Fahrenheit 9/11

[newdealer]

I hate to say this. I teach at a large urban college, and very few students want to see it, and even fewer knew about it. I have talked to very progressive friends who honestly believed, almost religiously, that once the public saw this movie, the Democrats would have the election sewn up.

I have seen the film, and I have to admit, of all of Moore's films, I thought this was the weakest. Why? Well for one thing, the attitude of the film is inappropriately light hearted, with some amusing barbs at th expense of the President. But for my friends and all the others who believed this would be equal to John Dean's testimony in the Watergate investigation, they are going to be sadly disappointed.

And perhaps the real damage of the film is that while so many were convinced that it's release would create a "shock and awe" among the people, they were ignoring the despicable acts going on the Senate and the Congress. The political game this summer is "dodge the bullet."

I watched as an irate Jay Rockefeller, co chair of the intelligence committee, impatiently, seething insisted that this investigation was not nearly over. He was pleading with the American Public to stop the Republicans delay the the second part of the report-- what did the Administration do with this "bad intelligence" until after the November elections.

For me the Move On video about the fraud perpetrated on the American people about Iraq was enough. I've spent as much time as I can writing to both sides of the Senate and House. But more importantly, I have the opportunity to teach college freshmen. And without ramming it down their throats, I try to subtly get them to question the basic assumptions of our society. sometimes I'll have a number of cynical students. The problem is they also don't see the purpose of voting.

I don't think one movie Is going to inspire such a watershed, change the minds of conservatives, and everyone will run out and kick Bush from office. What we really need is for us to rely less on a film, and more on ourselves,

[still_one]

1. No film is going to change an election

If your students read and understand the issues they will vote.

If they are of the belief that they don't see the purpose of voting, they will, when it is too late, and the issues that affect them will be decided by others.

When they find that their social security, pension plans, medicare, healthcare, the right to choose, are not what they thought it would be what will they do then?

More importantly, if they are drafted, what will they do?

[newdealer]

4. The repblicans, fron 1980

Have won votes on cultural issues. The sad thing is the people who voted for him, GHWB, and GWB based on cultural isues have been the ones who have been hurt economically. Why Can't Kerry Hammer that hom?

[leftofthedial]

18. i agre with saracat that most people will get more out of a movie

than a reasoned debate on the issues.

Sad, but true in today's America.

Even if Kerry made that argument and hammered it, the media doesn't cover his messages. They cover his hairstyle, or his wife's homes, or his Viet Nam medals . . . remember, they work for the GOP.

Kerry will have very little opportunity to address any issue of substance and have ordinary Americans hear about it at all.

[saracat]

2. umm, you are talking

about the reaction of an educated populace. The average American will get more out of a movie.Most don't read.The movie has to be simple and somewhat humorous for them to "get" it.And they have been "getting" it. I live in an urban area as well and I have been surprised at how many Republicans are "getting" it through the movie. I could talk up a blue streak and they wouldn't budge.And I must say, one would have to be extremely hardhearted and cynical not to be moved by the Mother's grief. That was cinematic genius and one of the most wrenching moments I have ever scene on film was her trip to the WH.

[newdealer]

5. you are right.

don't get me wrong. If this gets middle Americans out to see what I've been following for the last three years, and it is effective, then I think that's great. My original statement was from hearing so many poeple who new this was happening, and instead of trying to do anything about it, just waited for the Film to open, again, expecting a ground swell of Anti-Bush sentiment. I just thought that Bowling for Columbine and /Roger and Me came from nowhere, without hype and were extremely effective.

[newdealer]

24. educated populace

I wouldn't call my students that. I teach at a large inner city university. where most students will end up as bank tellers.

[trof]

27. Did it make you cry?

Just wondered.

[Mike Niendorff]

31. I think it also depends on who you assume the "audience" to be

I think Moore's whole point in the film was to focus on the PR that Bush & Co. use to keep the RW in line -- the PR they use to differentiate "us" from "them", as it were -- and mercilessly shred it using film clips that *prove* it to be false.

