Another Utah moment: "Go to (our) church if you want to keep your jobs."

[playahata1]

http://166.70.44.66/2004/Jul/07072004/utah/181593.asp

Faith-based coercion?

[tom_paine]

1. Sure. Evil is on the rise in Totalitarian Imperial Amerika

It certainly is of the Amerikan flavor of evil. Religious coercion and bigotry.

It will get worse, though, because these are the Good Old Days.

[Az]

2. Reading Under the Banner of Heaven right now

Utah is a scary scary place. Faith based coercion? You don't know the half of it.

[SaveElmer]

3. You're not tellin the whole story !

These people work for an LDS church owned company. Church attendance is apparently a condition of employment. It's not my cup of tea but I don't really see anything wrong with this.

It would be different if it were say IBM telling people they had to go to church...

[donsu]

4. do they pay taxes?

nt

[SaveElmer]

7. That's a good question

I think that is a gray area and I'm not sure what the rules are there. I would think if they paid taxes they would have to follow civil rights guidelines. I don't know if this company falls under that category.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Googled... it's a chain of thrift stores. (nt)

[pschoeb]

5. So if IBM required after work worship Of Thomas J. Watson Sr. as God

That would be OK?

[SaveElmer]

6. No

IBM is a publicly traded company and are forced to follow civil rights guidelines. Last time I looked IBM was not a recognized religious institution.

Would you say that in order to be hired as a Mormon bishop one would have to be Mormon? Just as I wouldn't expect a catholic school to hire non-catholic teachers. Religious institutions operate under a different set of guidelines...as it should be.

There is a gray area however, and I don;t know if this Mormon based comany would be included as I don't really know alot about them. But if they paid taxes I think that this kind of requirement could not be enforced.

[playahata1]

24. Well, Catholic schools accept non-Catholic students,

whose parents send them there because of the supposedly superior quality of instruction. Are those kids expected to attend Mass? To convert to Catholicism?

[SaveElmer]

26. No...but

No, they do not have to convert, but the church accepts them because they hope they will. It is the churches decision to accept non-Catholic students, not the Governments. Catholic schools would be well within their rights to accept only catholic students. But, having gone to catholic school myself for two (miserable) years, everyone, Catholic or not, was required to go to church during the week.

[Malva Zebrina]

50. probably not outright, but every classroom certainly has a crucifix

with the bleeding of the blood, and suffering Christ behind the teacher's desk or around the clock which is firmly screwed to the wall above the teacher's desk, and when prayers are being said at the beginning of each day, to the Catholic god, those who are not belivers in the Catholic religion are sent out to hall to sit there until the prayer is over.

Uh huh--and if they do not want to sit outside the classroom door? What then? And we are to think that we, the taxpayers, are to contribute our money to teach this religion to others who perhaps do NOT believe in it and do not WANT to be taught it, but are attending this school to avoid the chaos in the public schools, which do not treat their little "geniuses" properly and recognize them as little geniuses.

Therefore they must enrole their "little geniuses" in a private school where their " little genius" will be respected as the genius he or she is {because by doing so, the school recognizes that the parents who have a child that is simply performing on the "average" level will believe that they indeed do have a genius that is above those black kids from families or parents that do not give a damn and wow, y ou get the tuition for doing so}, even though the genius of others less monitarily endowed, is not recognized at all and even though those others with a genius far beyond the white little, better endowed financially kid, are not recognized.

And we know that the religion is definately attempting to interfere with the Constitution of the United States of American by trashing and treating with contempt, it's separation of church and state'

When one really looks at that and contemplates the tug of war between a secular state that is dedicated in it's Constitution, to protecting the rights of all the people by protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority and by succinctly stating that the state is not connected in any way shape or form to any one religion and that the incursion of any one religions into the laws of the state is tyranny and is a forcing of others to comply

Well, you can see where that is going.

Either you accept the public school system and accept that your child will be exposed to the ethnic soup and possible be better educated because of it, or you decide you do not want your precious little genius, as parents tend to think of their own progeny, to be impeded by those awful factions of society that will only hold back his or her "genius"

So, you send them to a private school--it may be a Catholic school or it may be home schooling, in which case, the mother or the father doing the home schooling, needs to be totally committed and able to stay home to do the job.

and once again--the poor cannot do that. They are tied into the public school system and they are lacking and suffering becuase of what has happened to our ethics re our public education system

[DBoon]

28. You mean they don't?

Did this go out with the white starched shirts?

