Ok please excuse my ignorance on this subject... Why did we go to war in

[southernleftylady]

Vietnam and what did we get accomplished? What were the reasons given and what were the people saying in support of it? I know now that people think it was wrong to go over there and it was a horrible war but people had to support it back then ... i just havent heard anything on the other side in suport for it

[kentuck]

1. To stop the evil scourge of communism...

After they were accused of attacking one of our ships in the Gulf of Tonkin....Then the Marines landed at Pleiku and Danang....and the rest followed...

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Communism. We had to stop it.

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

3. Which is ironic, our Patriot Act and related policies are turning us into

the type of government we hated and fought against.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. With the key exception of the even redistribution of wealth

[IronLionZion]

4. Domino theory I think

that was way before my time but people thought if Vietnam fell to the communists, then one by one all of Asia would too, and then who knows?

Vietnam is still Communist today, as is China and North Korea so that theory is bunk.

[indepat]

29. Bingo. We had to stop the commie scourge for if South Vietnam fell,

life would never be the same in the Western world: life as we knew it would cease. So we killed/maimed maybe a million or two Vietnamese, laid the countryside to waste, and I lost my eldest first cousin making the world safe for democracy.

[Killarney]

5. Similar to today

You know how today conservatives feel that to stop terrorism, they must take over countries and convert them to democracies? Same thing with Vietnam. To stop communism, they wanted to take over countries and force them to become democracies (Cuba, Vietnam, etc.). The same problem applies to both then and now in that you can't FORCE people to become a democracy, especially when the people themselves don't even want it. That's why the Vietnamese didn't help us 100% and why the Iraqi's aren't helping us 100%. Back then people were confused as to why the Vietnamese weren't helping us more in our "liberation" of them and now the same dumbasses wonder why the Iraqi's didn't greet us with flowers and candy like Cheney said they would. These conservatives never change and never learn from their mistakes.

:(

Like you, I didn't know much about Vietnam until this year. I wasn't born yet when it was going on and it wasn't in the history books yet when I was in school. But I've learned a lot about it this year through DU and other sources and the parallells to Iraq are disturbing.

[Kipepeo]

16. I heard a piece on NPR this morning

about Vietnam zippo lighters...how a lot of the soldiers would engrave slogans, poems, mottos on their zippo lighters and this one guy is collecting them and making songs out of the words they chose to engrave. The one that struck me the most was:

We are the Unwilling
Led by the Unqualified
To do the Unnecessary
For the Ungrateful

It just struck me as really sad, and also really applicable to what is happening today.

[classof56]

6. To save us from godless communism

That was the line I (regrettably) bought into back then. They called it the "domino theory", which said that if Vietnam was taken over by those evil commies, next thing you know it would be Cambodia, Laos, then Korea and Japan, and those dominos would just keep falling until...well, it's lost in my memory just how that was going to work, but I suppose the final domino that fell would be our own US of A. I was very young then, and honestly thought my government would not blatantly deceive me. When protest marchers became to appear on the streets of Seattle (I lived near there then), I was quite incensed, wondering how these "peaceniks" dared protest against such a worthy cause as fighting communism.

Okay, I was stupid, I know that now. I'm sure there were underlying reasons I never guessed at the time that propelled us into the disaster that was Vietnam. I'm sure there are a lot of very very rich people who got that way because of all the senseless deaths during that conflict. I don't get it, sort of like I now don't get going to Iraq because of weapons of mass destructions based one our CIC's determination to make him and his friends very very rich. This time, I did not buy into the lie like I did all those years ago w/Vietnam. I stood on street corners--an old lady standing in silent protest against the war. At least with the Vietnam protestors, their efforts paid off eventually. I only hope and pray that years from now, we are not carving 55,000 plus names on a wall to memorialize those of our youth who have died in another pointless cause. I hope and pray my grandchildren's names are not among them.