Bush presents himself as being a down-to-earth Average-Joe kind of guy. So Moore shows everyone what's really going on behind the scenes. He shows Bush and his people with their hairstylists and make-up artists getting poodled-up for their TV appearances. He shows video of Bush practicing his "tough guy" facial expressions before main video feed of his speech starts. He shows video of Bush joking around with his "base" -- "the haves and the have-mores". He shows the details of the *massive* Bush family wealth, who they owe favors to because of it, and how those favors impact Junior's handling of the September 11th investigation. Then he shows who pays the price for it all. Average kids. Recruited from a hurting Main Street. Drawn in by slick recruiters and dishonest sales tactics. Learning too late that the RW's PR games are only just that -- PR, spin, lies.

On that level, I think Moore really hit a home run. As for most of us go, we already knew these things. We knew that the Bushies are a bunch of lying con artists propped up by aggressive propaganda games. No secret there, AFAIC. But the thing is, there are a lot of Republicans who, I think, really *don't* realize how badly they're being played. They have been trained to think that "the Hollywood left" does this, sure, but the GOP? Never! Well, Moore just put the lie to that one, bigtime. And he used video of their own words and actions to do it, which makes it damn-near unimpeachable.

So I guess my point is that Moore really isn't preaching to the choir on this one -- regardless of how the RW tries to spin it that way -- and that's why this film is both effective and disappointing. He's hitting at Bush's methods for corralling his "base", and hitting hard.
But for those of us for whom that "corralling" never worked, there's far less of an impact -- and thus a sense that a great opportunity has been wasted.

Anyway, this is my take on the film. As with all things, YMMV :)


MDN

[newdealer]

3. clarify my point

In my class, which is required of all freshman, I am always confronted with statements: My vote doesn't count it's all fixed." I ask the student if he feels that is a political/social position. They generally say yes-- "there is nothing I can do."

Then I let them on to a political secret that has been around for quite some time: Politicians want a cynical electorate who feel that voting is pointless. I'll ask a student why he doesn't vote, and she or he'll say because I'm not part of this corrupt system. I try and explain that they-- the students- may think that they're making a statement by not voting, all that does is make it easier for the Conservatives to rally their base and have no fear from a populace threat. At this point I let them take a break,

[fujiyama]

6. While I do agree

that no one should delude themselves into believing a movie can change the course of an election, I strongly disagree about this being Moore's weakest film. I actually believe it was his strongest.

Mainly because most of what he shows HAPPENED - footage of Bush spouting nonsense for example. Many of the articles he mentions are shown. Video footage is given, and there is so many connections between the Bush family, the Saudi Royals, and the bin Ladens, that for most it will be difficult to just dismiss it as a coincidence.

I also found the film far from being lighthearted. It was aiming to show the sheer ridiculousness of the the times, of the lies, and propaganda that comes forth from the administration and the mainstream media.

I have a cousin that saw this. Him and his wife aren't very political (in fact I'm not sure she could identify any members of the administration - atleast before seeing the film), and his first reaction was, "there's so much stuff in there we never saw covered on the news". That's what the movie's about - making people ask some questions.

[bowens43]

7. It's a movie, not testimony in the Watergate investigation.

Did you think that it would be? It certainly wasn't billed as being anything close to that. No one has suggested that it would by itself defeat bush. Politically, IMO ,there is no downside to this movie. If anything it causes people to pay MORE attention to what is going on, not less. People that I know who have seen the movie but didn't have the passion for politics that I do are now showing great interest. One person I am close to who had previously shown little interest in politics is now a volunteer in a Democratic organization here in NC. The movie made her angry and it inspired her. This movie was not so much about changing minds as it was about energizing the base. The minds of the conservative base will not be changed.

Again, it's not about changing the minds of conservatives. It's about inspiring righteous anger and motivation in those who see and recognize the evil that resides in the oval office.

[quaker bill]

8. I think the movie will have an impact

Having paid close attention over the last 4 years, I got very little new information from the film. However, because of this, I paid more attention to how well the film got the message across and the impact it was having on the audience.

I think the film was very effective because it varied from issues of great gravity to lightheartedness at a reasonable pace. It put out the basic information on a number of subjects without dwelling on the details. It had solid emotional impact on a number of dimensions.

