Fascism?

[xocolatl]

In an earlier thread, I was (implicitly) accused of breaking Godwins Law. That is, I alluded to fascism by comparing one possible scenario of how 911 happened with the burning of the Reichstag.

Fair enough.

Since then, I've noticed numerous allusions to fascism in various threads. Some of them are well-reasoned, some of them are just hyperbolic and hysterical.

However, I'd like to contribute exerpt from Umberto Eco:
14 Features of Fascism.

Some of them apply to our current moment in history. Some do not.

I encourage you to read them and consider how America in 2004 compares.

[apnu]

1. I don't think the burning of the Reichstag was a fascist act.

I think is was a political act done by fascists, but not an act of fascism.

Just my .02 cents.

[xocolatl]

3. I wasn't saying...

that the Reichstag was a fascist act. Only that my comparison of (one scenario of) 911 to the Reichstag, in fact as evidence of historical precedent for using mass violence as a political tool, was compared by another DU'er as essentially crying fascism.

The article I linked to is a better instrument for determining what is or is not fascism.

[apnu]

6. I wasn't suggesting that...

... but some people get confused when fascists come into a conversation. People have little understanding of fascists (term coined by Mussolini), Nazi's and Stalinists. And once the term "fascist" comes into play a whole bunch of knee-jerking goes on and few actually take the time to consider everything that comes along with the word.

I was only trying to make a clarification about what is and what is not a fascist act and used the Reichstag that you provided as an example.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. IMHO, you're splitting hairs and doing nothing to clarify the issue.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

15. Now we're playing with semantics?

[xocolatl]

18. What is your point?

I don't want to get into a flame war here.

I'm suggesting that it might be helpful and useful to compare the current political situation to what a respected semiotician has said about fascism.

Whether or not you conclude that the Bush administration is "fascist" is irrelevant. That they have used and are using techniques that have been used in the past by regimes that historians have labelled "fascist" might be relevant.

The important thing is to make rational historical comparisons and learn from the exercise.

As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

[tom_paine]

2. fascism.

And yes, virtually every one of the 14 points is either closley or perfectly mirrored bythe Current Imperial Amerika.

Godwin's Law does not apply to Totalitarian Nations such as Imperial Amerika is rapidly transitioning to.

[rock]

4. Godwins Law is BS

I don't accept arbitrarily defined rules (unless you have guns like say the government). In any case, the reason Nazis and Hitler are so often used is because they're such egregious examples of human behavior.

[jean]

5. rock on!

[cheezus]

9. yep. yay, some usenet losers made up a word

let's all follow them.

sheesh.

[xocolatl]

13. Discussion boards such as DU are the progeny of UseNet

... For the record, I do think many of Eco's 14 Features apply here. I also believe that members of the * administration let 911 happen or (possibly) even helped to plan it. But I do think it's important to look at data and not use hyperbole in the wrong context.

[AndyTiedye]

7. Godwin's Law was Rendered Moot by the Patriot Act

[xocolatl]

10. I tend to agree, but...

unfortunately the burden of proof is still upon those who would compare the current administration's policies to those of a fascist dictatorship. This is because the word fascism has very heavy connotations, and because the word has been abused in the past.

This is why I offer up the Eco piece linked to above.

[whistle]

8. Thanks for the thread and the link to Eco's writings...

...as for the political comparisons of America to Eco's 14 points, it would be interesting to set them up in a matrix array with the points across the top and specific events say from when Bush took office down the left hand side and classify those under the various 14 point attributes. I wish that I were competent enough to do that, but I'll leave that to better political scholars than I to decide if it would have any validity. If anyone should do that exercise, I'd like to see it posted here.

[xocolatl]

12. Some resources

I agree it would be interesting. I personally don't have the time (at the moment), but for somebody who might, here are a couple of resources (neither is perfect):

George W. Bush Scorecard of Evil

Center for Cooperative Research 911 Timeline

[Solly Mack]

11. People (some) use Godwin Laws when it doesn't apply

I have no problems calling some folks in America fascists. And I for damn sure don't have a problem calling Bush Inc fascists.



And I can see how the Reichstag fire is comparable to September 11th. Both were used to increase the power of government and to take away civil liberties....among other things. They both also served to create a climate of fear brought on by a police state.




Disclaimer"
* I do insist on factually accurate historical content used in context..
this isn't about your post..it's about something posted yesterday. As I'm sure someone will claim I have somehow contradicted myself by seeing a comparison between the two events when I objected to a particularly disingenuous and historically fallacious comparison of Hitler and Bush. Oh, compare the two...but do it accurately. The post I refer to was deleted, btw.

[leftofthedial]

14. Godwins Law apparently is based on the assumption

that fascism does not exist, which is a demonstrably false assumption.

[Must_B_Free]

17. Not true - you didn't voilate Godwins law

Godwins law contains a disclaimer that it is not intended to impede discussion of VALID comparisons to Hitler.

Clearly, the Bush-Hitler comparison is compeltely valid on all levels.

[xocolatl]

19. I didn't think so...

... but in these days, where such comparisons are appropriate, it is important to have a reference to dispute those who invoke Godwin to discredit the argument. Hence the original post.

[annak110]

20. We could also use "Corporatism"-here is a quote:

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini (from Encyclopedia Italiana, Giovanni Gentile, editor).

[xocolatl]

21. Oh, never mind...

... that doesn't apply to US after all.

</sarcasm>

[Eloriel]

22. Some more resources for you

I don't know why you were getting a hard time -- except that there are a few people here who can't seem to bring themselves to seeing what's clearly before them -- but you're not alone, by any means, in what you're observing. Welcome to DU!

More resources:

I'm crying (Elf sees the warning signs)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1791526#1791609

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

The NASCAR Nazi
Bush is creating an un-American America
http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/38/lost-washburn.php

Nazification of America Phase 3
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Reichstag Fire and 9/11; Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich
Includes: Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush Regime; 9/11 and the Reichstag Fire; What was the Reichstag Fire; Nazis in America; Poland 1939, Iraq 2003 http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

Bush's 9/11 Reichstag Fire by Harvey Wasserman
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm

20 Comparisons by Barrie Zwicker
http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03.htm

The Bush Plan for America: The Rise of an American National Security State
By Jennifer Van Bergen, 14 December 2003 http://www.ftaaimc.org/en/2003/12/3232.shtml

Bush is *not* Hitler!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1868574

What Is Fascism
(This one is quite good and incl. two-tiered legal system as well as many other hallmarks, and Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and additional links)
http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/Politics/Structure3.htm

Superpower Democracy (another must read)
http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/2003_07_01_gd.html#105880160504381723

America, We Have a Problem
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4dodd.htm


And some more DU threads:

It's Time for Another Bush/Nazi Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199887
(most links already harvested)

1944: American fascism (re 1944 article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387

Enough with the "_______ is worse than/ as bad as Hitler"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1730317

How Reagan Got Elected in the first place -- My little tribute
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1773894#1776990 (See Octafish post #33 for links to some books on Amazon)

Is U.S. REALLY like Germany in the 30's? (elementaryPenguin)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1772363#1772645
See also: Is US like Germany of the '30s? (Kayell)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1777406#1780958

Are we on the road to becoming Nazi's?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1784358#

Second Circuit Judge Tells It Like It Is: Bush Is Illegitimate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1833026
re this news story: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/06/21&ID=Ar00101

Comparing Bush to Hitler hurts our credibility
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1873137#1873330

The Fascism is getting harder to hide. And harder to fight.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=750446

Joe Stanton: "Bush's Operation Clean Sweep: World War IV in 2004?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=808293

There's more -- this isn't a bad start tho, perhaps?