HOLY CRAP: Salon's take on Dean v. Nader

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/07/10/debate/print.html

Dean hits Nader where it hurts

The man who revived the Democrats' fighting spirit hammers the spoiler on his ties to right-wing moneyed interests.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Mary Jacoby

printe-mail

July 10, 2004 | WASHINGTON -- Howard Dean wasted little time getting to the point in a debate with third-party presidential candidate Ralph Nader on Friday. After listening to Nader's standard posturing about how only he can save the Democratic Party and the nation from the "corporate interests" that have consumed politics and government, the former Vermont governor struck hard: "Ralph, I think you're being disingenuous about your candidacy this year."

In his rapid-fire delivery, the onetime Democratic presidential front-runner rattled off all the ways he saw Nader as a hypocrite: Nearly half the signatures Nader gathered in a failed attempt to get on the Arizona ballot were from Republicans. A significant amount of his campaign kitty comes from Bush-Cheney donors. And, said Dean, "you accepted the support of a right-wing, fanatic Republican group that is antigay in order to help you get on the ballot in Oregon" -- a reference to the Oregon Family Council, which produces a "Christian Voter Guide" and campaigns against gay marriage.

"This is not going to help the progressive cause in America," Dean continued. "The thing that upsets me so much about this is, you have the right to ... get in bed with whoever you want to, but don't call the Democratic Party full of corporate interests. They have their problems, we all have ours, none of us are pure. And this campaign of yours is far from pure."

Dean's riff was greeted with gleeful applause, and Nader appeared momentarily shaken by its ferocity. Dean insisted, "My purpose here is not to smear Ralph Nader," which prompted Nader to respond sarcastically, "Oh, no. Not at all!"

Because the debate was sponsored by the scrupulously evenhanded National Public Radio, the room at the National Press Club was filled with equal numbers of the opposing camps. The Nader section tried to pump some wind back into their guy, squealing with laughter at his teenager-like rejoinder. Dean plowed through their applause. "I urge you not to turn your back on your own legacy," he pleaded to the consumer advocate.

...more...

Dean = God.

[newsguyatl]

1. Dean = God.

glad you finally see that :hi:

[WilliamPitt]

7. Always did

We all have our candidates. I disagreed with Dean on several things, but never ever thought he was anything other than excellent.

http://www.winningbackamerica.com/weblog/2003/12/william_rivers_.html

[mzmolly]

20. I love this description ...

"The man who revived the Democrats' fighting spirit hammers the spoiler on his ties to right-wing moneyed interests."

"The man who revived the Democrats fighting spirit" ... I'll take that description, thank ya very much!

[sendero]

76. And Dean richly deserves it....

... he was one of the few willing to stick his head on the chopping block in the early days.

If we win this election (which I think we will), we all owe Dr. Dean a lot IMHO.

[Generator]

103. YEAH

If we slide by and still have a Democracy in 2005-we have Dean to thank.

[Ramsey]

2. Dean Rocks!

I am so in love.
Thanks for the link, Will!

[Raiden]

3. Howard, YOU ROCK!

I still have a Howard Dean for President sign up on my bedroom wall.

[newsguyatl]

12. i was just going through

all the newspaper articles i'd saved over the last year about him -- i was going to toss them, but when i started going through them, it brought back such good memories, i decided i'll probably buy a scrapbook tomorrow.

[mzmolly]

17. Oh my what a great idea. A Dean scrap book!

:hi:

[newsguyatl]

21. yeh..

not to sound cheesy, but man, what an incredible story his was... just going through those articles and seeing the pictures, i was reliving it -- all over again.

the one that's hardest to look at though, was the day he lost either iowa or nh i believe, front of the ny times, with a picture of three or four of his YOUNG supporters -- the look in their eyes said it all, they were devastated. it was hard for me to look at then, and it was hard for me again tonight.

i think a scrapbook will be lots of fun to look at in years to come...

[mzmolly]

I had a hard time just reading your description newsguy.

*sigh*

I would love to see a documentary on the Dean campaign and his legacy in general. I am certain in time we'll see something of the sort, but I'm even more certain the Dean story has only just begun.

[madfloridian]

36. We find we can not throw anything out.

We had signs, buttons, stickers. We just put them in a box and ordered stuff for DFA.

It was a time when we almost thought we could make a difference, but we found out it would take longer.

[NashVegas]

99. I Have a DFA Sign Autographed by Gore

It'll go on eBay one day ...