Like the way the film dealt with the atttacks of 9/11. The predictable footage of the planes slamming in to the buildings was absent. Moore chose instead to focus on the immediate emotional impact on the people who survived. Similarly the footage of the carnage in Iraq was necessary, but was included just enough to make the message clear.

Had the film focused on grave issues and details for 2 hours, it would have been depressing and unlikely to do well at the box office. While I have no problem with a serious and sober approach to these issues personally, I think part of the point is to get people to come out an see it.

How will the film have an impact? At the theater where I saw the film, volunteers were there registering people to vote and they were quite busy. Alot of the folks who were registering were young.

In 2000 in Florida, the polls had Bush well in the lead on election day. The poll results were figured on "likely voter" models. Needless to say, likely voter models do not account for new registrants. In response to the clearly racist murder in Texas, where the black man was dragged to death, NAACP organized a voter registration drive in black communities throughout Florida. The composition of the electorate was changed. Gore, instead of losing by the predicted 5 percent, most likely won Fla., had the votes been counted.

This film also has the potential to change the composition of the electorate. A one or two percent change in who shows up at the polls is all that is needed to make a very large difference in the outcome.

[quaker bill]

9. I think the movie will have an impact

Having paid close attention over the last 4 years, I got very little new information from the film. However, because of this, I paid more attention to how well the film got the message across and the impact it was having on the audience.

I think the film was very effective because it varied from issues of great gravity to lightheartedness at a reasonable pace. It put out the basic information on a number of subjects without dwelling on the details. It had solid emotional impact on a number of dimensions.

Like the way the film dealt with the atttacks of 9/11. The predictable footage of the planes slamming in to the buildings was absent. Moore chose instead to focus on the immediate emotional impact on the people who survived. Similarly the footage of the carnage in Iraq was necessary, but was included just enough to make the message clear.

Had the film focused on grave issues and details for 2 hours, it would have been depressing and unlikely to do well at the box office. While I have no problem with a serious and sober approach to these issues personally, I think part of the point is to get people to come out an see it.

How will the film have an impact? At the theater where I saw the film, volunteers were there registering people to vote and they were quite busy. Alot of the folks who were registering were young.

In 2000 in Florida, the polls had Bush well in the lead on election day. The poll results were figured on "likely voter" models. Needless to say, likely voter models do not account for new registrants. In response to the clearly racist murder in Texas, where the black man was dragged to death, NAACP organized a voter registration drive in black communities throughout Florida. The composition of the electorate was changed. Gore, instead of losing by the predicted 5 percent, most likely won Fla., had the votes been counted.

This film also has the potential to change the composition of the electorate. A one or two percent change in who shows up at the polls is all that is needed to make a very large difference in the outcome.

[DrBB]

10. "inappropriately light hearted"

Much as I am pleased that the movie is out there and is forcing certain things to be discussed in venues outside the blogosphere (esp. the famous 7 minutes), I agree with you about the tone of the movie.

It was strange. On the one hand, you had moments of real cinematic power--the sound of the planes crashing in over nothing but a blank black screen; the choice not to show a single picture of the burning buildings themselves, just the shocked faces looking up in horror, the comments ("Oh god they're jumping") and the millions of pieces of paper falling, all juxtaposed against the following scene of Bush reading his little goat book. A very powerful opening that, to me, set expectations that didn't sit at all well with Moore's wise-cracking voice-overs. Like he just couldn't let go of his established persona, even though it jarred against the gravity of the things he was depicting.

Not great filmmaking, from a standpoint of craft, but still a contribution. I think you're short-changing it a bit in that, while there are certainly limits to its reach, it does provide major-media exposure for a lot of the things we've been trying to raise awareness about. But I agree it's not going to do all our work for us.

[oasis]

11. Chimpy's great strength has been his crediblity. The erosion caused by

F9/11 will go on apace until election day.

[OpSomBlood]

12. The DVD release just before the election will have a greater impact.

There are a lot of people who want to see this film but refuse to go to the theater for a documentary.

Hell, I'm a movie freak and I refuse to go to the theater most of the time.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

13. Nice opinion.........next!

*yawn*

[laruemtt]

14. just wanted to report

here in huntington, wv, the theater was packed with Marshall students - packed! and they were very vocal in their disgust with *. yay Marshall ! go herd! (yes, i am a proud alumna!)

