F-911 - Second Time Around

[AVID]

Took my 15yr old daughter to her first showing of f911 last night. My second time.
"grrrrrrrrr" was her general response and "can I sneak in to vote in Nov."

I am the kinda reader/viewer that needs to go back over pages or rewind scenes, etc, that have a lot of vital information for the story. Although the messages in f911 are not very complicated, my second viewing allowed me to see more connections of scenes, musical threads, and common flow.

I recommend two viewings on the big screen.

Anyone else seen it twice with different views?

[katym]

1. I know the feeling

I havent even seen it once yet, b/c it is not playing at any of the 4 theatres within an hour of me (::: kicks severely republican central illinois ::: ) but I do know what you mean. Watching once, you seem to absorb a lot, but you're still watching the movie for the whole drift. Go through again, and now that you know the movie, you have the time to look for things, to hear and notice all the facts, connections, and like you said, flow.

[Skittles]

21. hey katm

welcome to the DU

Susan
native of Rantoul

[southlandshari]

2. much stronger 2nd time around

Becase we took Republican-leaning friends with us on opening night, I think I spent as much time trying to measure their response as I did focusing on the film.

My husband and I went alone to a matinee a week later, and I was literally shaking with rage by the time it was over. Even being more prepared for what was to come, scene by scene, didn't help soften the blows.

[MidwestTransplant]

3. What did you friends think?

[southlandshari]

4. mixed reactions...still developing

Both husband and wife had served in the military in the past. One is unlikely to vote for * in Nov. now. The other won't admit it, but has obviously been challenged.

The parts of the movie that seemed to hit home most with them - the Bush-Saudi ties (the least emotional part of the movie for me); the military recruiters' lies to poor kids; and the scenes where Moore tried to get those in Congress to sign their own kids up for Iraq duty. The humor that most of us on DU loved in the movie often seemed like cheap shots to our fence-sitting friends.

I think we often overlook the fact that the majority of Americans fall into the same category as these friends of ours. Most people are neither DU'ers nor Freepers. Most of those still saying they will vote for Bush are just going with what the mainstream media gives them (if they listen/watch at all). Most are far more concerned with the price of daycare and health insurance than international politics.

[HuskerDem]

33. That scene did exactly what it should do.

Make moderates and conservatives and bushbots uncomfortable about

A: sacrificing their own loved ones
B: the fact that those who sent them there were not willing to sacrifice their own.

[riverwalker]

5. my private viewing

I went the second time last week when it expanded to more theaters. Went to a 7:30 showing on the Weds. Spiderman opened. The first time was on opening weekend, had to drive a bit, theater was pretty full.
Anyway, at the second time, I was the only one there. The ONLY one.
I really went to see more audience reaction, but being the only one was nice in a way, because my reactions were not influenced by crowds. So I bought a bucket of popcorn and put my feet up, was able to mutter "bastards" and "Cheney-ers" all I wanted.
The second time, I noticed Lilas face, the contrast before and after her son died. It's really dramatic, like a light went out.
I was able to appreciate the art of the film instead of the message the second time.

[Worthless Teen]

8. F9-11

Well I saw the movie just a few days ago, and here's my take:

First of all, I'm a conservative-leaning independent who enjoys getting the left-wing opinion here(so this may be my last post on DU for all I know), I come from a ridiculously right wing family, but I myself am not sold on Bush (in fact I'm pretty fed up with him on certain issues)...I'm 18 and this is the first election in which I can vote, so I look forward to taking a look at both sides and making up my mind Nov 2. That being said, naturally I went and saw F911. I went with a very conservative friend of mine (who was wearing his Bush-Cheney '04 shirt in the theatre- that didn't go over real well) and I found it very interesting, but I can see how many in the media view it as propaganda and discard its credibility because Moore seems to neglect some key facts. First of all, he mentions that W's cousin was the exec at FNC who called FLA for Bush on election night, hence causing all the other networks to switch their calls. But he neglects to mention that the other networks had already called FLA for Gore an hour before the polls in the more conservative Panhandle region, thus discouraging many there not to vote. A small detail, but one which brings down the overall credible appeal of the movie. The other portion of the movie which seemed to be a glaring misrepresentation was Moore's depiction of pre-war Iraq. Kids flying kites, weddings, parties- it all seemed so peaceful, when, in reality Saddam was raping and murdering young girls and gassing his own people. Moore neglects this aspect of pre-war Iraq, and I think the movie's credibility takes a hit because of it. As for the war, I'm growing more and more opposed to it everyday. My older brother is a West Point grad and is in Iraq right now, and everytime a report comes across the TV about soldiers killed in Iraq, it seems as if my whole family holds its collective breath. So I guess I'm ardently in support of our troops, but increasingly uncertain about this war. But as for F911, I found it interesting and eye-opening, but I think a more balanced look at certain issues would have increased its credibility in mainstream America.

