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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:09 AM
Original message
My review of Fahrenheit 911
When all is said and done, I think the best and also the creepiest thing
about this movie is the opening. The film begins with a sequence showing
Gore's victory celebration after (he thought) winning Florida in the 2000
election. Moore starts asking "Was it real? Or was it a dream?" The past
that we could have had is displaced by the one that actually happened, as
Fox News 'calls' Florida for Bush, the other networks issue retractions,
the Supreme Court rules, and Gore finally concedes. Then he shows what for
me was probably really the most depressing and shocking part of the movie:
the protest by members of the Congressional Black Caucus at the
certification of the 2000 presidential election results. As president pro
tem of the Senate, Gore is stuck overseeing the procedure that will ratify
the illegitimate election of his rival. According to the rules of order, an
objection can only be registered if it is backed by at least one member of
the Senate. All the people bringing objections to the floor are members of
the House, and they're all African-American, and they are all protesting
the disenfranchisement of African-American voters in Florida. One by one
they go through the same ritual: my objection is in writing, it is signed
by me and many of my constituents and colleagues, but we could not find a
single senator willing to sign it. And one after another gets dismissed by
Gore and his gavel, while the senators sit there and watch.

I don't remember coverage of any of that. It's sickening to watch now,
knowing what happened afterward. Like all of his Senate colleagues, Gore
was afraid to challenge the election because he didn't know what would
happen otherwise and was afraid to find out. What *would* we have done if
the Congress had refused to certify the election results based on those
objections? Gore goes on banging that gavel as if he doesn't care; but he's
got to know that he's in a painful and impossible situation. He's afraid,
as we were all afraid, to acknowledge what's really happening. It's easier,
he's thinking, it's safer, it's better for the country to accept the
Supreme Court as the final authority and resign himself to four years of
George W. Bush instead of opening the floodgates of God knows what kind of
civil war.

That sequence ends with Moore's voiceover saying, "It wasn't a dream...it
really happened that way." And then Moore begins what is probably the most
important sequence, structurally speaking, in the film: the opening
credits. The black and white text of the credits is intercut with footage
that Moore dug out of some newsroom's vaults of members of the Bush
administration being made up for the cameras before their media
appearances. One by one we see Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rice, Ashcroft, and
Wolfowitz facing the camera as hands reach out from beyond the shot to
smooth their hair down, dab powder along their foreheads and cheekbones,
smear on foundation, and attach earpiece wires to the backs of their
collars. It picks up the theme he's already established and sets up the
frame for the rest of the story. These are our national leaders; but they
are also actors being made up for the parts they are about to play. What
these players are about to perform, and what you have been living through
for the past three and a half years, is a scripted, rehearsed, staged
narrative designed to manipulate you. And, of course, so is this movie.

That, to me, is the best thing about *Fahrenheit 911*: it captures the
sense that we all have of being in wonderland, where something can be a
dream and real at the same time. Everything that this administration has
done has been, in some sense, fake. Bush's ranch in Texas is fake; his
cowboy act is fake; his rationales for war are fake; the personae they
present to the public are fake. And at the same time, all of this artifice
and absurdity produces horribly concrete results--dead children, destroyed
homes, mangled bodies, wounded soldiers, death, poverty, grief. For them,
it's all a show, and they can walk away when it's over--and they do, in a
closing sequence that mirrors the first, and shows the same players turning
away from the camera, revealing the wires running down the backs of their
necks as they walk out of the shot. The rest of the film's subjects are
stuck living the reality these actors have created.

That frame is also a self-conscious commentary on Moore's own methods, and
that's another thing that I think makes *Fahrenheit 911* better than his
other efforts. Moore is on camera less here than in any of his other
movies; there are the obligatory grandstanding stunts (Moore asking members
of Congress to get their children to enlist to help the war effort; Moore
driving around in an ice cream truck reading the text of the USA Patriot
Act through a loudspeaker so that all the legislators who signed the bill
without reading it can finally find out what it says) but in most of the
film he lets the events and his subjects have the camera. But he's always
there behind it all, arranging and editing and creating the narrative, and
the constant voiceover never lets you forget it. The frame acknowledges and
accepts in advance the criticism Moore knows he's going to get--that the
film is biased, slanted, manipulative. Sure, he says. It is. And so is
every other story that we have been told, by the Bush administration and
the media, about what was really going on.