[TruthIsAll]

15. A quick example to show how F9/11 could change the election..

Assume the electorate is split 50/50.

Also assume that as a result of having seen F9/11, for every 100 persons:

ONE Repub switches to Kerry.
ONE Repub stays home and does NOT vote.
ONE person, who never votes, decides to vote for Kerry.

Lets see how this plays out in actual numbers.

Assume for simplicity, that before F9/11, the electorate was evenly divided, 50/50. Lets ignore independents by assuming that they split their vote between Dems and Repubs.

Subtract the TWO Repubs, the one who switched and the other who stays home. There are now 48 Repubs.
Add the TWO Dems, the one Repub who switched and the new voter. We now have 52 Dems.

So there you are. The Dems pickup a net 4 votes. From 50/50 we have gone to 52/48. That's a SOLID, though not spectacular win. In fact, that takes us halfway to a landslide of 54%/46%.

Of course, we have not considered many other factors which would add votes to the Dems. No need to go into them here.

[tinanator]

16. college kids are morons

I went to a candidates forum at the local state college to help at the Kucinich table. You could nearly count on one hand the number of students who came through and browsed. Their level of disengagement was stunning. Dont matter. You look at the older voters, the older they are the harder they detest Bush. no worries.

[newdealer]

17. My original point

Oh, and thanks ChavezSpeakstheTruth for the insightful and well articulated contribution to the debate. I mentioned a number of demographic groups here, students, middle American, republicans. But the main point of my argument, and point out some of the short comings of the movie, is that I am surrounded by intellectuals, artist, fervent Bush-haters academics, who, for the last two months have been convinced that F9/11 was going to create such an uproar in this country that they themselves neglected their responsibilities as intellectuals, artists, active citizens.

I would tell someone about an article in the New York Times that should have provoked dissuasion of what might be really going on, and how do we integrate it in our courses. Most of what I got was smug cynicism toward the students, or, exactly what i have been trying to say: they would say. well wait until "Fahrenheit 9/11" comes out and it will be so shocking and revelatory, that no one would ever possibly vote for Bush.

I agree with many of your points about the intended result of th film. and its terrific editing. For instance, watching over and over again Paul Wolfiwitz sucking on his comb to straighten his hair is an apolitical statement and probably was intended to be -- just gross out fun.

I guess I have been frustrated by the "intellectual l's responce and neglect because they really believed that this film would be the political bombshell to end the Bush reign.

[lovuian]

19. A picture is worth a thousand words!!!

Vietnam War crumbled when video came of Protestors being shot and Killed.....Body Bags coming home
Gripping photos of soldiers in War

the Iraq War is another Vietnam


Don't underestimate the Power of Film and Comedy

Saturday Night Live comedian Dana Carvey skits on Poppy Bush showed the American Public what a wierdo he was

Michael Moore's Movie shows Baby Bush's Stupidity

Seeing a Mother crying her eyes out and reading the letter of her dead son .....Who haunts the screen with his words of anger at Bush


For those who see it ...to not be moved ...you have to be quite heartless or maybe souless

Its I guess why the Movie has such an Impact on the minds and hopefully awakens people

No I disagree a Movie can be quite effective at awakening people who think they know but really didn't

And it is by far the Best Michael Moore Movie has made

[Generator]

20. Hey Welcome to DU!

This is for the thread starter:

I was moved more than I thought possible by F/911. There was a good discussion by Selwynn (sp? a duer) I believe last week that was dead on for my feelings.

If I had one word for it, it would be heartbreaking.

The light hearted bits were to keep them in their seats and from slitting their wrists.

I initially supported the Iraq War, and was not M Moore's biggest fan. It actually made me ashamed that I ever supported it at all, and mostly because war is not ever ever to be taken on lightly without the gravest of reasons. My fear and grief were used against me to believe the lies (mostly Colin Powell) who told me Iraq was a threat.

Everyone has their opinion, but if it changes one mind, (and I'm sure it's changing a few) it's the best thing Michael Moore has ever done.

