Iraq War Veteran Called ''Baby-Killer'' - verify

[sniffa]

i have no idea if this is true or not, so i figured i'd post it to DU, and hopefuLLy one/some of you were there.

We told you so...The anti-war, anti-American left (Kerry supporters, too) has begun to call our brave troops "baby-killers". As patriotic Americans, it's up to all of us to STAND UP TO THESE PEOPLE. I will say one thing, if I see this kind of treatment aimed at one of our brave soldiers, the doctrine of pre-emptive force will be applied

And some so-called conservatives out there think we should just leave Michael Moore alone...fat chance. We call a traitor a traitor. This is WAR.

Friday, July 9, 2004

Veteran gets rude welcome on Bainbridge

By ROBERT L. JAMIESON Jr.
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER COLUMNIST

Think about the Seattle area -- Bainbridge Island to be exact -- and you think scenic views and liberal-minded tolerance.

At least the killer views are still there.

The bucolic island's deep reputation for civility got a gut check this week during the annual Grand Old Fourth of July celebration.

That's when Jason Gilson, a 23-year-old military veteran who served in Iraq, marched in the local event. He wore his medals with pride and carried a sign that said "Veterans for Bush."

Walking the parade route with his mom, younger siblings and politically conservative friends, Jason heard words from the crowd that felt like a thousand daggers to the heart.

"Baby killer!"

"Murderer!"

"Boooo!"

To understand why the reaction of strangers hurt so much, you must read what the young man had written in a letter from Iraq before he was disabled in an ambush:

http://www.pabaah.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=549

i'm hoping this is Lies and inuendo.

[HuckleB]

1. The far right is getting desperate.

It was lies and innuendo during Vietnam, and it's the same today. The P-I is a RW rag without shame, as this column shows.

Fucking pitiful. Their war justification has been demolished, and they know that many soldiers already knew they were there for no good reason, and now all our soldiers know that, so the wingnuts must attempt to demonize those who truly care about our soldiers in order to save face.

What a crock of shit this is. What fascist propaganda.

Ugh.

By the way, is there a link to this via the P-I? The "module" doesn't work, and I'd like to know that it was actually published at the P-I.

[sniffa]

4. i figured as much

i wasn't aLive during vietnam, but i've read that the 'baby kiLLer' and spitting stories were a crock.

i know peopLe here get mad when i or anyone posts something from dishonest RWers, but i'd prefer to have debunking earLier than Later.

[Bat Boy]

28. I grew up watching Vietnam on TV.

And the cries of "Baby Killer" were not a crock. There were some very hostile welcomes for the Vietnam Vets. As a kid I heard them. That did happen.

I think it's important to correct the erronious idea that this was a right wing propaganda tool. We did that. The important thing is that we learned from it.

We fucked up there. Let's not blame it on someone else when there are plenty of perfectly good things to blame on them.

[SoDesuKa]

2. Agent Provocateur

It would be helpful to find out if the person who said it was another Bush supporter. A story like this is sensational, and it doesn't reflect the feelings of the antiwar movement. It sounds like it could be an agent provocateur.

[progressivebydesign]

3. pabaah? Bunch of right wing lunatics...

.. Bainbidge Island screaming "Baby killer!"??? I doubt it. Yes, it's fairly liberal, but it's not Haight Ashbury.. think more like.. Marin County, the richest areas. This story is bullshit heresay. NO ONE on the anti-war side ever really uses the term, "baby killer", that's been thrown around by psycho right wingers since Vietnam.

[sniffa]

9. hmmm

this site is shit - and we (frankenweb) started to fuck with their site and their stupid petition to charge moore w/ treason. (i keep signing their petition - instead of name address, etc, i've been fiLLing in the queries with "pLease urge john ashcroft to charge robert novak with treason" and such things) you can no Longer hyperLink from frankenweb - i keep getting a page that says "you're coming from a page we don't Like so goodbye"; so the cut n paste in a separate window works. :P

just above the 'baby kiLLer' story, they cLaim that moveon stiLL has the hitLer ad up... but the Link to the hitLer ad at moveon that they provide doesn't work.

so they just make shit up.

[DinahMoeHum]

5. There's a DU thread on this from last Friday. . .

here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=61531


Make of it what you will.


