I'd like to hear from some original Kerry supporters on the Dean/Nader

[mzmolly]

debate?

Any original Kerry supporters tune in today? Thoughts? :shrug:

[ProfessorPlum]

1. I would too. I don't think anyone could complain that

Howard didn't stand up for Kerry and the party in a huge way. The guy is a real team player and so very right on so many issues.

Sorry, I'll let them respond now!

[mzmolly]

2. Crickets chirping.

:shrug:

That's a fine thanks ey?! ;)

[ProfessorPlum]

5. that's too bad

Dean was great.

[JI7]

14. you have to remember, there are not many Kerry first supporters on here

remember during the primaries most supported dean clark and maybe kucinich. very few on here were kerry supporters. so most people on du now are people who supported someone other than kerry in the primary.

[sangh0]

33. And also, we didn't all get to listen to the debate

Some of us have work to do :-(

on edit: I would like to say that since Kerry (presumably) won the nomination, Dean has been a real team player and asset for democracy

[NMDemDist2]

3. sorry, I didn't see the debate, I'll check it out tonight and get back

at ya-- M'kay?

I have to go protest Asscroft's visit right now :9

[mzmolly]

4. Give John the finga for me too!

;)

[NMDemDist2]

7. here's my sign, whadda ya think?

with a big Repeal the Patriot Act underneath

[mzmolly]

8. That's awesome!

:toast:

[ibegurpard]

6. Not me.

I think they're wisely keeping their distance.

[mzmolly]

9. I'm just talkin DU-ers not officials from the campaign.

But perhaps the DU-ers are thinking like you are? Could be strategy? ;)

[ibegurpard]

18. I can appreciate what you're trying to do here

but human nature being what it is, I have a hard time seeing how anyone's going to come on here and say "Wow, I sure was wrong about Dean." I see nothing but a potential flame war happening.

[mzmolly]

20. I spose, though I've seen many people say nice things about Dean

*after the fact* I think they should watch the debate if they haven't already. ;)

[sandnsea]

10. I tried

The stream was choppy. Is it going to be televised on tv anywhere? Maybe later when so many people aren't hooked up, it'll be smoother.

But Howard's been okay 90% of the time. I still think he's not being completely honest on what he said about the war, Patriot Act, and other issues that he bashes Democrats on. He's in a tough spot, if he supports the Democrats too much and goes back on anything he said during the primaries, he destroys his credibility and loses his supporters and purpose. Because of that, he isn't as free to support the Democratic Party in general right now. He should have thought of that when he was running.

[ibegurpard]

12. This is why I said what I did above.

eom

[cjbuchanan]

16. I must disagree with your last couple sentences

He has been very clear on this point.

He has said that he has differences with a lot of people in the party, but he will take a democrat over a repug any day. He has been out working his base for Kerry. He has stood by Kerry and he has been pushing the party everywhere he goes. Dean is doing everything he can to get a Dem in the WH and Dems in control of Congress.

[sandnsea]

22. You misunderstand

He's doing everything he can do, he's doing alot, I agree with that 100%. I just think he could be doing ALOT more if he hadn't painted himself in a corner on a couple of issues in such a drastic manner.

[cjbuchanan]

27. I don't see your point

He took stands on issues. When people point out the issues the he disagreed with Kerry, he says does not deny it, it just says that he and Kerry are more alike then he and W. are.

Also, you say he has painted himself into a corner; I do not see that. He is drawing large crowds wherever he goes because of the positions he took and continues to take. He is getting those people (who, for the most part, were not to hot on Kerry) to support the nominee. This is going to help out the ticket in a huge way.

By the way, what issues are you talking about?

[mzmolly]

21. Dean is very honest. That's one thing no one can take from him.

Additionally, he's doing more for "the party" than anyone besides Kerry/Edwards today.

He started a 527 that is funding/supporting democrats all over the us. He debated last night at the ACLU, and today on NPR.

He's working his ass off for Kerry/Edwards and the people of the United States. I suggest your not paying attention? ;)

Watch the debate tonight at 7 Central on CSPAN2. :hi:

[sandnsea]

23. Thanks for the time

I appreciate it. And I didn't say he wasn't working hard for the Democratic Party either. I said he's doing a great job, about 90% of the time.

He could be doing even more if he would be more honest about his true statements regarding the war and patriot act, his support of the Democratic agenda in the 90's that he bashed Kerry over, the truth about how much the Democrats got accomplished in the 90's on health care, education and other issues. He could be doing even more if he would just chalk some of this up to campaigning. But truthfully, people like you who refuse to see the political posturing in some of his remarks, make it impossible for him to move and become even more useful. And it's a real shame.

