So, are there any factual errors in F911?

[skjpm]

It's been a couple of weeks with lots of scrutiny. All I have seen are critiques of Moore's analysis of the facts, but I haven't seen a single fact disputed. As far as I can tell, these are the facts:

The Bush family has a long history of financial ties with Saudi royalty, the Bin Ladens.

Most of the 911 terrorists were Saudis.

The Bin Laden family was in the US on 911. They were not given the sort of interrogation one would expect for the family members of a man suspected of killing 3000 Americans. (When they were allowed to go seems a minor point to the fact that they were allowed to go at all.)

After Bush heard about the first plane hitting the towers, he went into a photo op. When he heard about the second, he sat for 7 minutes without doing anything.

We attacked Afghanistan but did not make enough effort to capture Bin Laden, who is likely the brains behind 911.

We chose, on faulty or exagerrated intelligence, to put our full force into a war with Iraq, who had nothing to do with 911, or any terrorism directed towards us.

Many people have been unfairly targeted by the misuse of a largely unread Patriot Act.

Anyway, aren't all of these simply facts? What is the dispute?

[ClassWarrior]

1. The dispute is the fact that Mike asks questions...

...that those facts raise. And heaven forbid we ask questions in a democracy!!

[skjpm]

2. But I keep hearing that Moore's facts are in dispute

But I don't see which facts. I have yet to read a negative review which lists a single mistake. Has anyone else?

[JayS]

5. I think mistakes or lies or whatever is not an accurate way to...

...portray anything in Moore's work. Moore has been very public about not wanting Bush in office and that his film reflects this. He has said he wants people to ask questions and seek answers; by many accounts that I have seen, he has succeeded.

I remember that some clips are out of order time wise but, as they are used to get a message across, that is not really an issue. I think the "watch this drive" clip did not reflect that Bush was dismissing the press that were interrupting his game but that was not the point of that scene either.

So does the film contain Moore's personal bias? Yes. Are there mistakes? Not really.

[Luminous Animal]

19. Mike's War Room

As promised, Mike is fighting back. On his website, he systematically destroys his debunkers.

Check it out here:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/

[Tweed]

3. Someone said it great before me: "If 25% of what Moore said it true...

Bush is messed up." I am paraphrasing from someone else, but I think that sums it up well. Every time I've seen a Republican attack F 9/11 for its claims, they don't actually mention any claims.

One I do know is that the 9/11 commission said that Bin Laden's family was questioned right after 9/11, flew out of the country after the ban on flights was lifted and that nothing was wrong with providing them with transportation.

[Spangle]

6. I would like to see the

reports from those interviews. What were the questions asked.. And I would like to compare those questions to those asked of others. Keeping in mind whos family this is..

And I DO find something wrong with PROVIDING transportation. Just like I find it wrong that our SS agents gaurd the saudi embasy. As a TAX PAYER I want to know who foots the BILL.

If they want "extra" services, they dang better PAY for it.

If they wanted to keep them "safe" because of who they were, they would have been fine locked up safe and sound. AND avalible for more questioning.

[DBoon]

4. Yes

The Icelandic military does not dress up in Viking-style regalia. Moore's film clip of such was not clearly labeled as non-factual, leading the viewer to believe that the present-day Icelandic navy consists of long-boats, and is occupied with looting and pillaging Europe while wearing funny-looking helmets with horns sticking out of the sides.

[U4ikLefty]

7. LOL...good one!!!

nt

[anarchy1999]

8. For a closer critique

by one of us, the esteemed Professor Robert Jensen, author of Writing Dissent, from the University of Texas:

EXCERPT
"The sad truth is that "Fahrenheit 9/11" is a bad movie, but not for the reasons it is being attacked in the dominant culture.
It's at times a racist movie. And the analysis that underlies the film's main political points is either dangerously incomplete or virtually incoherent."

http://www.counterpunch.org/jensen07052004.html

***HIGHLY RECOMMENDED***

[Spangle]

9. Hmmm

I disagree on the racist comment. I think Moore was right to show a group of mainly whites.

Remember the "It can't happen to me" situation. White folk got it bad.

Blacks know it can happen to them. The news is full of middle eastern persons being yanked up. And people are oking it because of "profiling" using skin tone.

The white group, now that hits all those "white christian" groups who think it can not happen to them. It's time they truely understand. Our rights and freedoms are being willing given away by those who think only "others" will be effected.

Yes, there are tons of storys about Americans with middle eastern heritage being treated wrong after 9/11 that he could have used. But the same logic people use to GIVE AWAY SOME OF OUR FREEDOMS would have excused how he was treated. Profiling would have been "ok." It isn't. But how does one make the case and make it FAST? WHO are the ones giving Bush the power? check the polls.... Old white men favor Bush the most.

[AP]

13. I agree with the author that a critique of the entire capitalist system

would have gotten to the heart of the matter. But let me tell you what. Doing that in ia two hour film? 5,000 people are going to see that.

Moore is making the argument that people will listen to. He's the pathway red pill to the truth. He's the red weed that will get people to the red crack.

He's doing exactly the right thing.

[Hippo_Tron]

16. I disagree on the premise as "the norm" being empire building

Or at least in the post cold-war world. Bill Clinton didn't launch any wars, with the exception of Kosovo which in doing so saved thousands of lives. John Kerry wants to find renewable energy so that our foreign policy doesn't revolve around oil in the middle east. And although the military has been used for imperialistic purposes, it still DOES defend our country and many others, believe it or not. Their very existance makes it so that no other nation would even dream of a direct invasion on our soil or that of our allies. And I also find it very hard to believe that every president since Harry Truman has entered the white house with the intention of bullying around other countries. Imperialism may be the norm for the neocon shitbags who run the Republican party and right now, the government, but it's not the norm for America.

[skjpm]

17. I am not as left-wing as this guy

I think he does a brilliant analysis, and I agree that F911 is conservative. I like it because I'm conservative. I think that Moore actually espouses many fundamental conservative American values, esp. in his support of the military. That's why it appeals to Republicans as well.

[HEyHEY]

10. He said he's thinking of offering a $10,000 reward if you can find a lie

in that film

[AP]

11. Nina Tottenberg said today on PBS that it's preposterous that Bush

took us to war just to make his oil friends rich, as Moore claims.

I agree. I dont' think it was the only reason. I think he also did it because he thought it would make it harder for the democrats to beat him this fall because it would lure them into running a '68/'72-style anti-war campaign.

She never did explain what was so preposterous.

[ParanoidPat]

12. Michael Moore is FAT! And ummm, ummmm uhhh......

.....Did I mention he's FAT? :evilfrown:

Oh! Wait, he didn't show the other side in his film so it's not fair! :cry:

[Lestatdelc]

14. I have not run across any

The facts in the movie were vetted by researchers at the New Yorker by Moore before the movie went out.

It's bulletproof (pun noted).

[prolesunited]

15. The Onion has the answer

http://www.theonion.com/infograph/index.php?issue=4027

[MrBenchley]

18. LOL!!

"There's no way John Ashcroft would be stupid enough to stand behind a podium with all the cameras on him and sing a song about an eagle."

[DougieZero]

20. F911 Facts

Boom.... http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/