IBM sure has changed! ;)

[Bozita]

10. If that's a for-profit company, I've got a problem with it ... bigtime

[SaveElmer]

13. Yeah I agree

If they are a profit-making enterprise, and in particular if they pay taxes which they shouldn't have to if they are run by a religious institution for its benefit...then I agree it is a problem

[SaveElmer]

14. They are a non-profit

Based on the model of Goodwill industires. Apparently it was established to alleviate the high unemployment among church members.

[Bozita]

15. Religion trumps the Bill of Rights ... again

[SaveElmer]

16. I respectfully disagree

From what I have read this company was set up by the church a way to aid church members. It is a non-profit religiously based institution like the Salvation Army, and is modeled on the structure used by Goodwill Industries. As such they are perfectly within their rights to institute religious requirements. I'm not defending the Mormon church here specifically...all churches have this right.

[Bozita]

18. You're right. But it's the same argument that was used to prevent teachers

working in Chicago Catholic schools from forming a union.

[SaveElmer]

20. Yeah I know...sometimes it has bad results

But in my opinion getting government involved with church policy would be alot worse!

[King Coal]

19. I can't tell the whole story. If I told what I really knew

and thought about the Mormons I would get kicked off of here. Utah: Where the separation between church and state is about 1.5 blocks.

[SaveElmer]

21. Oh I know...

Believe me I'm no fan of the Mormon church...though they do have an interesting history and were severely persecuted before their move to Utah. They obviously have no trouble trying to mix government and religion!!!

[King Coal]

25. Severely persecuted?

They were run off for trying to get sisters and daughters into plural marriages, because Joseph Smith needed some strange stuff.

[SaveElmer]

27. Read up on their history

They were run out, violently in many cases from New York, Illinois and Missouri. That's why they chose Utah even though it's land was barely adequate for farming, to get away from this type of persecution. Once in Utah, and after the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo was signed and they came under U.S. juridiction, they were denied the benefits to free government land that most other settlers moving west were given.

They did believe in plural marriage for some, but this was a minority of believers. That belief alone did not warrant the treatment they received. There was much to admire about the early Mormon settlers. They were able to take some of the worst hardscrabble land in the west and create a thriving community.

The current church is not something to be admired however.

[King Coal]

32. Oh, I know their history, believe me.

I have read about it extensively. Joseph Smith was a con artist's con artist. These people aren't patriots and never have been. With all due respect, I think you should read their true history.

[Az]

34. Reading a book on them right now

Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. Truly chilling stuff.

[mitchum]

52. "Joseph Smith was a con artist's con artist" Truer words were never...

spoken.
Nothing but a land grab scheme with a piecemeal mumbo-jumbo overlay.

[Az]

33. I am not sure their success is something to be honored

Perserverance does not always come from self. There are whips made from things other than leather that can drive a people to do back breaking work. The fact that they survived is no testimony to the veracity of their beliefs. It is only a testimony to the fact that they did survive.

Now while the reaction of those that sought to oppress them may well have simply been one sect reacting with hatred to another sect it does not change the fact that there are some very real problems with any religion that is as extreme in its control of its people as Mormonism is.

Incidently polygamy is not dead. It has been removed from the mainstream church but a fundimentalist sect exists in North America that has a very strong and distant reach. It is part of the original teachings of Mormanism and was predominate for a great deal of time. The Mormon leadership has gone to very great extremes to hide evidence of this practice and distance themself from it. It is this very issue that caused the schism in the church that sent the fundimentalist Mormons scattering to the wind.

Mormons and other dogmatic authoratarian systems represent the single greatest threat to freedom and democracy in the world. It takes an idea to kill an idea. Bombs and weapons pale in comparison to the toll that dogmatic authority can reak upon freedom.

When you can define what a people are to believe and back it up with real consequences for not behaving (ie shunning, excommunication, loss of property) you have created a true tyranny.

While we must continue to respect a person's right to believe whatever they may it is foolish to turn a blind eye to systems of thought which will appear in the flotsam of our society that may take their own path to overturning ours. A free and tolerant society has a particular weakness to this manner of threat. Because we embrace diversity we cannot directly confront a threat the by way of its beliefs threatens other's freedom.

Colorado City Arizona collects $6 in welfare for every dollar it pays to the federal government. This is because of the vast number of single mothers living in this remote city. There are so many single mothers in Colorado City because they do not file as wives under the federal law despite being in polygamous marraiges. Most are given to elder members of the community at age 13-14. Although this constitutes rape few are ever prosecuted. This is fundimentalist Mormonism. And it is a rapidly growing sect.

[SaveElmer]

36. I do not admire the Mormon church as it is...

I do however admire the tenacity of the early Mormon settlers...particularly those that escaped from the sweatshops in England and managed to make a life for themselves in Utah.

There is no doubt that they were victims of extreme intolerance during the early part of their existence. That they were able to overcome this and survive, when many other communitarian movements at the time did not is admirable.

From the reading I have done it seems as though even though polygamy was part of their creed, it's actual practice was pretty limited.

I'll take a look at the Krakeaur (sp) book,...is this the same guy who wrote "Into Thin Air" ?

[Az]

37. Protestants and Mormons

Its curious that although both the Protestants and the Mormons fled their lands because of intoloerance when they arrived they created forms of intolerance that would have made their former antagonists blanch. I would put to you that the intolerance they fled from may have been caused by their own intolerance. I would not feel much sympathy for a group of Klan members being made to flee a community because of intolerance towards them.

Remember each group will write their own history with them cast as the protagonist. They will cast those that are against them as evil and hate filled. Be wary who's eyes you view a history through. This is why viewing an objective history is so vital.

[SaveElmer]

40. I have a problem comparing Mormons to the Klan

What I have read have been histories of westward migration. My impression is that these Mormons were the victims of intolerance in these cases.

[Az]

57. Not defending the acts of those that drove them away

It may well be the book I am reading right now as well. But I am having trouble finding sympathy for a religious sect that maintains some of the more draconian social strictures in the western hemisphere.

[King Coal]

60. I like the way you write.

You have a gentle way of telling the truth. I consider Mormons to be un-American in the way they discriminate based on religion. I know first-hand how this works. And what makes it so intolerable for me is the way the whole she-bang is such a made-up lie. Maybe all religions are such, but this one is so stupid that it would be comical, if it weren't so damaging. I hope I am not insulting anyone, but I am being honest. I do not mean this to be personal, but sometimes you have to take a stand.

[Sterling]

58. Didn't they murder a bunch of American Indians?

I thought I watched a doc on that at one time.

[King Coal]

59. I believe it is called the Mountain Meadow Massacre.

They used Indians to kill a group of what they believed to be Confederate Raiders.

[AirAmFan]

22. What if taxpayers were subsidizing the wages. Would that change

your opinion?

The news item refers to the workers as "trainees". I strongly suspect that means the jobs are financed by temporary government wage subsidies. Why else would some employees at thrift stores be called "trainees" rather than "new employees" or some other expression.

Typically, government "training" programs offer selected companies half the wage bill for six months when they hire certain classes of workers (women on welfare, for example). That gives the company an incentive to find some excuse to get rid of most workers after six months, so their wage costs won't go up.

Here ard the first two paragraphs of the article:

'Soul searching: Trainees employed at the LDS Church-owned Deseret Industries received a letter from the bishop of the Pioneer Ward in Ogden recently, letting them know that if they were not in church for the service's entire three-hour duration every Sunday, they could lose their jobs.

"This may sound harsh to those who don't attend regularly," the letter said. "But it will do you some good as well as demonstrate to me that you are serious about your future."'

[SaveElmer]

23. If they were receiving government money...

That would definitely change my view...but I doubt they are...the term trainee is too generic to come to that conclusion.

[Az]

35. Government money

The Fundimentalist Mormons of Colorado City Arizona look for ways to "bleed the beast". Consider that Colorado City collects $6 in welfare to ever $1 dollar it pays federal taxes. It does this because of the huge number of single mothers living in its boarders. There are so many single mothers because polygamy is not recognised by federal law so they do not register wives after the first marriage. The typical bride is often 13-14 years old on their wedding night.

To be sure the fundimentalsit Mormons are distinct and seperate from the official Mormons. In fact if you ask them they do not exist. But they are there. They seek ways to abuse the system as they believe the federal government is the enemy. And they are growing in number.

[bingoboingo]

38. Pretty sure it's legal

If they agreed to those terms as a condition of their employment then integrity would dictate that they abide by it. If it is a new rule then I say challenge it.

[Redleg]

8. Another bunch of crap in Utah, my old home state.

I don't miss that religious bullshit either.

[Hubert Flottz]

11. How many teenaged wives would they get if they went?

Are they hiring any dirty ole men?