I know you'll get a better, more comprehensive answer to your question. This is just my perspective. Let us not make the same mistakes that cost so many lives.

Let us vote Bush out!!

Tired Old Cynic

[Killarney]

8. Domino Theory

That got me thinking... now they're using the Domino Theory in the Middle East as well, but in a different way. They're trying to say that if we convert Iraq into a Democracy, then the other Arab countries will fall like dominos and become democracies as well once they see how great it is. Using the same theory on us in a different way.

[classof56]

11. Hadn't thought of it that way...

But good point. And you know, it worked so well in Vietnam, I'm sure it will work in the ME, too. And Iraq is off to such a great start, it will serve as a wonderful example of how democracy works and the other Arab countries are bound to jump in, saying they "want some of that!"

Sorry...couldn't resist the sarcasm. But now that you've brought up the Domino Theory connection, I'll be thinking in those terms. Gotta love the way this administration works, huh? Bring on the body bags!

[alphafemale]

14. We backed and supported Bin Laden to defeat "Godless Communism"

Talk about Karma running over the Dogma. :(

[classof56]

15. Well put!

Karma running over the Dogma--what a picture comes to my mind! Great quote--you definitely have a way with words. Keep 'em comin' and let's defeat Bush!!

[spanone]

9. Same bullshit....we wanted to tell someone else how to live their lives.

[FloridaPat]

10. We went for the oil. NYT had an article around 1970 about

the huge oil reserves off the coast of southern Vietnam. After the war was over, BP, Exxon, and Amoco tried to get the new government to keep the contracts that had been signed to drill for oil.

What we accomplished: 4 million dead Vietnamese civilians, 44,000 dead US soldiers, billions thrown away, thousands of dead Cambodians, and a lot of people that know the government lies and can spot it a mile away.

[troublemaker]

13. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner...

this is the post most disconnected from reality I've ever seen, and that's saying a lot.

The US Civil war, the war of the Roses, the crusades, the Punic wars the Pelopponesian War and the war on poverty were also all about oil.

[kayell]

32. Yes, just google Viet Nam and oil

You will be amazed. But there is always a convenient boogie-man like communism or terrorism to blame for our own greed.

[mike_c]

12. get thee to the video store...

...and rent "Fog of War." Much will be explained.

[Blue Wally]

17. No......

Go to a bookstore and buy "Best and the Brightest" by David Halberstam (recently reprinted) and see what led up to US involvement in Vietnam. Halberstam doesn't have an axe to grind.

[m-jean03]

19. Another good book

is "Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers" by Daniel Ellsberg.

Controversial but fascinating.

[Blue Gardener]

39. Bill Clinton's Book

I'm reading the part right now where he talks about the Vietnam war. Very insightful.

[TahitiNut]

18. The 'reasons' were orchestrated.

The ideological theme of the orchestra was the so-called "Domino Theory" in Asia. It was thought that Communism had to be stopped with force. It's a strange notion, actually. Is Communism so attractive that when your neighbor gets it then you've got to get one too? If that's the case, then Cuba should've caused the US to succumb.

The precipitating event of the commitment of US military forces was the Tonkin Gulf incident ... which was a hoax.

A motivating economic factor was the agricultural potential of the Mekong Delta. The Vietnamese could grow enough rice in the fertile Mekong Delta (and other fertile areas of Vietnam) to feed all of China.

Another motivating economic factor was the rubber plantations, particularly the Michelin plantations. That's part of the economic colonialism that survived the overtly colonial days.

A legitimizing factor was SEATO - of which the US was a member.

It should be noted that despite promises (at different times) by all 'sides' in the series of conflicts in Vietnam ... free democratic elections have yet to be held.

[onecitizen]

20. sorry I don't have anything.......

to add to the discussion, I just wanted to say what a very cute baby in the picture!

[southernleftylady]

24. Oh thank you that is my son Cade! :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. LBJ wanted to prove he was tough on communism.

It started earlier but that was the reason we really got into it.