[Love Bug]

9. Glad you saw it

Glad you and your friend saw F911 and found it eye-opening. I don't agree with you about the "lack of balance" because this movie IS the balance for all of the right-wing slanted news reporting we've been exposed to for the past several years. However, I'm not going to get into that with you but state that even though you have some reservations, at least you were willing to see it, which is more than can be said for most of the wingnuts out there who have condemned F911 without having seen it.

What did your friend think?

Welcome to DU! Stick around for awhile--you'll be able to vote for the first time this fall and you'll find much here to interest you, especially the information about a possible draft next year if Bush gets re-elected. If you are male, that will affect you directly, won't it?

[Worthless Teen]

11. My friend came into the movie

with the preconceived notion that Moore was a liar and a traitor so he didn't really believe any of it anyways, but I could tell the part about the mother who lost her son in Iraq had an effect on him, as it scared the s--- out of me since my brother is over there. After the movie he managed to get into an argument with some of the people sitting behind us, and in the words of his ideological hero, concluded the conversation with "F%^@ off!"

[mike1963]

10. I'm giving you a tentative welcome to DU, but some of your post bothers

me...you say you're 18 yet have some recollections from the 2000 elections that I must say seem awfully "clear" for a 14 year-old...and
(this is a compliment) your spelling and grammar are much better than one would expect from most 18 year old people. You won't find many, if any DUers who are not totally supportive of our troops - we know they've been put into a bad situation by a cabal of crusading liars. If you keep an open mind, you won't have any problems here. ;-)

[Worthless Teen]

12. Well,

I could scan you my driver's license if you'd like. :)

As for spelling and grammar, I write for the school newspaper, so maybe that explains it.

As for my recollections of the 2000 election, I come from a very political family (barf alert for DUers- they donate a lot of money to the GOP, always go to the convention) and naturally we watched news coverage of the 2000 election very closely. I remember the night pretty well as I stayed up until 2AM watching all the shenanigans. I've always been interested in politics, but the 2000 election was the first one I really followed with great interest.

[Swamp Rat]

13. Stick around son, you might learn a thing or two.

If you help us defeat Bush, you may not get drafted next year. As for your friend, tell him to join the military tomorrow and go fight for his prezident's oil. The more guys like him that love Bush, war, and killing that go join up, the more likely my cousin can come back home from Iraq. I hope your brother returns home safely.

Welcome to DU :toast:

[Worthless Teen]

14. Sorry to sound like a wussy pompous dick...

...but as long as I go to college (I'll be a HS Sr. next year) I can get a deferremnt from the draft, right?

[MidwestTransplant]

16. Not under the new draft rules that were promulaged after Vietnam

[Swamp Rat]

17. Nope, no more college deferments. Tell all your friends.

Let's kick Bush&Co out of office so that the graduating class of 2005 will NOT be the first class drafted since Vietnam. I'm am worried about you guys because your class will be the first to go. Here's one way you can avoid becoming cannon fodder:

http://www.objector.org/advice/contents.html

Peace to you brother.

[Worthless Teen]

18. Dammit!!!!!!!

Not that I wouldn't go to war for my country, but right now I really don't see a justifying cause.

[faithnotgreed]

27. thats a crucial distinction. thank you for saying it - "no justification"

[Swamp Rat]

32. If the enemy was coming up the Mississippi River, I'd be out there with a

shotgun or even a bow and quiver full of arrows if I had to, but NOTHING justifies going to Iraq that has been presented so far. I'm really pissed because I have family and friends over there, and they're telling me "GET US THE FUCK OUTTA HERE NOW!"

