Legal Question re Martial law

[dryan]

What are the grounds for declaring Martial Law? The presidential election of 1864 was held even though the Civil War was going on (some of Lincoln's advisors wanted him to declare Martial Law and he didn't.) This is an academic question.

[Walt Starr]

1. Well, basically, whatever the Cheney Bush wants as a reason

It's the end of the constitution when it happens.

[shoelace414]

2. Maybe I'm thinking of pie in the sky

but if Voledmort cancelled elections, I can't see him.. umm.. getting elected the next time there are elections.

I also can't see him keeping elections from being held for over a month or two.

[enfield collector]

12. Dude, you're not supposed to say V......, it's "He who must not be named".

[northzax]

3. there are none

it's also not technically feasible in the US, so let's stop thinking about it. we simply don't have the military or police infrastructure to enfore Martial law. not gonna happen. period.

[atreides1]

4. But

You could be wrong!!!!

With this group of clowns we should always expect the unexpected. They don't have to control the entire country, just the parts that
have a high percentage of people who don't agree with this administration.

Besides, they could do this covertly by saying that some sort of biological infection has been discovered in any major city, and then call for an evacuation to a specified area.

I could wrong, but then again so could you.

[dr.strangelove]

5. Actually, he couldn't

Martial law can't be legally declared.

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 forbids the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus from executing the laws on US soil, except when expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress.

Several E.O.s have made attempts to change this, but simple common law states that an EO can't overrule a US statute.

[Blue Wally]

19. Doesn't

a declaration of martial law temporarily suspend Posse Comitatus? Governors (with their National Guards) and the president (with all of the armed forces) can declare martial law. Not sure if there is a time limit before legislative approval is necessary.

[dr.strangelove]

7. It would take an army

to force an entire city under Martial law. There are 12M residents in teh greater NYC area and 50,000 cops. Not going to do it. There are 150,000 NY State Troopers, still not enough, and they would be needed in other areas too. Martial law is not legal or possible in the states.

The only way the people would allow something like that was if a major attack occurred, and I'm talking somethign 100x 9/11. If a nuclear device (not some dirty bomb) went off in a populated area with the knowlege of more to come, then mass evacuations and martial law might take place, and might be a good thing.

FYI, Bush would be really unlikely to nuke NYC, LA, Boston, Chi Town or any other major city because each gives the Rep party millions each year. Martial law for the purposes of cheating an election is simply a stupid idea. There are much easier ways for Bush to control the election. Lets get off the bullshit theories and try to stop Bush from winning by 1) Getting people to Vote for Kerry, and 2) Getting people to not vote for Bush.

[northzax]

8. yeah, I could be wrong

but the odds are so low it's not worth thinking about.

There are roughly 1,000,000 battle troops in the army (if you take a lot of support staff and arm them. That's not enough to declare military law on a country of 300,000,000 people, many of whom own guns.

Second off, barring a major incident, which could lead to temporary martial law in certain areas) I don't think that most troops (and we're a little thin on those) or police would actually participate in Martial Law. You think the average cop is going to shoot their neighbor for waling down the street? You think the average soldier is going to so that? I don't.

Martial law requires something on the order of one solider for ever 100 people, or 3 million troops. Even the freepers wouldn't stand for martial law, sure, they'd love it on other people, but not when the curfew hits them as well. You cannot declare martial law on an armed populace, especially in rural areas. it's not going to happen.

I'll tell you what, if * declares martial law, and the army follows his command, and every local police department, I will pay you $10,000 if it holds for one week. otherwise, you can pay me.

I can tell you right now that if they came for me, especially if I wasn't the first (and I wouldn't be) I would not go quietly. I have no intention of allowing my government to imprison me for political reasons. I knew too many people who made it through death camps from various wars. I would take someone with me (I am not advocating violence unless someone else uses it against you first) I wager there are 50,000 people in DC who would refuse to cooperate (At a minimum) there aren't 50,000 cops within 200 miles of here. How they gonna enforce it?

can't be done.

[jukes]

9. northzax

once again we cross blades...

not really, too tired to be a jerk tonight.

i'm going to state a couple opinions, not all directed toward your post, caveat my ass off, then just lurk unless some1 wants rebuttal time or has a question.

my source on point #1 is embedded in another thread, & i can't be arsed to look it up; thus, no citation.

first, they will not declare "martial law", it's pretty much a term of convenience. IF things come to such a pass that the admin decide they can't possibly "win" the election, even by fraud, i SUSPECT that they are capable, it has occurred to them, and it's quite possible that plans exist, to enforce the coup they committed in 2K. in order to do so, they need only allow, or create, a major terrorist attack on american soil (probably close to the elections; and declare a national emergency. @ that point, FEMA will take over, under tom (bardahl) ridge. under the aegis of FEMA, the constitution is suspended, which allows them to "declare martial law."

