In my opinion, one of the best parts of F911

[bigbillhaywood]

Was the fact that, despite the primary focus on Bush, Michael Moore didn't let the Democrats that rolled over for the Administration off the hook. Beginning sequence where Black congresspeople opposing the stolen election could not get one single co-signer from the Senate was great (and really got my blood boiling-- Ted K, Russ F and the other supposed "good guys", where the fuck were you?!). Also, scenes of Daschle and others rolling over on Bush's post 9/11 foreign policy good.

But the best, in my opinion, is when Michael Moore exposes to the general public that most congresspeople (Democrat and Republican) did not read the Patriot Act before voting on it. Scene with John Conyers is gold: "Sit down, my son. We don't read most of the bills." Made Conyers look good at least, as an honest guy (at least as honest as a politician could be).

Anyway, reading so many F911 threads, I just figured I'd throw in my two cents.

[Bettie]

1. That bothered me too

You would think that Russ Feingold or SOMEONE would have the courage to do the right thing.

I did not know that and was disappointed in all of the senate for letting the voters and the congresspersons who stood up to speak for the disenfranchised.

[goddess40]

32. Feingold

Feingold did read the entire Patriot Act and he says that is why he voted against it.

[DenverDem]

2. Congress was threatened physically.

Col. Zack and his anthrax.

[Lars39]

3. The actual quote states...

Sit down, my son. We don't read most of the bills.

Memorable Quotes from Fahrenheit 9/11:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361596/quotes

[bigbillhaywood]

4. Edited accordingly. nt

[Dogmudgeon]

5. I think a lot of it was Moore's animus against Al Gore

Moore made some fairly over-the-top statements about Gore in 2000, and may be trying to justify himself. (Among other things, he blamed Gore for killing a little girl who was killed in a shoot-out.) He also parrotted the Nader cliches, like "Gore = Bush".

I don't hold these against Moore -- he has shown the ability to learn from his mistakes. I followed the whole Senate debacle pretty closely, and Gore seemed to be in mortal pain as he turned the speakers away, as he was required to do by law. This was not easily visibile from the camera angles chosen for the section in F911. I'm sure that compelling Gore to preside over the political debasement of himself and his friends and supporters gave the Senate Republicans a great deal of schadenfreudlich satisfaction.

On the other hand, the next time a Freeper whines that Moore didn't say a word against Democrats, you can shut him down with a description of that scene alone -- especially if the Freeper claims to have seen the movie.

--bkl

[Delarage]

6. The congress scene almost choked me up.

It occurred to me that I was sitting in a movie theater watching (again--I hadn't seen it since it happened) our government being hijacked. The representatives who spoke were courageous but they were doing what I'd expect someone who believes in democracy to do. What the hell was everyone else doing?

I am sure that if the tables were turned, Trent Lott et al. would not have been saying "It's time to heal," etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.

This whole ordeal freaking sucks.

[Misunderestimator]

10. Choked me up too... and gave me a LOT of respect for those who

went up to the podium to object despite not have a senator's signature, calling Gore "Mr. President." Damn.

[WolverineDG]

22. the first time i saw f/911

the audience was at its loudest & most vocal when the one congresswoman said "AND I DON'T CARE THAT IT'S NOT SIGNED BY A SENATOR!"

i've seen the movie twice since & this part of the movie just really makes me mad...i want to stand up & scream "DO SOMETHING!" at those senators who are just so white & smug & LAUGHING at the attempts to contest the outcome of the election. (and i'm white, btw) :nuke:

it enrages me to watch african americans BEGGING to have their votes counted while rich fat white men sit back & laugh. :grr:

dg

[WillyT]

30. That Was Maxine Waters-D CA 35th !!!

And our theater here in Sacramento erupted in applause and shouts when she said that in the film!!!

Imagine what Maxine could do if we could get the House back in Dem hands!!!

Hopefully soon... we won't have to imagine!!!

:kick:

[livetohike]

7. I started crying during the scene in the Senate!

It reminded me of what could have been, if only........

That scene, among others, was very powerful, imo.

I really liked the ending and I won't discuss it so not to ruin it for those DU'ers who have yet to see the film. :-)

[Lefty48197]

8. John Conyers fights for working Americans like no other politician

It's natural that he would be the one to tell the truth to Michael.