Being blunt does not mean being honest. Chris Matthews always called Dean honest, but then again, he says the same thing of Bush.

[ibegurpard]

24. See what I mean, mzmolly?

:shrug:

[mzmolly]

25. I see EXACTLY what you mean. Thanks.

In fact, I won't respond the the original garbage because that's what it is.

Sad really.

[sangh0]

36. So 90% isn't good enough?

Maybe that's why so few Kerry supporters are posting here. It seems that anything less than 100% is "horseshit" to some Dean supporters

[mzmolly]

38. It's not about the so called percentages. It's about the comments

regarding Deans integrity and the insinuation that he wasn't genuine in his feelings on the war/pat act etc.

[sandnsea]

41. Yeah, that's right

He's been all over the map on both of those issues. Now I'm not entitled to an opinion???? I thought that's what all the Dean hoopla was about, real people with real opinions.

Let me put it this way. About 3/4 of what Ralph Nader said, maybe more, is already part of John Kerry's platform. Dean either didn't know it or didn't bother to point much of it out. In any event, Ralph Nader basically came off as full of shit to me.

Dean, while not near as bad as Nader, does the same thing and for that reason, has always sounded rather full of shit to me because of it. That's why I didn't support him in the primaries and after watching tonight's debate, I'm really glad I didn't. I wasn't all that impressed. When he tried to support the Democratic Party, he had to go back years. He couldn't say one good thing about the 90's even though he was a strong advocate of everything Clinton did and went further to the right on some issues than Clinton did. But he just can't talk about any of that because that would take away his role as anti-establishment radical. Maybe he wants to become the next Ralph Nader, who knows.

[mzmolly]

43. Apparently you haven't paid attention. Dean praised Clinton

MANY MANY times.

Dean didn't praise Clinton at today's debate because he is trying to reach voters who DONT LIKE CLINTON.

If your interested in a realistic take on tonights debate see here:

Dean hits Nader where it hurts ~ The man who revived the Democrats' fighting spirit hammers the spoiler on his ties to right-wing moneyed interests.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/07/10/debate/index.html

You don't know Howard Dean Sandnsea, you prove it time and time again. Dean is the one of the most genuine people in politics today. Your insinuation that he is not, means you and I have nothing to discuss.

Cheers.

[sandnsea]

45. Kiss Dean's butt

or fuck off. I've been listening to that for a really long time.

I tried to like him. I'm appreciative that he is at least saying Bush being beat is the most important thing. Other than that, he isn't honest about his views and when you pin him down, he proves it. Like on the defense budget today. It's always that way with Dean, he blabbers on but when you pin him down, he's no different than any other Congressional Dem. In fact, neither is Nader really. Iraq? His plan is no different than Kerry's. Kerry has nothing about corporate crime and corporate tax loopholes on his web site? Please. People that are just full of themselves, that's all I see.

I don't have to agree with Salon. I can think for myself, it is still allowed, right?

[mzmolly]

49. Thinking IS allowed. What you suffer from is cognitive dissonance. It's

not really thinking.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "you and I have nothing to discuss." Uhm, I still feel that way. :hi:

[Eloriel]

30. That's such horseshit

He could be doing even more if he would be more honest about his true statements regarding the war and patriot act, his support of the Democratic agenda in the 90's that he bashed Kerry over, the truth about how much the Democrats got accomplished in the 90's on health care, education and other issues. He could be doing even more if he would just chalk some of this up to campaigning. But truthfully, people like you who refuse to see the political posturing in some of his remarks, make it impossible for him to move and become even more useful. And it's a real shame.


First, he is NEVER anything but honest. Circumspect at times these days, but honest still.

Second, he always readily admits, when asked (and sometimes when not), that he and Kerry had their differences during the campaign but then goes right on with the truth for him, which is that Kerry will make a far better president than Bush.

Third, whatever "the Democrats got accomplished in the 90s," it wasn't enough and Dean did much better as a governor on healthcare. Further, you don't create a vision of where you want to go by hawking on the gains of the past (such as they were).

Frankly, I think it's a little embarrassing that you should think that there were any "gains" in healthcare worth mentioning, with millions completely and totally uncovered. What, pray tell, WERE they?

[w13rd0]

37. Haha...

...you sound like Nader.

[sandnsea]

42. Actually

Dean sounds like Nader.

[mzmolly]

44. You mean when he said "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush"

that sounds Naderesque to you? :eyes:

[sandnsea]

46. Why not vote Nader?

He doesn't give anybody much of a reason to support Dems, except they aren't Bush. I've already heard on this board 100 times that that isn't enough. Dean can't support the Democratic Party or Kerry all that much because he's too busy being the anti-establishment radical. That was the point of my original post and his behavior in today's debate showed it clearly.

