I just want to say a quick thing about sexism, racism, etc.

[Fight_n_back]

Women saying a guy is hot isn't the same as a guy saying a women is hot because there are few instances of a woman holding a man down and raping him. Sorry to be so blunt but there is a real physical component involved here. When a man says a woman is attractive he knows he is not a rapist but a woman doesn't. It is most prudent to be extremely sensitive in this area.

When an African American calls a white man a redneck or cracker, so what? What black man is going to get away with lynching white men who don't tip their hat to a black woman? Blacks can't afford to sit around and decipher which comment was innocent and which one wasn't.
All prejudice shown against whites by blacks is powerless and virtually insignificant.

Straight white men have it pretty kush in this society and it would behoove us to quiet down, lay low on the pretend outrage and ride this puppy for all its worth because as soon as the women, blacks, Latinos and gays figure out that there are more W's than Kerry's in the straight white male world then we will be reduced to a meritocracy and have to fight on equal footing...and who wants to try that hard?


That being said, women are the majority of persons in this country and can elect anyone they want. If you don't tell them then I won't.

[Dookus]

1. Sorry

but expressing admiration for another's physical appearance does not equate to rape.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. and if the only comments on the thread were to that effect you would

be righter than right.

But let's also note that she just graduated from Princeton with honors...but who cares...it's only that "babeness" that's of value.

I like to have fun and kid around as much as the next person...but must this conversation always unveil the disrespect so many men have for women and then basque in their denial of?

[Dookus]

5. ah

I didn't read the other thread.

I'm only responding to what was in the original post.

I think you and I would agree on the vast majority of issues regarding racism and sexism - but I do shy away from the anti-sex aspect of some forms of feminism.

[Fight_n_back]

9. As to that

FUCK Princeton! How shallow of you to judge someone by where they went to school. She went to Princeton because her daddy worked his ass off.

Can I see, by a glance, that she went to Princeton? no. I can see that she is youthful and of good breeding stock which raises certain hormonal repsonses in my body. For me to say so would be overtly aggressive, it seems to me, and insensitive. That is my only point.

How many fat, ugly, broke guys do you persue?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. None..I'm gay

Fine with me to say she's beautiful...but hormones don't get you off the hook any more than they do me

[troublemaker]

10. Your emphasis on intellect is shallow and insulting to attractive people

What's so special about being smart? What's so shallow about being attractive?

Just because you value only certain colors in life's rich tapestry doesn't make you right.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. again not at all the point

Nothing shallow about being attractive...I can't seem to repeat it enough times...but must we read how every ugly bastard on this site sitting behind their screens like a little chickenshit posting with one hand wants to pork her with their miniscule penis that they think is a fucking rocketship?

[troublemaker]

20. It's better than reading about how they're voting for Ralph Nadar.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. Hahahahaha! Touche

:D

[slutticus]

107. ROTF!!!!!

"...every ugly bastard on this site sitting behind their screens like a little chickenshit posting with one hand wants to pork her with their miniscule penis that they think is a fucking rocketship?"

Are you kidding me!?!?!?

Someone has issues............ :crazy:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

130. struck a raw nerve, eh?

[Fight_n_back]

3. Sorry

but I have no idea what you are talking about. You are talking about something I never said.

It is not about what you say...it is about what is heard and whether, when told about what is heard, adjust or continue with saying that which offends. If you don't care about who you offend then you are expressing a type of control that not all memebrs of this society have.

If you do the same thing over and over, and people keep getting pissed off about it, at some point someone has to question what response you are really going after.

If you want someone to hear what you are saying then you need to understand what they hear.

The best way to get a women is by complimenting their worst feature anyway, any pimp knows that.

[Dookus]

8. sigh...

don't try to project all the attributes you saw in some other thread on me.

I merely pointed out that I believe expressing admiration for somebody's physical attributes is not the same as rape. YOU made the comparison, not me.

[Fight_n_back]

26. You are misrepresenting what I said

What I said was that the impact of what a man says about a woman's appearance is more charged than what a woman says about a man's appearance.

That charge comes from the fact that, if you wanted to, you could hold a woman down and kiss her. She could not do the same. That vulnerability is real and needs to be considered. It doesn't make you a rapist, it makes the person listening to you uneasy.

Do you like making people uneasy who have done nothing to you? Are you oblivious as to you impact?

[Dookus]

30. again

I get the feeling you're arguing with people on another thread.

I made a very simple, and very narrow claim.

Why on earth would you presume I like making people uneasy? As to being oblivious about my impact, that's a baseless charge.

I'm a man. A big man. 6'1, over 200 pounds. I am VERY aware of the impact that can have on women, especially in circumstances where they're reasonably cautious. When walking down the street, or in a parking garage at night, or other such cases, I make it a point not to walk too closely to single women. I will deliberately slow down so as not to pass them. There was one occasion where me and two friends were walking in an almost-deserted parking garage late at night. A single woman was walking ahead of us in the same direction. Her car was right next to mine. I yelled out to her "don't worry... I'm just parked right next to you" when she started appearing nervous.