:bounce:

[bryant69]

6. Good thing that PABAAH

have something to do now that they have failed so spectacularly to prevent us from seeing Michael Moore's Movie.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[progressivebydesign]

7. Here's the link to the column:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/181422_robert09.html

Once again, it's another heresay event. The mother and her PRO BUSH group were making the allegations.. even going so far as to accuse an announcer of being sarcastic toward her son. This is just typical right wing bullshit.. they love to get riled up over shit like this, whether it happened or not. I'm so sick of these people. Should I run around screaming because I was cursed at and threatened at an anti-war protest???

[Joanne98]

14. I just e-mailed him again

I asked him who were the sources, the troop and his mother and her friends? I asked does anyone know the name of the person who called him a "baby-killer"? We'll see if he e-mails me back. I think he got duped and if he did he should say so. If anybody else wants to ask him anything his e-mail address is.


[e-mail] <[e-mail]>

I'd be polite. It looks like he got set-up. I doubt if he knew it.

[Zomby Woof]

43. Jamieson's a good guy

I used to drink and shoot the shit with him at a few dives in Lower Queen Anne back when I worked up the street from the P-I. {My employer had a business relationship with his). It's possible he was duped, and he is no wingnut - I know that well - but he tries to be fair as a journalist should, and producing a column a few times a week means cutting it close, while taking people at their word.

Please be civil with your email - he will respond in kind.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. I have seen nothing in print or on the tube to support this story....

...this is the same kind of crap that used to be blamed on Vietnam War protesters. It didn't happen back then, either.

Nothing but a NeoCon dirty trick that failed to take root.

[greendeerslayer]

10. Is it not a matter of public record...

...that some of our "brave troops" have killed babies?

[Bridget Burke]

12. But the "event" cited here

Is NOT a matter of public record.

[tommilator]

56. babies, children, women, elderly, wounded, unarmed and innocents

But public record doesn't matter in bizarro world. Aren't you glad Saddam is gone? Or are you a terrorist sympathizer?

Beware of the bombs of freedom.

[Joanne98]

11. It's a setup

The whole story smells. I e-mailed this reporter and asked him if he was related to Jason Blair. I haven't got any response. Other people did too. As far as I know he hasn't answered any questions like, how many sources, how many witnesses, who were they.etc. It looks like he got duped. The "baby killer" protesters were probably freepers. They're desperate.

[progressivebydesign]

13. I emailed the columnist...

.. because he has a "column", he's not held to the same standards as a journalist. I was polite, but asked him if he had any objective witnesses, or video tape to prove that this happened. I also let him know that I have YET to hear or see any anti-war person use the term "baby killer". That term seems to be the domain of falsely indignant right wingers trying to frame anti-war people as ugly as possible.

I've been to Bainbridge many times.. I live nearby... It's not the type of crowd these pabaah people are trying to make you believe... it's liberal, but it's wealthy, SUV driving liberal.

[Joanne98]

22. I e-mailed him too

asking for sources and proof so far no reply. This is how the "spitting hippie" myth started. We can't let them pull this urban legend crap again. He needs to reply.

[VOX]

15. There were some boos, but beyond that, no one heard anything else...

EXCEPT the vet who's making the claims. Interesting.

http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-07-10/local/200407103427.shtml
BAINBRIDGE ISLAND
'Murderer' comments spark national outrage
Iraq vet says he was singled out for insults during Grand Old Fourth parade
The Sun Link 7/10/04
By Steven Gardner, Sun Staff
An Iraq War veteran says he was called a "murderer" while marching in Sunday's Grand Old Fourth parade on Bainbridge Island. It was an accusation that has sparked horror among islanders and anger across the country.

There are conflicting versions of the incident, but even the tamest of them has generated apologies from islanders who say they didn't mean to offend any veterans.
<snip>
Kevin Dwyer, executive director of the Bainbridge Island Chamber of Commerce, the event's sponsor, said the booing is widely acknowledged, and he's not certain he can deny the "murderer" comments happened. But he hasn't found anyone else who witnessed them.

