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pdmike Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:53 PM
Original message
A Conservative Analyzes Tort Law
I'm sorry - I just can't pass this up. The following appeared on the Hannity Forum today:

Apparently some caller asked Rush if he had ever sued anyone and Rush said he couldn't remember. Someone posted this on the Hannity Forum and it elicited a number of responses, most of them critical of Rush for wimping out on his answer. The issue, of course, had to do with the conservative mistrust of the court system and anyone who uses it to resolve a dispute.

And then, here comes this CLASSIC response from one of our conservative friends in defense of Rush and also in condemnation of trial lawyers:

"This socialist was comparing apples to oranges.The distinction and debate is all about frivilous lawsuits by greasy lawyers with ridiculous crazy awards,like billions of dollars.

So what if Rush sued someone.The difference in litigation is suing to get back exactly what you lost,which is legitimate.John Edwards sues people right out of their jobs, breaks companies and destroys lives.Suing for one billion dollars and getting it because you decided to smoke is frivilous and just plain insane.You smoked,your fault.Take responsibility.

If my neighbour built a fence on my land and excavated,refused to move his stuff off my land I should be able to sue and make him pay for removal and legal fees. Not a billion dollare reward.Common sense.

Edwards used junk science to win massive awards for nothing.

There`s a common sense difference."

Let's see if I have this straight - it's OK for Rush to sue someone. Of course, we don't know who he was suing, or what the suit was about but, hey, if it's RUSH doing the suing, then it's gotta be OK.
Rush (the poster notes) only sues to get back exactly what he lost, "which is legitimate."

Edwards, on the other hand, is a horrendous villain, who used junk science to win massive awards for nothing.

Life is sure simple if you are on the right of it, isn't it?

pdmike






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lucky777 Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. All this talk of frivilous lawsuits is a smokescreen from big
companies. I am a law professor; we are constantly getting emails from 'think tanks' talking about the high costs imposed by greedy trial lawyers.

The reality is this: only two or three percent of people who are harmed actually file suit, and mostly they lose. Every once in a long while a plaintiff actually wins and it gets huge press.

Take tobacco: Did you know that the tobacco industry held off lawsuits for twenty years using the most vicious techniques possible, literally delaying cases till plaintiffs died?

Very few people ever win 'billions' Check the stats on wal-mart: they almost never lose an actual verdict.

It is all bullshit; a corporation will sue you to collect a $200 judgment on a bill for telephone services that they never rendered, yet that is never hailed as a 'litigation explosion'
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Hear, hear...

I once worked for a medical malpractice insurance company. Our job was to settle the biggies. We'd take the "small potatoes" (read: they can't even hope to win!) to court. The fact is that the company I worked for had some "small potato" cases kick their a$$. That always amazed me. The research for the case was intense, brutal, and calculated. "Can they win? No? Okay, let's go to court." Then a jury would upset the apple cart and award amazing damages...sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. My opinion? "You pays your money and you takes your chances." The defense lawyers gambled, and lost. So is that MY fault? Nope.

If people knew how many cases are "settled" or "thrown out," long before they make it to a jury, most folks would not be for tort reform. The barest minimum of plaintiffs actually get through to challenge the corporate lawyers. When they do, and when they win, it's BIG news. And rightfully so. They traversed a carefully laid minefield, and beat it back. Now, THAT is news. These so-called litiguous "winners" are part of a very, very elite group of plaintiffs.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Well, I started out as an economist and...
ended up spending 20 years as an insurance underwriter, so I have my own perspective on the whole thing.

TB's Law of Unintended Consequences says that you can't limit frivolous lawsuits without limiting the rights of those actually harmed.

TB's First Corrolary says when you can't limit frivolity, it will naturally exist, and its effects have to be dealt in other ways. Fortunately, it tends to be self-limiting. Lawyers will rarely waste their time on bullshit suits, and courts can, and often do, throw them out.

My experience is primarily in maritime law, to the extent I had to understand it, and I can come up with a week's worth of stories about the abuses of Jones Act claims and amazing definitions of unseaworthiness. However, even as we saw the law take some very strange turns, no one ever claimed shipowners liabilities were sending them down the tubes. Their financial problems, when they had them, were almost always from other sources, and while they always complained about insurance premiums, that was one of their smaller costs.