IF it comes to that, & here i more directly address your objection, there WILL NOT be a huge public rebellion. communication services, including fones, radio, TV, & the internet will be directly controlled by ridge. there will be mass confusion, certainly localized violence, counter mob violence by the ultra-conservative right (they've been prepping for years: google "christian guide to small arms) hence, no immediate need for masses of armed agents; they'll only have to "quiet" localized pockets.

& i respectfully disagree about the police. MOST cops are republican, and pretty conservative. oh, they're "patriots", in the same sense that freeper militia are. they're just more stable because they have more power, hence pride, & are afraid to go too far too often, because of fear of being rodney kinged. most probably love bush because he saved them from some of those pesky "loopholes" in the constitution that cause them to have to work so hard & gets croox out of the joint if they're sloppy. like they were in the OJ case. he walked because they eft up the case, cops HATE that.

MOST will do as they're told because they're used to being told what to do; remember LA, & Detroit. Mississippi in the '60s. half the cops in the state were klan, too. or non-committed supporters.

LOTS of cops will WANT to do what they're told. like the general public, they'll be fooled by the attack. &, believe this, they have scant love for liberals.

in '72, i got the training on the panthers, snic, blackstone rangers, SDS, the weatherman, et al. believe it, they will crack skulls.

and here's a nasty little secret about cops: lots of them ache for the opportunity to kill a perp. they want a "rep". besides, it's a shorcut to a promotion to sergeant or detective. i've known four cops that dropt bandits in "righteous" shoots. 2 weex on the desk, 6 mo to a year back on patrol, then every single 1 of them received a promotion, most to detective.

maybe there Will be organized resistance after a time, but they've been watching, w/o legal restraints now, since 9-11. i guarantee that intel cops lurk this page; perhaps some post in it. i was able to convince the brotherhood of gypsy outlaws & the boneshakers MC that i was real for two years, & i don't even ride. not all cops are stupid.

&, why shd the admin care? a couple hundred thousand dead from the attack, a couple thousand more in round-ups or quashing ops. they've already killed that many. over 800 hundred of our troops, officially. just in iraq. & that doesn't count "accidental" deaths, suicide, illness (i almost died of malaria in viet nam. no purple heart, no listing as a casualty). if they believe the've lost, they've nothing else to lose. and they care about no-one not of their class.


CAVEAT: i do NOT suggest this WILL happen, but i do believe it might. I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT RECOMMEND OR SUPPORT ARMED INSURRECTION AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT! I STATE UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT WOULD CONSTITUTE TREASON. i object to even discussing it.

if this doesn't make any1 think, then you guys have more faith in the public than i do.

last thing. i'm deathly tired of the flame wars, sniping, & general pissiness. i don't even bait xians anymore. the last time i posted my opinions on this particular subject, some1 called me a "drama queen." maybe it's true, but we live in VERY dramatic times, & petty name-calling is much less persuasive than facts.

sorry to edit an already long post, but this is important: they ran a test/training op in savannah for the G8, see:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1953560&mesg_id=1953560

[northzax]

11. touche. but I politely disagree

what you describe is not martial law, as I see it. What you describe is turning the country over to right wing goon squads.

And believe me, if there is a terror attack that kills 'a couple of hundred thousand people' (nuke? only that would do) then this country will be picking up the pieces of our democracy, I'm with you there. I just don't see it. Maybe I'm not paranoid enough.

Yes, many cops may want to tag a perp, but I won't believe that they want to tag the old lady who lives next door. Even in Tienanmen Square the CCP had to call in replacement troops from way in Northern China because the local troops would not fire on their neighbors. The first rule of martial law is that you must provide security, and we don't have the troops to do that.

I'm not saying your analysis is incorrect, I hope it is, but you may well be right. I cannot, at this juncture, believe it is possible (and after all, in the scenario you posit, there is nothing to be done about it anyway, right?) This country is not yet on enough of a war footing for that to happen, imho.

I too, have consistently argued against anything resembling armed revolution against the government of this country. Too many of my family members have died for it for me to want to kill it, but the minute that national martial law is declared, this country is dead. I will fight for the constitution, as my ancestors did, once someone else fires the first shot.

[jukes]

13. fine arguments

and, as you suggest, nothing much that can be done: that is, after all, the defining feature of chaos.

i'd like to state, for the record, that this is no prediction; personally, i'm afraid the american public hasn't had enough of this disenfranchisement yet, and bush, w/the aid of diebold, miscounts, strong-arm goons @ the polls, etc. will "legally" continue to use 1 of the greatest documents in the world as ass-wipe. THAT's my predixion, & i hope that i'm wrong.

i also seriously hope that my suspicions on a forcible 2nd coup are wrong. i do believe you're right that , in the long run, such a coup will fail. i just don't think the cabal wd care. if they sense disaster, they'll be in a safe haven quicker than the bin lauden family bolted after 9/11.

you're possibly right on "locals v locals"; but they're not that stupid. they'll shift priorities as needed.

wdnt take a nuke, BTW, not that i think bush wd give a rat's ass. they've played w/biologicals in the past. or a nice dirty-bomb. a nuke wd take out more than 100K, unless it were very rural. overkill, even for these bloodthirsty jay-ohs.

my sugg to you, (or me, or any1) that thinx some day "some1" may come looking for you, coup or not: do not "alamo", they will out-gun you & you will die in vain (i realize your comment on some1 kicking the door was metaphorical, but feel the need to discuss reality for the tactically-challenged). if you think you might be inquisitioned, plan ahead to RUN! pick & choose, skirmish selected targets later, but don't sacrifice unnecessarily. n/w GA mountains are riddled w/caves, abandoned mines, & tunnels; not that i have maps or have done any exploring.