The most emotionally involving use of this staged/real dichotomy is the
segment of the film that follows Linda Lipscomb, a Flynt woman whose son
Michael is killed in the Iraq war. Initially identifying herself as a
"conservative Democrat" who's insanely proud of her country and of her son
and daughter serving in the military, and who admits to having "hated"
people who were protesting the Vietnam War and Gulf War, Lipscomb walks us
through her reaction to the death of her son and finally winds up heading
to the White House for a symbolic confrontation with the man who ordered
him into battle for a war that, as the film has long established, was not
fought for any legitimate reason. As Moore's crew films her conversation
with a protestor who has camped out in front of the White House, another
woman walks into the shot and starts arguing with her, saying that "all
this is staged." Lipscomb says, "My son was not a stage," and when the
woman finally starts to become convinced that in fact Lipscomb is a real
person whose son really has been killed in Iraq, she calls out "Blame Al
Qaeda!" as she walks away.

Well, Lipscomb is real and so is her grief and so was her son; but she is
also being staged. Moore is using her the way the soldier's mother has been
used time and time again--as a way of making the son's sacrifice real,
palpable, and emotionally affecting for the viewer. She presumably knows
that her grief is being staged, since she has consented to be in Moore's
film--because he knows, and probably she knows it too, that unless someone
can tell this story in the language that American mass media consumers have
been trained to understand, it will never reach them. And that is one thing
that Moore does extremely well: explain things that most Americans assume
they have no prayer of understanding--such as, for instance, the web of
interlocking international corporate influence that makes the Bush family
dependent on the Bin Laden family--in terms that are familiar and graspable
because they are drawn from the same sensationalist idiom used on them by
the mass media. That's what makes these movies successful; and that's what,
I hope to God, will make them influential in November.

There's a lot else in the film, which is essentially devoted to telling the
story of how the Bush administration manipulated the public response to 911
in order to generate support for an unnecessary and illegitimate invasion
of Iraq that they had already been planning to do anyway. I focus on the
stuff I just talked about because so much of the rest of the film is
already familiar to me--so familiar that I couldn't really feel anything as
I watched it other than a sense of weary dread. For other viewers, no
doubt, some of this stuff will be more powerful. There is some very
disturbing footage from the Iraq war. One of the more sinster segments is
the video from a Christmas Eve raid on a Baghdad family's house, in which
American soldiers bust in looking for their 'target,' search the house,
terrify the women, and finally end up knocking him down and cuffing him and
then dragging him out. While all this is going on, the soldiers are yelling
in English, the family is yelling in Arabic, and a female translator is
vainly trying to get everyone to calm down so she can explain what's
happening. The Arabic dialogue is subtitled, so that we can understand what
the women are saying but the soldiers in the scene cannot. And what they're
saying is what anyone would be saying in that situation--what do you want?
What has he done? Why are you taking him? But of course the soldiers don't
answer, because they can't understand any of it; they leave the translator
to deal with all that while they go ransack the house. And then there's the
cut back to the officer calmly explaining from his HQ that this war is
really all about winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

But most of the second half of the film follows the American soldiers and
not the civilians; and this must also be a calculated move. Moore knows
that his audience will care more about the American casualties, and so, I
would venture to say, does he. As ironic as it is, the film does show a
kind of hurt, baffled, but still sincere patriotism which attaches most
strongly to the soldiers who, as Moore says, have done something amazing by
agreeing to give their lives for their country, or as he puts it to go into
battle "so we don't have to." And, as he has been arguing all along, it is
precisely these people, and their families, who have been screwed the
hardest by the administration that turned "support the troops" into a
universal dissent-quashing mantra.

Biased, slanted, manipulative: yes, absolutely. Just like all the other
stories we've been told. But at least this time, it's a story that hasn't
been told before, at least not in the mainstream media for a general
audience. And at least this time, it might have the effect of getting
people to ask questions, instead of encouraging them to sit down, shut up,
and watch their neighbors for signs of disloyalty to the homeland.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hiya Plaid...
Always like your writing style. If you would please submit a photo to the gallery.....
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Absolutely Brilliant Review

Best review I've read of F911 & I've read plenty.