[Cleita]

12. Utah is a theocracy run by the Mormon Church.

It's always been that way. My husband, an immigrant, once sought work in Utah back in the fifties when he first came here. He found out quickly enough that if he didn't have a reference from his bishop, he wouldn't be given consideration for a job. Oh, yes, the bishop had to be a Church of Latter Day Saints bishop, not a Catholic one.

If you think it was against the law the, be advised that it wasn't. Many of the laws against discrimination in the workplace that are taken for granted today came from the revolution of the sixties. Yet in Utah, they are conveniently ignored or stepped around. I am amazed that the U. S. Supreme Court ruled that this janitor had to attend church to keep his job. Now in the past couple of decades, there has been an immigration into Utah of a non-Mormon underclass, who do the agricultural and minimum wage jobs, that no Americans want to do, like in California. Does this mean they have to become Mormons?

[FreeState]

17. Deseret Industries is like Goodwill stores

The church uses it to give employment to people that are not finding jobs- most of the employees that work there are mentally disabled. They use the stores to train them in a craft (like making bed mattresses and frames) and give them job skills.

Like most things in the Church you mush PAY PRAY AND OBEY. If you don't well then you are not helped out. Even if you get church welfare and you are a member of the church you MUST agree to go to church if you are inactive-- er excuse me they now call it being "less active".

Yes the DI is tax exempt- its a charity as well as an official church job training facility.

PS they make great beds- I got one they made for about $200 8 years ago- still in great shape and the most comfortable bed I have ever used.

[cap]

30. this is preying on people who don't have a choice.

eom

[DBoon]

29. Utah is a "bad hair" state

Read the rest of the article. Apparently the minerals in the water are really bad for your hair.

This might explain something.

[rniel]

31. Have you ever drank the beer in Utah!

First of all we want to go into Hard Rock Cafe and have a drink. Found out we can't sit in the dining area if we're drinking so went into the bar and then we found out we have to be members to get a drink. We were sponsored there by an existing member. Then the beer I ordered tasted like 25% beer and 75% water, hardly drinkable. I am not very interested in living there for sure.

[GoneOffShore]

47. Tales of Mormons

told to me by a friend who lived in Utah.
He used to date Mormon girls, and told me some hair raising tails (sic) about them.

[TeeYiYi]

39. All you ever wanted to know about Mormonism . . .

. . . you can find at the website of Jerald and Sandra Tanner.

http://www.utlm.org/

TYY

[AirAmFan]

41. Just as I suspected: $4000 a year in taxpayer funds per "trainee"

These funds were allocated for job training as part of the 1996 "welfare reform". A lifetime limit of 36 months on families getting cash assistance for poor children went into effect almost a hundred months ago. The Bush White House "Faith-Based Initiative" made it much easier for religious organizations to get this money.

Also, 60 percent of the employees of nonprofit Deseret are not Mormons (see http://www.lds.org/newsroom/showpackage/0,15367,3899-1--19-2-436,00.html ) Since 6,000 people a year rotate through these jobs, the Mormons could be raking in more than $20 million in annual taxpayer funds with this activity.

So TAXPAYER funds formerly used to feed and clothe poor children now go into forcing people to choose between accepting religious propaganda for three hours a week or finding scarce jobs elsewhere.

From http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bkofoed/lords.txt

"Church On-the-Job Training Centers:... Deseret Industries Manufacturing and the various Deseret Industries stores are an excellent source for work experience and a passage way into permanent employment...

If you are working with a family which has been receiving public assistance and wishes to move to full-time employment, the DWS program called E-1 may be just the ticket. Employers who agree to participate are reimbursed $500 a month for the first six months and $1000 for the rest of the first year, as well as being provided with supervisory training and technical assistance to encourage them to hire people with limited work experience....Even if your job seeker is not a public assistance recipient eligible for E-1, DWS has other on-the-job training opportunities for low income persons. Ask about them at any DWS office...."

[FreeState]

43. 1996 "welfare reform" - not used by the LDS

The Mormon church does not receive money from the government for the DI programs. Yes the programs are available to them - however they use their own money. The Church prides itself in NOT using government money for anything. But they do get the tax exempt status:)

Also it is note worthy that the original article of this thread was what a Bishop (like a priest in a regular church) sent the statement to trainies, members of his congregation- so how would non-members be told that they have to go to church if they were not attending the church in the first place???