Man, please tell your friends to think twice before joining up right now. Tell them to come to DU and read our posts and spend some time thinking about what is really going on.

Again, welcome to DU Worthless Teen. Invite more of your friends to check out DU. I discovered DU back in 2001 because of the "Top Ten Conservative Idiots" that was linked from Buzzflash.com (another great site for getting news). You'll find the "Bob Boudelang" column is pretty funny too.

[thebigidea]

15. really? right before Shock and Awe, Saddam was gassing and raping?

did he gas first, then rape? Or was it rape, then gassing? Simultaneously? Do let me know what incidents of gassing and raping went on in the days leading up to Shock and Awe. Hell, for a decade before it as well...

SO you're saying kids didn't fly kites in Iraq, or that boys didn't get haircuts? Waiters didn't smile, people didn't get married? What's disengenuous was presenting them solely as stock footage of Saddam Hussein firing a rifle during that relentless march to war.

If you want a balanced look, there's always FOX news. That has tons of credibility in mainstream America.

And you'll be pleased to know that there will be no college deferments this time around. Sorry, no "other priorities."

[Worthless Teen]

19. ...

Well, I certainly don't see FNC as having a "balanced" view of things, nor does most, if any of the mainstream media for that matter.

Look, I'm not saying that kids didn't fly kites or that people didn't get married in pre-war Iraq. What I am saying is that if MM really wanted to make this movie credible in mainstream America, he could have at least presented both sides of the situation in pre-war Iraq, and the fact is that Saddam was a ruthless dictator who oppressed his people. Moore never alluded to this. Now whether it was justifiable for the US to send 150,000 troops there to "liberate" is up for discussion.

[Logansquare]

24. My take on the street scenes in Iraq from F9/11

We already knew about the gassing of the Kurds (and had all seen the pictures), and a lot of very detailed reports of the human rights abuses under Sadaam. Our government and the media made sure we were aware of these (but only after Sadaam's relationship with our government deteriorated). We the American people had a right to understand the full ramifications of starting this war, and of bombing Baghdad. But our media didn't show us the people sipping tea, or the children playing, or the young couples starting life together as couples. We needed to be able to make a choice--is it worth incinerating these innocent civilians in order to *maybe* capture Sadaam and defeat the Republican Guard? As it turns out, the bombing campaign didn't help us catch Sadaam, and the Republican Guard melted away into the city and is currently killing our soldiers three at a time. The number of civilians killed during the bombing campaigns is not know exactly, but it is surely in the tens of thousands. Moore was showing us what we had the right to see, along with the pictures of the murdered Kurdish villagers. We had a right to be better than Sadaam, but our government wouldn't let us make that choice.

[hippywife]

35. Absolutely

This animation of Symbolman's is one of the most memorable for me because it keeps me grounded in the fact that these people were making the most of their lives even in an oppressive environment and most were living rather normally. These are some of the most beautiful, open, and happy faces. It really saddens me when I watch it because I can't help but wonder where they all are now.

Iraqi Kids:
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/iraqkids.html

[thebigidea]

25. it looks like "mainstream America" is finding it credible without your OK

[Worthless Teen]

28. Well,

I certainly found F911 informative and eye-opening as I said before, but I believe that scenes like I described in my original post give MM's opponent ammunition to attack him.

[HuskerDem]

38. I guess WT is looking for a body count

I've been there and paying attention for over 25 years. For every nation we "liberate" from a "ruthless dictator".............. there are 6 - 17 we ACTIVELY support.

I'm not gong to do your homework for you sweetheart. That's what fucking google is for. Dive into your deepest fears. Or be a CHICKENWAWK forever.

[leesa]

22. Too Funny! Saddam was raping and murdering young girls and gassing his

own people. Ummmm....during a single battle in the Iran-Iraq war, during which WE supplied weapons of mass destruction to Iraq, BOTH sides used nerve gas. The condition of the bodies and the survivor reports of an almond odor, led investigators to conclude that the gas was the Iranian gas since the Iraqi gas was not cyanide based (blue color to skin and almond odor)
I believe it was his sons who were into the young girls...could be wrong there.