Bill Knobloch, a Bainbridge city councilman and former Navy commander, said he was in the area and heard the booing, but didn't hear anyone insulting veterans specifically.
<snip>
Nonetheless, Gilson is getting apologies from a parade announcer, from Dwyer and from Mayor Darlene Kordonowy. He also was contacted Friday by U.S. Rep. Jay Inslee, D-Bainbridge Island.

One version of the incident e-mailed to The Sun and other media outlets by Bainbridge resident and Vietnam veteran Frederick Scheffler indicated Gilson also was called a "baby killer."
<snip>
The story got national attention when a Seattle Post-Intelligencer column published Friday appeared on the popular Web site Drudgereport.com. It's believed that millions of people log onto the Drudgereport Web site each day.
<snip>

[Aidoneus]

16. There's been a fair bit of such killings going on there

So I don't really care what he was called, though for the sake of truthfulness I would ask him what he was involved in first.

[sadiesworld]

17. Gee, you would ask first?!

Big of you...:eyes:

[Aidoneus]

18. Yes, I am big on exactness

and statements as close to exact honesty as I could manage.

If he was involved with killing babies, like some of his peers are, then the shoe fits. If he was only involved in blowing up houses & markets and giving old men heart attacks after coming upon the sight of their dead families, then I would find some way to work that into the slogan instead.

[sadiesworld]

23. I would kill anything that moved.

It is lovely to think that I could differentiate and moralize but, at the end of the day I would cover my own ass. I imagine our soldiers are doing no less at this point.

I think our moral outrage and disgust is best spent on this mis administration.

[Aidoneus]

27. if that was the case

I would still see it fit to direct outrage and disgust at you. That which you describe are serious crimes if done within these borders, but "heroism" when done without?! (this is the crazy world we live in..) Such are things to be still held accountable for, in addition to "BFEE".

[leanings]

48. And I see it fit to direct disgust

at those who would call men with whom you could not even begin to emphasize by such names.

[Aidoneus]

49. the ExactVague dialect of Cryptese is cool when I do it

but even with my decoder ring (personally designed and hand made, of course) I can't make heads or tails of this.

I THINK you're sticking up for your boyz in the `tary against my little broadside, but I can't be sure.. Pretty sure you're directing disgust at me, and that's something I'm ok with, but could this be put a little differently?

[Karenina]

19. Y'aLL reaLLY need to get over yourseLves

or "jump over your shadows" as we say here.

American military forces, under orders, are GROTESQUELY ABUSING INNOCENT IRAQI CITIZENS, RIGHT LEFT AND CENTER. This is a FACT and not an anomaly. It is SOP. STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE. Get used to it because you will be dealing with the detritus of the souls of loved ones who manage to return ALIVE, with or without limbs, for DECADES to come.

You "allowed" your gub'mint to invade a weakened nation, whose puppet dictator got too uppity, KNOWING 50% of the population was under the age of 16. Never mind EVERYBODY in his neighborhood said, "leave it alone. He's not a threat." The entire invasion could be appropriately named, "Operation BABY KILL." Sorry if you find that unpalatable, but it IS the truth. American troops are bashing in doors, terrorizing toddlers, taking their older siblings away in handcuffs never to be seen again. CHILDREN are being locked up in cages and TORTURED. You may not want to accept that but the Iraqi "street" (among others) KNOWS and has seen the results of it. This is NOT to cast blame on American troops for "doing their duty." The question is WHO has defined what their "duty" is? As a result of "Shock and Awe" and EVERYTHING that has followed, UNCOUNTED BABIES HAVE BEEN KILLED. Was it Bremer who declared that they would NOT be tallied? This Madministration learned well from the Nazi errors. Dont count 'em. They NEVER existed. Sorry America, YOUR ARMED FORCES HAVE BEEN SEIZED BY BABY KILLERS WHO ARE FORCING THEM TO CARRY OUT THEIR SICK, MISANTHROPIC, GENOCIDAL POLICIES. Deal with it.

Our own poor babies who have been impressed into servitude to participate in this clusterfuck will return home and find scant support to recover from the trauma of violating their own CORE VALUES (despite having been indoctrinated into the Üntermenschen mentality) from those who sent them as agents to this atrocity. They are NOT STUPID and know now how they are being used and abused. The BABIES KILLED will be with them for the rest of their lives. The gub'mint's answer is to recycle them until there is no one left to tell the tale. Anyone recall what happened to the other members of Jessica Lynch's unit?