There are lots of scenes I could mention but the one that sticks in my mind is the 2 young Soldiers (my god they are just kids)& one is taking the time to explain that he can hook up his CD or MP3 player inside his
fighting vehicle & listen to tunes while he goes about his business.

It was surreal
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gooberd69 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. yes it was surreal...
but it is also a reality of war. These are young men and women that have been asked to perfom an act that i dare say you or i would not be capable of performing. Do not trivialize what their actions. Debate the merits of the war...not the men fighting the war.
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homelandpunk Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. what a crock o' shit.
You say "These are young men and women that have been asked to perfom an act that i dare say you or i would not be capable of performing." Why could you not "perform"? Are theses "young men and women" superior to you? Why are they put on this unattainable height? I'll tell you why. So you can justify your position and why you aren't over there yourself.
You say "Do not trivialize what their actions." Meaning MM should not have let us know the bogus nature of this war. It should not be filmed. Because filming it will trivialize what you percieve in your mind heroic, superhuman feats, which mere mortal chickenhawks could not (um, will not) do. It's disappointing for you to see filmed the bullshit you support.
A war of choice SHOULD be trivialized, mocked, ridiculed, scorned, and btw, you choose to say "the MERITS of the war." What are they?
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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. one thing
"Linda Lipscomb" is really Lila Lipscomb.

Other than that, excellent writing and analysis. I'm glad you're feeling better after your dental ordeal. :hi:
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Luv it Luv it Luv it... one thing...Gore shoulda, woulda, coulda...
he took the safe route when it fact, it was not the safe route. it was the dangerous route as we allowed a dangerous man in there.... and Gore shoulda known this... for America he shoulda put up a fuking fight.

It was about America, our Nation, that was at stake.. it was worth fighting for.// still is.. but here She is, 4 years later, wounded and bleeding....still pisses me off,
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. 9-11
I remember well the time the Black Caucus stood and made their objections about the Florida debacle known to the world. Over at dems.com at the time, we debated their issue furiously for several days. Had just one senator stood with them...at some political risk...we might not have seen what we have seen over the ensuing 3 1/2 years. None of it. Bush would have realized that his 'stolen' election was not going to be a 'cakewalk.' The same debate was going on here at DU at the time. Floods of calls, emails, faxes, and letters were going out to our leadership at that time in protest. We, and our efforts, were all ignored.

I was sorry that Mike did not include the acts of the DeLay Brownshirts at the poling place in Florida in the film. It would have been a dramatic moment--only needed an off-camera voice explaining what had gone on in that most corrupt selection in our nation's history.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Or a single democratic senator could have signed on
to the challenge in the House. Good thing none of those spineless senators are running for... oh, nevermind.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. There must be a reason not a single senator didn't sign it
Sure I'll admit that half of our caucus has no spine like our leader Daschle. But we do have a group very good senators like Kennedy, Schummer, Durbin, Wellstone (at the time), Corzine, etc. Had they thought that there was some way to actually stop chimp from becoming president, you know that they would have. I'm not exactly sure how the procedure works but I think if a senator had signed the petition, then the president would've just been chosen by the house which was Republican controlled.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Yes, it would have done nothing about the "outcome" BUT
it would have put Bush on notice that we knew he stole the goddamned election. I was one of those who wrote and called and faxed and emailed -- to no avail. I watched it on C-Span and it was horrific. I felt it was a huge betrayal.

There WAS a reason they didn't -- Daschle had made a deal with the Repugs in the Senate that they would exchange their non-protest of the electors for more resources, since the Senate was so evenly split. What a deal, huh?
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. It depends on the logistics of that deal...
If it meant just more money for the dem senators then I would've said to hell with it. If that was the deal that made it so that there were even numbers of democrats and republicans on the committees then it might've been worth it. Assuming we didn't know that Jim Jeffords would switch in a few months anyway.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. D'OH!
That's what happens when you write these things at 3 am in the morning after one viewing. THanks for catching that.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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Concordance Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. Moore....
I somewhat liked, or better said respected Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Agreed with most of it. But this latest wonder of his... Well, I would describe the work as cowardly, opportunistic, and incomplete. Ideologically speaking. There no mention of anti-Arab and anti-Muslim hysteria that motivated the American public and the Iraqi war in first place. Yes, the administration is at fault. But public shares the blame as well. There is no mention of Israel and underlying, undeniable, and unquestionable motivation for war coming from that "arena". There is no real mention of Iraqi casualties and the true toll on the Iraqi people. Despicable! People say he couldn't have fit it all in. I think he did not want to. He sold out and gave in. Enjoy your millions, hope they help you sleep at night.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Disagree Concordance...
Much of the American population joined the rest of the world in protesting Bush's rush to war. We were in the streets. We were on freeway bridges with large signs. We were marching. In some cities, traffic was brought to a stop. Millions of others around the world protested this rush to a needless war.

For you to say that Moore sold out is a false premise. There are time restraints where one item is weighed against other items. Inside of two hours, Moore captured the spirit of the times.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I think Moore walked a fine line very well
Edited on Sat Jul-10-04 12:04 PM by GreenPartyVoter
Could he have shown more of the big picture of the various conspiracy theories that he passed by? You bet. But he also would have run the risk of being completely margianalized by John Q. Public if he had brought up Lihop and Mihop.

Instead, he gave the American mainstream enough info to seriously doubt the admin. I think many of them are now looking into what else the junta has done, and they will discover for themselves about the various conspiracy "theories" out there.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Bingo.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Well, what an interesting post. Too bad for you that the Cannes Film...
....Festival disagreed by giving F911 it's top award.

And also too bad for you that F911 is well on it's way to grossing $100 million, completely smashing the previous record of $21.5 million held by Moore's previous film "Bowling for Columbine" for which Moore won the Oscar.

Here's a breakdown of the costs for F911:

$6 million: Cost of the actual production of F911. Owed to the owners of Miramax that bought the rights to the film from Disney.

$12 million: Cost for the distribution of F911.

60% of all profits: Going to charities designated by Disney.

Cost of television and other advertising: Unknown.

Other hidden costs: Unknown.

Current gross revenue: Approximately $78 million estimated through this weekend of 7/9-7/11.

As to your other "criticisms", if he had added in all of the other information, the film would have run 4-5 hours in length. No matter how hard-hitting that film would have been, the number of people willing to sit that long to see it would have been very low.

"He sold out"?? Luckily, very few people share your opinions.


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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Oh, He Sold Out Alright !!!
Edited on Sat Jul-10-04 01:12 PM by WillyT
Theater, after theater, after theater, after theater, after theater, after theater, after theater, after theater.......

Christ... some people miss the point entirely!!!

:wtf:

"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Onedit: BTW Plaid, Most Excellent Review!!!

:toast::bounce::toast:

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Concordance Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. Huh?
What does that have to do with anything?

One only needs eyes to see and ears to hear.

The truth stings, burns, and angers the hearts of men.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. He did mention the media quite a bit
Who do you think is responsible for all of that anti-Arab anti-Muslim hysteria, besides the administration?
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. And your movie showing everything will be out when???????
I think it is a remarkable feat and am so thankful we have true "Patriots" like Mike Moore.
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joshdawg Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 05:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Saw the movie a couple of days ago.
Great review. Couldn't have said it better myself. I recommend this movie to all and especially to right-wingers who might find some truth in it about their so-called "leader."
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Ozonesafe Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. I also thought it was good...
In the tradition of "A Mighty Wind" and "Dogshow". Very funny movies. The three of them.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. You didn't see it, freeptard
now take a walk back to the hole you crawled out of! :eyes:
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kispoko Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
9. nice review
i finally got to go thursday night..... my 'friend' sorta ducked out on me after talking about how much she'd wanted to go over the preceding week, so, i just said "cheney it," and went myself (hey, if i can watch 'a low down dirty shame' by myself in a theater, f/9-11 oughta be more than doable in the same situation. hehe).


best way, i think, to describe the movie is that it moves you to a rolling boil, after beginning with boiling your blood by showing the cbc get up one after another, and be asked to sit, one after another..... the black screen for september 11 was powerful, but he missed an equally powerful moment by not juxtaposing the terror (and by that, i'm not even necessarily alluding to the towers, as i understand his reasoning for not showing them during the 'blackout' i just mentioned) that was going on while bush sat in that classroom..... imagine a shot of that, beside a shot of what the people were experiencing in these places, for the full duration of the time bush sat.