TX++ for the meaningful & polite discourse. if the bad day ever comes, i'd be proud to stand next to you.

[northzax]

14. hey, if Patrick Swayze can take on the entire

Russian Army in Red Dawn, surely we can deal with the odd Freeper!

[jukes]

16. love that

"pirouette of death" Swayze! ballet dancer-cum-martial artist, buddhist & liberal.


that was a fun movie, but i'm afraid the freeps liked it more than us. "steel dawn" was cool, too.

[cheezus]

6. who will enforce the law? all the guardsmen are in iraq!

[jukes]

15. nope, not true, there are a few guard & reserve units left.

plus standing, reg army "training" cadre units, & "pork" out the ying-yang. most people have NO idea how much law enforcement is in this country: police, county mounties, state patrol. federal: DEA, FBI, NSA, DSA, treasury agents,park police, reservation cops, park rangers, dept of interior, INS, "mean green" border patrol, food-stamp investigator's for DAG, GSA protective services, rent-a-pig; FEMA itself is an armed enforcement agency. & that doesn't consider the private, corporate armies; pink's, KBR, etc. any1 that has studied the union movement knows how effectively they've been used in the past to bludgeon liberal activists into submission.

again: most american's WILL NOT believe that this is a trump-job. they will comply, believing that outside enemies have attacked. & they'll snitch out any1 w/the common sense to read the actual graffiti on the wall.

it won't take that many "troops" to squelch initial dissent. & the #s do exist. trust no 1, watch your backs, & watch what you say openly.

repeating my earlier caveat: FEMA *is* the law. under the marvelously protective "Patriot Act", dissent is treasonous & grounds for Gitmo. ANY discussion of armed resistance, short of mention of self-defense from "home invasion" or intruders, can & will be used against you, but not in a court of law. let's all remain polite & DISCRETE; i'd hate to see this forum shut down because of rash & non-judicious statements.

[Cerridwen]

10. A Federal Emergency; potential riots, . . .

Like at a national convention? Like at Kent State?

Like at Savannah, GA; I'll post the link here as soon as I find it.

Executive Orders which declare national emergencies effectively declare martial law.

Edited to add a link to Savannah, GA story here at DU here

And a fun story from 2002 http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/27/1027497418339.html?oneclick=true">Is here

[Gordon25]

17. Let's not hide our heads in the sand...

...They are telling us how they will do it.

<snip> "According to the official statement, which must be taken seriously, an "actual terrorist attack" in the near future on American soil would lead to a Red Code Alert. The latter in turn, would create conditions for the (temporary) suspension of the normal functions of civilian government, as foreseen by General Tommy Franks. This scenario was envisaged by Secretary Tom Ridge in a CBS News Interview on December 22, 2003:

"If we simply go to red ... it basically shuts down the country," meaning that civilian government bodies would be closed down and taken over by an Emergency Administration. 23

Preparing for Martial Law

In preparation for a Red code Alert, the Homeland Security department had conducted in May 2003 a major "anti-terrorist exercise" entitled TOPOFF 2. The latter is described as "the largest and most comprehensive terrorism response and homeland security exercise ever conducted in the United States." <snip> http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO402A.html

Personally, I am about 50-50 on whether or not this is likely to occur. However, I will not relax until Kerry and Edwards are inaugurated next January. As developing investigations are showing, should the current regime be ousted in the upcoming election, prison and/or war crimes trials are a very real possibility. They have shown no reluctance to this point to lie, cheat, steal, subvert constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties, and even kill to solidify their hold on power. I would not in the least be surprised if the suspension of the Constitution "for the duration of the war on terror" were to be attempted. As to how Americans would react, I am not sure. There are an awfully lot of Bush supporters who refuse to hear any negatives about him no matter what the standard of proof offered, "because he is a good and Godly man working the Lord's will." Multiply current police and military forces by the brownshirt legions just aching to be turned loose on all us Godless liberals and progresives, and I think martial law is doable, at least for a time.

Don't forget, too, that five of the alleged hijackers from 9/11 had been through training at US military facilities in the US, and that three of them listed Pensacola Naval Air Station as home address on their driver's liscenses.

The most hopeful thing I have seen is the apparent schism between the administration and the CIA, and between the neocons and the rank and file at the Pentagon. They may be our best hope of preventing a Code Red.

Sure don't like all the current blather about Al Q's plans to attack US in "attempt to influence US elections" though.

Gordon25

[jukes]

18. kicking!

am enjoying the polite disagreement & excellent analysis!

:kick: