This place is turning me back into a Republican (not really, but..)

[wtf]

>I'm gonna edit the first couple lines because they're just mean..

I've seen the light as it pertains to most of the arguments the right uses against the left, but one which I still whole-heartedly agree with, is the notion that people on the left are constantly preaching tolerance (which we should be doing!) but Jesus Christ, stray from the party, or the ideological line, an inch, and you get thrown to the wolves.

The Democratic party is a many wonderful thing, but the party of inclusion, it ain't.

I know I'm painting with a very large brush here, but I wanted to get that off my chest.

[swag]

1. Speaking only for and of myself, and not for the Party,

I'd have to say that you've got a point.

Anyway, I hope you vote D this year.

Thanks for the comments, hombre.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. Well, DU isn't the democratic party...we are kind of a clique.

:)

[w13rd0]

3. Thinking in "left-right" false paradigms...

...subsequently thinking one will get along with everyone on the left...is as absurd an argument as saying that because I am a man (1/2 the population), I'm compatible with every other man. Substitute just about any yin-yang into the equation. People are not solely one thing, one category. A mish mash of beliefs and behaviors, many not in any way consistent. Even when isolating oneself in groups of the "like-minded", there are still clashes. Hell, look at just about any "leftist" activist organization. Worse than a tupperware party for all the gossip and backstabbing.

It's all good though.

[Forkboy]

4. DU would never make me vote repub...nothing can

but DU has pushed me farther left,and I wont be a Dem after November for the first time since I was eligible to vote.

[Boomer]

5. This is the human condition

"the snottiness, the closed-mindedness, the elitism, the hypocrisy "

Take any group whatsoever -- be it Democrats, sports fans, opera lovers, a church congregation, Trekkies, a company, a city block, a small town -- and you'll run into that same social noise. It makes me crazy and I find myself yelling, "I've had it with (fill-in-the-blank)!!" and then I vow never to get sucked into (fill-in-the-blank) again. So I go away and join some other group/community/movement and guess what happens....

[wtf]

10. You guys are right..

I was too harsh. Got worked up for a minute there.

[Sugarbleus]

49. You pretty much hit it right on the nail head Boomer..

'The Human Condition' I like that phrase, it suits the subject.

We all get sucked into something for some reason for a certain amount of time, at least once in our life. I do it. Then I get burned out and decide to go it alone for awhile. Until I get lonely and then I go back to a "group" and hang out for awhile....until I get burned out again. LOL

For me, I MUST think independently at all costs. I listen to all comers, all ideas, then make up my own mind as to what I chose to believe and which way I chose to go. This way makes life simple for me. I give everyone a chance to speak their bit, rightly or wrongly according to MY way of thinking, then weigh it...then go on. I try to keep an open mind and I crave learning new things.

[DBoon]

6. This should be a tolerant party

and we need to make it one

[MissB]

7. I don't see much in the way of

snottiness, closed-mindedness, elitism and hypocrisy on this board. Maybe you're referring to another board? Or maybe you're referring to the DU Lounge?

You are painting with a very large brush, and I hope you feel better for getting it off your chest.

[Blue-Jay]

33. Whoooa.

"Or maybe you're referring to the DU Lounge?"

WTF is that?

[MissB]

36. I'm just painting the Lounge with a very broad brush

No offense intended.

[Blue-Jay]

43. Yes, and you're also engaging in the very type

of behavior that you are arguing against. Most Lounge-dwellers are also very active in the other DU forums, myself included. Certainly, there are groups of people who know each other well (cliques, if you will) and engage in inside jokes on occasion. But to compare that with elitism is patently false and insulting. I'd guess that "offense" was indeed intended.

(and I'm mot even a member of any of the cool cliques)

[tainted_chimp]

48. you may not be in any cool cliques....

("and I'm mot even a member of any of the cool cliques")


but your squirrl bush pic is pretty fucking damn cool! :hi:

ive always been a fan!


edited because im a spaz

[Blue-Jay]

52. Haha!

Thanks for not correcting my fat-fingered typo.

(I'm waaaay too cool to be in a clique) Groucho said it best.

[MissB]

53. I realize that you missed the humor in both of my posts

You are taking offense where none is intended. It is difficult to read humor on message boards.

The OP was making some interesting comments about DU. I had no idea where he was coming from. My suggestion of the Lounge was a joke.

Sorry you missed it!

