment.

I just finished the novel, Up Country by Nelson DeMille. It wasn't a great novel, but had a lot of food for thought in it.

Has anyone else read this novel?

[burrowowl]

28. Welcome to DU, landdaddy!

:hi:

[BlueCollar]

43. welcome aboard

Welcome to DU...we can always use another veteran in these discussions...

[Redleg]

15. That's a gross generalization and therefore very unfair.

I believe you have done enlisted personnel a great disservice by characterizing them as having poor educations. In the modern Army, more and more enlisted men and women have some college education or have aspirations to attend college after their enlistment.

A former Army officer

[ronabop]

38. I think you missed the irony in your own statements.

Enlisted persons with "some college education" or who have "aspirations to attend college" (no more than a GED or high-school diploma) after service, and who (for the most part), were educated in a failing american public school system, are poorly educated by definition.

If, for example, you had stated that an associates' or bachelor's degree was required to enlist, along with keeping a minimum of a 3.0 GPA in college, that would be a statement asserting that they were moderately educated.

If you asserted that a Master's or PhD degree was required to enlist, then you could assert that they are well educated.

-Bop

edit: thinko

[Redleg]

46. He said they had "poor educations."

I also don't agree with your statement that the public school system is failing.

The Army provides very good technical and tactical training to its soldiers. Is that not a form of education?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the tone of your posts suggests some intellectual snobbery on your part. Enlisted soldiers are not just a bunch of ill educated hicks. Many I served with, even though they had "only" a high school diploma, were bright, competent people.

[ronabop]

62. That's not what I said.

Simple military technical and tactical training doesn't always covers ethics, humanities, the arts, or philosophy (leaving officer training schools out of it).

Of course, I'd rather have my back watched by a guy with only AR training rather than only Sophocles training, but that's not quite the same thing as a guy with AR training and a degree in philosophy, or sociology, guarding the military prisons.

As regards to intellectual snobbery, I said nothing, whatsoever, about intellect. I also did not say they weren't bright, or competent.

The point was education.

Amazingly unintelligent, dull, people can be well educated.
Extremely intelligent, bright, people can be poorly educated.

As far as correlating levels of education with the term 'hicks', again, that is your assumption, not mine.

-Bop

[kayell]

41. Er, Excuse me, are you aware that your prejudices are showing?

This is incredibly classist.

YOu are assuming an awful lot about people who join the military, their motivations, intelligence, criminal tendencies, etc.

While it is undoubtedly true that the military has a lot of recruits who are economically disadvantaged, you are stereotyping what being poor means to an astonishing, even appalling extent.

[stavka]

45. Actually it's incredibly Marxist

I have known dozens who enlisted and probably a hundred ROTC/Service Academy grads.

Only one wouldn't fit my incredibly classist prejudicial observations....

...and for him it was pretty much a social promotion (West Point) and is now a west coast investment banker, choosing to get out in only three years of service during the Bush draw down.

I will never argue that I am not a classest.

[Zen]

9. I dunno, you put a red-neck fake President in charge of a bunch of

red-necks (sorry military, but a high percentage are of that ilk) and what do you expect? I mean, they have a drunken deserter coke-head in charge who can't even speak in complete sentences - where's the confusion??

[Redleg]

16. How the f_ck do you know "a high percentage" are red-necks?

Have you served?

[meisje]

19. and DU'ers with 187 posts are ignorant?

I would have to be stupid to make that kind of generalization.

[Kinkistyle]

14. Whats the matter with our soldier is that they are HUMAN.

Read about

Stanley Milgram's Obedience Experiment
Stanford Prison Experiment
Hannah Arendts "Banality of Evil"

The problem with our soldier is they are human, with human emotions and psychologies and they are young.. so young. Yes, people who torture others are wrong, but the fact is one's environment can affect one's behavior to a great extent.

[Snoggera]

17. I will read those

thank you!

[landdaddy]

23. It's the

caliber of the soldier and his/her feeling of superiority (?) over the lesser foreign national. My experience in Viet Nam, much like I see in Iraq today, was that we muricuns treated the indigenous folks as subhuman. This was basically a white soldiers prejudice showing. Can't ever remember a black or latino soldier showing the same type of behaviour. Young, uneducated, prejudiced, inner city, redneck, poor and basically disposable. Todays soldier has been dumbed down so much that I think they are at the same level as a Viet Nam soldier H.S. dropuot!