But none of this has anything to do with my simple, narrow assertion that expressing admiration for somebody's physique isn't equivalent to rape. I understand what you're trying to say, but I think the comparison is faulty.

[Fight_n_back]

42. Thats because I didn't make the comparison

I said that it was the reason for a different sensitivity.

Were you offended by Bush calling the uber rich his base in Farhenhet 9/11? I was. Because it has an actual impact on my life. It was just a joke, no offense meant. It offended me because it was a metaphor for much of what has fuckled me in my life. A white man calling a black man a nigger is very different than a black man calling a white man a redneck. The reason is that white's have had a virtual carte blanche in this society in how they treat blacks. It doesn't mean that calling someone a nigger is as bad as lynching them. To get that out of what I wrote would make you kind of dim.

[Dookus]

43. nah, I'm not dim

I made a very simple assertion. Why you feel the need to insult me over it, I have no idea.

But seeing how you responded to the woman who was raped (see posts below), I realize that you're a major clymer.

[ForrestGump]

66. Big, too, and feel uncomfortable (apologetic) whenever I have to

walk past or by a solo woman, especially at night when nobody else is around. Sometimes I can sense their fear but, regardless, I certainly feel uncomfortable. I don't like it, but that's just the way it is and I'd rather feel whatever I feel in such situations than add to the burden that the woman bears in that respect. The whole thing sucks, of course, that it's come to that.

But this YANG character's assertion that a double standard is okay -- e.g., that it's dandy for a black person to use perjorative stereotyped characterizations based on ethnicity because they've been so long downtrodden -- that's total crap. I see the point, but when it comes down to it you're talking about prejudice under any flag and that's always an ugly thing. There's no excuse for racial slurs, no matter what your skin color happens to be.

[Forkboy]

Another excellent post

Maybe Yang's thread will bear some fruit after all!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Thanks for that

[dweller]

4. thank you for your insight Sir

or were you speaking for the female pov also?

dp

[Dookus]

6. of course not...

where did I say that?

But I do believe that expressing admiration for the physical attributes of another does not equate to rape. Do you disagree?

[dweller]

23. 'can't afford to sit around and decipher which comment was innocent and

which one wasn't'

was the point. WTF if you and i agree or disagree, since we are presumably both male.
If a female says to me from her pov that a comment is sexist, i take it for a concrete fact.
i owe no solidarity to a gender, but to my consciousness i will remain steadfast loyal.

dp

[Dookus]

25. Well

I would have to weigh the credibility of the person making the claim. I've seen some "feminists" here that would probably be offended that I piss standing up. Some people go out of their way to be offended.

I don't believe admiring somebody's physical attributes is necessarily sexist. If that's ALL somebody ever talks about, then that person is probably sexist, but a single declaration doesn't strike me as offensive.

It's all in how it's done, where it's done, why it's done... I don't think a blanket assertion that all such declarations are sexist is the answer.

[dweller]

33. but a blanket assertion that they are not....?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1953628#1953670
But I do believe that expressing admiration for the physical attributes of another does not equate to rape
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1953628#1953637?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1953628
expressing admiration for another's physical appearance does not equate to rape

edit for clarity...



:eyes:

dp

[Dookus]

36. huh?

I'm not getting your point.

Can you explain it verbally rather than linking to another post in this thread?

[ForrestGump]

72. I have to say that _I_ am offended that you osmoregulate standing up

At least that time that you did it in my kitchen sink. Dude...what were you thinking?

[Dookus]

76. cripes

I took the dishes out! Pardon ME, your majesty!

[VelmaD]

133. Do you know how condescending it is...

when you put "feminists" in quotes? Its presumes that you have the right to decide who is REALLY a feminist and who is not.

[Terran]

7. By that logic...

..a white man should not openly admire a Black man's home because white men have a history of taking away things that belong to Black men.

I'm sorry, your argument is very thin, at best. It implies that women are powerless against men, physically and otherwise.

[slinkerwink]

11. women ARE powerless against men in this patriarchial society

and with legislation that are stacked against us. Look at the partial-birth abortion ban for instance where there is NO clause for the mother's health!

[Dr Fate]

13. In that case, I better not compliment them anymore. n/t

n/t

[Fight_n_back]

18. Well gosh ma'am

perhaps you should get your sisters off their asses and VOTE. You are the majority in this country.

Men die earlier, more often and kill each other more. There are more women than men. You can do whatever you want.

Whether men realize they should be careful how they speak because of our physical advantage has nothing to do with the fact that women victimize themselves in a way no man could ever do.

VOTE...How could any man keep you from dong whatever you wanted? How does Maxim magazine keep you from being the biggest voting bloc in the country?

The largest PAC in the United States? Emily's List.