[Cleita]

8. Hmmm.

I really don't know what you are saying. I come from a Republican home and crossing over in my teenage years was a real ideological commitment for me. I could never be conservative in my thinking again, so I don't know how you can jump back over the fence so to speak unless your ideals aren't that well thought out. I hope you plan on staying on the light side of the force, when you sort out your ideological problems. The rest of it falls into place once you know where you stand. Then the division and infighting is just about finding the best path.

[Az_lefty]

9. Remember this is an open forum....

don't be discouraged by some of the things you see here. I've learned to live with it. The Democratic party is the best place to be, irregardless of those you may disagree with.

[Liberal Veteran]

14. I disagree with you...

...that irregardless is a word.

[mike1963]

23. See how you are?

:D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. No shit man...try being a woman or black or gay in this party

Try putting what you value at the back of the bus repeatedly

[Forkboy]

13. or a Green sympathizer

:evilgrin:

[Cheswick2.0]

38. that would be a different party

by definition not a part of the big tent.

[Forkboy]

41. I said Green sympathizer not actual Green

but I'm well aware of your definition of "big tent".It's one of the reasons I dont want to be a Dem anymore.

[Cheswick2.0]

42. whatever, it is still a different party

we are not required to be nice about their campaigns or their candidates.

[Forkboy]

44. Where did I say you were required to do anything?

[Liberal Veteran]

22. Amen NSMA!!!! Amen!

LOL

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Or Try Being

Someone who holds strong libertarian values, thinks the drug war/overblown prison-industrial complex is a wasteful pile of crap, and doesn't understand why some Democrats often try to match the Republicans in terms of puritan meddling in the personal choices of consenting adults (please, before responding, note the use there of "consenting" and "adults")... Meanwhile, the Democratic party also is, IMHO, often way too wishy-washy on social safety net issues, like Single Payer Health Care. I agree with the Greens on many issues, the Libertarians on many others, yet I've almost never voted anything other than a straight Dem. ticket. Go figure.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Hey I lobbied and canvassed for drug TREATMENT in California

I can get that...oh and on the CONSENTING and ADULTS...my only point would be....CONSENTING can often be a slippery slope...for instance when one is a single mother and CAN'T get child care...is she stripping as a consenting adult or doing it as there is not affordable child care or rent

You do have me a bit perplexed on your healthcare positions since Libertarians are not widely regarded for their positions on social justice...I think you'd have a harder time fitting in with them if you give a flying F*ck about the wellbeing of society at large.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Left Libertarian is Not Libertarian

First off, regarding your stripper example- my question to you is, how would you deal with that situation? By working to make child care more accessible to low income mothers? Or by criminalizing the act of stripping for money? The first, I'm totally in favor of. The second, I find onerous and an infringement upon the free choice of individuals.

I don't see any philisophical inconsistency between being strongly in favor of the right of individuals to be left mostly alone on questions of personal morality, while also supporting a strong safety net. I believe in free enterprise, I believe in capitalism (but not the crony corporate kind we have now, which is hardly "free" or "enterprise") but I also believe that there are situations that the free market does not adequately address. I don't think schools should be privatized. Nor roads. Nor sewers. I think there are certain activities and responsibilities that the larger society as a whole has to each other and themselves. Health care is one of these. I think a SPHC system is a no-brainer, and obviously having out-for-profit insurance companies in charge of the system is leading us to disaster. Likewise, I think the libertarians are wrong because they extend the liberty which we should be granting to individuals to corporations as well, which are not individuals and have a much greater capacity for harm to the public well-being. I think corporations should have less freedom, and more responsibility, than individuals. Unfortunately, we, as a society, seem to be moving in the opposite direction.

There's a big difference between giving a flying f*ck about the general wellbeing of society, however, and getting my knickers all bunched up about how my neighbors choose to get their jollies.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpiralHawk]

12. You get all kinds at DU

While I agree that your observations about Snottieness can hold true from time to time, over the months it all evens out. There are plenty of wise, insightful, and courteous posters. I feel they outnumber the One Mind boors who Demand Ideological Compliance.

That is tiresome, indeed, whether it arises on the Right or the Left.

But I encourage you to stick around and follow -- and join -- the debates for a bit longer. I have a hunch DU is going to get even more compelling -- maybe a bit rougher, too -- but I also feel it's important to frequent this forum and hear the voices -- all the voices.

