What do you do with someone who refuses to accept facts?

[lapislzi]

There's a woman in my office about whom I've posted before. She is the worst kind of calcified conservative, and it is becoming clearer to me by the day that this woman, who appears intelligent enough and functions quite effectively in her job and society, will not accept facts about her *boy's* failures.

She tells me I'm making things up. I present her with newspaper evidence, from "real" newspapers like the NYT or the Washington Post, and she tells me that there's a conspiracy to discredit the president, that it's all made up. I won't even go near Michael Moore with her...she thinks he's a dangerous wacko who needs to be locked up.

When I ask her to defend bush's record, she refuses. She tells me that my mind is closed and there's no point in discussing the matter. She cannot come up with one shred of evidence to support her boy, because none exists. Still, she willfully ignores the facts when I present them to her. Of course, when a Murdoch instrument presents material unfavorable to Kerry or Edwards, she'll gleefully descend on my office, waving the screed, demanding that I defend my candidate and my convictions.

What do you do with someone who refuses to see what's directly in front of her? What does it take to get through to someone like that?

Anybody else have a similar experience of the willfully ignorant?

[Roon]

1. Ignore her

I had a mother-in-law once that was like that about EVERYTHING. Not just politics..drove me nuts.

[NMDemDist2]

2. I haven't read this yet, but it may shed some light on why folks are so

entrenched in their mindset

http://www.zogby.com/2004Olear-Zogby-ValuesReport.pdf

[Lancer]

3. Yes, every day

on a message board I moderate.

Last night, when faced with the facts about *'s reading of "The Pet Goat," she said it was an "urban legion."

BWWWWAAAAAAHHHHAAAA

Minds are like parachutes. . .

[billybob537]

4. Those are the Kool-Aide drinkers

they are near impossible to educate. It usually takes a major family tragedy; like losing your pension to Enron or Polaroid to open the door. Once the door opens in their mind it's like a light went on.
My oldest brother was one of these until the invasion of Iraq. Then he just lost it. He was one minute the ultra conservative. The next he was an open minded independent. This is why I think Bush* will fail. Many people have had awakenings. Everyday there are thousands of people waking up.
Wait for the moment, and welcome your friend aboard.

[Philostopher]

5. If my mother-in-law weren't retired,

I'd think you worked with her. I won't discuss the stuff around her, anymore.

I also work with a woman who listens to Rush, Hannity and some local wingnut all day long in her office, just loud enough that I can hear the strident tones at my desk, though I can't actually hear the words (small favors). She hasn't brought up a political topic with me since she tried the 'Al Gore invented the Internet' line on me, and I smiled and looked her in the eye and said, "the funniest thing about that is, he never said it." She never brings it up around me, which is fine by me. I like my job, and I want to be able to keep it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. Quit wasting your time. She's beyond reach.

[lil-petunia]

7. sure nuff, boss

My father is kinda like that. He thought Goldwater was a liberal and Atilla was a socialist.

He does admit that shrub is losing his leaves, though.

[dennis4868]

8. My wife's aunt and uncle....

are like that as well. They don't believe that Clinton stopped a terrorist attack when the milleneum came in 2000 at the LAX Airport.....they say I am making it up. They will not believe anything negative about Bush no matter how many sources there are for a story....they will simply say that it is being made up to make Bush look bad...I only wish they would have said the same thing in the 1990s when Clinton was Prez!

[Az]

9. Trust

Its a complex path and you really have to ask yourself if its worth it. But the only way to crack open this sort of mind is to establish trust with them. You will not be able to force your opinion on them. This does not mean you back off. Stay strong in your positions but do not force. When asked be honest about what you believe. But focus instead on finding out who they are.

After some time figuring out their positions tailor any discussions within the context of their positions with the aim of creating cognitive disonence. That is find aspects of their beliefs that contradict each other.

What you are facing here is belief. Logic and reason simply cannot pierce fervant belief on their own. Your coworker has created a complete world view and it functins for her. There is no reason in her mind to apply logic and reason in a dismantling form to her view.