a missed opportunity.....


describing the 'brush-ups' of administration officials before going on camera as being what it was/is (i.e. actors preparing for their roles) is appropos, and was a brilliant move. how did he ever come across these things anyway? i was thinking, "i'll bet ashcroft just loooves having that black guy prettying him up :P." i think this helped 'humanize,' if you will, these figures, for a lot of people. and in some parts, i even thought moore went as far as to cast some of them, including bush, in an empathetic light, or created an environment whereby that could easily be construed as the conveyed sentiment.

did anyone else get that feeling?


i found it weird that lipscomb described herself as a "conservative." that coupled with her multiculturalist sentiment and lifestyle, shows that the average person doesn't understand the context of words like "conservative" and "liberal." there's nothing at all socially conservative about such things as that.

that's an aside though..... lila's story is the most gut-wrenching thing in the movie, outside of the few relative moments they spent on sept. 11th. when she meets that robot in d.c. who exclaims the protestor in her tent is all a "stage," and the confrontation which ensues........ when she reads her son's last letter home........ it's just too much.


but people need to see these things, as well as the bodies in iraq, and the injuries that war has wrought, to be aware of the repercussions of their and others' actions, and their inaction as well.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Re: pre-appearance film
describing the 'brush-ups' of administration officials before going on camera as being what it was/is (i.e. actors preparing for their roles) is appropos, and was a brilliant move. how did he ever come across these things anyway?

Those are from the few minutes "test" broadcasts before satellite feeds are transmitted to the public. I believe they're called "live feeds."
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. I think that the general public views "conservative" and "liberal"
in terms of stereotypes about social issues.

When wingnut radio hosts or commentators condemn a candidate as "too liberal," they want to plant in their listeners' minds an image of a candidate who wants to make abortion compulsory, force straight people to marry gays, take away all weapons except cap guns, and make all working class white people split their incomes fifty-fifty with black criminals on welfare.

Lila Lipscomb is an economic liberal and doesn't know it.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. One "primping" scene grossed out entire audience.
When Wolfowitcz sticks his comb in his mouth and gets it good and slathery with spit and attempts to plaster down his cowlick, then repeats, the whole audience went "EEUUUWWWWWW".
Gah-rohss!
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Oh my God, that was SO nasty.
And then that poor handler had to TOUCH it! And he's just looking at everyone like, "What? Why's everyone turning green and barfing? What'd I do?"

The scene of them making up Cheney was more sinister--I mean it's like mortuary makeup, where they take a dead guy and try to make him look lifelike.

Shudder,

The Plaid Adder
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. Best review I've read by far.
I felt the same way, but couldn't say it as eloquently. Thanks.
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LiberalManiacfromOC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. Brilliant
Best 9-11 review. Hit the nail right on the head.
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Longhorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
24. Outstanding review!
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I've read so many F9/11 reviews that I really didn't think I was interested in another one but I'm so glad I gave yours a chance! :toast:
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gooberd69 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. My "review"
Considering myself a moderate...i felt this movie cheapened honest debate over whether or not the Iraq war was valid. By manipulating these "facts" Moore did a great disservice...I would like to see an honest debate over the facts.

1. Florida Election night. Fox, along with the other major networks, called the state for gore initially. CBS was the first to retract it's call as Gore in the winner in Florida. True, Fox called the race to Bush first...at 2:00 in the morning...4 hours after CBS and the other retracted their initial call. This was not the impression given by Moore.

2. Bush's first 8 months and 'vacation time'. Moore talked about Bush not getting any legislation passed. While one may argue the merits of his legislation, did he not get a large tax cut passed, while not controlling the Senate? And I think the vacation time is a pretty bogus claim. Considering it is a 24x7 job...no democrat or republican president really has 'vacation time'.

3. Taking out of context 'jokes'. I think this really takes away from honest debate which needs to happen. Bush's talk about the 'haves' and the 'have mores'...leaves out who he was talking to...and with whom he was talking. It was a fundraiser...for health care for the poor...and Gore was there also. Gore also poked fun at himself, but both men were doing an honorable thing in raising money for a worthy cause. This too took away from Moore's credibility.

4. Reading to school children. I must admit, when I first heard this I questioned what the correct response should have been on the "pResidents" part. Honest people could debate he should have left immediately...but Moore does not do this. I'm not certain what would have been accomplished. Even the principal...who did not vote for Bush...stands by the decision of Bush.

5. Saudi departures from U.S. Again, Moore trivializes the debate that should happen by failing to mention that Richard Clark was the one that authorized the departures. This is a debate that should happen, but partisan politics is preventing honest debate.

6. The "Saudi connection". This is the biggest area where I believe Moore cheapens the debate. Honest questions should be asked why the Saudis have such influence in this country. But, the Saudi prince had considerable influence with Clinton...as well as Bush. Both parties have considerable influence...or are influenced...by the Saudis. Honest questions need to be asked and Moore doesn't ask them. Instead he engages in the usual partisan politics.

7. Again, honest questions need to be asked about this. Many in Washington have relations with this group. Valid or not? One of the largest...is George Soros. Reading this board for quite some time, I believe he is a favorite. Again...honest questions need to be asked.

8. Secret Service. From their website it states..."Uniformed Division officers provide protection for the White House Complex, the Vice-President's residence, the Main Treasury Building and Annex, and foreign diplomatic missions and embassies in the Washington, DC area"...yet Moore gave the impression that they were primarily protecting the Saudi embassy because of some connection. Again, I believe this takes away from the honest debate that needs to happen.

9. The Unocal Pipeline. According to reports I've read, by the time Bush took office the pipeline was a dead issue. It was mainly a Clinton-era initiative...but was dead by the time of Bush. And no construction on any pipeline has begun...but Moore does not give that impression. Again, I feel that honest debate should happen...but Moore has trivialized this issue.

10. The Oregon Troopers...Moore gives the impression this is the fault of Bush. I'd like to know more. The state of Oregon has been under a budget shortfall. Honest debate again...is that the fault of Bush and tax cuts. I'd like to know...but again Moore trivialized the issue.

11. Flying flags...Moore gave the impression that life was grand in Iraq before America liberated that country. While I would love to debate the merits of the invasion...I think you do a great dis-service to the debate when you portray the country as 'happy-go-lucky land.' Bad move on Moore's part.

I have many more areas where I believe there should be serious debate about Bush and his policies. Moore manipulated the troops, by showing them as cold blooded killers with playing music and "torture", and then showed them as victims being killed or injured in "Bush's War". Honest debate should happen on this, but I think Moore manipulated and trivialized all these debates. It's too bad...as Americans we need that debate.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Thanks for the RW talking points
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Hmmmm... I don't want to go one by one: Moore has already done that. But:
"Reading to school children. I must admit, when I first heard this I questioned what the correct response should have been on the "pResidents" part. Honest people could debate he should have left immediately...but Moore does not do this. I'm not certain what would have been accomplished. Even the principal...who did not vote for Bush...stands by the decision of Bush."

She was not "selected" president. HE should know what to do... and reading my little goat was not the correct thing to do. And Moore did not want to say what he should have done either...what all of us know is that "My Pet Goat" was not killing people in NY. And do you know that THERE IS NO PROOF that he issued ANY orders the entire day?????

Saudi departures: Richard Clarke WAS PART OF BUSH'S administration...

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harrison Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. I have seen 911 twice and read many reviews. Yours is the
most incisive that I have read.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kick For A Great Review !!!
:toast::kick::toast:
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thanks, Plaid. I just read your first paragraph and
I feel so validated! I was CRYING during that footage of the African American Representatives doing what needed to be done. Their dignity, their courage and no one seemed to care or recognize it.

And then of course, after that, the black screen. I was crying even more because my sister was sitting right beside me but on that day she was in NYC.

Ok, back up the page to read the rest of your review.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
38. good review. (n/t)
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kick for the best review I've seen
Althoooooo, I really take some exception to this contention:

Biased, slanted, manipulative: yes, absolutely.

And my quibble has to do with connotation, not denotation. Your string of adjectives makes it sound like it's also false. Perhaps that's because we're so used to seeing/hearing so much that's false in the biased, slanted, manipulative propaganda we get on a daily basis.

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