[PoiBoy]

9. I wrote my two senators...

..after I saw F911, asking them why they didn't stand up and support the Representatives who were opposing the stolen election. Especially since one of the Reps speaking was our very own, the late Patsy Mink.!

No answer from either one yet, but it hasn't been that long since I mailed the letters...

It's also a question I would like to ask of Sen. Kerry...

:hi:

[Hamlette]

11. That scene, about seating the Flordia electors, RUINED the movie for me

How can none of you remember it? I saw it when it happened, discussed it at length with my peers at the time. Why the HELL do you fault ANY senator if Lieberman himself would not sign it? He was running for hells sake.

Gore told 'em not to. He had to have. Do you REMEMBER what happened at all????? The Supreme Court of the US gave the election to Bush. The court found that the Florida electors were legit. If they had not been allowed to cast their votes, it would have been thrown to the house where Bush would have won.

And what would we have gained? We would have said: the Supreme Court's decisions mean NOTHING if we don't agree with them. And since we would have lost anyway, it would have been a hollow "victory".

Then, when the right says "we don't care what the court says about school prayer, the 10 commandments in court houses, abortion being legal" ("we're gonna shoot doctors anyway") what the hell moral high ground do WE have? We would have to say: "that's right, if you don't agree with a decision of the US Supreme Court you don't have to follow it, just like we didn't follow the decision in Bush v Gore."

I'm a lawyer and I hated Bush v Gore more than anything in my life time. The court made a political decision and cloaked it in bull shit legal arugments. Every honest lawyer will tell you the same thing regardless of how they feel about who should have won the election.

But...what is the remedy? To say "supreme court decisions that are wrong, and that we don't agree with, don't have to be obeyed?" That MIGHT be an appropriate response IF, and ONLY IF, failing to obey the decision gets you someplace. (Actually, the appropriate remedy, and we used it every day in this country, is to change the law. THAT'S what we should be doing in this country. Telling the politicians change the law that got us into that mess in Florida. No, instead, we'll blame the Senators. It's SO much easier. Doesn't require us to think or DO anything.)

What absolutely shocks me to my core is that people don't remember this happeneing. Where WERE you? Did you not follow the news at the time? It was on every news cast.

Moore hated Gore. He was a vocal supporter of Nader. Moore was in a postion in 2000 to actually have DONE something to prevent the train wreck (not support Nader, we only needed 500+ votes). His covering up his own complicity by blaming it on the Senate is shameful. It's why I won't recommend the movie to anyone. It is self serving cover for Moore. ("Well, if only the Senate would have acted, this would not have happened." Which he knows is a big fat lie. He lost all credibility with me on that one.

Let's at LEAST be honest. When the person running for office says "its time to throw in the towel" and you know you are going to lose...its time to throw in the towel. You might blame Gore or Lieberman (I don't) but you can't blame anyone else.

[bigbillhaywood]

12. Long live the Democratic Party! Hail the Chairman!

[bigbillhaywood]

13. Yeah, can't violate the sanctity of the Supreme Court, even if it means

caving in to the disenfranchisement of voters because they were black. I guess the abolitionists should have just shut the fuck up because of the Dred Scott decision. And I suppose Rosa Parks is only a hero because she sat at the front of the bus AFTER the Supreme Court said it was AOK with Brown v. Board of Education--otherwise she would have been violating the sanctity of Plessy v. Ferguson.

[Hamlette]

15. Carry on

The fight appears to be more important to you than the results.


Knock yourself out.

[bigbillhaywood]

16. And you appear to have no fight in you.

Typical moderate. Obstructing real reform under the cover of "pragmatism".

[LoZoccolo]

19. Real reform?

His whole point is that it wouldn't have done anything.

[bigbillhaywood]

23. It would have created public resistance. The whole scandal died down in

the mainstream media pretty quickly, maybe not so if more Dems had resisted. But maybe you are both right-- maybe it wouldn't have changed a damn thing. But it's just one more example among many of Democrats rolling over in the face of the Republicans' fascist agenda. "Moderation" and "pragmatism" on the left is killing this country and allowing the "idealists" on the other side-- the Christian fascists and the corporate free market libertarians-- to take over.

[LoZoccolo]

25. To be sure, I was disappointed when I saw that scene too. Still am.

Especially when they started laughing. Later I realized that Wellstone was in that crowd too, so there was probably more about it than I thought.