[K-W]

4. "scrupulously evenhanded National Public Radio" - nicely said EOM

[proud patriot]

5. I love Dean , That's why I supported him in the primaries

:loveya:

[Fenris]

6. Why is it that I like Dean now?

I couldn't stand him before...strange.

[WilliamPitt]

8. Always liked Dean

Some of his supporters made me want to stab my own brain. But every candidate had supporters like that. I try not to hold grudges. :)

[Fenris]

10. Stabbing your own brain is counter-productive.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. Yes, he could end up with an IQ like *'s

That'd be a tragedy.

[Zomby Woof]

23. you and me both

Wooweee... don't we know it!

Kudos to Dean for kicking Ralph Malph's ass and taking no prisoners. :-)

[BootinUp]

70. Same here

Dean is very welcome in the political debate by me. :)

[Eric J in MN]

29. In my case, when Dean was running, I was afraid he'd be the

In my case, when Dean was running, I was afraid he'd be the nominee but lose because of his tax proposal to raise everyone's taxes.

Now I like Dean. I have no reason not to.

[HuskerDem]

9. This is what Dean meant and wanted to do all along I believe

GET BUSH OUT.

Bless him, for kicking ass.

[K-W]

14. A progressive with his head out of the clouds,

hopefully the naderites can drift down and join him.

[2Design]

11. truth sayers....have the hardest job......telling the truth even when

it is painful.....eom

[mzmolly]

13. YEEEARRGH! I like the press on this one!

Thanks for the article.

Nader's run never made much sense to me, until he plugged his book towards the end of the debate. Suddenly it's becoming all to clear.

This quote by Dean sums it up very nicely:

"When the house is on fire, it's not the time to fix the furniture." :toast:

[Paragon]

15. If Dean = God...

...does that make Kerry & Edwards the Son & Holy Spirit?

/lapsedcatholic

[Amaya]

16. Always liked and wanted Dean

Too bad America didn't...

[calimary]

22. Sigh... me too.

He's still my hero. He should be the hero of every freedom-loving, Constitution-loving, bush-despising American. Nobody else started showing any backbone until HOWARD DEAN came along.

My heart will ALWAYS belong to "Hollerin' Howard." We all owe him a GIGANTIC debt.

[Zomby Woof]

35. you scared him off

With your tongue. :P

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

80. Amaya is a FRIEND OF MINE

HAHAHAHAHAHAAA!! She knows what I am talking about. :D It has NOTHING To do with the level of discourse or the flame wars of the past. It's a Lounge thing. ;-)

[Individualist]

84. Same here

Dean has been an inspiration to me ever since the primaries.

[bigbillhaywood]

18. He needs to use DFA as a platform to establish a viable third-party.

Form a coalition with the Greens, Labor Party, New Party and Working Families Party. Get support from a couple of unions. Develop a long-term strategy. Start running candidates on the local level. Build to state, then national elections. When the time is right and a critical mass is built challenge the Ds and Rs in a presidential contest. I think Howard could get it done, although I doubt he will take that route.

But if there is a good candidate to be a popular defector from the Democrats and build a progressive third-party to finally bury the corpse of the disorganized, spiritless, conservative and corporate-controlled Democratic Party-- Howard Dean is it.

[K-W]

24. viable third party is an oxymoron

Dean has it right, the only way to go about making change is by grabbing power in the dem party, getting the dem party in office, and changing the system so that more voices can be heard.

The kind of movement you are talking about is quite a tall order and if that many people organized and those resources were availabe, one of the major parties would shift to adopt progressive values.

To get a new party, you need to create a situation where the 2 current parties are unable to move in the direction of a large portion of the electorate, I just dont see how that is going to happen in this current state of affairs.

The conservative movement has sent the whole political system realing. Part of the fallout is the dem party losing progressive votes. The answer is a renewed dem party not a third party pipe dream for idealists with no sense of how government works.

[StandUpGuy]

30. Nice point until

the nasty, unwarranted, and unfounded attack on idealism.


Nice try otherwise.


:hippie:

[K-W]

32. I never attacked idealism.

But idealism that keeps people from getting involved in flawed systems because they would rather keep thier hands clean than create a better world is not an idealism I want anything to do with.

[StandUpGuy]

37. oh

You mean idealism practiced by idealists in the Democratic or republican parties. Otherwise they are in chasers of pipe dreams.

ABB is as dangerous if not worse than Bush himself.

Do you expect to wrestle john Kerry into pulling out the troops once elected, even though he has stated clearly he has no intention of doing so?