[meisje]

20. Where is the proof?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Well, I watched the German video link provided by Kellanved

in the thread in LBN, and although my German is a bit rusty, I could understand that the reports came from UNICEF, the Red Cross, and Amnesty International.

They ended their report by saying that the British government had denied holding any children in custody and that they were "still waiting for a response" from the Pentagon.

[elf]

48. here, sorry no time for translation

transcript
http://www.swr.de/report/archi...

video
http://www.swr.de/report/archi...

(SWR = "Sud West Rundfunk")


unicef
http://www.unicef.org/media/me...


edited: not working anymore sorry again

[ElementaryPenguin]

56. More proof!

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2004_archives/000987.html

Read it and barf.

:puke:

[Jacobin]

22. Lord of the Flies redux

Unsupervised freaked out kids with guns who were told Iraq caused 9/11.

Mix gasoline and fire and guess what? You get an explosion.

[Berserker]

24. stavka

I'm new here but that has to be one of the most stupid opinions I have ever read and take offense to it as a pre 1973 vet.

[Jacobin]

25. Like it or lump it, that's the way it appears to me

Have you read Lord of the Flies?

What's your opinion of what is causing the military folks to go bonkers in Iraq?

[0007]

47. Berserker, a Korean war vet here sez

stavka, appears to be right on

[stavka]

60. Thanks for that pat. I hate being on a deserted Island.

BTW: Something about me -

My father, Korean war era, and cold war Vet with the NSA and Justice Dept.

My Uncle Vietnam Vet

My Brother - Post 1973 Army Vet

My Grandfather-US Citizen, traveled to Canada to fight for HRM, WWI Vet
His Brothers - Did the same, come visit them on the grounds in France

My comments were about the post 1973 "Volunteer" armed forces - and I stand by them.

We have an underclass in this country - and people who would resist doing evil, make terrible soldiers.

Vietnam era draftees were screwed, Vietnam era volunteers were duped, or just ignorant of the facts - often through no fault of their own.

[Cleita]

26. I get crazy if the temperature goes over ninety.

These guys are dealing with up to 120 degrees of desert heat to begin with wearing heavy equipment. They aren't getting the water they need from what I have read. They have no leadership. They are in Hell. I am not defending them. All I'm saying is that the insanity of a war without a clear purpose and lack of leadership can bring out the worst in anybody.

[nomatrix]

37. You know what happens to your brain in that heat and

add to that never ending deployment, vaccinations/shots with combinations known to have side effects, snipers, land mines keeping paranoia levels peaked......

Question....I thought over 50% of Iraq population was under 17 yrs old?

Go see Michael Moore's movie.

[Djinn]

27. So are the SS officers and camp supervisors in Nazi Europe

all releived of of any responsibility for their actions. Is "human nature" an excuse for them.

I don't have a strong opinion on this (how much blame the soldiers deserve not the torture itself obv) but it seems to me that if following orders wasn't an excuse for Nazi's it shouldn't be one for US soldiers either?

[rman]

29. "human nature" is an explanation, not an excuse.

question is, why are those who are blaming the soldiers exclusively, not even mentioning, and thus excusing the leaders?

[Djinn]

35. I don't think anyone is doing that

I've seen plenty "it's all BUsh's fault" type posts/threads in this and other boards. I don't think I've seen a single one suggesting that abuse by the soldiers has nothing to do with military or political leaders

[LiberalManiacfromOC]

30. I don't get it!

How could do something like that possibly cross your mind? I know that war environments cause people to do awful things but honestly, torturing children?

[Oddman]

31. Look at America's addiction to all things violent . . .

We scream and get in an uproar over Janet Jackson's breast for crying out loud. We censor and fine the media for depictions of the human body without clothes. But if we show the human body being mutilated or shot or blown to bits or beaten to a pulp or eaten or abused or tortured it is OK. No fines, no reprimands, no outrage - but god forbid we actually see a breast. How insane are our moral values? It's no wonder we behave like beasts when there is no order or control.



A Pathetic Excuse for a pResident

[progressivebydesign]

53. America's obsession with puritanism..

I completely agree with you. In America, sex is bad and violence is good. We educate our kids through violent "entertainment" and then we wonder why they are so violent.

[Oddman]

54. That's a great point

Violence, humiliation and degradation has become the entertainment of America.
That's why so many violent video games are popular and why "reality" TV has become the behemoth of the media.