Also, did you know the US has a higher execution rate than Iraq for quite a few years running now according to Amnesty International. Check it out on their web site.


And turn off Faux!

[Worthless Teen]

26. What exactly are you trying to say

That the pre-war Iraqi people were better off than us in the United States? Now I'm no fan of George Bush, but I'll take him over Saddam Hussein any day.

[Cookie wookie]

30. he neglects to mention . . . .

WT, you've brought up some interesting points in this post. The film, though, was intended to show what has not been seen or discussed in the mainstream corporate media. For instance, the call by Bush's cousin on Fox. I'd wager many people didn't know that. And the scenes of Iraqi life juxtaposed to the hyperbolic war build up by the media: did any of the media show scenes of this kind during their cheerleading for Shock and Awe? No. We saw nothing of the sort. We were all told, as a matter of fact it was hammered home 24/7 that Saddam was evil. What the people of this nation needed to see was balance, and Moore's film showed us another side. Many of the people who would be blown to bits by Shock and Awe were innocent civilians and had the same human face and day to day lives that we have.

That Saddam was a ruthless and evil dictator is undisputed. However, many people around the world think the same of our current leaders in the US. Certainly we need as a nation to at least think about the consequences of our actions, and how if the same thing was done in reverse, what that would mean to us! How the Iraqi mother and the US mother were the same, the only difference being geography. The Iraqi mother wasn't the enemy, after all.

But back to what you said, "I think a more balanced look ....would have increased it credibility." The film was intended to show the public a whole different viewpoint that many may never have considered or seen before because their thinking and understanding is dominated by the right wing corporate media in America, which is as controlled and biased and propagandistic as anything in the former Soviet Union, China, or Hitler's Germany ever was.

[Swamp Rat]

36. Yep

"... right wing corporate media in America, which is as controlled and biased and propagandistic as anything in the former Soviet Union, China, or Hitler's Germany ever was."

You said it!

Welcome to DU! :toast:

[realisticphish]

39. first of all

I'm glad you come to DU. It's nice to see intelligent conservatives who are willing to look at the other side's viewpoint. Also, as a fellow 18 yr-old, going into my second year in college, I am also faced with the fact that college enrollment means squat with concern to the draft. Anyway, a lot of people seem to forget that Saddam was gassing people and raping young girls back when we was our buddy. Everyone accepts that Saddam is scum; but no one on the right (sorry about generalizing) cared when he was OUR scum. And I don't think the movie is intended to say that SADDAM should not have been bombed. It's saying that all the innocent civilians who were murdered by our "precision" bombing did NOT deserve to die because our attack dog slipped his leash.

[lanparty]

40. It was a polemic, neither propoganda nor journalism ...

Moore was telling one side of the story. He's unabashed on that point.

The Bush administration has millions of dollars that goes into producing it's "side of the story". It has an entire news network that praises his every action.

Moore never said that Saddam didn't torture anyone. He didn't say that Saddam never raped or murdered anyone. We already got that story from the Bush administration and his surrogates. Moore is showing you that people actually lived and worked under Saddam's regime. Poeple had weddings and birthday parties. They had children and they loved those children.

One does not need to show "both sides" in order to be truthful and accurate. You've believed everything told to you by Fox News, and they've only told one side of the story. Why not believe what Moore is telling you is accurate.

It was a film, not a news report. Bush will tell you everything thats good about himself. He won't say anything negative about himself. Why do you hold Moore to higher standards than you hold Fox News?????

[KelleyKramer]

41. Inaccuracies in your comments about the film ...

You said..
"But he neglects to mention that the other networks had already called FLA for Gore an hour before the polls in the more conservative Panhandle region, thus discouraging many there not to vote."

Actually he DID show the networks calling Fla for Gore, then later he said that John Ellis called it for Bush at Fox News.
(by the way, just so you know how close they are.. 'Jeb' in Jeb Bush stands for John Ellis Bush).

As for raping Iraqi's I don’t think we have much room to talk.

And as far a Saddum gassing his people before the US attack, actually the last time Saddum gassed his people was when you were 2 years old, and it was done with the full support (and help) of Rumsfeld, Reagan and Bush Sr.