The mind works by weighting experience and ideas with emotional values. In order for something to pierce a strongly held belief it must have more emotional weight than the established beliefs. Simply logic will not do it on its own.

There are a couple of ways this balance can be changed. A sever emotional trama (ie the soldiers mother in F9/11). Something that so totally impacts their world that it shuffles the balance of emotions in their mind can create an opening for them to begin to dismantle their beliefs with logic.

Trama is never really the best way to go and you can't sit around hoping for something horrible to happen to someone anyway (ick). The other way to procede is the long route. Using trust and connection you find the contradictory aspects of their beliefs and you set them against each other in her own mind. This cognitive disonence creates a vacuum that will draw in the higher order functions of logic and reason to force a rexam of their premises.

There is a third way but that involves finding a means of overriding the emotional value they have in their beliefs in the presentation of your argument. This is not pleasant and not really feasible. It basically is what we call torture.

In the end you will not be able to force their position to change. It really does have to start from within. The best you can do is be there for them and nudge them in the right direction as best you can. Understand the signs you are looking for to make the difference and act on them when the opportunity arrises.

[lapislzi]

16. Thanks, Az

A reasoned perspective, as always. Yes, I will continue to drop little "logic bombs" whenever I can and hope that the contradictory oscillations finally overcome her.

I have already attempted to set the parameters of the discussion (she hates that): NO CLINTON, no ad hominem, no discussion about anybody who's not running for office. Issues only. That's when she gets disgusted and walks out.

I just don't get her emotional attachment to bush (I think it has to do with that cute little tax cut that put $350 in her pocket), but I will try very hard to get my head that far up my ass.

[Bonhomme Richard]

10. Someone here once said...........

that there was a basic character flaw in an individual like that. I take it a step further and liken it to trying to talk to an alcoholic. There is no way they are going to listen to what you say until they reach rock bottom. That would mean politically that the country and economy would have to be completely in the toilet for them to recognize the truth.
That philosophy at least make me feel better when dealing with people like that and it explains a lot.

[fudge stripe cookays]

11. Does she have any draftable age kids?

Next time she argues with you, just say,

"Well, since you're so behind this administration, it's 'upstanding' citizens like yourself that need to be donating the troops to go fight for it. I'll be listening anxiously to hear when your son/daughter/niece/nephew is called up to fight."

The only way these poeple will ever wake up is when the war hits them THAT close to home. Look at the epiphany Lila Lipscomb had. I don't wish this type of pain on anyone, but they refuse to acknowledge there's a problem as long as it only affects others.

[mcar]

12. People like this will never admit they are wrong

My brother is exactly like that. He e-mails me repuke crap, I debunk it point by point and he says "I don't care, I just don't like (Hillary or whoever he's defaming)." They are not interested in truth or reality. W* is their guy, liberals are un-American and that's that.

Franken's Ditto head friend is just like that. Have you heard him on The O'Franken Factor? Franken or Katherine completely tear apart whatever Rush says and they use hard facts. The Dittohead friend always says something like "well if that's what you want to believe..." These people have been brainwashed to think there is no difference between opinion and fact.

Give up, she's probably hopeless.

[Squeech]

13. Offer her a tall cool glass of phlogiston

Seriously, next time she wanders into your office brandishing a copy of the Murdoch fishwrap, tell her you're not even looking at it unless and until she looks at yours. That there's no point in discussing anything unless there's an equivalent give and take.

[leftofthedial]

14. that's the neocon base

it is religious to them--just as irrational (or non-rational, if you prefer) and dogmatic a belief as any religious zealot would have about their chosen deity.

I encounter this over and over.

There are numerous paleoconservatives though who have changed or are changing their views of the bushgang and who are troubled that their party has been hijacked by monsters and sold a bill of goods.

[CWebster]

15. there is partisan blindness in the Democratic party too

as indicated by the vast majority of the Left who oppose the war, but are willing to overlook that small detail in supporting the canidacy of centrist Dems who supported the same thing this woman supports. All this while attacking as traitors those who don't drink the koolaid.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. and those who are militantly third party

who insist that people who agree with them but won't agree to their methods either aren't listening, haven't read the right sorces or have drunk some kind of kool aid.