Is that a pipe dream. Should there not be a party that I can log a protest vote for. A vote that says war is immoral.

[K-W]

42. Why dont you read my posts rather than make a straw man out of me.

I never said anything about idealist party affiliations. I respect ideals, but ideals dont keep us out of wars. Ideals dont decide who is president and who wins congress and what our tax policy is. Ideals dont decide who gets nominated to the supreme court. The system does.

You should take your ideals and take the actions that are most likely to create a nation that fits your ideals.

For example, if your ideal is progressive, voting for Nader in a swing state is an action most likely to cause another Bush term, creating an America NOT congruent with your ideals. Sure you can go home feeling clean, because you didnt compromise your ideals, meanwhile people die so that you didnt have to compromise in the system to ACTUALLY bring some portion of your ideals onto the world.

Thanks to history we live in a country where you have a vote. A small amount of control over what our government does. You can use that control to make the government better, or you can forfit the option to protest.

I will scream at the top of my lungs that war is wrong. I will give money to anti war people, I will volunteer for them, but when I step into the voting booth my job is to weight the repercussions of my actions and make the best choice, not to forfiet the opportunity so I can make a protest vote.

There are plenty of chances to protest, you only get one chance to vote.

[bigbillhaywood]

31. Yeah, I'm ignorant no sense of how government works.

Remember a third party called the Republicans?

And do you deny that the success of other third parties such as the Progressive Party, the Populist Party, the Socialist Party, etc. forced the Dems and Repubs to adopt many of their platform issues (progressive income tax, anti-trust laws, agrarian subsidies, various social programs and labor laws) in order to avoid the fate of the Whigs?

And I suppose the Communist Party and the Trotskyists leading strikes and unemployed demonstrations during the 30s had nothing to do with the Democratic Party (still heavily influenced by segregationist Dixiecrats then) introducing the New Deal reforms to, in the words of one liberal industrialist, "save capitalism from itself".

And the next time you put a dollar bill in the vending machine or a stripper's G-string, you can thank the Greenback Party. But what the fuck do I know? I'm just an idealist with no sense of how government works.

Oh by the way, I would actually prefer a revolution and general strike where we make a clean sweep of the government and corporate management, and establish real economic and political democracy. But I'd settle for a viable progressive party any day of the week over the Democratic Party-- graveyard of progressive movements.

[K-W]

34. You attribute the results of a movement solely to the parties

associated with them. Certainly there were times when third parties did work. There have been times when the party system has undergone a shift. This is not one of those times.

Now I apologize, my post was too harsh. I agree that a third party that focuses on local politics to build a movement is viable and appropriate in our system. I am just a bit sensitive because modern third parties seem to prefer cosmetic and destructive presidential runs that make our already flawed system even more flawed.

Let me do a better job of articulating my opinion on this.

The third party route you speak of would be one of the biggest uphill battles in political history. Creating a movement like that in the current political atmosphere would take amazing organization and resources. I dont think such a risky attempt would be justified unless there was a reason to think that a less resource intensive plan to grab power in the democratic party was for some reason impossible.

I dont think that is at all the case. The democratic party shifted right because american electoral politics shifted right. The DLC got power because they raised money and won elections. I simply dont see any reason to think that a progressive organization on the left couldnt do the exact same thing as the DLC and grab just as much or more power in the democratic party.

So why take the scenic route to an effective progressive movement when the easier path is not blocked?

[StandUpGuy]

41. Not to seem hostile but ...

Where can you point me to find credible statistics that show the American electorate shifted to the right enough or any to necessitate the DNC/DLC doing so also to retain power.

I have heard the same nonsense from Blairites in Britain and Martinites in Canada. Total crap. Its been a co-ordinated power grab by the cooperate interests in each country once the electorate had shifted significantly left, enough so to create a clean sweep of the right wing governments in their respective countries. Bush/Major/Mulroney ring bells.

[K-W]

44. Did you sleep through the 80's?

Reagan handed the democrats thier rear ends. He persued a radical conservative agenda, yet he was able to trounce democrats. Bush Rode in his coatails and the democrats, who were ideologically much stronger had to sit through 12 years of Republican presidency. The old democratic plan didnt seem to be working against the republican electorate machine, so factions in the party tried different things. The DLC had success with moderation and shifting right in raising corporate money and getting some people elected. Clinton got the presidency partially due to such tactics. This gave the DLC alot of credence and power in the party. Now, in the aftermath of the Clinton presidency and the Bush presidency it seems the DLC strategy is wholly unsatisfactory. Being republican lite doesnt work, and that isnt why Clinton won, but excuse the democratic party for being desperate and going temporarily with a plan that SEEMED to hold promise.