[mzmolly]

48. Riiiiight. I read what you said. It's garbage and I believe I stated

that previously.

Ciao.

[JI7]

11. will they show it on cspan ?

on cspan 1 or 2 later ? i didn't listen to it and i don't have cspan 3. but i would like to watch it if they show it on 1 or 2 later on. or maybe online.

but i don't need to watch it to be convinced that dean will support kerry and other democrats. i have already seen it. most of the times when i say something negative about dean is because of some dean supporters who attack kerry so i just respond back. but it's not personal towards dean himself since i do the same with supporters of other candidates.i don't agree with everything about him but i never worried he would start a third party or some other weird stuff as some kept wondering (or encouraging).

[cjbuchanan]

19. Reshowing it at 8pm EST on CSPAN 2

Hope you watch.

[Still_Loves_John]

13. Well, I didn't see the debate

but I really like how Howard Dean is doing lately. I have to admit, I didn't like him during the primaries (mainly because he was beating my guy ;)) and I still personally wouldn't like him as the nominee, I think he has shown some great party loyalty the way he stands up to Ralph Nader. I think it would have been easy for him to have been sulky after he dropped out, not criticising Kerry but not supporting him either, but he has definatly been working. And I have to admire the way he's working--he recognizes that lots of his supporters are going to be drawn to Nader and he's telling them not to be.

[blm]

15. dupe

.

[blm]

17. Will be glad to after I watch the rerun.

From what I have seen from most all the Democrats is a solid TEAM intent on working together to outmaneuver and outmuscle the Bush thugs once and for all.

This election is so important that they all know they are needed.

[WilliamPitt]

26. Howard Dean is The Man

but Kerry won the primaries. I am glad beyond words Dean is helping Kerry.

[Taverner]

28. If Nader's return is less than 1%

Kerry should thank Dean :)

[mzmolly]

29. Thanks Will!

I'm glad they are working together as well. Dean isn't looking back and neither am I. ;)

[tavalon]

51. Now, wait a sec

Will,

I thought you were a Kucinich guy.

[bklyncowgirl]

31. Don't know if I count, but...

I'm a long time Kerry admirer who wobbled back and forth between Kerry and Dean in the primaries.

I thought it was a great debate. Dean did a great job of carrying the Democrat standard and in my opinion won hands down. I was a little concerned about this because I was not a big fan of Dean's debating style during the primaries but this more freewheeling format clearly suited him alot better. Nader was also strong but in the end, Dean had the more powerful argument on his side.

I'd love to see them adopt this sort of real debate format where the candidates can rebut each other and actually argue for the presidential debates.

Dream on Girl, the republicans would never let it happen.

[emulatorloo]

32. Dean has been a great campaigner for Kerry

Dean is superb.

I have said it many times. . .his appearances on tv have been great.

I haven't seen the debate yet, but enjoyed the DU running commentary.

[seaglass]

34. I think the intended audience for this debate was Dean and

Nader supporters, so don't be too disappointed if you don't hear from a lot of original Kerry supporters.

It's good if Dean is wholeheartedly supporting Kerry.

[mzmolly]

40. I would think this would be a matter of interest to anyone concerned about

the coming election?

[seaglass]

47. Nah. This is clearly a Dean attempt to get wandering

supporters back into the fold of supporting the D candidate and hopefully convincing Nader voters that their strategy is not for the common good.

Don't get me wrong, this is a good thing. It's my personal feeling that Dean is the only one who can do this.

In any case, I caught the tail end of it this morning and Dean did a very good job, hopefully it was effective.

[Trajan]

35. Is someone who supported ALL the Democratic Candidates, including Kerry ..

Considered an Original 'Kerry Supporter' ?

[nightperson]

39. Well, I give thanks to Dr. Dean, and you,

and to other Dean supporters here for all all the recent positivity!

:yourock: :headbang: :thumbsup: :toast:

I don't have cable TV though, so I can't comment much more right now!

[mzmolly]

50. Thank you. You can read about the debate in Will Pitts thread on the

subject if you like. ;)

[library_max]

52. I didn't hear the debate, unfortunately,

but I'd just like to check in and say that, to my knowledge, Dean has been a class act ever since he withdrew from the campaign. He's been working his butt off and been very supportive of the nominee. Rehashing old arguments about rhetoric in the nomination battle and trying to reopen old wounds is counterproductive - Dean and Kerry aren't doing it, so why the hell should we?