[newdealer]

21. thank you, and one more thing

I just wanted to thank everyone who participate in this forum. It has brought out some refreshing and various voices and view point. And for that I'm glad. This administration has acted so blatantly dishonest and cynical; so confident that the country belongs to them, that nothing they do surprises me. And for that reason it is hard to know where the lies stop and the truth ends. I really believe that they will stop at nothing to maintain their power. My opinion of the film was more of an impatient threat that is outright tyranny. Not only that, but a form of tyranny that has no equivalent in the history of this country.

One more thing:

As a student of history, one question has always stuck in my head:
What would I have done, if I had been German, when Hitler came to power.

Perhaps the situation is slightly different here and now, but it is getting awful damn close.

Thank you all. I wrote an essay about John Kerry, and I'd like to get you feeback. You'll find it at Mon Jul-12-04 05:29 AM.

Thanks again

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. Okay...we'll call you when we're ready for another post. Thanks.

[newdealer]

23. thanks again

That's the spirit. Walk lock step and eject difficult issues to resolve.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

26. A wee bit harsh.

Not that I disagree with your points, but you sure ripped him a new one!

[newdealer]

29. my mistake.

I didn't think it was appropriate to use the public space of the forum to address what I still think was a personal, juvenile and unnecessary, not to mention insulting comment; and now I'm thinking, missing all the points of comments that were made. Not to mention the notion that differences in opinions do not have to be resolved through inflammatory polemics, but as your post reveals, you really are not as bad as I described-- you really are quite worse. And it's evident that you didn't take the time to read the entire thread, or you just don't think there is any room for constructive or analytical criticism. And I am so glad that we have you to weed out the weaker arguments from the stronger ones.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. Hey, pal...you sent a personal email that I thought was out of bounds....

...and filled with "inflammatory polemics". I called you on it and now you want to cry about it.

If you don't like my response, too bad. Don't send me any more emails, and I'll stop posting them on the board.

How does that sound...does that sound fair?

[newdealer]

55. I'll say it again

I sent you a private email because I didn't want this message board to deteriorate into a series of name-calling personal attacks. I thought your original comment was just a passing, irrelevant, smug, comment that added nothing to the discussion. I'm not crying about anything. If I were, it would be facing the choice of living with either Bush-supporting Republicans, or obnoxious jerks like yourself.

[OnTheUpandDown]

47. Posting private email is never a good idea

Much better to deal with email one on one.

[newdealer]

51. Private email

so you think I did the right thing by not getting into a stupid argument on the message board? I'm just asking. I figured, and was proven right, that if I addressed him on the board it would just become a useless series of personal attacks. That's not what I want from here.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. No, thanks....that's why this is a message board, right?

[Lisa]

28. I think Moore was trying to use comic relief ...

I've seen the film numerous times, and colleages and students (I teach at a college too) have been coming up to me with comments about it. Nobody so far has said Moore was too flippant -- if anything, people have been grateful that it wasn't 120+ minutes of relentless despair. One woman commented that now she's seen it, she feels she can recommend it to a friend who's battling cancer, who had been wondering if the movie would be too intense and might send her into a funk. Certainly the last section, which focuses on the troops and the grief of their families, is much more serious than the "Bush Vacation" footage early on.

Newdealer, if your class is anything to do with economics, history, or poli sci, have you considered "The Corporation"? It might be easier to spin off classroom lessons from that, since it actually covers more topics than F 9/11 (e.g. those "basic assumptions of our society" you mentioned). I do a unit on "youth marketing" when I teach cultural geography, and even the kids who claim not to like schoolwork or politics but are into hip-hop or other aspects of pop culture have been interested (and indignant) to learn about who's trying to manipulate them to buy certain stuff. During one lecture, a student asked "What's so bad if corporations offer to sponsor buildings on campus?", and I couldn't get a word in edgewise for 15 minutes or so, as other people began offering opinions. (One surfer-dude, who always appeared to be asleep at the back of the room, showed that he'd been paying attention after all re: corporate control of the media.)

[newdealer]

30. What I teach

I teach a required course called Intellectual Heritage. It's a two semester course. The premise of the course is to introduce students to the major thinkers of Western Thought. We read Oedipus, The Republic, Pericles Funeral address. Then we go on to discuss The Old Testament. The New Testament, The Quran, and the Bagavahd Gita. Then we end the semester with a play by Shakespeare--I use Othello, The Prince by Machiavelli, and finally, the Observations and Writings of Galileo. That's just the first semester.