Now we see a quest in the party to find a new strategy and it seems clear that the new shift is with liberal populism.

The American electorate didnt shift to the right, but the conservative movement created a party machine that wins elections. The democrats were realing, they tried something and it turned out bad. Do you expect perfection from a political party?

[Hoping4Change]

74. K-W, StandUpGuy and BigBill. Your exchange has been very

interesting and thought provoking. Thanx.

[bigbillhaywood]

43. I don't attribute the results of a movement merely with the parties

associated with them, although I can see how reading my post you might think that.

Let me respond to some of your points, then I'll have to be done for the night:

1. "The democratic party shifted right because american electoral politics shifted right." Yes, but how and why? The how in my opinion, is that they shifted to the right economically. Two reasons for the why in my opinion--

a. Unions dropped the ball in the 1960s. Instead of launching nationwide organizing campaigns, they sat on their laurels while the non-union workforce expanded. Also, instead of practicing international labor solidarity, they collaborated with the CIA to help scuttle left-leaning militant unions in developing countries. The end result-- unions are down to about 9% of total workforce (from 35-40% high point in 1950s). Thus their political clout is greatly reduced from "the good old days"

b. Right-wing economic libertarians have done an excellent job of grassroots organizational work over the last 30 years. They are militant, ideologically motivated, well-organized, have a clear and consistent message, and most importantly, they are well-funded.

2. "I dont think such a risky attempt would be justified unless there was a reason to think that a less resource intensive plan to grab power in the democratic party was for some reason impossible...I simply dont see any reason to think that a progressive organization on the left couldnt do the exact same thing as the DLC and grab just as much or more power in the democratic party...So why take the scenic route to an effective progressive movement when the easier path is not blocked?"

In very simple terms corporations are blocking that path. It will take a revitalized labor movement or other progressive movement of great magnitude to dislodge corporate influence, which has always been present in the Democratic Party, and is now more hegemonic than ever (at least since the 1920s). And if a movement of such magnitude exists, why even worry about taking over the Democrats? Might as well go the third party route or have a full-scale revolution at that point.

Corporations are too powerful now. There is no compromising with corporate power except for very short-term tactical purposes (union contracts, voting for Kerry, etc.), but long-term the goal of any progressive and labor-oriented movement must be to smash corporate power and restructure our economic, social and political systems. If this is not our goal, the corporations will lull us into a false sense of security and joint purpose as they have in the past, just to smash us when we are deep in the ether.

What I'm talking about is not idealism, it is learning from past mistakes, keeping vigilant eye out for the so-called "realists" (often actually pansy sell-outs and collaborators) and never losing sight of long-term goals, even when making temporary tactical concessions.

[w4rma]

49. Republicans = Whigs = Federalists. Never really a third party. (nt)

[NewJeffCT]

75. no, that's not the way to do it

The Christian Coalition / Moral Majority types of the Religious Reich went to work to change the Republican party from within... they started by electing people to their local school boards & town councils in the late 70s & early 80s and have moved up the political ranks since then. Now, the Religious Reich has a man in the White House, high ranking members of the Senate, etc in their pocket and they have effective control of the Republican party. It took them the better part of 2 decades, but they now have a stranglehold on the party and a group representing less than 20% of America effectively controls all 3 branches of government.

If Nader were truly serious about changing the Democratic Party, he would start from the bottom and work with Dean and other progressives to change the Democratic party from within, starting from the bottom up.

[bigbillhaywood]

91. Yep, and they did a damn good job of it.

Problem is that the Christian fascists had no problems collaborating with the corporate powers (and vice-versa) to gain control of the Republican Party. For anti-corporate progressives in the Democratic Party this is not an option, unless you want to sacrifice every value you have. Sure, when organized labor had more political and economic clout, they could get more of their agenda adopted by the Dems, but in doing so they made some pretty horrific concessions that led us to the state we're in now.

Please reference my exchange with K-W on this issue for more on the impossiblity of dislodging the hegemonic corporate control over the Democratic Party.

[squidbro]

98. Working from within best way to go, but can have problems

I saw this very thing happen at the University I attended several years ago.