[AirAmFan]

44. Do you have any references to support your assertion?

I provided two URLs FROM THE MORMON CHURCH ITSELF! at odds with what you're saying. Your position certainly was valid some years ago. The LDS.ORG link I included says Deseret Industries is "self-sustaining", but I took that to mean it was not a drain on church revenues from other sources. And the link says also that DI has been around since 1938. Your statement well may have been quite accurate ten years ago and earlier.

Still, though highly unlikely, what you're saying yet COULD be true today. But I'd need to see extremely detailed Deseret Industries budgets before I'd concede your point. You are trying to prove an implausible negative. You are saying that the Mormons are leaving tens of millions of dollars in available government funds on the table, while the White House is trying to maximize religious use of Federal tax revenues, and the unmet needs of poor children are skyrocketing.

[FreeState]

45. Here is what the church said

http://www.mormonnews.com/010727/T1NewsBrief028.shtml

Concord New Hampshire Stake President Bryson Cook told the Concord Monitor that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would never apply for funding under US President Bush's faith-based initiative because of the Church's desire for self-sufficiency.

[AirAmFan]

46. Thanks for the link, but, sorry, I'm not persuaded, not even a little

Your link is a statement made by a Mormon church official in New Hampshire in July 2001.

I'm not sure, but I think what he said is accurate. I don't believe the Mormons ever applied for any funding under the Bush Faith-Based legislation that passed the House that month. My memory could be failing me, but I believe that, like many far-right enactments of the House during the past three years, Bush's Faith-based legislation died in the Senate. Instead, Dubya used his executive powers to enable payoffs of the religious right, and appointed John Diulio to head up an Office of Faith-Based Initiatives in the White House.

Whether the 2001 bill became law or not, maybe Mormons in New Hampshire would have needed that new legislation to get welfare money. But Mormons are so powerful in Utah that no additional legislation would have been needed. Don't you agree?

[FreeState]

48. Nope I don't agree

As a former Mormon I have many gripes with the religion- however the Church is ran from Utah, every church building gets its funds from SLC. There is no local financing at all. Tithing monies are sent to Salt Lake. Then the church sends the money out the were they feel it needs to be. You wont see a financial report from the church either because they don't release them. The only way would be to look up the funds from the federal government (they have to tell you were these funds went).

My father worked in LDS Church finances for years so I know what I am talking about. The church has its own welfare system, its own insurance company etc. They are 100% self sufficient. They do not take government hand outs (except for tax exempt status) and they discourage its members from applying for Governement welfare.

[AirAmFan]

51. I don't doubt what you say WAS true in your father's heyday

And thanks for sharing your personal knowledge of Deseret Industries.

I was really impressed by the depth of the "Storehouse of Specialists" manual I googled at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bkofoed/lords.txt . It sounds as though the Mormons really acknowledge the presence of poor.people in their midst, and try to meet what they consider to be thier real needs.

That has to stand in contrast to what I've seen on the streets of the major cities I've lived in. Well-dressed people step over homeless families on the streets, maybe even on their way to church, with no thought whatsoever of helping.

I've never been to Salt Lake City. Did you see as many homeless people on the streets there as you've seen elsewhere?

[FreeState]

53. I'm fairly certain

I'm fairly certain the church has not changed its ways in being anti-government $$$. However, you never know. I wish they gave out annual reports, but the church does not do that, so with out finding the government documents we will never know.

I have not lived in SLC for about 5 years. However, yes they have homeless. I saw lots of them downtown. I would go to the gay bars there (yes they have them too, about 10 at last count) and there was a homeless shelter on the same street as the most popular bar. I live in San Diego now and we have a lot of homeless here, more than SLC. I'm sure its because we have good weather year round- kind of a good place to be homeless if you have to be homeless, IMO.

One thing that most people miss is that the Church takes care of its own before all others. Yes the DI has non-members working for them. The church will help a non-member if asked to, but all the social services they have are geared toward members and attracting future members. Don't let the pretty little stories fool you:)

When I was a missionary we were encouraged to do 7 hours of service projects a week. These projects were usually encouraged to be done for less active members/and/or/members. I don't think in the two years I was there we were ever encouraged to help for helps sake- it was always a possible new member motive. Thats not to say they don't help people, they do, usually there own.

I use to deliver food to members that needed food. To get the food they had to do the following: 1) promise to attend church, 2) work for the church in the warehouse where the food was stored for so many hours, 3) Pay tithing (yes even if they did not have the money) and 4) not be receiving food stamps or government help.