Same reason we're in Iraq. Same reason Kerry & Edwards voted for it.

Tough on Terra'.

[VolcanoJen]

22. OK, this "history repeating itself" stuff seriously freaks me out.

I'm an 80's child, and I thank the heavens for you 50's and 60's DUers who can educate us "kids" about the environment, propaganda and rhetoric that surrounded Vietnam.

We need to know this. Reading the responses in this thread, Iraq certainly shapes up to be of the same proofless fear.

Thanks, everyone in this thread.

[calico1]

23. I am glad you are interested.

I am not trying to be patronizing by the way, but a lot of people of your generation are not (like my stepdaughter).

The story is always the same--We go in to "free" people and in order to "free" them we must FORCE them into an American style democracy whether they like it or not. Oh, and yes..we also have to kill a lot of them in order to make them "free." And of course a lot of our own young people.

[southernleftylady]

25. If it doesn't affect them they dont care...

my sister is one of those gen. x'ers... and it drives me CRAZY! until there is a bomb in her neighborhood she didn't care.. but she is waking up slowly.. she voted Nader last time.. she is voting Kerry this time!
but thats what kills me about my generation... you are correct.. they don't care... ignorance is bliss

[Jim__]

26. The background to Vietnam is a long story.

I'll give you my take on it; without claiming any expertise. After WWI, Wilson went to Europe to sign the treaty ending the war. One of Wilson's 14 points was that people had a right to self-determination. At the time Ho Chi Minh was fighting to get the French out of Vietnam. He thought the right of self-determination would apply to his country. It didn't. The only people who took him seriously were the communists. Ho Chi Minh became a communist.

WWII - The Vietnamese were promised that if they fought against the Japanese, they would be given their independence after the war. The Vietnamese fought valiantly against the Japanese; but, at the end of WWII, they were not given their independence. So, the Vietnamese fought a guerrilla war against the French and defeated them at Dien Bien Phu (sp) in, I think, 1954. There was a meeting held in Geneva, and Vietnam was divided into North and South, with an agreement that a vote would be taken (I think it was to be in 1957) that would unify the country under the leadership of whoever the people voted for. On the South, there was Diem, a Catholic in a Buddhist country, a man who lived in France during WWII, a man generally hated by the Vietnamese. In the north was Ho Chi Minh, essentially a Vietnamese hero who had been fighting for years to free his country. There was no doubt what the outcome of the election would be. The election was called off by Diem.

An insurrection started in the South, the North joined in. The government of Diem had little popular support and it would be overthrown. Now remember, Ho Chi Minh is a communist. This was the heart of the cold war. At the same time that this fight was going on in Vietnam there were communist threats to the govenrments of Laos and Thailand. The US thought if any of theese governments fell, communism woudl take over all of SE Asia; and the Phillipines would be next. We sent military advisers to help the South. Our activities led to some activities in the Gulf of Tonkin in which some US ships believed they were attacked by North Vietnamese ships. They probably were not. But, this information led to Congress authorizing LBJ to basically escalate the war as he saw fit. He escalated. We bombed the shit out of Vietnam. But, the Vietnamese were an extremely war-like people, they had been fighting for maybe the last 100 years for theor freedom. Our bombing, our attacks in the South, strengthened the resolve of the people. We eventually lost over 50,000 troops. I've heard that millions of Vietnamese were killed.

Did we accomplish anything? Cambodia, who had been an ally under Prince Sihanouk fell to the communists after we destabilized the government by bombing the shit out of Cambodia. The communist regime in Cambodia was exceedingly bloody slaughtering millions of their own people. Vietnam went communist.

Thailand and Laos did not go communist. Was that due to what we did in Vietnam? I don't know. Did we stop the spread of communism by fighting in Vietnam? I don't know. We killed millios of people and caused the deaths of millions of others. We probably could have worked to give the Vietnamese their freedom, way back around WWI and had a staunch anti-communist ally.