There was a very conservative "christian" group known as Maranatha campus ministries whose agenda was to take the country back for "God". Their members ran for student government and nearly took over the campus government.

Because the student body was so apathetic toward campus politics, Maranatha was able to take advantage of low turn out. Virtually every student member of Maranatha voted for their candidates. They enlisted the student members of various groups like the Assemblies of God church also (the same group that Ashcroft is a member of, I might add).

The religious turn out was just enough to swing the elections in favor of the fanatics.

Unfortunately for Maranatha, but fortunately for everyone else, state universities are bastions of progressive thought. Maranatha's actions were enough to mobilize enough people out of their apathy and Maranatha members were very soundly defeated in the next round of elections.

The Republican party won't be able to survive much longer on a religious agenda. They are in far more need of a change than the Democratic party. Most Republicans are primarily fiscally conservative and have no desire for a religious take over. The party is in grave danger of losing those members for good. It is from that base that a third party will arise.

The far right and the far left do not have enough of a constituency to form the basis of a third party. That is precisely why the religious fanatics worked from within to stage a take over of the Republican party. The same strategy can work from within the Democratic party regarding progressive ideas. Hopefully, such tactics won't take the party too far to the extreme and alienate much of the core constituency like what is happening from within the Republican party right now.

After the election is over and the Kerry wins in a land slide, it is the Republican party that will be reeling and looking for a way to bring their people together. Unfortunately for them, the religious elements from within their party won't be willing to bend or compromise.

And as for the landslide prediction, the polls would indicate otherwise. However, it is truly only more Republican spin. The pollsters are phrasing their questions in such a way to put the Bush edministration in the best light. The true feelings of the public aren't really accurately reflected. So be it. If Bush feels he has a shot of winning, he will be less tempted to manipulate events to stage a declaration of martial law. I do know this, all of my immediate family members had voted for Bush in the last election. (Yes, I was the black sheep who correctly voted for Gore.) None of them plan to vote for Bush during the upcoming election.

It is a little farcical, but they all plan to cast protest votes for Nader. At least those votes aren't going for Bush. Many Republican voters are beginning to give the same vibes also. It spells chaos for the Republican party. It is amazing that Rove is too blind to see it, but not totally unexpected. The collective I.Q. of the Bush cabinet is probably 40 with about 36 of those points coming from Powell.

It will be interesting to watch it all play out, but the Democratic party has held together quite well during their time of crisis in the Reagan/senior Bush years. I am fairly certain that the Republicans will have a much, much more difficult time.

Had Rove been smart (he must have an I.Q. of all of about 0.001), he would have purchased the rights to Fahrenheit 9/11 and buried the film no matter what it would have cost. The film is selling out every showing here in conservative rural Eastern Washington. That can't be good news for Rove and his religious sidekick, Ralph Reed. So be it.

I'll be glad to see the Republican party ripped apart. Those religious psychopaths need to go.

[FreedomReload]

19. Can Somebody Help BugMeNot.com Out

They need salon.com on there.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. That'd be a criminal offense

Salon get paid for each registration, unlike the NYTimes or LATimes.

[Zorra]

25. Outstanding!

Out-Effing-Standing!

Let's get Dean and Kucinich to start a huge liberal-progressive movement, a Democratic organization to put pressure on DLC Dems. We could call it the Progressive Democrat Council, or something like that.

Some issues could be: Media reform, voting reform, war prevention, Health Care, re-writing the Patriot Act, Legislative Watchdog Committee, and seperation of corporation and State.

All the internet tools, publications, and organizations (like Moveon and Code Pink) that have developed in our fight against Bu$h in the neo-cons could be used for reforming the Democratic party, and making sure that Democrats address the issues critical to the maintenance and improvement of democracy in America after Kerry is elected.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. Good for Dean!! Glad to see somebody publicly unmask Nader.

[librechik]

27. "the scrupulously evenhanded National Public Radio"

nuff said

:puke:

[TA]

28. Will Pitt & Howard Dean = both woke me up

First I saw/heard Will Pitt at the San Francisco Veterns against the war convention then followed Howard Dean in his run for President. I saw, I woke up, I was inspired, I became active. Thanks guys.

[Lindsey]

33. Welcome TA

and congrats on waking up...hope there are many more of you out there. Dean is awesome, can't think of too many more people who I admire more than this American hero.

[WilliamPitt]

45. Wow

It's an honor to be even mentioned in that sentence. Thank you.