Okay this is getting longer than I wished LOL.... hope that helped to shed some light on the Church. Its estimated they give away about 1% of their revenues every year.

[AirAmFan]

54. How you might prove me wrong using GUIDESTAR.ORG

FreeState--

I suddenly remembered that most IRS approved tax exempt charities must file an annual Form 990, and that many of the filled-out forms are posted on the Internet. I went to http://www.guidestar.org , an information webpage for potential donors to thousands of different organizations.

I typed "Deseret" into the search box in the upper left corner and got 13 "hits". But none of them was Deseret Industries. Maybe you can think of other names to try. Where does DI fit on the LDS organization tree?

I've seen many PDFs of Forms 990, but not in the past few years. Just to refresh my memory I clicked on a "Deseret" educational charity and could have seen a copy of its latest Form 990 had I registered for a free users account. Had I gone further, I would have looked for some breakdown of revenues by source and hoped to see Federal and State grants from tax revenues in the details.

Are you saying that LDS-run schools refuse Federal and State tax revenues? Don't Mormons favor vouchers? I was a few clicks away from delving into those questions.

But I've got to do something else now. Maybe you or another DUer will move this research forward while I'm gone. And maybe I'll get back to it later. Or maybe not.

[FreeState]

55. Wow thanks

I will keep looking at the page and see what I come up with, so far all I have found was this :

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
c/o LDS Foundation
50 E North Temple St
Salt Lake City, UT 84150


EIN: 23-7300405
This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church. It is a 501(c)(03) public charity. Information in this report was supplied by the nonprofit organization within the last two years.

I will try all the names I can think of and ask for some help on a exmormon board I know of....

[FreeState]

56. Okay here is what I found

The Church has its own zip code so it was easy to search;) It has a headquarters building that everything official is run out of, so unless they are hiding something here are the results:

Every single one of them says they are not required to file a report because they are church. I will keep trying some names to see what comes up, but so far its looking like we wont find anything....

1)   The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Salt Lake City, UT 84150
LDS Foundation, a department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was created to correlate, encourage, facilitate and properly acknowledge and receipt charitable contributions other than tithing and fast offerings to the Church and its related charitable organizations.


2)   LDS SOCIAL SERVICES
SALT LAKE CTY, UT 84150


3)   LDS SOCIAL SERVICES OF MASSACHUSETTS
SALT LAKE CTY, UT 84150


4)   LDS SOCIAL SERVICES OF NEW YORK
SALT LAKE CTY, UT 84150


5)   LDS SOCIAL SERVICES OF VIRGINIA
SALT LAKE CTY, UT 84150


6)   CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDING BISHOP OF CHRCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LDS
SALT LAKE CTY, UT 84150


7)   Groberg Holbrook Genealogical Organization
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84150


8)   Latter-Day Saint Charities
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84150


9)   NAUVOO RESTORATION INCORPORATED
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84150

[AirAmFan]

61. The Mormon Church is taking EVERY CENT. Don't believe the hype!

From http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon47.html

"Sex Case May Pry Open Finances of LDS Church

The Salt Lake Tribune/July 17, 2001 By Elizabeth Neff

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is fighting to keep its finances confidential in an Oregon lawsuit seeking more than $1.5 billion in damages from the church. ... Church attorneys {said} the church is able to pay punitive damages of $162 million, or twice the amount of the largest punitive damages award in Oregon history. But they say {{a} request that the church produce any documents it has detailing income and financial interests, including tithing revenue and property values, goes too far.

The church, which STOPPED RELEASING FINANCIAL INFORMATION IN 1959, contends such disclosures would violate its First Amendment right to operate free from government entanglement....

In 1999, authors Richard and Joan Ostling estimated the church's assets at nearly $30 billion in Mormon America: The Power and the Promise. They expanded on research by John Heineman and Anson Shupe, authors of "The Mormon Corporate Empire: The Eye-Opening Report on the Church and Its Political and Financial Agenda," published in 1985."

[MaryH]

42. Utah is a Country Unto Itself

Just ask anyone who has ever lived there. The Church runs everything. And no one ever says much.

You can't get a job, find a place to live, anything, if you aren't Mormon (and a church going Mormon at that).

I live there for 5 years. It is kind of like living in another universe. One where polygamy still exists. Where Church buildings dalways sit right across the parking lot from the public schools, where every public convocation begins with a prayer.

[Dookus]

49. If attending a 3-hour church service on Sundays

is a requirement of employment, they should be forced to pay overtime to all employes required to attend.