[Terran]

19. Sorry, I consider that statement to be pure BS

And in any event, we're talking about a narrow example here--a man publicly complimenting a woman on her appearance. There's nothing in that situation that says a woman is always on unequal terms with the man merely *because* he's a man and she's a woman. I don't accept that any individual male carries the burden of his entire gender, as is being implied here. No more than any single woman is comparably burdened. It's absurd. There is too much variety in human behavior to make that a rational assumption.

[Fight_n_back]

14. What?

White men in this society have a history of brutalizing black men and therefore we cannot in any way assume that we can say the same things to blacks as they can say to us. Straight, white men have REAL power in this society. If a black man calls me a honkey what is he going to back it up with? Is he going to exclude me from his golf tournament or not put me in his Presidential Cabinet? what does that have to do with your lame house analogy?

Get real. Straight, white men have very little to take offense with in this society. We should ride this puppy as long as we can before everyboody wakes up.

[Terran]

24. Uh, speak for yourself, white man

Maybe YOU cannot assume that what you say around Black people isn't going to offensive, but if you don't feel confident enough about your own manners to simply compliment someone on their home without insulting them, then you're the one who needs to get real. You're broadening your original statement far out beyond what you actually said, to include insults, not friendly exchanges and compliments. My very un-lame analogy was specific to the situation *you* raised.

[Fight_n_back]

31. Well, another point missed

its not about what you say....its about what people hear.

If a black man insults me do I hear, "Shit, things aren't getting better. This guy is my boss and he hates whites, his boss is black and the CEO is black and they hired this guy and he called me a cracker and a pecker wood. Guess I'll have to look elsewhere for advancement or perhaps just toe the line for another generation".?

I doubt it. I would hear an individuals anger. The impact of the statement is different regardless of the intent of the speaker.

In other words, it doesn't matter if I am confident that I'm not a racist or sexist. It matters whether people of races and sexes think that of me. I don't have to convince me of much to get me on my side.

[Terran]

49. No, sorry

People who bother to listen and to think about what they say and do don't have or cause those problems. The key is respect, both between the genders and ethnicities. Having it genuinely, and showing it.

By your thinking, we should all just stop communicating altogether because it's too dangerous, we might be continually insulting or demeaning each other. Like I said, bullshit.

And by the way, patronizing people is not a way to win an argument.

[Fight_n_back]

53. I have no idea why you are arguing with me

all I said was that people should be aware of their impact when they say things. Nothing you have said disagrees with that.

[Terran]

87. YANG, that isn't what you've been saying (or implying)

I have interpreted what you've been saying, from your first post, to mean that certain things, no matter how innocently meant, *cannot* be said without risking the hearer being hurt by them; and that therefore we *must not say* such things. That is quite different from merely being aware of what you say. Communication depends, as I said, upon rationality and respect, on both sides. As another poster has said in this thread (to paraphrase), I, the speaker, *cannot* be responsible for every nucance of interpretation my listener puts on my words. To do so would be simply absurd. If we all did that, communication would cease, because who is going to accept such responsibility?

Speaking and listening are not exact sciences; communication is a flawed human act. People will injure others, and they will injure *themselves* by not understanding. That's part of life.

[Fight_n_back]

91. A speaker cannot be responsible for each listener

but when massive amounts of people have the same complaint then the speaker needs to listen.

I never said a double standard was okay. I said that straight, white men don't have much to complain about and if getting called a sexist or redneck is as bad as it gets then Im willing to accept that in exchange for the largess I receive not being black, gay or a woman.

People with power say things and they have a greater impact than people without power. If your boss says you did a shitty job it would make you feel worse than if a random homeless person said the same thing. Your boss's opinion about the job you do actually matters. A janitor could say the same words to you and you could say, "What do you know?" even if it gave you pause for a moment, it would not make the same psychic impact as your boss saying you suck.

What is so hard to understand about that? To deny that fact you would have to deny that we live in a society dominated by straight white men and to do so would be ludicrous.

The speaker DOES take into account how the listener hears what they say. It is why they use the language the listener understands.

[merh]

67. It's about what people hear? WTF?

People hear what they want and they take insult to what they want.
It all boils down to personal responsibility. As an individual, I am responsible for my own emotions and reactions to words. My mother taught us "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me." That is a wonderful saying. Name calling or callous statements do not inflict pain or cause harm unless we chose to let them.

[Dunedain]

100. My Father always said

insults only mattered if you believed them.

[merh]

115. Father knows best.

I think your dad would have been great friends with my folks.
:toast: to our folks!

[IranianDemocrat]

112. This is just politically correct bullshit.

cheers.

[Dr Fate]

12. I stay away from racial & sexist slurs... But "hot" girls?

I cant say a girl is "hot"-because she might think I'm a rapist?

I'd like to think Im a fairly smart fella, but I'm afraid I dont get that one.

[harper]

84. Okay, I'm going to regret getting into this but here goes

I don't have any problem with "boy is she hot". That's just part of the male/female dynamic and good for all of us who enjoy that sort of thing. What I found offensive about the Edwards daughter thread was that is disintegrated from "isn't she attractive" to "I'd like to lift her skirt and fuck her". And then, people who complained about it were told to get over it.