[Bush was AWOL]

32. Serious question...

What happened? I visit this site as much as I can, but I have not seen anything on the two shows I watched on CNN tonight (Newnight and Parts of Paula Zahn) or on any article I've read here. Could you post the latest news, please.

[andino]

33. I know that this is asking a lot but...

could someone post links to that children abuse articles (in English please)

Thanks in advance.

[Robbien]

36. The story is being discussed in LBN

some of the translation

Just watched this tv report from Germany....even though there is some footage blanked out due to copyright/licensing reasons, I still listened to the report....

quotes that stuck with me:

From the Int'l Red Cross: At one point they knew that there were 107 children being held

From the Unicef Report: No one from Unicef has been allowed access to these children since July 2003...They are not being given the numbers of children, names or reasons that they are being held...Children aren''t being allowed contact with family members and are not even being charged or the US military refuses to say on what charges any of the children are being held.

From Amnesty International: This breaks Int'l law - they won't tell the names, numbers, charges or allow any visits. When the US Military allowed a "Journalist" visit day, they never allowed access to the children and had a nice "sanitized" tour.

The German Anchor person reporting ends the report by saying that they contacted the British Military contacts and said that they stated that at no time has the British Military in Iraq detained or interrogated children.

He then went on to saying that they are still waiting with no reply from the Pentagon....


the thread is here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x668288#668695

[JSJ]

34. I've posted this link several times tonite...

...but it requires registration. I hope you register. It's for an LA Times article that shows 30% or so of the troops have criminal records before they're recruited. I think that the number is probably closer to 60% (getting a glimpse at a soldier's 'jacket' is just as difficult as learning the truth behind Cheney's energy task force). These troops then go on to commit more crimes while in the military. Which leads me to wonder whether the US gov deliberately recruits from the criminal underclass- you know, for such tasks as torture and sniping (who but criminals would do such things?). Didn't mention the brutal and sadistic home invasions (where children are present) the troops regularly 'perform'.

More and more people are viewing the troops as terrorists. The LA Times article tells us why this view is justified.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-violent1jul01,1,801741.story

[Disturbed]

39. Occupation

A Military Occupation usually involves resistence from the occupied.
All in the country are seen as potential enemies. Soldiers are trained to kill the enemey and to be disdainful of them. All the people captured become the people who may have killed the captors' comrads or seen as wanting to kill them. In such an environment most people succumb to brutality. With approval of the Pres. on down the brutality becomes excused. Step by step the brutality can become more base. Most humans can be molded into this. Some have an easier path to it than others. It cannot be condoned or excused. All involved must be charged with crimes, not only the low enders.

don't you wonder what has happened and is still happening in the at least 24 Secret Prisons?

[JSJ]

40. so you don't think the pre-enlistment CRIMINALITY...

...of at least 30% of the troops- per the LA Times article- could have anything to do with 'the troops'' CRIMES against Iraqi children and their parents?

"...don't you wonder what has happened and is still happening in the at least 24 Secret Prisons?"

Well, after what we've learned so far, it's probably a safe bet that crimes as bad or even worse are occuring in those places.

[Hubert Flottz]

57. RE: A Military Occupation usually involves resistence from the

occupied.

Anyone who didn't see this coming shortly before we invaded Iraq, has never read and understood their history lessons! It's exactly the same as when the German Army invaded and occupied Europe and the USSR! Our CIA operatives and MI people are the mirror image of the SS and GESTAPO during WWII! The other Axis powers did the same things also during WWII!

The problem is, when America bought into Bush's offensive strategy, instead of America's time tested defensive strategy, we crossed a line that we had not crossed before in American history!(except in Viet Nam) We became the invaders and we began to conduct ourselves like the peoples we had fought against for two centuries!

People are not going to just lay down and let Bush or anyone else just roll over them without a fight, as long as they have the weapons to fight back with! Would you? It's why I was so against this war of aggression from the get go! War is brutal and that is a fact of life! Anyone who did not expect and plan for the worst when we became the invader was living in a dream world!

We were lied to and most of us bought it! I hoped I was wrong, but I wasn't!

[kayell]

42. What were the crimes involved?

While the article cites the 30% figure, and and also mentions many andecdotes soldiers with violent crime behavior, it does not indicate what percentage of the actual 30% were convicted for violent crimes. It is quite possible that many were convicted of minor offenses such as drug possesion. We don't actually know from this article. It is written to imply that the offenses are mostly assaults and such, but does not actually offer any statistics that I saw to verify that implication.