Good luck, SH

[Guaranteed]

15. Don't let it bother you too much.

Most folks here on DU aren't like that. Stick around, we're good folks.

[olddem43]

16. Yeah, and we use a lot of hyperbole too, mostly because we

are preaching to the choir but also for the joke value. We ain't all that bad but people talk differently when they are among friends.
However, if someone really goes off the deep end, others will correct him. Oh, and one other thing, the Dems are much more inclusive than the other guys.

[still_one]

17. No one agrees 100% of the time

This is what happens with 12 years of constant bashing of the "liberals". Sure it is an over-reaction, but my experience is the views here are more like a bell-curve, with most of the people of the "live and let live " mind set, and more extreme positions represent less of the majority

[mike1963]

18. Do you have something specific in mind?...is it on some particular issue?

We are indeed a contentious lot, that is our tendency and maybe our job. And there is more than a speck of inernal discord in the GOP these days too. A concensus doesn't have to be 100%, and I don't know if I would even want such a thing. :D

[Cyrano]

19. What you're reading here is frustration

The repugs have dominated the message for so long, that most of us are fed up, disgusted, frustrated, angry, hateful, goddamn spitting mad, and ready to assault anyone who disagrees with us.

The Bush administration has committed crimes against humanity and yet, half of this country still doesn't see it or get it.

We are, in effect, powerless. And a great deal of what you're reading on this site is a symptom of the inability to effectively counter their lies and their degradation of what used to be "Our Country."

Hang in there. If we win in November, all will be well. If we lose, hopefully, the remainder of humankind on this planet that still has a conscience will rise up and help us put an end to the insanity that's been going on for the past 3 1/2 years.

[Fight_n_back]

20. How does that have to do with a political party?

If you want people who will lead exemploary, moral lives for you then get a church, synagogue or Klan meeting.

Democrats don't stand for being nice....Democrats stand for building a society where everyone has an equal shot at success. Some of us cuss while doing it. Some is smoke pot while doing it, some of us "do it" while doing it.

[mmonk]

21. No lock step here

Disagreements are the proof.

[wurzel]

24. If you mean it doesn't include Bush Republicans you are probably right.

But compared to the current Republican Party I'd say we are very inclusive. Wouldn't you?

[cprise]

25. Open-mindedness

...isn't supposed to be a condition where one's brains fall out.

So why aren't Dems more accepting of empire-building and theft?

Because ideas and policies are not skin color, gender, income or other similar factors; they are fair game esp. when they the above categories to abuse or prey on people.

Maybe your conception of Democrats (necessarily) being fluffy doormats comes from conservative mis-information and probably from watching the last crop of Dem senators on CSPAN.

[Liberal Veteran]

27. Speaking from experience....

....I know I have felt that way on this board from time to time, when I found myself in the minority consensus on an issue.

As long as you defend your opinion rationally, most people will at least listen even if they totally disagree with it.

Then the next time around you find yourself in a majority on a different issue beating up on a minority opinion on another issue.

That's just how goes.

Be yourself, be open-minded, know when to step back and take a breath.

It's all good.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. Here's the deal. Most Democrats are tired of being kicked around by....

...the GOP and have run out of cheeks to turn. We've adopted a rather hard-nose approach to the 2004 election, and I for one, am glad to see it.

IMHO, in order to win this election, we have to close ranks, keep in-fighting to a minimum, and Devil take the hindmost.

[obelus]

29. I know how you feel.

I've been a liberal for 20 years, but I only rarely get to fly the colors with a feeling of true victory. Over the years I have been attacked verbally, physically, and financially for my beliefs. I troll over on The Command Post and Winds of Change a lot because there is a good deal of exchange and the hosts rigorously endeavor not to arbitrarily ban posts.

The eight-hour workday, the end of child labor, the right to organize, civil rights, and women's rights did not come about because of the left's ability to out-sneer and out-snark the opposition. The most that is risked by engaging in on-line debate is the occasional ad hominem attack. When you think about it, that is something that can be endured rather easily.

[ant]

30. I hate tolerance

People - gays, women, minorities - should not settle for "tolerance." I don't want to be "tolerated," like some annoying fly that buzzes around but can't be killed.

If anything, that's EXACTLY how I feel with Democrats sometimes. "Oooh, don't talk about issue X, we can't risk it right now." While I can see their point, it's frustrating. And in the end, I know the Republican party would not "tolerate" me at all. Someone noted that Democrats tell you to get to the back of the bus, but Republicans won't even let you on the goddamn bus, so pick your battles.