How sad...this is a huge day for her family, and for our party. And on the big day, on one of the most prominent democratic message boards, all some folks could find to talk about was how they'd like to fuck this young girl.

I'm sorry for you if you don't get that one.

[Dr Fate]

124. Whooa- I did not see that thread.

Sorry I even posted on this thread- you guys should have been more specific as to what this thread refers to.

I cant imagine that active Democrat adults made those comments...Could be anyone on a message board. If what you are saying is true, then I oppose that, obviously.

[NewJeffCT]

134. the thread was in the Lounge was not a serious thread

However, several posters did go a bit too far in their enthusiasm over the appeal of John Edwards' daughter. The thread was even entitled "Completely Inappropriate John Edwards' daughter is Hot thread" or something like that.

Probably a bit tamer than the fairly regular "who is the hottest actress" threads, I'm guessing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=1372126&mesg_id=1372126

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

22. Thanks for playing the home game

Perhaps it is the fact that I have always been bigger and stronger than everyone around me but I am pretty aware of my physical impact on others.

Perhaps you are puny...even if thats the case, you are bigger and stronger than most women (I assume). Sexual comments from a man to a woman are more charged than a woman to a man.

How recognizing that makes you a rapist, well thats a leap I haven't figured out how you made.

[walldude]

45. Hmm..

""I like to have fun and kid around as much as the next person...but must this conversation always unveil the disrespect so many men have for women and then basque in their denial of?""


Well here's my take on this. When I walk through the Louvre I stare at things of profound beauty. Not all the things, just the ones I find attractive. Dali, Picasso, Escher, Monet. When I walk down the street and see a woman who is attractive to me, I stare, just like I was looking at a beautiful work of art. If that insults you or you think I'm being disrespectful then that is on your shoulders not mine. If it's were true that men are disrespectful and want to hump everything they find beautiful then you'll find me in the Surrealist section humping Dali's Melting Clocks...

[Fight_n_back]

50. Golly

If you knew that almost every woman found it incredibly invasive that you were staring would it matter to you?

The locked thread was about objecting women, which I found absurd but comparing them to paintings does just exactly that.

My only point is this, it does not garner the same reaction when a man ogles a woman as when a woman ogles a man. One very huge reason for this is that the man never feels his safety threatened in this situation.

Never in that statement do I assert that men should not find women attractive or that beauty is any less a positive attribute than anything else. My only point is that it is DIFFERENT. A woman does not always accept a man staring at her as a positive thing. There is a pretty good reason for it. Whether you ignore that or not is up to you.

[HarveyBriggs]

27. More men are abused than women

Maggie and Jiggs, Maggie has a rolling pin ready when Jiggs gets home. And THAT's OK Mama?

Same thing when Andy Kapp gets home from the Pub -- rolling pin. That's OK. That's funny.

Some Canadian woman draws a "family" comic strip where two girls physically beat the living tar out of a guy for two timing, and that is OK, too.

Two babies looking into each others diapers, one says "Hey maybe this is why I'll get drafted and sent to 'Nam, and you won't?

You never listened to as 19-year friend dies in your arms off in some godforsaken war based on a lie that nobody ever wanted to win. But I'll bet you were ready to take his job when he didn't come home.

You had "send your daughter to work day." I had, "have your son come home in a body bag" day.

I have two purple hearts and nightmares you'll never imagine. And you have it so kushy compared to me?

You have less appreciation for people who go to die for your mistakes, than Bush and Cheney combined.

You get the picture?

How about if you become a victim someday, and I blame it on youy. "Cause that's what happened when I came home from 'Nam.

Sound like rape. Felt like it. I still have wounds, too.

Maybe one day I'll sit on your jury and be just as unfair as you and your friends were on mine.

F**K LBJ

Harvey Briggs

[Skittles]

28. a man who gets it

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mandelion]

29. not to make this too personal..

But as someone who was raped, allow me to be a bit offended that someone would equate an act of violence like rape to a compliment, warranted or not.

Rape is a horrid physical act of brutality. Calling someone hot might make them a little insecure or boost their ego (depending on how they feel about themselves) but in no way does it come close to what happens when you are raped. There is no question it's done for power and to hurt the person raped for someone else's pleasure.

[Fight_n_back]

34. Sorry but

The point isn't whether a compliment is the same as rape.

The point is that a woman complimenting a man for his attractiveness does not have the same emotinal charge as a man complimenting a woma

{edited to remove bizarrely rude remark}

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

39. agreed

that was really over the line, YANG. You should apologize.

edit: the original was deleted. YANG asked if "the rape affected your ability to understand English".

I just thought people should see what we're dealing with here.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Droopy]

38. Pretty insensitive remark for a guy preaching sensitivity. nt

[Fight_n_back]

44. Yeah it was sorry

Im going to edit it

[Droopy]

54. Alright

Keep your cool, man. You've touched on a subject that makes people.....well........touchy.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

46. no kidding...