My personal opinion is that Vietnam was a huge failure. Even if we stopped communism, I think the Vietnamese people must bear a horrendous hatred for us. I believe there were far better options than the one we pursued. We seem to put this tremendous store in the ability of war to resolve problems. I think we cause ourselves tremendous problems because of this approach.

[Yupster]

28. Laos didn't go communist?

I thought it fell to the Pathet Lao, when they were brought into the government right at the same time Cambodia fell to the Khmer Rouge.

[Blue Wally]

30. Jim.....

I haven't been in the north where we bombed so heavily, but I have been back to Vietnam numerous times since the war. In the south, most folks are quite favorable towards Americans (even the former VC fighters). After 1975, many Russian advisors came in to help the government get established and to exploit the offshore oil. The Russians are universally hated as unfriendly tightwads.

In a sense, we won the battle for the hearts and minds. While the government is still ostensibly communistand while major industries are still government owned, personal ownership of land and retail businesses is now the norm. We trained and left behind in the south a dedicated cadre of capitalist enterprisers who established a massive black market that defeated all attempts by communist government to block all commerce except through government facilities.

After years of rather bleak existence, the government finally legalizedland ownership and personal economic activity at the retail level in the early 1990s. Amazing how prosperity returned and many, many people turned the first floor or the front half of their homes into stores and factories. Walk around Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) sometime and you will be amazed at what unfettered capitalism will produce.

[veracity]

27. Because we got the new Perle (not Pearl) Harbor... (see image)

....that Richard Perle wrote he needed in the PNAC treatise: Rebuilding America's Defenses. The plans were there and they got their 'catastrophic' occurrence. Remember that there is no such thing as a coincidence in the politics of war:



http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/smoking_gun.html

[AntiCoup2K4]

35. Uh, right answer, but wrong war!

Perle and PNAC are to blame for many things, but not for Vietnam. Unless they got a time machine.

[against all enemies]

31. Johnson was afraid that the Republicans would paint him

as soft on communism, so in stead of standing up for what's right he caved and escalated the war. Republans always use war as a sign of Patriotism, sound familiar?

[Blue Wally]

36. Ummm............

When Johnson went to war, the Republicans were at an extremely low ebb. Remember how Goldwater was blown out in 1964? There were also massive Senate and House gains that year. In 1965, when the buildup really started, the Republicans were in total dissarray and without leadership.

[against all enemies]

37. Came out with the tapes of phone calls made by Johnson

during his administration. He didn't want to send more troops, even stated that he couldn't bring himself to send a Sargent that was on his staff. but he was pressured into it due to anti-communist rants from the right, and fear of being painted as weak on communism from within his own party. Again the Democrats give in to pressure from the Right, afraid that they will be defined as being soft, unpatriotic, and weak on defense.

[Blue Wally]

38. Eisenhower did it

In 1954, the options were to go to Vietnam and support the French or to go to Geneva and make some sort of a peace agtreement with the Vietminh. Since the Republicans had made such a big thing over "who lost China?", there was a lot of specualtion that "payback time" had come. Eisenhower called in LBJ (Senate minority leader) and Sam Rayburn (house minority leader) along with the Republican leadership. He had a host of generals brief the options as to how many thousands of men and bilions of dollars US intervention would cost and asked the assembled congressional leadership if they were up to it. LBJ and Rayburn were part of the chorus of "nays" and were unable to make any political hay out of "losing Vietnam" against Eisenhower.

A lot of the Kennedy inner-circle were spooked by the "losing China" thinkg in the early sixties when they led us down the primrose path to Vietnam.

[achtung_circus]

33. I remeber hearing this gem

If we don't fight them in Vietnem, when do we fight them, on the Mississippi?

Just akid at the time but even then I didn't understand how VC would invade the US.

[AntiCoup2K4]

34. To keep George Bush's opium smuggling network running

Where do you think he got the nickname "Poppy" anyway?