Did Moore make it up?

[ifyouwereme]

I asked a friend to come watch the F 911 with me and he fumed that Moore is a hoax because he staged parts of Bowling with Columbine, for ex. the beginning he stepped into that bank to open an account and get a gun as a token. Is it true that was staged? I mean my friend is very liberal, but he seemed to be absolutely sure of this. He even said Moore admitted to it himself. Anybody heard about this? I haven't watched F911 yet, but if I don't know the truth to Bowling with Columbine, I can't help but be skeptical of F 911 too.
Anyone?

[HEyHEY]

1. Well, staging it has little to do with the truth

If there was a bank there giving out free guns with an account then it doesn't matter if he scoped it out first, the truth is there, beyond that, it's just a comedy bit.
My only real problem is that I felt he portrayed Canadians as something we aren't.

[genius]

8. In what way were Canadians misportrayed?

Are you not as peaceful as he indicated or do you own fewer guns or watch fewer violent movies?

[HEyHEY]

12. His version of a Canadian ghetto was bullshit

As was the locking the door thing.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[HEyHEY]

6. haha

:-)

[Jim Sagle]

11. I won't.

[LeighAnn]

3. I see you're new around here!

:)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Have you watched Bowling For Columbine?

That would be a good start.

[ifyouwereme]

15. 'course

I did

[genius]

5. He just got permission to film it

[HEyHEY]

9. Even if he did tell them "Here's what I'm going to do"

Who cares? There was nothing untruthful about it, that's exactly what would happen in that bank if you wanted an account.

[ifyouwereme]

14. don't get me wrong

I love Moore. He's doing what millions of other ought to be doing. I'm just curious about it. anybody with any links?

[ifyouwereme]

19. so

you say it was a true situation? Or was the bank teller an actor or what???

[Lestatdelc]

50. True situation

The bank teller was not an actor, the bank exists, they do give out guns to new accounts which are opened with a specified balance or above (I believe it was $1000 IIRC), he really did open an account, he really did get a gun (after a waiting period for the background check to clear).

[oasis]

7. Bush in the schoolroom with his doe-eyed look. Yup, he made that up too.

[ifyouwereme]

10. answer

so was it staged or not

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[sandnsea]

16. Does the bank hand out guns? n/t

[Lestatdelc]

49. "Stagged" is a misleading frame

Was it "staged" as in "faked"...?

No

Was it "staged" in that he (Moore) found out about a bank that offered a gun when you open a new account and then went about filming him opening an account to see if he would indeed get a gun...?

Yes

But that is like saying is going to see if they really do have a thing called "Space Mountain" at Disneyland, then going there and filming you getting in line to ride "Space Mountain" is "staged".

It is an irrelevant and badly framed question.

Is there really a bank that was giving out guns to new accounts... yep.

Did Michael Moore really open an account to see if they would give him a gun... yep

Did they really give him a gun for opening the account... yep

The only way it was "staged" was he got permission to film first, and that there was actually a waiting period for the background check to clear which was edited out for time sake.

[sendero]

57. "staged"...

... as in a dramatization of real events? Who the fuck cares?

[HEyHEY]

17. Also - tell your friend

to use his head....if any of that was truly staged...something like a bank handing out guns....it would be easy to findout and be all over the news.

[MI Cherie]

34. There was a bank

in Michigan that was giving out guns to customers — like offering a toaster or cooler to lure in new customers.

There was a minimum deposit, and gun ownership requirements had to be met along with a background check. It was legal. No idea if they still do.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[ifyouwereme]

22. I don't

get what you're saying. So what are you saying?? I'm just repeating my friend, just curious.

[lazarus]

20. facts

First, in any debate, the person making the claim is required to back it up. Unless he can provide a link, he's lying.

You can always counter by saying that you heard Bush admit he fucked a goat in the Oval Office, and require him to come up with proof that it didn't happen.

As for facts:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/mikeinthenews/index.php?id=25

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/statements/

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com


But none of this matters if your 'friend' can't back up his claims.

[ifyouwereme]

23. well

I want to believe you instead of my friend. that's why I'm curious.

[lazarus]

32. the difference here

concerns the burden of proof.

Moore showed himself receiving a gun in exchange for opening an account.

No lawsuits were brought by the bank, claiming he had staged it. Indeed, Moore has followed up by insisting it really happened, and that the only staging was to have the camera crew there.

Anyone claiming that Moore is lying needs to come up with evidence, or shut up. It's that simple.

[DieboldMustDie]

21. "The Truth:

In the spring of 2001, I saw a real ad in a real newspaper in Michigan announcing a real promotion that this real bank had where they would give you a gun (as your up-front interest) for opening up a Certificate of Deposit account. They promoted this in publications all over the country – "More Bang for Your Buck!"