From an insurance viewpoint, we were rarely interested in the huge claims. They were few and far between, and covered by reinsurance. Before 9/11, reinsurers weren't all that worried about the big ones, either. (Much has changed in the past couple of years.)

What we did care about was the probability of future claims, and were constantly polishing our crystal balls. The thing that scared us the most was the possibility of unanticipated changes in the law or hazards that would drastically change the usual flow of anticipated claims.

Because of some structural changes in the insurance industry, there are a lot of small businesses and individuals who are seeing their premiums skyrocket. They tend to dismiss the fact that often their premiums tumbled for years, and are just getting back to "normal." Large companies are rarely affected by his, and are often the cause of it, since they have retained their premiums by forming captive insurance companies, starving the real insurance companies of income.

Probably the most important thing to note is that most people who talk about this have no real data. Insurance company claims data is proprietary, and you can't get the true numbers, You can get public records of suits filed and judgments rendered, but you can't see how the individual companies receive and pay the bulk of their claims.

The huge numbers of lawsuits filed is a strawman. Most of them don't go to trial and are settled. However, it is simply the nature of the beast to file a suit when the claim is made. It doesn't cost much, and is a natural part of the negotiation with the company. The number of tort claims filed seems to pale next to the number of contract disputes anyway. Curiously, no one has seen fit to whine lately about lawyers in contract disputes and what they are doing to the cost of doing business.

Most of the claims do have some legitimacy, but the companies don't have the resources to properly investigate each one, so there will always be a certain amount of fraud or waste.

Bottom line-- talk about sleazy personal injury lawyers is bullshit. I've come across some shyster thieves and ambulance chasers over the years, but most of them are just doing the job the system set them up to do, and are doing it very well.






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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. Gonna have to do a global search on pacer to find Tokyo Rush's
lawsuit!

These guys are idiots. The real trash lawsuits are the corporations suing corporations. Johne Deere suing another tractor/mower company for using a color green that was similiar to their green.

Idiots, bumbling, stumbling evil idiots.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. Why don't they just admit that they don't like it when people sues corp-
orations, regardless of how much merit the claim has.

I posted this as an OP. It's a story about a bank rightfully suing their lawyers for malpractice. They're recovering their economic loss PLUS a punitive award, because the lawfirm's actions were so outrageous.

I bet there isn't a single RW'er who objects to the bank getting what they actually lost PLUS a little extra to make law firms think twice about pulling what this firm pulled (regardless of how many jobs are lost at that firm or how it jacks up the price of malpractice insurance and the cost of doing business for lawyers). But those same RW'ers would be outraged if you replaced "bank" with "individual" and "law firm" with, say, widget manufacturer or hospital.

What's the difference?

Here's my earlier post:

Bank sues their lawyers for malpractice and get $4.4 mil, plus heavy puntive damages yet to be determined.

A Philadelphia law firm was hit with a verdict of more than $4.4 million in a legal malpractice case after a Philadelphia Common Pleas judge concluded that the firm had provided a false opinion letter to a bank prior to the closing of a $7.3 million loan.

At the close of a non-jury trial on Friday, Judge Gene D. Cohen ruled that Abrahams Lowenstein & Bushman should also be hit with punitive damages because the conduct of its lawyers was "reckless" and "outrageous."

Cohen ordered that the plaintiff, Republic First Bank of Philadelphia, is now entitled to discovery on issues relating to punitive damages and scheduled an Aug. 3 hearing to assess the punitive award.

...

Rosen told the judge that the evidence at trial showed that the Abrahams Lowenstein lawyers knew before the loan was funded that a portion of that loan that was to be secured by a $4.2 million leasehold mortgage was not enforceable and was void {because the leaseholder did not seek the consent of the landlord}."

{The law firm hired by the bank had a long-standing business relationship with the mortgage leasholder, so they lied to the bank -- their client -- to help their longstanding client, who did declare bankruptcy leaving the bank unable to take possession of the lease which had secured the loan.}

http://biz.yahoo.com/law/040708/00e212858cd4815ab3f349aa63c29596_1.html
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Every time I hear the phrase "common sense"...
my bullshit indicator goes off.

Common sense is important, but more often it is simply used by the ignorant or propagandists to oversimplify simplify a complex situation
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