"Democrats" don't do any one thing. We are not a monolithic party and you don't convince anyone of the wisdom of your point of view with the continued attacks on "democrats".

[CWebster]

25. "militantly third party"?

You know I am|was a Dean supporter, cheswick. Your personal crusade against Nader doesn't leave much room for much else.
Talk about closed.

There is a contradiction in this line:

"Democrats" don't do any one thing. We are not a monolithic party and you don't convince anyone of the wisdom of your point of view with the continued attacks on "democrats".

Think you can see your way to figuring it out?

[Hamlette]

21. partisan blindness in Dem party

the difference is we know Kerry is not our ideal candidate. Hell, the only perfect president would be someone who thought exactly like I do.

It is a matter of the lesser of two evils but with a democrat I get someone who has basically the same world view I do.

The right felt exactly the same way about Clinton. They hate everything about him and couldn't understand why anyone would defend him.

The best advice is from Az. Not only because you might make headway with righties but because you might come to understand where they are coming from. The polarization in the country is due in part to our inability to see each other's point of view. At some point we have to agree on the values we hold in common and heal some wounds.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. laugh at her

just laugh at her.

[porphyrian]

18. Expose Her To The Population At Large

Look, everyone! There's someone who's intentionally ignorant! How stupid is that?!

[slackmaster]

20. I encounter willfully ignorant people every day

After a while I ignore them, let them wallow in their problem.

[Demonaut]

22. nothing, wasted effort....she's the kind who will claim she new all along

that bush was a criminal after he's taken off in leg chains and imprisoned....

[bullimiami]

23. Dont beat your head against a wall.

Lapis

Its her problem and her failure as a human being.
Dont let it get to you. I like to play with these fossils. Get her worked up and enjoy it.

[Shopaholic]

24. I'm arguing now with a GOP ass . . .

on-line at another totally unpolitical newsgroup forum. He will not admit he's wrong, even though I've posted links to concrete evidence that he is wrong. You know--the usual crap--the NY Times, Washington Post, and LA Times are all "liberal news organizations" so any information from them is unreliable and all lies. If it's not that, then he changes the subject and demands "proof" of something else. So in order, the whole argument has gone back and forth like this:
1) First he denies the proof 2) then he attacks the source 3) then he changes the subject and wants new proof of an entirely off-topic subject and 4) then he attacks me personally. I'm just about at my wit's end with this guy at this point but I refuse to let him have the last word.

[tnlefty]

26. I call them my relatives and neighbors...sigh

They are willfully ignorant and they are quite content to remain that way. I still try to inform my mom, but for the most part they aren't going to have any part of it. A woman who works with my spouse commented the other day "at least we'll be getting combat pay and that'll be nice" about her spouse, 54, who is being activated in a guard unit. She was also unaware that the US has a large arsenal of chem, bio and nuclear weapons. She's still 100% behind this action in Iraq and thinks that it is totally justified.

[AngryAmish]

27. Crush her

[truth2power]

28. Don't waste your time.

IT'S NOT ABOUT FACTS!!! Sorry to shout, and no disrespect to you. Lapis, but their beliefs are lodged in the primitive brain, not in the cerebral cortex which could be accessed with logic and reason.

These people are being operated on by cult programmers i.e. Rush, Hannity, Fuxx News.

I don't know how cult de-programming works. Perhaps there is someone here who is knowlegable in that area and could tell us what's involved. From what I've seen in various made-for-tv movies, however, it seems that first you have to get them away from the influence of the programmers, a near impossible task as things now stand.

I'm not saying one shouldn't ever try to educate people. MoPaul seems to have done some excellent work with his dad, for example. But keep in mind that this is a long-term endeavor, and IMHO, those who finally come around were teetering already.

When you encounter one of these hard-core types, just keep in mind that it's less than 4 months until the election. It's probably not realistic to think you'll be able to change them in time, so you might as well put your energies on something that has a grater chance of success.

[Sweetpea]

29. Agree with her until all her poison backfires.