If you really are 18 years old, then you need to know that since before you started the 1st grade, over half of Iraq has been United States military airspace.
The US has been bombing Iraq for over 10 years since the first gulf war (Bush bombed them in Feb 2001, just a month after he rode his egg covered limo to the White House). Hussein didn’t even control half of Iraq, he was basically just mayor of Baghdad.

Another fact ... The film is almost 2 hours long, the part you complain about with the pre-war clips lasts for a whopping 20 SECONDS.

[drthais]

6. I also, was SHKING with rage

the second time around
the first time, it felt like a party

the second time, I almost lost it

[drthais]

7. I also, was SHAKING with rage

the second time around
the first time, it felt like a party

the second time, I almost lost it

[Skittles]

20. yes

the first time I saw it - on its first day - I was so freaking excited to actually be there SEEING it that I knew I would have to see it again. So I did, a couple days ago. I had the same reaction you did - it seemed more like a movie to me than a bunch of scenes I had heard or read about. I recommend a second viewing for everyone.

[Lisa]

23. even better 2nd time around ...

I went to a showing the first weekend, and the place was so crowded that I missed some of the narration -- due to the cheers (and the booing of Bush, especially the punchline at the end).

Seeing it again gave me more time to see the "big picture" and follow the train of Moore's arguments. (In my opinion, he actually lays the connections out more clearly than "The Corporation", which admittedly covers a wider range of topics.)

This time, I noticed that although the techniques aren't as "artsy" as other award-winning docs, the bits that Moore does use (the drifting pieces of paper after the WTC collapse, and the blacking-out of Bath's name at the end) stand out. Sure, we've seen a lot of the information before, and images like the side-by-side document comparison are used routinely by news shows, but I believe that Moore made the deliberate decision NOT to fancy it up, and lets the footage of Lila Lipscomb etc. stand on its own -- so neither he nor the techniques overshadow it.

[AVID]

29. better second time nt

[wellstone dem]

31. Absolutely

more powerful the second time around.

[hippywife]

34. Saw more of it the second time

because I wasn't CRYING!! Even tho I already knew most of what was in the movie, I cried through a good half of it the first time.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

37. Must be seen twice...

to appreciate the flow of the movie, and catch details that you might not have caught the first time. Just like BFC, F9/11 has too much information to be absorbed in one sitting. I saw it opening night with my husband, and at a matinee two days later with my 16 y/o daughter(who had no desire to attend ANY movie with her parents on a Friday night, but who loves MM).

Confession:I'm hoping to find someone to go with me a third time. I have one friend who's seen it once, and is thinking of going again. I'd love it. MKJ

[ResistTheCoup]

42. Funny you should ask...I just saw it for the 2nd time today

And I have to agree that everyone should see it more than once. I liked and appreciated it even more the second time around.

I had read so much about it beforehand and was so excited to see it the first time that I spent a lot of time thinking about when they would show such-and-such, etc. It made the movie seem disjointed to me and also seemed to go by too fast. Kind of overwhelming.

My husband, one the other hand, who didn't want to read anything about it before he went, was absolutely blown away at the first viewing. He couldn't get out of his seat for about 5-10 minutes after it ended because he was so choked up. His brother was a victim of the "Stop-Loss" order and is stationed in Iraq now, months after he was due to separate from the Guard. With tears in his eyes he said the part that bothered him the most was when the two soldiers were just standing by that tree and that explosion went off. The look on their faces. He said he just knows that something like that could happen to his brother.

I highly recommend seeing F911 a second, third or fourth time. As a matter of fact, I travel a lot and I think I'm going to see it in as many cities/states that I can. Then I'll send Michael Moore a collage of my ticket stubs! Thank you, Michael!!

[Zen]

43. I enjoyed it more the second time - first was on opening night

- got lousy seats near front - too close to scan screen correctly. Second time I went during an off time - sat in the perfect seat. Was ready when that Doolittle congresswhore just nastily blew through Moore when asking about children in service - someone ought to whoop that guys ass - what a jerk. I said something to that effect out loud actually, then I was wondering what the consequence of throwing my water bottle at the screen would be when the fascist chimp showed up on screen again. Mr. Chimp is evil.