[madfloridian]

47. I agree about that speech he gave at the Vets conference.

Will and I for sure have had our differences, but that speech had my husband and I sitting there with tears. The vets were so needing someone to speak out.

Welcome to DU TA.

[Hoping4Change]

73. Hi TA

Welcome to DU. Glad you're here!:hi:

[kwolf68]

38. Dean is impressive

Unlike Nadar who just vanished after the last campaign only to rise from the dungeons Howard Dean has shaken off losing the Dem nomination by going out and continuing to fight for what is right.

My opinion of Howard Dean has never been higher than it is right now...He is working to save this freaking country. Keep hitting them Howard.

[Khephra]

39. I'm so glad that I have a DVD recorder

That debate is going onto a disk first thing tomorrow.

(Oh, btw Will, I'll be getting you the disk of your speech soon. I had to put the burner in the shop, but it's back home and working now. :hi: )

[John_H]

40. The ad: Dean proving Nader, naderites & the GOP are INDISTINGUSHABLE

All MoveOn has to do is air excerpts from the debate
along with a couple of spots addressing the union busting and wal-mart capital supplying, and ralph's relegated to wherever megalomaniacal demagogues go when they become irrelevent.

[mzmolly]

81. Excellent idea.

:toast:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. Unelectable and crazy.

Other than that, top drawer!

[mdmc]

51. He can be President

:kick:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

86. If the Man quits holding him down.

[mdmc]

87. IMAGINE !

:peace:

[opihimoimoi]

48. Dean Rocks, Nader Sucks..... eom

[Swamp Rat]

50. Nader - dangerous at ANY speed!

Thank you Howard Dean! Finally someone has publicly revealed that Nader is a sell out... to the alien lizards. Fuck off Nader, you lizard licker!

Geaux Kerry/Edwards!!!

[Pachamama]

58. Poor Ralph...he's got "Deanie Envy"....

Howard Dean is everything that Darth Nader wishes he could be and never will be....Nader is out of control like the corvairs he once fought against....

He really is a sell out...very freaky...he is unapolegetic for his acceptance of the republican funds and assistance....

Boy, I'd love it if the Boondocks strip about Nader disappearing actually happened and he went to an "undisclosed location"...

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

59. Hi Pachamama

I saw the debate. Dean wiped the floor with him even though Nader had his entire constituency there for support (cough cough). At one time in a galaxy far far away, I supported Nader, but he has since gone to the Dark Side.

[Pachamama]

60. I want to take my laser saber to Darth Nader.....Us Jedi's have to make

sure this nut case is stopped....

But our Obi Wan Dean did clean up the floor with him today - actually, I thought Dean was brilliant in his softness and commending Ralph and reaching out to him....Nader just seemed like he's demented..

Darth Nader attacked the Democratic Party and Kerry about 90% of the time and just briefly anything about the Repukes/Bush....

Just like when Nader told Tim Russert on Meet the Press that there was no difference between AWOL and Gore and that Gore would have invaded Iraq too.....WHACKO.....

[Swamp Rat]

62. Nader's twitching is due to chip malfunction. The alien lizards got to

Nader a long time ago and have been using him as a tool ever since. They'll discard his carcass after November 2nd, and feed him to the lizard drones.

[mzmolly]

82. It's time for a Sci-Fi Nader chain story. You guys are down right

entertaining. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

88. Here's some things I've posted in the Lounge recently about the alien

lizard invasion.

Well, I've been trying to tell folks for a long time about the alien lizard invasion. "Don't vote for Bush! He's an alien lizard!" I've been saying this to people for a long time but nobody listens. Their numbers have multiplied exponentially in the last few years, so they were able to take over many powerful positions around the world. If only Bill Watterson could find Spaceman Spiff and draw us outta this jam before Phase III of the invasion begins.

Yes, the invasion began a long time ago... though this was before I was born. Summers watching lizard activity in New Mexico in the late 60s and early 70s taught me how to spot 'em. One of the most powerful alien lizards in control goes by the name of "Paul Wolfowitz," (shape-shifting lizard) though he is very sloppy when comes to hiding his alien lizard mannerisms. For example, normal humans wouldn't think that spitting on a comb could hold down coarse, human hair. As an alien lizard, his spit is tacky enough to do this, so he acted on instinct. It's probably an idiosyncratic quirk that Wolfie chooses a lycanthropic form, hence the name. It could be some sort of alien lizard vanity and obsession with something they don't normally have - hair.

I have a feeling they will be revealed to the human population sometime soon, hopefully before it is too late... and not on their terms. Let's stop the invasion before it is too late!