I'm not gonna take sensitivity training from somebody who would respond that way.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

51. Yeah I agree

I edited it.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

59. What a bizarre argument

so you are saying that you now believe that men can objectify women because I argued the point poorly?

I think what you are really saying is that you find what I said to be unforgiveable because of the pain of your own personal experience. I apologize for that but it has nothing to do with the power of words other than to expose the fact that my premise is true. Words often have a much greater impact on the listener than the speaker intended.

[Heddi]

63. why do I have to be a rape victim to be offended at what you said?

Where do you EVER get the idea that I'm a victim of a sexual crime?

See--there you go, AGAIN, generalizing about women, our feelings, our emotions---OBVIOUSLY no one can be offended about rape unless you're raped, right? :eyes:

So, as a white person, I'm incapable of being offended if a black person is called a Nigger, or if a Jewish person has a swastika painted on their house unless I'm black or Jewish :shrug:

*YOU* make no sense. Again---You're insensitive to insensitivity.

[Fight_n_back]

73. I never said you shouldn't be offended by what I said

I am embarrassed and offended about what I said.

What does it have to do with the point that people should be aware of the impact their words have on others?

[Forkboy]

64. Give it up Yang

You blew it with that fucked comment.

"When you find yourself in a hole,quit digging".

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heddi]

71. Yep---and I love the fact

that because I was offended, I *MUST* be a victim of rape. That their comments couldn't be offensive on any level other than dredging up personal painful memories of daddy touching my woo-woo hole.

What a fucking joke.

I guess as humans we're incapable of being offended on a HUMAN level--we must compartmentalize and categorize ourselves to justify our offense. I can't be offended at a rape comment, I have to be a RAPE VICTIM to be offended at a rape comment.

[Fight_n_back]

75. You can be offended at whatever you want

it doesn't mean you doisagree with what the thread is about.

People should be aware of what impact their words have on others.

[Cat Atomic]

32. Bullshit.

Bad manners is bad manners, whether you're white, black, male, or female. Period.

[Fight_n_back]

37. Bullshit

Sticks and stones may break my bones but a justice system that incarcerates one color at a higher rate than another for the same crimes can really hurt me.

Manners? Do you know any white people that have been pulled over while driving for absolutely no cause? I don't.

The blacks I know who haven't are the ones who are too young to drive. It would tend to make blacks more sensitive to certain words. Someone with manners would be aware of that sensitivity.

[Cat Atomic]

40. Just what subject do you want to discuss? Profiling?

When you decide what's got you angry, come back and talk about it. You're all over the fucking map.

By the way, after what you just said to mandelion, you've got zero business talking about manners and sensitivity.

[Dookus]

47. hrmm

"Do you know any white people that have been pulled over while driving for absolutely no cause? I don't."

I do. I was one of them, as were many of my friends. I lived for many years in a predominantly black town that was extremely ridden by drug violence in the late '80s and early '90s. It was, in fact, the "murder capital" of the US.

I, and my white friends, were quite frequently pulled over. Almost all white people driving through town were people searching for drugs. It was fairly common for the cops to pull over white people in that town.

Not that it means much... just saying that "racial profiling" does work the other way, too.

[Heddi]

52. ssshhh.....

stop making sense

[Fight_n_back]

57. Good for you

What is your point exactly? That you shouldn't be sensitive to what people haer you say when you talk?

Your going to have to spell out your point a little more clearly.

[Dookus]

58. You're on a roll tonight

insulting a rape victim wasn't satisfying enough? Now you need to insult Heddi for no reason?

What a Clymer.

[Fight_n_back]

62. I asked them to clarify the point

perhaps in your world that is an insult. Where I come from it is a direct rtequest for more information.

But haven't you been arguing that I can say anything I want and that if it offends you then that is your problem?

BTW, if I point out things I have been victim of does it give me special rights? If I tell you my life story will it make you feel bad for insulting me? I can't point out that women feel vulnerable to men physiacally but you can point out a post that I edited away? I, guess, that what you are really saying is that you are primarily interested in words as a source of gaining power over others which..

of course...

would prove my point.

[Dookus]

65. yabber away all you want

you outed yourself above. I know just what you are. I suspect you do, too, and it's killing you.

[ForrestGump]

86. Ah, yes, in addition to my pull-over mentioned above, I was many times

stopped and questioned by police while walking in the wee hours of the morning. I was 'suspicious looking.' I think the leather jacket helped. I got sick of it after a while.

[ForrestGump]

85. Actually, given that you asked, yes...I've bene pulled over for no reason

by a policeman. He was of African heritage. In Georgia. The world is a strange place.

And, yes, I fully recognize the validity of the original point...still, that piece of weirdness is ensconced within my life's experience.

[Heddi]

61. As a woman, Let *ME* say a quick thing about sexism

Who are you to tell all women that we MUST be offended should we hear the comment (whether directed at us personally, or towards someone else) "you're hot" or 'she's hot'.

I'm my own person, thank you, and I'll feel any damn way I feel.