My approach to the course is to try and get the students to think critically about the ideas that have formed Western Civilization. If someone finds a part of the Old Testament that doesn't make sense, it usually doesn't. But there is always a reason. For instance, does the near sacrifice of Issac by Abraham at the bequest of god suggest that the way to ho obedience to God is through violence? And doesn't this motif of the sacrificed son appear again.

There is a lot of room for contemporary issues. Pericles criticizes people of Athens who add nothing to the community are "not only a disgrace, but useless!" So i begin a discussion of what our society expect us to be. What role do we play in society? Citizens? Consumers? Has anyone seen a billboard reinforcing our duties as Citizens or Consumers?

So I don't ram this "GREAT KNOWLEDGE" of Western Civilization. I try and get then to confront it and analyze its impact.

So I have a good idea of what the average college student's attitudes are toward challenging the norm, if they are going college just to get a job.

But according to Press_Lies_Daily my insights are sophamoric and unworthy of discussion, so don't send you son or daughter to Temple University.

[Lisa]

34. neat ...

I was in a liberal arts programme (the kind that admin tried to stamp out during the cost-conscious 1980s!) which sampled all those authors except the Quran and Bagavahd Gita as an "Introduction to Western Thought". (One of my classmates, who had been a child actor/model and a budding little capitalist, seems to have been influenced by that course and the one taught on the Developing World -- he's become quite an activist and now works in Vancouver. Helped out on "The Corporation" too, strangely enough -- somewhere, Professors Greenspan and Jenkins are probably high-fiving each other, because he had firmly announced at the beginning of the class that he was there just for the piece of paper.)

You might be having a longer-term impact than you realize.

Our instructors felt that the worshipping/ramming of "Great Knowledge" wasn't the best way to get the ideas across, and that if those concepts had any staying power, they'd be popping up again and again -- not just once in history -- and should be evident all around us. I remember that one of the exercises we did was to compare excerpts from Locke, Hobbes, Mill, and Rousseau to US policy at the time (the Reagan era). I'm one of those people who saves most of my course texts, and unfortunately, looking at my copies of "Antigone", "1984", and "A Bend in the River", it looks like everything old is new again.

[newdealer]

50. Stamping out

Temple has been trying for years to get rid of this course. It's not interested in opening minds. It opened mine when I was a history major and later a graduate student. And I have just been disgusted by the "Ivory Tower" student-depricating attitude among the tenured faculty.
That's what got me in trouble with this freaking message thread. I was so sick of hearing everyone talk anout "The Situation" but they did nothing. I saw waiting for a shocking controversial movie to move the masses as a symptomatic of the lack of social responcibility-- even among Liberals. The students were idiots to them, so why try. Yes the students lack a civic-minded attitude-- like most adults. But college is the time to try amd change that. A lot of professors couldn't give a rat's ass about what the students were learning. But don't question their commitment to the defeat of the Bush Administration.

The debate we are having on this thread to me is encouraging (exept for a few smug contributors) It seems stange that being critical of one Michael Moore's movies is being treated like a crime. Poeple are showing how skiddish and vulerable and how much of their own expectations were riding on this film when they condem a dissenter like an angry mob. Geez, I just made a few comments about a movie-- I didn't hit your child.

[HEyHEY]

32. What did you think was light-hearted?

I thought there was some sarcasm there, but no jokes at the wrong time.

[newdealer]

37. you're right

Maybe "lighthearted is the wrong word, but the scenes of Wolfawitz licking his comb as he groomed himself was amusing, and I guess it keeps the audiences attention, but I didn't see scenes like that in his other two films. Roger and Me had the game show host telling antisemetic jokes, but he was just a guy from Flint who got famous. Wolfawitz has so much power, some would say evil, in him. And just showing a gross-out scene like that was like showing Hitler picking his nose.

[HEyHEY]

39. Was even more disgusting was the guy touching his hair after

[KittyWampus]

41. Indeed, Comic Relief Is Called "Relief" For A Reason

it's as old as dirt... or at least the Ancient Greek Playwrights.