[NYCGirl]

83. Obi Wan Deanobi...

[WillyT]

89. LOL !!! - THAT Is Priceless !!!

:toast::bounce::toast:

[Straight Shooter]

52. Well, Ralph, when you're full of sh*t, expect to be smeared with it

Dean insisted, "My purpose here is not to smear Ralph Nader," which prompted Nader to respond sarcastically, "Oh, no. Not at all!"

My state, Oregon, hoisting Nader onto the ballot by means of an anti-gay organization. For shame, for shame.

[WindRavenX]

53. Mr.Dean, I love you

I didn't support you, but BLESS YOU kind sir for telling Nader to STFU!
Rock on Dean.

[Th1onein]

54. You gotta love Howard Dean!

He is my hero! And the corporate media took him down. How? Why? Because they knew that the Dems were so scared that GW Bush would get back in, all they had to do was publicize an almost unheard "scream" over and over and over again, to make us afraid that he was "unelectable." Remember that term, unelectable?

[rumguy]

55. 'squealing with laughter'

God damn Nadar followers - they aren't supporters - they are followers in some deluded fringe suicide political cult...

[unfrigginreal]

61. Ahem

It was just a few months ago that the same was said about Dean supporters. It was a fucking asinine thing to say then and it still is.

[quaker bill]

68. On the other hand

Dean was the real deal for progressives this time around. He is a man who can stand up for progressive ideals and explain them in a manner that appeals to a broad coalition. Nader and Kucinich are both men with some good ideas but neither possess this skill.

But as usual for progressives, they did not unite behind the one voice in the campaign that could have perhaps secured the nomination and competed well for the Presidency. As Dean put it the "pure" became the enemy of the "good".

However, having seen the cliff, some of us have backed away and chosen another route. Nader supporters on the other hand choose to continue on. There is a point where this behavior becomes lemming-like.

I agree that it was asinine and quite offensive to say this several months ago. But as the election (cliff) approaches it becomes increasingly less asinine to mention the impending catastrophe.

[unfrigginreal]

71. What a ridiculous notion...

that a person that votes their conscience is acting lemming-like. Are you or I acting lemming-like for now supporting a candidate that offered nothing to gain our support other than he has the best shot to beat Bush? I'm old enough to have made a difference in our party by utilizing my vote more effectively, but here I go again, following the crowd like such a good soldier. I'm not going to second guess anyone's motives for how they cast their vote.

I personally think that Nader is an egotistical asshole, but I wouldn't paint all of his supporters with the same brush.

[Pachamama]

56. Nader to Dean "Republicans are human beings too.." (actual quote)

...Dean was challenging Nader on his acceptance of funds from top Republican donors and also the use of the anti-gay "Oregon Family Council" to collect signatures and that was one of Nader's responses to Dean (along with a personal attack on Dean about the corporate money he had accepted).

Dean did great...Nader is seriously losing it...the more I watch him in interviews and speeches, I realize that he is so far gone and delusional...yes, he is an egomaniac, but he is either schizophrenic or bi-polar...very scary...sad too, I used to admire Nader...now I pity him, but if he plays a role in the re-election of AWOL, I will despise him and wish him nothing well....

But gosh, I love Dean...He is great and I sure do hope he plays a role in the future of the DNC and the K&E administration....

I'm proud to say I supported him from the beginning....

[Swamp Rat]

57. Amen sister!

[sundog]

102. No Kidding--

Nader's character is revealed in his face...duplicitous- and it's getting more & more pronounced by the day...

I was watching him on Wolfie today -- notice how much different the two sides of his face are -- only one eye blinks & he speaks out of one side of his mouth.

I just sat there thinking his mug tells the whole story.

[bklyncowgirl]

63. Great Debate

I thought Dean did a great job. His appeals to Nader may not have won over Saint Ralph but hopefully he helped some fence sitting Naderites think very carefully about what they're doing.

[Justice]

64. "I urge you not to turn your back on your own legacy"

That is really it - isn't it? For those of us who supported and admired Nader in the past, it seems to us that he is turning his back on his own legacy.

Any chance that his running mate will convince him to return those RW donations - or any chance that his running mate will leave the ticket because he will not be a part of this?

[Killarney]

65. Dean rocks! Great job!

[WilliamPitt]

67. .

[RetroLounge]

69. Nader never stood a chance against Dean...

and Nader's audience of little green-bots was pathetic too.