You say that we can't "sit around and decipher which comment was innocent and which wasn't"---I don't know about you, but I tend not to surround myself with racist, sexist, bigoted assholes who would ever make comments to me that could even be vaguely deemed innapropriate.

If a strange guy walks up to me on the street and says "Hey baby, nice ass" I would actually be personally amused because I have the furthest thing FROM a nice ass. If he grabbed my boob, then I'd be offended---stuck his tongue down my throat, that's something as well that would cause offense (among other things).

But hearing "yo! she's hot"---why MUST I be offended at that?

I get so tired of being told WHAT *I* need to do. How *I* need to feel. White men (and i'm not assuming that you are one) always seem to have this great interest in telling women, gays, racial minorities, etc, what WE need to feel. What WE need to get enraged about.

Fuck that. I can set my own priorities.

And this isn't to say that someone who DOES find offense to comments like "she's hot" or whatever, is WRONG, or that they're concerned about the wrong issues---far from it. We're all individuals. But don't lump all women together, as if we're some card-carrying club who MUST all rally behind every single issue that supposedly pertains to 'women's issues', and if we don't then we're some kind of heathens.

:shrug:

Although I have to say that I'm laughing as I post this because I think that comments you made earlier in the thread, which have since been edited by you, totally break down every argument you've made in this thread. You rail about insensitivity, and then you say the absolute rudest, offensive thing regarding rape and rape victims that I have ever had the displeasure of reading. So honestly your opinion doesn't matter to me. You shot your own argument all to shit.

[Fight_n_back]

68. What I deleted

was in no way as offensive as what Bush's candidate for a federal judgeship has said about rape.

AS for what offends you, how is that the point?

Do you disagree with the assertion that people should be aware of the impact their words have on others?

What about that do you disagree with?

If you found out Einstein was a serial killer it wouldn't make the Theory of Relativity less relavent. It would just make you less likely to invite Einstein to a party.

[Heddi]

81. You say

"What I deleted was in no was as offensive as what Bush's candidate for a federal judgeship has said about rape"

who are you to make that comment? You? Because you said it?

Offense doesn't have to be 'worse than' something else in order to be offensive.

John Wayne Gacy killed--what, 36 young men? Hitler killed 6 million. Are the murders of John Wayne Gacy any less....murderous than Hitlers? Are we not supposed to think of those murders as bad because "they're not as bad as..."

Sorry. YOU say it wasn't "as offensive". I say there's no such thing as "as offensive". An offense is an offense and I can be just as offended at the rape of one woman as I can be offended at the murder of 1,000 Iraqi's.

As for what offends me---that's the entire point of your thread. Offense, and how us wimmen and minorites should be all riled up. That we're unable to think for ourselves, to "sit back and judge" the validity of a comment. That we're these poor little souls, so trodden upon by the White Man that we now need the White Man to save us by telling us about sensitivty and compassion.

Fuck that.

And I pitty the people who weren't able to read your deleted post. I would say that those 20 or so words you typed said more about you, your personality, and your convictions to the qualities you're supposedly SOOOO dedicated to, than 5 years worth of posts on DU could EVER do

[Fight_n_back]

90. You used a superlative

You said it was the most offensive thing you had ever read. I have never said what I said wasn't offensive. I said it was not the most offensive and furthermore, it is gone, in the ether and will not be how I judge cases from a federal bench so it has no effect on anything.

You can use your anger to characterize me however you wish but you still haven't even disagreed with my premise, that people should be aware of the impact their words have others.

As for your opinion of me, who gives a fuck? I deleted what I posted, apologized for it, admitted it was a mistake, we will never meet, you wouoldn't know me if we did meet and I don't care what you think. So why don't you put me on ignore?

Glad I gave you a focal point for your anger issues.

[Heddi]

93. You're funny

your premise wasn't that people should be sensitive to what they say. Your premise was that certain things SHOULD NOT BE SAID because they're inherently offensive to certain people. That is 180 degrees from your original post.

And again, I love how because I'm offended at your comments, and will be regardless of your appologies and editing, then I have "anger issues".

Similarly, I had to be a victim of sexual assault to be offended at your comment about rape victims.

You're quite good at assuming things about other people.

Let's see--you "assume" that certain phrases are INHERENTLY offensive to certain people, regardless of the context, regardless of the relationship to the person saying such things, etc.

Then, you "assume" that a poster has reading comprehension problems because she's a rape victim. You further assume that she must have had to go to therapy to 'learn to trust men'

Then, you "assume" that I have to be a rape victim in order to be offended at your comments TO a rape victim.

THEN, you "assume" that I have anger issues because I disagree with you vehemently about your post.

Get this--This isn't YANGunderground. I am not mandated to say "great argument, even though it's got more holes than swiss cheese". I can disagree with you until the cows come home. That's why this is called a DISCUSSION BOARD---not a "pat everyone on the back and compliment them" board.

[Fight_n_back]

121. I really have no idea what you are talking about

you are disagreeing with things I never said.