It is WAY PAST TIME for SANE folks to say NO. Parents MUST declare, NO. NO WAY you send MY KID into this flesh grinder. Kids must be educated to see the situation for what it truly is, that they themselves are empowered to stand up and say NO. NO, I will not be USED like that. MY LIFE has value. Iraqis' lives have value. YOUR POLICIES don't benefit our common good at all and I will NOT participate.

In the words of the sainted Nancy Reagan, JUST SAY NO. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[JohnLocke]

32. (Sigh)

Forget it.

[Zen]

34. Very good post.

n/m

[Kickin_Donkey]

50. Operation BABY KILL ...

you said it. SOME of the U.S. soldiers are, in fact, doing the killing – pulling the triggers, pushing the buttons that releasse the bombs. If the shoe fits ...

[G_j]

57. most people don't even dare to think

about the long term ramifications of this horrific undertaking. It will be with us for generations. The unthinkable violence and carnage will effect families, children and friends. It has stained our collective psyche in blood, cruelty and violence.
The healing may not even be possible in our life times.

Now imagine the trauma the Iraqi people have suffered.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. My Bullshit Detector...

Just went right off the charts.

[Karenina]

21. Really. The "story" itself STINKS.

Zum Himmel... x(

[G_j]

24. we had a very similar story reported here, turned out to be bogus

the RW radio station and newspaper both reported that a soldier had been cursed and spit on downtown. Spurred on by inflammatory rhetoric folks got in an uproar. Then various reporters tried to verify the story and track the "soldier" down.

They could find absolutely nothing, not a single witness or anyone who knew the "soldier". Eventually the RW blowhards had to admit that it probably wasn't true. It seems it was a story made up by a caller to the radio show.

[seabeyond]

25. hey wait a minute didnt read the article

but what i hear here, is he is campaigning for bush, not just coming back from war. they could have equally been calling out babykiller murder cause of bush agenda, and i do believe the right call out to the liberal baby killer, cause they are pro choice, not that they kill babies, but the policy and perceptions

oh no, this is not looking to me like a soldier being attacked for doing his job,.

[Columbia]

26. Well, I've been called a murderer and a barbarian here on DU

Does that count? No virtual spitting yet though.

[Aidoneus]

29. I keep forgetting to ask you

Did you kill anybody over there?

I've yet to actually call you something like that that up to now--since I wasn't sure if it would be an exactly true statement.. but I could start doing so if you'd like. I'd have to know if it was true first, however.

[Columbia]

31. Sorry to disappoint you

But no.

I did feed a lot of people, give out a lot of medicine, and work on a lot of humantarian aid projects though.

Feel free to call me whatever you want, however, others don't have a problem with it.

[seabeyond]

33. i am sorry if someone said that to you columbia

i have read many threads, especially with soldiers, or family memebers that have soldiers there, sending them to iraq, and i have heard only compassion for the families adn soldiers themselves on this board. i havent gone into the extreme threads or particularly flamed ones.

people on this board has attacked you as a baby killer cause you served?

not into the war, and have issue what is happening in iraq with our soldiers, and i have so much empathy they have the job they do, and are not being taken care of by military, in the senselessness of this battle and the inevitable losing cause i believe it is.

[Columbia]

36. Well, technically...

No one has called me baby-killer here yet (not that I remember anyway). People have just called me murderer, barbarian, and few other things.

I've mostly avoided speaking of my service since then, although I do poke in a few threads here or there. A lot of people have their minds made up about what Iraq or those who serve there must be like so on the occasions when I clarify a point or two by sharing my direct experience, people tend to get pretty upset when it goes against their preconceived worldview.

Thanks for your compassion, but I've gotten pretty thick-skinned since I've been back.

Actually, it was one of my greatest fears when I was deployed that when I returned I would be called a babykiller and be spit on, but that hasn't occured in real life just yet. I don't go around wearing shirts declaring my service (but I did buy one that said "Mission Accomplished" on it, go figure!) or march in parades or anything like that though.

[seabeyond]

40. i am glad you are back

and you said you did a lot of humanatarian work, and i am glad for that. i am sadden that that wasnt all that we did there or excalated to where it has, but never would i suggest you feel anything but honor for the work you did.