Hope they all went home wondering why their Saint Ralph isn't more like Howard Dean.

RL

Zomby: Glad to see you on a positive Dean Thread. Welcome aboard :)
Will: Tainted Love...

[sallyseven]

72. I hope that Dean will head up the Democratic

National Committee. McAulife is over and we need Dean to help shape the agenda. He can foster reform and build up the Demmies to greater strength/ The repukes have to be taken down and the corps. have to be put in their place. Dean can do it very effectively. People will listen to his message and I am sure that Kerry will be happy to have him. Ralph Nader is a whore. He will sell himself to the right wing for god only knows what.

[TWiley]

79. Thank you Mr. Dean!

Myself, i have sent that asshole several e-mails over the past months. Usually i remind ralph that he suffers from delusions of grandeur, that there is no possible way he can win the election. So ralph, if you REALLY want to help the Democratic party, then i suggest that you either stuff envelopes for Kerry/Edwards, or make a healthy donation to their campaign.

The truth is that ralph simply is not presidential material. He is incapable of participating in any organized group except for the "ralph show".

As it has been said here so many times. A vote for ralph is a vote for bush.

[Bertha Venation]

85. Dear God: All I want the rest of my life is, one day, PRESIDENT DEAN.

Amen.

[BuelahWitch]

90. What about a Dean/Obama ticket? n/t

[Bertha Venation]

96. works for me n/t

[DebJ]

92. Yep.. but head of HHS would be nice for now!

O8)

[Bertha Venation]

97. yep

[cjbuchanan]

93. Nader made the case against voting for him during the debate

I posted this elsewhere yesterday, but I thought I would place it here as well.

----
At about the 28 minute mark in the debate Nader was asked about his comment that Kerry is running to the right of Bush. His response went through a lot of topics, but one of his points had to do with Kerry's support of the war resolution. Dean asked him why, if he was so upset about Kerry and the war, did he recommend Edwards for the VP pick. Nader replied that every Democrat on the VP slate was pro-war except for Dean. He then said that Dean wasn't really being considered for obvious reasons.

When he did give his reasons for supporting Edwards, he mention that he was good on "tort, Civil Justice and the right of Americans to sue."

So to sum up, he did not support Dean because he did not have a chance of becoming the VP candidate and he did support Edwards because, even though he disagreed with him on an issue as big as the war resolution, he saw good in his record.

Isn't this the same thing that upsets Nader about Democrats. You know that they support candidates who they disagree with on some big issues but they still believe they will be better the Republicans overall.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this. Maybe Ralph did not mean for me to take his statement in this manor, but I do wonder how he can blast Kerry for supporting the war resolution yet support him picking a running mate that also supported the war resolution. It just seems to me, by his own statement and stated beliefs, that if he agrees with Dean on so many issues, that he would have put his neck out and suggested that Kerry pick Dean for his VP. He also had the choice of suggest that Kerry pick Kucinich, but instead he went with a person he disagreed with but who had a chance of actually getting the nod.

To me it seems like Nader made the decision so many others on the left are making, go with the person who most agrees with you and has a chance of actually winning the White House.

Nader did it with his VP recommendation and I plan on doing it with my vote.

[Anwen]

94. Dean is my hero!

This makes me so happy! :bounce: Yet at the same time it is bittersweet, because I still believe he would have been the best candidate. However, as long as he continues to speak out and energize the Dems, I am happy.

[Sugarbleus]

95. Nader's Rhetoric is the same...it sounded good back then

it rather sounds good now.........BUT he isn't even following his own advice! He isn't "poor", he takes money from whereever he can get it...sounds like Bushco!

He doesn't understand what we are up against here in this election..he is a spoiler AND HE DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN! That's what's wrong with him...HE DOENS'T CARE.

This election isn't about HIM and his gd ego, it's about us and this democracy. We can work out the details of how we want our country run after we REMOVE THE FASCISTS from office. Is Nader brain dead on these facts or what????

I am for a third party actually but I realize one has to start out at the local level in local governments; work their way up, become noticed and appreciated in their work, create a strong base etc. You can't just pop up all of a sudden and start running for prez. Geeeeeeeeeez

[DoveTurnedHawk]

100. Dean ROCKS!

I love it!

DTH

[Must_B_Free]

101. Dean's persistence

is demonstrating firsthand for us what kind of guy he is for those of us who didn't know about him when he was in the running.

[mzmolly]

104. Thanks. I think many are just getting to know Dean.

;)