You also continue to mention things that I have responded to without acknowledging the responses. You are continuing to discuss an offensive comment that only three people would know about if you didn't keep bringing it up, and lying in the process.

The only real reason to do this is to show you are angry because it has nothing to do with the post that started the thread. That you have shown no issue with other than that you don't quite understand it yet don't want it elucidated.

You are free to disagree with me except that you don't disagree with me. You are angry about something else and therefore cannot admit that you agree with me.

So you got really worked up about something in cyberspace while saying that words have no impact?

Yeah...take it to your logic teacher.

[Forkboy]

94. LMAO

that people should be aware of the impact their words have others.


The irony is damn near too much for one brain to comprehend :crazy:

[Heddi]

96. I'm printing this thread out to give to my Logic Teacher

to use when teaching "circular logic" and the wonderful "locigal fallacies" lectures :)

[Forkboy]

98. I can sum up his position much quicker

"Words can hurt you stupid motherfuckers!"

[Heddi]

101. Heh

kind of like when my mom said "No FUCKING CUSSING IN THE HOUSE" ha ha

[Fight_n_back]

119. Finally

someone who gets it.

[Forkboy]

69. BEST FUCKING POST OF THE DAY!!!!!

from either sex :thumbsup:

[Terran]

88. I agree!

Nice one, Heddi!

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ForrestGump]

89. You're hot

:D

Actually, I never did like that term -- wouldn't use those particular words, myself -- but I do love your post.

[Cheswick2.0]

70. never mind

[Nevernose]

77. What's on that kid's mouth?

Sorry to completely change the subject, but in your sig-pic, what's on that kids mouth?

[Dookus]

79. looks like a pacifier

to me.

[Nevernose]

80. That was my first thought, but she looks a little old for a pacifier

n/t

[Dookus]

82. yeah, she is...

but I've seen lotsa kids her age with 'em. Some parents just don't wanna go through the fight of taking it away, I guess.

[Fight_n_back]

92. If I said that kid was

"hot"
would it offend you?

[Dookus]

95. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised

considering your other posts in this thread.

You seem to have some real issues around sexual violence.

[Forkboy]

97. From you it would be a fucking step up

[Nevernose]

99. I think maybe I'm getting your point here

Are you differentiating between commenting on a person's attractiveness and saying that someone is "hot," which has an underlying sexual connotation?

Or are you comparing sexual attraction to adults to pedophilia?

[Heddi]

102. who knows

I think he's comparing saying "you're hot" to being raped and being racially profiled. Or something

[Fight_n_back]

109. Im just wondering

if those guys will admit that saying someone is hot could be seen as being offensive.

Obviously if there is a huge disparity in power, as there would be between an adult and a child it would be offensive regardless of social taboo.

These guys just seem to draw an arbitrary line and seem to need control over who draws the line.

Thats the only point.

[Dookus]

113. your point

is silly. Comparing adult appreciation for the physical attributes of another to pedophilia is odd, to put it mildly. Also comparing it to rape and racial profiling is odd, to put it mildly.

I do give you credit, though... you don't back down no matter how badly you embarrass yourself.

[Guaranteed]

114. It can be offensive, absolutely.

It can be inappropriate, rude, gross, etc.

But saying a celebrity woman is hot, or even saying one would like to "fuck her," is not sexist.

It's the word "sexist." It's just being overused.

[Fight_n_back]

118. That is a different issue

"Sexism" classically defined would be describing a worldview that is far more reaching than whether you like JLo's butt. The point is that speaking about a woman sexually has much different heat than a woman talking about a man.

A black person making a joke at a white person's expense carries less heat than the reverse.

It doesn't speak to the motivation of the speaker, only the dynamic of what is said.

I am constantly surprised that this idea is such a big deal.

[Guaranteed]

120. No, I think you're entirely correct as far as social interactions

are concerned, and people should (and usually do) keep that in mind when dealing with others.

[Cats Against Frist]

103. Yang has a point

Though blurred -- I think it is this. It is all too common for the "victimizers" to bitch about how the "victims" are taking away their power -- "feminazis" feminizing the male population, et. al.

I think what Yang is trying to say is that when you're a victim, or you're the victimized group -- you don't HAVE power, so people demonizing you is a joke.

It would be akin to saying that the Jews "really sucked" to claim moral highground over the Nazis, or something. You can't attribute things like "Nazi" to a group that does NOT hold the rein of power.

That's what's become really twisted in this society -- you have a victimized group -- say gays (to mix it up a little), who clamor for a little respect in the Darwinian darkness, and then the people who can hire, fire, rent to, grant marriages get pissed because they've spoken up, and attribute "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy" to be a Gay Goebbles campaign, and the gays are all over your television -- THOSE FUCKING GAYS!!!

But the "Gays" still don't have any power. And, at best, what power they will be given will simply be to let them enjoy the same rights that non-gays have.

I know this is jumbled up -- it's very hard to explain. But I think this is what Yang was trying to get at.