There was news coverage of this bank giving away guns, long before I even shot the scene there. The Chicago Sun Times wrote about how the bank would "hand you a gun" with the purchase of a CD. Those are the precise words used by a bank employee in the film.

When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine" – that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000 – and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?") – which I am filling out here for the first time – the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database—which includes all federally approved gun dealers—lists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922).

Within 10 minutes, the "OK" came through from the firearms background check agency and, 5 minutes later, just as you see it in the film, they handed me a Weatherby Mark V Magnum rifle (If you'd like to see the outtakes, click here).

And it is that very gun that I still own to this day. I have decided the best thing to do with this gun is to melt it down into a bust of John Ashcroft and auction it off on E-Bay (more details on that later). All the proceeds will go to The Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence to fight all these lying gun nuts who have attacked my film and make it possible on a daily basis for America's gun epidemic to rage on."

-- Michael Moore

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

[ifyouwereme]

25. Thank!!

Cheers to Michael.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[ifyouwereme]

26. be

more tolerant, you know which movie I'm talkin about

[Pale_Rider]

27. Fool me once ...

Jon Stewart's take ...
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/bush_-_fool_me_once.ram

But seriously, go see the movie and do the research on the internet. Bush deserved to be impeached and do jail time. As one liberal-hating, ultra-conservative put it in an Usenet newsgroup, "* should be hung for treason".

BTW: The only thing staged from what I heard was about the bank rifle offer is that Mikey had to wait the next day or so to pick-up the gun. The point was still valid.

[Fescue4u]

31. just curious..

"The point was still valid. "

Exactly what was the point of the bank scene? See my post down below.

Trying to figure out what the big deal was.

[Pale_Rider]

38. Banks giving away free offers ...

... when opening an account typically amounted to toasters, microwave ovens, and other sundry appliances. Somehow, Mikey stumbled on this one bank that was giving away a rifle. Don't know about the banks in your parts, but in my parts ... it just don't happen that banks gives away rifles. Typically guns and banks usually don't mix. Bowling for Columbine is about how persuasive guns are in our society and culture.

In Mikey's own words ...

When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine" – that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000 – and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?") – which I am filling out here for the first time – the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database—which includes all federally approved gun dealers—lists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922).

Within 10 minutes, the "OK" came through from the firearms background check agency and, 5 minutes later, just as you see it in the film, they handed me a Weatherby Mark V Magnum rifle (If you'd like to see the outtakes, click here).

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

[Fescue4u]

44. It is unusual. But so what?

Actually banks and guns do mix...on a daily basis for most all.

People making cash deposits frequently carry guns. Banks frequently have armed guards and when cash is transported between banks, its done in armored cars driven by men with guns.

After a bank is robbed, a man with a gun is almost always stationed in the lobby for a few weeks afterwards to assure customers.

In fact, in many anti-gun areas, to get a CCW you must show that you need it to protect money (on the way to the bank), protection of ones life is rarely a good enough reason (i.e. NYC, and NJ for starters)

I find the banks promotion very innovative. I wish my bank would do something like this.

[Ronnie]

59. ...how persuasive guns are in our society and culture.

How true. How sad.

[theoceansnerves]

28. i don't think your friend

is very liberal.

[MissAnnThrope]

29. Your Friend...

... Spends too much time listening to his Freeper friends. They truly have a hard on for Michael Moore.

They also get the facts wrong when they go on about him, as they've never bothered to watch any of the movies. For instance, in "Bowling For Columbine" Moore makes the point there are far more guns in Canada than there are in the United States, but not nearly as much gun violence. I've seen more than one Freeper assert over there that Moore says in the movie that there are far fewer guns in Canada. They believe what they want to believe and hear what they want to hear.

I'd suggest you see F911, take notes if you must and then research what you see. That way, if you do it yourself, instead of letting your Freeper friends tell you how to think, you'll be on the road to no longer being a robot with no brain of your own. Just don't use partisan sources for your research.

[Fescue4u]

30. Bigger question is SO WHAT?

Whats the big deal over a bank giving out guns?

Would a criminal really give a bank $1,000, submit id, submit to a background check, fillout the forms...then use said gun to rob the bank (presumable of $1,000 deposit)????

bank routinely hire people with guns to guard money, and people with guns routinely go to banks with money.

Its really a non issue except for those with unrealistic fears of inaminate objects

[MissAnnThrope]

37. Excellent Point!

You'd have to be a complete moron to try to rob a bank or commit any crime with a gun registered to you. It's way too easy to trace the crime back to you. Not to mention, you have no chance to disguise yourself and cameras are all over the place in banks, even if you don't see them.