By the way, how are Republicans critical of Bush doing these days? I doubt the Reps talking about the Libertarian ticket are treated any better than the Dems who talk about the Nader ticket. Toeing (sp?) the party line is required by some elements of all parties.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. THANKYOU TIMES TEN THOUSAND!

:thumbsup:

[Warren DeMontague]

46. The Risk of Issue X

Personally, I've had that debate with certain people, recently, around issues like gay marriage. Some have said that now is not a good time for "gays" to be pushing the marriage button.. Well, I don't know if there is ever a time that seems good for civil rights, and, besides, the idea that "gays" are a monolithic entity is as ridiculous as the assertion that "men" are, or "african americans" or "DU members". If I had been waiting 40 years to get married, I wouldn't want someone telling me to wait until after the election. I live in the Bay Area, and I used to think Gavin Newsom was a blow-dried yuppie sap. I told my SF Friends to vote for Gonzales. But the guy has shown guts for standing up for what's right. So this idea that "we" (who, again, are not a monolith) shouldn't push certain issues at certain times is absurd.

In terms of the board, I do think it's relevant to question (just like it's relevant to question everything) whether people are getting worked up just because someone else has pushed their buttons... but I would never say that now "isn't a good time" to raise certain substantive issues just because of the election.

[troublemaker]

31. Most political people are dictators at heart

It comes with the territory. The consensus mongers here are just Stalinist types -- ignore them.

The beauty of our side (whatever the hell that is) is that we are all so narcissistic that we can't get our shit together to be real nazis. The right-wingers have it in their blood... they're often seen as sadists, but they're mostly masochists who get off on submission and effacement of self.

[flaminbats]

32. some people say democrats are too tolerant....

Tolerance is a great thing, but not at the expense of tolerance. I am a democrat in part because of a father who had no tolerance for bigotry and intolerance. He taught me at a young age that I was no better than someone who was different or worse off, and he always punished me for making fun of others because of their income or appearance.

As a child I felt guilty and angry for his harshness, but as an adult time has shown me he was right. We may tolerate the intolerant, but they will never tolerate us. Unless stopped, the flames of intolerance may consume us all. I now accept individuals with different views from me, whether they are Democrats, Republicans, or Independents. But I don't accept anyone who lacks tolerance for different backgrounds, political parties, and beliefs.

[Zen]

34. I'm not sure this place represents the Democratic Party in any general

sense. I am here to help uncover the truth about the dreadful people in the White House. I usually vote for Democrats, but I am registered as an independant so I don't represent any party per se.

[Pithlet]

39. Are you really getting thrown to the wolves

or are you having some long, deeply held notions challenged? That can really feel like a slap in the face, and can trigger a defensive reaction. Since you haven't included what the issues were and how you strayed from them, or how far, it's hard to say. You say you used to be a Republican; can it be that your background still influences some of your beliefs, and there are some here who are questioning those?

It really is okay to disagree here at DU. Hell, I do it all the time. Sometimes it pisses me off, but sometimes it makes me think. I've had my views changed here by getting a different perspective on things.

[UdoKier]

47. The party is very big-tent, DU is decidedly not.

If you fail to toe the PC line on several specific issues, you're OUT.

I live here in California in a VERY democratic area, and there is a myrriad of opinion, much of it NON-PC, and would not be tolerated here.

But good luck finding another liberal board that's not swamped with freepers.

Actually, the mikemalloy.net boards are much more tolerant of differing , non-pc opinions, but it is much more slow-moving and less user friendly. Also, they tolerate repugs so long as they are not blatantly abusive or obnoxious...


Yahoo boards are a total free-for-all, with the most deranged freepers posting craziness. But it's fun to be able to refute them without having to be polite at all...

[ibegurpard]

50. This board is FILLED with assholes and fools

And I'm sure many of those assholes and fools feel the same way about me. :P
Look, every person, no matter how great, and every movement, no matter how worthy, is going to have assholes behind it. If you don't trust your own instincts as to the right thing to do and let these people sway you, then you are lost.

[leftofthedial]

51. can you be more specific?

stray from what party line about what and you get thrown to which wolves?

I know pro-gun Democrats, pro-life Democrats, pro-death penalty Democrats . . .

The Repukes have the nonnegotiable dogma, seems to me.