[Dr Fate]

33. It is doing more than if it had not been released.

I dont see how we could deny this, or ask for more.

[newdealer]

38. Yep

Can't argue with you there. Never have.

[KoKo]

35. I don't think we thought this movie would be equivalent to John Dean's

testimony in Watergate. Michael More isn't testifying in front of a Senate Hearing and wasn't "Counsel to the President."

But, what this moview does is "connect dots" in a way that watchers of "mass media" can understand. He "brings the ramifications of the Iraq Invasion and Occupation home to the Americans who only know what CNN/MSNBC/FOX and networks have told them, and a few are beginning to wonder but there's no way for them to pose the question and get an answer that isn't already programmed.

So, for them, unlked the folks here on DU who knew all this information and those of us who protested to keep us out of Iraq, this might be a starting point to "ask questions."

I think Moore's documentaries go beyond the TV Pap and reach into "middle America" and poses questions to make them start to seek answers if they care. And many Americans DO CARE...they are just too busy working and trying to deal with their lives to get into reading non-mainstream news magazines and foreign press to try to sort out the reality of what our government is doing.

So, if your college students aren't interested I can understand, it hasn't hit them yet, economically or through a military draft. Their life isn't changed much with Bush in power I guess and they aren't looking for answers to questions they don't know exist.

It's that way for many Americans. But for those who DO wonder...and haven't had their curiosity rooted out from overwork and mindless media infotainment, then I think Moore's Documenatary will be refreshing. :shrug:

It's about waking people up not trying to convince them that Bush is a Liar and they have to run out and vote Kerry. imho.

[newdealer]

42. "Let me make something perfectly clear"

If you read what I posted, I wasn't accusing EVERBODY of waiting around for this film to hit like a broadside shot. What I have been trying to say is I have been frustrated with the attitudes of people in positions to educate such as my fellow professors, some of my more older liberal frinds, and other people I talked to who were convinced that this film would bring down the Bush Administration. They really believed this, and sat on their hands and did nothing with their anger and energy. It was "You just wait and see!" And I think the content of the movie was overshadowed by the pre-released hype, so people were expecting things would take care of themselves. That was the screwed-up environment I have been living with for the past few months.

I have been working for the Kerry campaign, delivering flyers, organizing democtratic rallies in the middle of Pennsylvania. If it's the same or worse in Indiana, or Iowa, or any small rural community, we need to do a lot of work, every day, around the clock. I suppose when I got home and saw the film, I just kept thinking about those farming communities in Bradford County, and realized where this election is going to be lost or won.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

36. Finally saw the movie last night

First of all most college students don't vote. This is not the 1960's when there was a draft. If a student couldn't keep his grades up back then he could end up going to Vietnam. There was more a personal interest for college students to oppose the war.

Michael Moore makes a very good case about the reality of who it is who serves in our armed forces, those who have no other options. Toward the end of the movie he makes what I think was a very profound point (excuse me if I don't get his words exactly)."Those that are first to volunteer for the armed forces are those from the poorest neighborhoods and those who attend the worst schools. They are proud to serve their country. They only ask that if they are to be sent into harm's way that it is not for frivolous reasons."

Nearly thirty years ago I was one of those people. It is for that reason I have to disagree with your statement "of all of Moore's films, I thought this was the weakest". I think Fahrenheit 9/11 is his best work ever.

[Lisa]

40. Moore has numerous fans in that age group ...

After having a look at the large crowd that showed up for one of his appearances -- and seeing the people who've been going into the theatres (a friend of mine is active in "Democrats Abroad" and they've been maintaining voter registration desks in the lobby at one place) -- there are a lot of high-school and college-aged young people showing up. The demographics are more balanced than for the "Spiderman" movie, anyway.

And many of the under-20 crowd don't look like the stereotypical neo-hippy/anarchist leftst radicals. I saw clean-cut types, as well as guys dressed as jocks, and others I wouldn't have expected to see plunking down money for a documentary on Saturday night. I used to post on MM's forum, and there were plenty of avid fans who avoided the "intelligentsia" label and seemed to like Moore because of the class thing (some of them leaned conservative/libertarian but had grown up poor and didn't like being manipulated by old rich guys). There was also a contingent who liked Moore because he did wild, mischievous stuff on TV -- to them, the politics wasn't as important as the fact that he embarrassed authority figures.