[kerryin2004]

40. Excellent Point!!

Unless the point is that the proliferation of guns within our society is so pervasive that you can even get them at a bank just registering to open an account..

[Fescue4u]

42. I suppose.

But that would be the more difficult way to do it.

If you want a gun, its much easier to just buy one at your local gun shop, although you wouldnt have the bank investment aspect.

I don't think anyone denies that gun are prolific in our society. Afterall most households have at least one.

[kerryin2004]

48. actually 2..

Last I read is there is 2 guns for every American family..

[MissAnnThrope]

51. That's Still Lower Than Switzerland

Where there are two legally owned guns per person.

Gun crime has nothing to do with the number of guns in a country. Singapore has a higher per capita murder rate than the United States and citizens aren't even allowed to own guns. If someone is going to kill someone, they will find a way. Guns just make it easier, if you have good aim.

[kerryin2004]

52. Check your facts next time..

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm

Switzerland has compulsory gun ownership for military age males, yet it has a far lower murder rate than the U.S. But Switzerland also has far stricter gun control laws. Even so, Switzerland has the second highest rate of handgun ownership and handgun murders in the industrialized world, after the U.S.

Wow second in ownership and deaths.. What a coincidence!


Also I have been to Switzerland and they are far more spread out then we can ever hope to be.. .


Here are some more facts..


United States 29%
Switzerland 14
Finland 7
Germany 7
Belgium 6
France 6
Canada 5
Norway 4
Europe 4
Australia 2
Netherlands 2

United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42


With a population that does not even equate to 1/20 of the USA I think your argument is invalid.

[MissAnnThrope]

53. I Have To Ask...

Do you have any recent stats? That page lists data from 1991 and 1992, which was more than a decade ago.

[kerryin2004]

54. Things have changed in 10 years??

And you think this has changed over 10 years? Was there a mad rush for guns in Switzerland?? Never the less. I will let you have the argument that guns are more prevalent.. Then you must take into account that Swiss population is 1/50 ours, the whole country is spread out(you would know how rural if you had ever been there), and there legislation is stricter.. Gun proponents love to pull out Swiss, yet to compare a rural mountainous country, with only 2 medium sized cities is proposterous..



http://members.aol.com/Falconnn/index2.html



2. In the chapter titled "Is America Too Free?" LaPierre compares the U.S. to Switzerland. He points out that Switzerland has a higher rate of
gun ownership than the U.S. yet they have a lower murder rate and a lower overall crime rate. He goes on to say that "Swiss citizens are entitled to purchase and own all the firearms and ammunition they wish. Target shooting is the national sport....". He went on to conclude that "Switzerland entirely disproves the 'guns cause crime' thesis."

What LaPierre neglected to mention was that Switzerland has the very kinds of gun control laws that the NRA opposes so vehemently. Its true that all men in Switzerland are members of the militia and issued rifles by the government and these rifles are all registered and all ammunition must be accounted for. When it comes to handguns, the Swiss require a background check, a permit to purchase a handgun, and handgun registration. Apparently, Swiss gun owners don't consider this an infringement on their right to own a gun. If anything, Switzerland further proves that gun control DOES work.

[ClassWarrior]

43. The point was the insanity of the gun culture...

It's grown so ridiculous that there are people who don't even think twice about doing something that looks so obviously foolish.

[Fescue4u]

45. Its not ridiculous at all.

What would be ridiculous would be for the bank to be robbed by a depositer who couldnt get a gun any other way, than to give the bank the money he intends to steal.

[Fescue4u]

46. How many times has that bank been robbed?

I betcha that criminals find softer targets.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Keebs]

35. yeah yeah

people give me hell over not having 1000+ posts, too, but we all have to start somewhere. Jeeze.

[Fescue4u]

36. I agree. people with low post counts should be banned

from posting until they have at least 200 posts under their belt.

He may be a troll, but the post count argument gets on my nerves.

[gatorboy]

39. This should settle things...

Here is an article on the bank dated March 19, 2001. So obviously this is long before Moore filmed there.

And yes they had guns displayed in the bank:

http://www.freep.com/money/business/gun19_20010319.htm

"Then again, this is northern Michigan, a hunting haven where guns are as commonplace as snow shovels. Besides, the .12-gauge shotgun and the .270-caliber rifle suspended on a wall rack at North Country Bank & Trust's downtown branch are not just dressing for the teller window. Plunk down a couple of thousand dollars for a 20-year certificate of deposit and either one is yours."