[bigbillhaywood]

26. Wellstone started selling out towards the end...

For example, he said Jesse Helms was a "good man" when he retired. I'm sorry, but no one who claims to be a progressive should be calling an extreme racist/fascist like Helms a "good man". Also voted for the Patriot Act. I'm telling you, being in government too long will corrupt the best of them.

[Hamlette]

31. I'm just not interested in pyric victories

Take some of the hysteria on this board (today's hysteria is the "threat" of cancelled elections) and focus it ways that will do some good (take the day off from the boards and go register voters, read a book, write a book or at least a letter to the editor of your paper about an issue of importance in 2004, create something, start a movement to get rid of the electoral college).

Act, don't react.

I believe in civil disobedience but only if it will do some good. Read up on Rosa Parks. She was a plant. Several women had been arrested before her but for one reason or another the movement didn't back them (they bailed them out of jail and quietly paid the fine) because it needed to frame the issue in the most sympathetic way. Each time there was an arrest the case was brought to the civil rights leaders to decide what to do.

What if they had backed the pregnant unwed teenager who did what Rosa did a few weeks earlier? The issue of racism would have been overshadowed by the laments over sexual promiscuity and responsibility.

My guess is you would say they should have backed the wrong person because not doing so sent the wrong message.

I'm not intereted in sending messages.

[LoZoccolo]

14. Nader also rejects the CBCs pleas.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/nader.caucus/

[Lindsey]

17. I also saw this in real time as I was glued to my t.v. during the

entire debacle. However, I'm not going to blame Michael Moore for the fact that Gore isn't living in the white house (imho = he's the president and NOTHING will ever change that in my mind). The people to blame are all of Bush's thugs (himself, Jim Baker, Jeb, Katherine Harris, etc. AND MAINLY THE F'ING JOKE OF A SUPREME COURT WHO MADE ME LOOSE MY FAITH IN THIS COUNTRY AND IN DEMOCRACY). I was sickened as I watched that first scene too.

[bigbillhaywood]

18. Who cares what he thinks about it? He's not in Congress.

[LoZoccolo]

20. He doesn't care about what the CBC wants.

He should care. I'm sure the CBC cares about their constituents.

[bigbillhaywood]

24. I guess I just don't understand the anti-Nader obsession with many on DU

I understand why people are against his candidacy and think he's got a big ego, but I really don't feel like I (or most on DU) need to know about every dirty deed he's done or been accused of (sometimes without basis-- I remember a whole thread trying to twist Nader's statement in to making him out to be anti-choice on abortion). Seems like a waste of time to me. I don't think anyone on DU is voting for him. And I doubt he will be a big factor this election. I think his poll numbers are grossly inflated and I think this year most of his votes will come from the solidly blue states anyways.

[LoZoccolo]

27. To equip other DUers on how to deal with him with people they know.

I'm pretty sure not many people here are voting for him either.

But this issue about his meeting with the CBC is directly about his candidacy in this election and it's effect on the public; it isn't some obscure piece of dirt on him like the Diet-Coke-every-half-hour thing. He claims that there is little difference between the parties, and we could argue all night about how big the difference is, but here are some people that are making an appeal to him who do feel they are served by that difference and he basically just ignores them. Someone else on here said that a Nader protest vote is basically a white middle-class luxury and I'd say that's about right. And I'd add, often a white middle-class college student who's taken care of by their parents luxury.

[bigbillhaywood]

29. I actually know a lot of union members, including myself, who voted for

Nader last election, and even a few (very few) who are voting for Nader this election, so I'd disagree with your stereotype that a Nader protest vote is "white middle-class college student who's taken care of by their parents luxury."

I think its okay to vote for Nader in the solid blue or red states (say MA and TX). I think that's what pisses me off most about Nader. He could easily agree to only seek ballot access in those states, and avoid the swing states-- but he doesn't.

That and he's willing to run without Green or Labor Party endorsement. At least before, you could say a vote for Nader had organizational purpose-- if he got 5% the Greens qualify for future federal matching funds (and it raises public profile of Greens). But his candidacy now serves no such strategic or organizational purpose, which is why I don't support it.

[Zen]

28. Republican at work is voting for Nader - hates Bush.

I do agree that bringing Naders name up does the same as those shits who tried to suppress F-911 - it's a waste of time and may actually give him more support (makes him seem like more than he really is).

Oh, and GO RED SOX!!

[LoZoccolo]

21. Same goes for any left third-party candidate.

Basically. He's just the most popular one.