One unfortunate truth is that people who join the military are often poor, and have few choices other than the military to climb out of poverty. Poor people get convicted of crimes at a much higher rate than do the "have-mores".

The military certainly does need to control the problem of violent, abusive soldiers, but I see this as another distraction from the issue of a system wide, upper level problem. Can you say SCAPEGOATS?

[JSJ]

44. well, if the 'Times' is citing a 30% figure of criminal involvement...

... within the troops then I have to assume that the cited percentage comprises those who were convicted. The Times couldn't- would they- call them criminal histories unless convictions were there in their, the troops, records.

I liked your point about the poverty of the recruits and how that might be a mitigating factor in the past 'criminality' of the troops. My guess is that many have domestic violence beefs, physical and verbal assaults, some skinhead-type activity, shoplifting, takings by force and the like.

[kayell]

49. The problem is that it is a guess - the article does not tell us that

It implies that the crimes are mostly violent by citing only violent crime cases, but does not offer actual statistics. I am very wary of being misled by andectodes in "news" stories that don't have actual figures. Or like this one, have an actual figure, but don't give you all the figures needed to confirm what they imply (again that word) that figure means.

It is possible that you are correct in your assumption, it is possible you aren't. We can't actually know from the selective statistic they give us.

[JSJ]

61. well, it's a start n/t

[Karenina]

50. What the hell is the matter?

They are being USED AND HORRIBLY ABUSED in a HELLHOLE SITUATION in which they have no business. GET THEM THE CHENEY OUTTA THERE NOW! :argh:

[Cleita]

55. I agree with you Karenina.

Imagine the years of therapy many will have to undergo when they return from Hell and those will be the lucky one.

[Tsiyu]

52. Multi-faceted answer

They are fighting without the proper equipment, gear, or leadership. Some have surely become fed up and don't give a shit.

Many have seen friends blown up. Look at Palestine/Israel. Death begets vengeance begets more death and so on and so on....there is no end to the violence spawned by vindictiveness.

The White House is run by Nazis, and more than a few soldiers will be ( and have been) reporting to us that they killed and tortured innocents and civilians because their commanders told them to do this.

We live in a culture of sexual depravity and violence. These are mainstream pastimes. More people are fans of porn in America ( and we're not talking about healthy erotic images here- we're talking bestiality, gang-rape, necrophilia - sick perversion) than are fans of Major League Baseball. They are merely showing off our "culture" to the world.

Insulting all soldiers is pretty lame. But if it makes you feel better, so be it. Your insults and generalizations won't help anybody nor will they fix the mess our military is in. Put that thinking cap on and delve a bit deeper, huh? Those who make blanket statements about our soldiers are merely indulging in intellectual masturbation, in my opinion. After all, Kerry was once a soldier, wasn't he?

[Hubert Flottz]

58. Kick::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

:kick: Bush out of the Army in November!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Indoctrinated to kill without question.

It's really rather simple. First, dehumanize the enemy. When I was in the marines, the "enemies" were the Russians, the Chinese and the Cubans. Later, S.E. Asians, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians.

The military, in it's indoctrination, never uses the word "people". It is "the enemy", "communists", "terrorists", "targets". It is left to the troops to add, "Gooks", "Slopes", "Slants", "Ragheads", and all the other appellations that reduce people to hostile "things".

Add to that the the need of adolescents to be "tough", especially in the eyes of their peers, the absolute terror of being thought soft, throw in a few free-fire-zones, and you have a recipe for murder, rape, brutality, and other pastimes that make decent men into monsters. Some vigorous flagwaving and hyper-patriotism is icing on the cake.

[LibertyorDeath]

63. There is NO EXCUSE There is NO REASON

Bad leadership

It's really fucking hot over here

and I've got shit for gear

Poorly Educated

Stanford Prison Experiment

We All Would ( speaking for yourself there KIA)

Shitty morale

War is dehumanizing

Young easily influenced trained to kill kill kill.

They have been Torturing Children could you possibly get anymore

Sadistically Depraved than this.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE

ASK the parents of these Children what they think about the list above

THERE IS NO EXCUSE NON EVER TO TORTURE A CHILD

THERE IS NO REASON NON TO TORTURE A CHILD

Yeah I Tortured Children but just give me a chance to explain then you'll understand.

NO I WON'T

[JSJ]

64. put the blame on the troops who do this- then work upward

Squeeze those nazis like an aggressive prosecutor would. Then send them to the stockades for ten years or more. Then go after their commanders right on up to the Red (with blood) House.