[Swamp Rat]

41. No, Moore did NOT make the event of 9/11 up. He just filmed it and

gave ordinary folks a voice. If your friend "fumed that Moore is a hoax," then I doubt he is a "liberal" or interested in progressive causes. The only guys I personally know who act like that when I mention the name Michael Moore are right wingers/fundies.

Anyway, tell your NeoCon friend that Bush made up 9/11 and is personally responsible for every death... and if your friend votes for Bush, then I hold HIM personally responsible for every American killed in Iraq.

[leftofthedial]

47. if I recall correctly

he did not make up the scene at the bank, but it did require more than one trip to get his gun.

[kayell]

55. yep, all those shots of bush doing nothing on 9/11 were completely fake

he actually flew immediately up to NY, dug a couple of firemen out of the rubble himself (while incognito), and then flew away to OK, and was too modest to admit what a hero he had been.

:eyes:

Just go watch the film and make up your own mind.

[JetJaguar]

56. Trust Moore or Ronald G. Ford?

'North Country's arrangement with Weatherby in Atascadero, California, is the brainchild of Ronald G. Ford, the bank's chairman and chief executive.' -The Ottawa Citizen, January 26, 2001



'Regulators have blasted a Michigan community bank for "hazardous" lending practices, poor management, and an excessive level of bad loans and have barred its chief executive from making lending decisions.

In a March 26 cease-and desist order against $573-million asset North Country Bank and Trust in Manistique, federal and state regulators cited a list of violations and instructed the bank to reexamine its capital position and management practices.

The order, made public Friday in documents North Country's holding company filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, said the bank had not obtained proper documentation or adequate collateral, did not have or enforce sufficient repayment programs, and had too many loans to the hospitality industry.

...

It also bans Ronald G. Ford, the bank's chairman and CEO, from making, renewing, or negotiating loan terms and conditions. He cannot be a member of the loan committee but may retain his seat on the board of directors.

North Country's percentage of noncurrent loans jumped to 6.28% by yearend, versus 1.77% at the end of 2001. The industry average for banks with between $500 million and $1 billion of assets is 0.97%, according to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.'
-The American Banker. April 14, 2003, Monday




'A lawsuit contends former top officers of a troubled northern Michigan corporation intentionally mislead investors with false claims about the company's financial health.

The suit filed late last month in U.S. District Court in Marquette on behalf of shareholders says investors suffered dramatic financial losses due to the actions of Ronald G. Ford and Sherry L. Littlejohn, former top officials with North Country Financial Corporation.

The suit claims Ford and Littlejohn filed federal documents containing information they knew to be untrue concerning the corporation's financial well-being, causing North Country's stock to hold at artificially high prices, the lawsuit alleges.

"Defendants materially misled the investing public, thereby inflating the price of North Country's common stock, by publicly issuing false and misleading statements and omitting to disclose material facts ..." the suit alleged. "Statements ... failed to disclose material adverse information and misrepresented the truth about the company, its business and operations."'
-The Associated Press State & Local Wire, July 3, 2003

----------------------------------------------------------------


The guns for CD's program seems to be the least of the bank's worries, and is unrelated to its regulatory problems.

If the bank management misleads the public about high level
banking functions, it does not seem out of the question that
any statement made by them in regards to the dispersement of
gifts should come under some scrutiny.

[durutti]

58. No, it isn't true. It's been investigated.

Alternet did an investigation and found that Forbes magazine got the bank to claim that it was staged, even though it wasn't. There are also documents (newspaper articles) and videos on Mike's site proving that it wasn't staged.

[NashVegas]

60. Ask Your Friend

If he ever watches:

COPS
Survivor

or any reality-based show, especially those regarding criminal activities. If he says 'yes,' ask him why he watches those, knowing full well their crime dramatizations are staged?

[Blue-Jay]

61. Must we have a thread like this every DAMNED DAY?

Listen. I'm all for helping people out who have questions. But goddamn it, SEE THE MOVIE AND DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS. If you see something that you suspect is inaccurate, look it up later.

geez

[LittleApple81]

62. Thanks for saying this. I hide them, but the hiding feature disappears

when DU gets busy.

[Cocoa]

63. every fact in F911 is true

unlike most things on TV News, like the Saddam statue skit, and the Saddam trial skit, and the Jessica Lynch action movie.

[leesa]

64. He staged news footage? You are being unspecific about WHAT was staged

Keep reading and especially read the archived material about 9-11. You will learn stuff, mostly amazingly well-documented, that will make your head spin. Welcome. There is a wealth of info on this site. Read it and learn about your country and then you won't need to wonder.