[Columbia]

42. Yeah me too

It enrages me when these so-called "insurgents" attack Iraqi civilians and destroy Iraqi infrastructure. We did so much work in those initial months getting NGOs to come in and work on various projects. Now, it is really tough to get NGO's to come in due to the security situation. It is getting better, but we should be much further along than we are now. The Iraqi's have been oppressed for decades and it's about time they get a break.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. Sorry to disappoint you, but I've never seen any post on DU....

...calling anyone a "baby-killer".

I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying I've never seen any post on DU containing that kind of language.

[Columbia]

37. Refer to post #36

[Warren DeMontague]

38. The People Who Bear The Blame For The War Policy

Are the people who make the war policy.

If I were a US Service member, I would be outraged when the blame for what goes down is laid on the average grunt.

But the only people I've seen doing that are pass-the-buck generals and pentagon officials with regard to Abu Ghraib, etc.

[Columbia]

44. I agree

However, I'd say that the responsibility for the crimes committed should be put on the average grunt who perpetrated them all the way up the chain.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. Well, "I was only following orders"

is never a valid excuse. But if you contrast how much things have changed since Vietnam- which was, by no means, a war free of humanitarian abuses- when LBJ at least gave lip service to international law by making each soldier carry a little copy of the Geneva Convention.. to now, when toadying lawyers in the White House deliberately write position papers on how that same "quaint" geneva convention can be disregarded, bypassed, or ignored... I think it's a sad, sad statement indeed on the moral bankrupcy of this administration and it's lackeys. Don't let the guys immediately responsible off the hook, no... But if they're being hung out to dry so the blame doesn't make it up the chain of command, hell, I'd much rather have the grunts get off if it means the people who gave the orders and set the tone, like Rumsfeld, will be held accountable.

[Zen]

30. I said Bush was a "Baby Killer" at work in front of conservatives at work

...I know at least one of them would be a freeper. Hehe! They took the bait like a nice plump little fish! I love to get under their skin like that! I'm sure I'm not the only one saying these things after the baby was tossed into the pickup truck on F-911. These poor poor cowards.

EDIT: Oh, my lazy self - I WOULD NEVER say something like that to a soldier - geez, they have enough problems without political people blaming them for something they had nothing to do with. It is fun to talk about Bush that way (he is, after all, responsible for the dead babies), but NOT the troops. They are good hard working guys - a lot of whom are fed up with Bush's war as well.

[durutti]

39. Most KKK members support the GOP.

Does that mean that most Republicans support the KKK?

[seabeyond]

41. bah ha ha the same we do stern and flint

yup

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Howard Stern might end up winning the election for Kerry...

I say, more power to him.

[leesa]

45. Oh yes, the soldiers being spit on and called "baby-killers"

Vietnam RW propaganda redux. I suppose we have to put up with all these planted articles until election day, huh?

[Nile]

51. Vietnam was not propaganda.

It really did happen to some Vietnam vets. Just because YOU choose to not believe it does not make it not true.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Please go to snopes.com...

[Nile]

54. Do not have to go to Snopes, I was there.

!

[Swamp Rat]

55. Where? When? How many witnesses do you have? Where's the film?

Where's the photographs?

[Nile]

58. I am surprised that you did not ask for a link.

Seattle airport November 1970. One witness, another army dude who was heading to the same terminal as myself. Heading for JFK in NY. About the photographs, get real.

[Swamp Rat]

59. I don't believe you

I've heard this SAME story over and over again from right wing vets who never saw combat. I've checked their stories out and each one was fake, based on urban legend, hence the snopes.com reference. This "baby killer" story has been used so many times by right wingers that I do not believe it anymore when I hear it. Perhaps it IS true in a few cases, just as it is true that some American GIs killed babies.

[bluestateguy]

53. Sounds like Internet lore in the making

If it did happen the catcallers should be ashamed of themselves. The baby killers are the neo-cons in the Pentagon, the White House and the computer peckers at the AEI and PNAC.

Let's see how this veteran feels when his benefits are cut by this Administration, he can't get a job because the good jobs were sent to India and the college money he was promised turns out to be about enough for a couple of community college courses. That should hurt a lot more than a few catcalls from a few unshowered Naderities.