I eavesdropped on one group of teens as they left the theatre. One of them, who appeared to be the leader, was loudly critiquing Moore as a propagandist, and one of the others was agreeing halfheartedly with him. But the other kids were looking thoughtful, and when one girl reminded him, "I heard you laughing during the part with the ice cream truck", and the critic said, "Yeah, that WAS pretty funny."

[newdealer]

43. "First of all most college students don't vote."

Exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to change!

[Oddman]

44. It won't change a thing and it wasn't hard hitting enough at all . . .

But it may get a few more Democrats to the polls and that, in itself, is worthwhile.

I liked the movie - but I wished for more.

[OnTheUpandDown]

45. It takes more than a movie to motivate people

I have two young boys that want nothing more than a place to ride their dirtbikes. When the trails they used to ride on were closed by an environmental group they didn't understand why it was done. Now that they know the group supports Kerry they say they will never vote for him or anyone like him. In four years they will have their chance to vote their way.

People vote based on what affects them.

[Geo55]

46. Snip from an email

written by by my daughter & sent to everone she could think of after we saw the film together.
She is 24 and was very apolitical.

"See it for yourself don't take other people's word for it. It is obvious that I loved this movie, and I am thankful that a person as talented and couragous as Michael Moore is around to keep us abreast of information that we would otherwise be sheltered from. Again, I have my beliefs and you all will have yours, but if this movie has the power to make people start talking, then it has done it's job."
<snip>

[osaMABUSh]

48. I think college students are more

knowledgeable than most on what's going on. That's way the young vote is going Kerry's way a good portion of them despise Bush.

[osaMABUSh]

49. Do something

I saw F 9/11 for the second time tonight.

The second viewing - Tuesday night, maybe 40 people there, subdued, some chuckles, and a bit of applause at end. 1st viewing - opening night, full house, lots of reactions, everyone applauded at the end.

Personally, the second viewing was to review what I saw the first time but Moore packed so much in this movie that I wasn't always sure what was up next even the 2nd time around. He did put together a nice package. And the scenes with the Flint Mother of dead soldier still choked me up.

First time I went with three other yellow dog Dems - my son, my sister, and brother-in-law. It was definitely preaching to the choir - we ate it all up and were thrilled to see it on the silver screen. I took my wife this time. She is from the South, a closet Dem, not outspoken, usually disinterested in national or international affairs, not at all active in politics. Well, just after the movie she didn't say a word - and she is the talker in the family. So I kept quiet too - didn't want to sway her opinion one way or the other but then she let loose. She was mad as Hell and disgusted with Bush for being such an imbecile and we (the US) letting him get elected. She was mad at her repuke friends (we live in suburbia) because they are so ignorant to what's going on. She was mad at the media for being such repuke shills. She was mad at America.

At the end of the movie after the credits roll Moore puts up a little promo:

DO SOMETHING! www.michaelmoore.com

I think my wife is going to do something.

[nomatrix]

54. My guess is current events is not a topic

Ask your students who is being sent to Iraq and what are they doing there?

Where would they get this information?

Are they sending other branches of the service (navy, AF) to do the work the Army is doing, because the civilians refuse to drive trucks because of the danger?

Will there be another draft or similar forced service with no deferment (college or religion) mandatory male & female?

It is the lack of media showing the ugliness of war, not Michael Moore's movie. These kids were never exposed to the daily viewing of the dead and wounded, or the fear of being the victim. It is a must see to feel that mother (Lila) pain of losing her son.

Of the conservatives who I know saw the movie, asked "Who is Carlyle?"

The funniest laugh of loud point made was "If this was Clinton....."
Ask them why that is?

Don't they know this is their country, their government, their responsibility, and will get out of exactly what they put into it.

You as a teacher have an opportunity to draw into your fold that spark of curiosity. See if the patriot act is at work by the student reading library books like Sorrows of Empire, by Chalmers Johnson. Tell them to be smarter than the generation who fell for the "cold war" fear. Force them to grow up.