Edited to add: Okay, I posted this before I read this whole thread and maybe I'm not quite saying what Yang said. I think I did misunderstand the original post -- and this whole thread was kind of whack. I'm an asshole for contributing...:)

[Forkboy]

104. You summed it up far better

[Cats Against Frist]

106. Thanks :)

Maybe that's what he SHOULD have meant to say...

I think it connects -- in a roundabout way.

[Pithlet]

108. That's what I thought, too.

But the point was poorly made, and the thread has since all gone downhill. It's a mess. I know we all can screw up and say stuff we don't mean occasionally, but if I'd made a comment like the one since edited out, I don't think I'd ever show my face on DU again, let alone continue to try to make my point. Yikes...

[Fight_n_back]

116. Yeah well

I don't have a face here, just an anonymous handle and I have said many offensive things here.

Many of the people piling on have issues with me regarding other policies and actually don't have an argument with my premise, they just have an issue with me.

I have posted about 8,000 times here and I would bet that only about 10 were hardcore offensive but nothing was as bad as what I said in response to that woman. That was bad even for me. If I didn't know me better than I would think it was a reflection of who I really was.

[Guaranteed]

117. You've already apologized for it.

Forget about it.

[Pithlet]

126. I didn't mean

that I thought that you should never show your face here again. I meant that if I had done that, I would have been too embarrassed and ashamed to continue the debate, even if I were right. You had some valid points, but you really seriously hurt your with that comment. I know you apologized, and admit that it was a terrible thing to say, and that is something.

[Guaranteed]

110. No, that's basically what he was saying.

He was trying to reconcile the two sides of this issue, but then he fucked up and said something really stupid and offensive (for which he apologized) and everybody rat-fucked him.

Dare I say it was like a gang-rape?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

129. Wow more wisdom from you.

no it wasn't anything like a gand rape and waht a stupid fucking thing to say after a woman posted on this thread who actually WAS RAPED? Ha ha....BullGooseLooney get one up on them oversensitive wimmin again.

Do you pride yourself on this?

Is the world your own personal potty to thoughtlessly piss all over?

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. I never knew challenging ignorance was tantamount to rape

[Guaranteed]

136. 6 or 7 people piling on and chastising someone who recognized

that was he had said was wrong, and apologized for it, for the FUN of it is disgusting.

This guy KNEW he had said something stupid, and they got off on tearing him apart.

I invite you to scroll up and look at what you call "challenging ignorance." It was a RATFUCK, and yes, it is figuratively comparable to raping someone.

[Fight_n_back]

111. You got the point nt

[cheezus]

105. That is quite possibly the best worded troll I've seen on DU

ur teh coolest!!!111111111 OMG!!!!11111!11one!!!!

[Fight_n_back]

122. I had a much better worded troll

about two years ago.

If by troll you mean "post meant to evoke a reaction and move the debate".

It is certainly isn't like those "help me convince my Republican friend that Kerry isn't a communist" type posts we used to see all the time.

[kiahzero]

123. If the shoe fits

Definition of a troll, from Wikipedia:
"A post (on a newsgroup, or other forum) thought to be intended to incite controversy or conflict or cause annoyance or offense."

You said that men shouldn't call women 'hot' because some men rape women. How does one read that without thinking that the OP intended to incite controversy or conflit or cause annoyance or offense?

[Fight_n_back]

125. I didn't intend to say that

that is one way to look at it.

What I wanted to say was that women feel more vulnerable physically to men than men do to women and this is reflected in the response to the "she is hot I want to bone her" type threads.

It seems kind of obvious that women respond to comments about how they look in a different way then men intend them. Power and perceived power has an affect on the connotation of what is said.

What part of that do you disagree with and why?

[T Town Jake]

127. Oh yes, I think I understand you quite well...

...so did Orwell:

"In the old days, he thought, a man looked at a girl's body and saw that it was desirable, and that was the end of the story. But you could not have pure love or pure lust nowadays. No emotion was pure, because everything was mixed up with fear and hatred. Their embrace had been a battle, the climax a victory. It was a blow struck against the Party. It was a political act."
--George Orwell, "1984"

Keep up the good work, YANG, with your neo-Puritanical crusade to scrub the word "hot" from the vocabulary of any male whom happens to spot a woman he finds attractive: Jerry Falwell would approve. That's sure the most important issue in the world right now, isn't it? And it's such a vote-getter! I can see the campaign poster right now: "Jail the lingering gazers, and imprison the whistlers! Stamp out rampant Sexism NOW!" And, if the problem persists, well, I've heard that there's this garb called a "Burqua" that works soooo well in keeping the "offensive" male gaze at bay; this now-defunct outfit called The Taliban was quite partial to them at one time...<snicker>...

(/Extreme Sarcasm)

[Guaranteed]

128. You should have been around for the fun earlier

What Yang is saying is really nothing.

[smirkymonkey]

132. Yang, you are a very wise person!

Thank you for putting it so well!