How do I counter the Kerry is a socialist argument?

[usregimechange]

Besides the free trade agreements he has voted for?

[CO Liberal]

1. "Bush's Grandad Was a Nazi Fundraiser"????

:-)

[Democat]

Why do you have to prove he isn't - tell them to prove he is

How do you argue the "Kerry is an evil alien from mars" argument?

[stepnw1f]

2. Tell Them to Cite the Definition of Socialism

but have the definition handy to correct them.

[usregimechange]

3. I am writing a letter to the editor guys.... nt

[tjwash]

48. Is this in response to a letter to the editor?

nt

[radwriter0555]

50. In the most advanced democracy, socialism is more and more aligned with

its endeavors to assist the poor and to decrease the disparity between the haves and have nots.

How can this POSSIBLY be a bad thing?

Speak well of socialism, embrace that which IS NOW socialism. It is the natural evolution of our society.

[Sugarbleus]

66. Exactly...the definition of a Socialist is a far cry from

what Kerry really believes in; sadly in my opinion. :( I wish he were a socialist.

Maybe there should be a dictionary on these boards or readily available for free online for others to look stuff up in. Geeez...

Kucinich and Nader are closer to a socialist than Kerry. Kerry is more of a "moderate liberal"<--------is that possible? lol

There is a world of difference between a liberal Democrat and a Socialist.

[arcos]

4. ask them when did Kerry said the government should own companies...

and when did he advocated abolishing private property.

[Eric J in MN]

5. His health care proposals are more modest than Kucinich's (nt)

nt

[Deja Q]

6. Tell 'em he is against gay marriage

(leaves it up to the states)

[radwriter0555]

7. What's wrong with being a socialist? Socialism is for PEOPLE.

Don't let them represent the concept of socialism as a bad ideal or a bad endeavor.

Socialism is a good thing!!!!

[Pepperbelly]

8. "Kerry is a socialist" isn't an argument ...

it is a slur.

Baseless.

Crude.

Ignorant.

It deserves contempt, not reasonable argumentation.

Remember, he who asserts must prove. If someone asserts, "Kerry is a socialist," it is then THEIR burden to prov that assertion.

[Tosca]

9. Ask them to give you a working definition of socialism...

And when they blurt out their twisted definition, laugh in their faces.

[Eric J in MN]

10. By the way, anyone who says, "I'm not voting for Kerry because

By the way, anyone who says, "I'm not voting for Kerry because he's a socialist," probably isn't a swing voter

[fob]

30. Constructive criticism here EJ. When your first sentence is a repeat

of your subject, it makes my head hurt to read it. If that's your "thing", that's cool, but I tend to skip reading your posts when I see your name.

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm being a cheneyhead, just a little free advice. Take it for what it's worth.

:evilgrin:

[BeFree]

51. Yeah, what FoeOf Bush says.

It hurts, EJ, it really hurts.

Back to socialism.... it's about People. Capitalism, otoh, is about money. So our society has this battle going on between the two. People vs. money.

Well, let's all hope John Kerry is more of a socialist than a capitalist, eh?

[mhr]

11. Just Ask Them To Define Socialist Before The Discussion Continues

This will usually cause them to defeat their own arguments.

[Cat Atomic]

12. Say Bush is an evil robot from Venus.

Demand the other guy disprove your claim.

You don't have to refute ridiculous claims. The other person has to back them up.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Are you sure he's not? n/t

[Cat Atomic]

27. C'mon, man- there aren't any evil robots from Venus.

They come from Saturn. Everybody knows that. :p

[spanone]

13. Bush* is a facist.

[fob]

14. Tell the masterdebater you're discussing this with that his side

will have to make up their minds, is Kerry a too-liberal socialist or is he a can't stay focused flip-flopper? And he should submit HIS proof in triplicate with appropriate footnotes and sources attributed. Have him start with a detailed analysis of EVERY vote he has ever recorded over the last 20 years. In fairness he should provide a similar expose of shrub and cheney. ESPECIALLY cheney's military downsizing votes and plans.

THEN, and only then can he kiss your ass.

[sandnsea]

15. Got anything original?

The Republicans have been accusing the Democrats of being communists or socialists for nearly 100 years now. Funny how the economy always does better under Democrats. Ya' stupid brainwashed conservo-zombie.

Or something like that. So sick of their shit.

[FlemingsGhost]

16. Don't. Anyone who would argue such, is talking nonsense.

Why waste your time. Your opponent is a fool.

[SConrad]

23. We are socialists

Let's just come out of the closet and admit that we are socialists.

[Cat Atomic]

28. It's cute the way you say, "we", Kemosabe.

[radwriter0555]

49. What's WRONG with BEING a SOCIALIST? We have PUBLIC schools, we have

public aid, public housing, public care programs... We are in fact QUITE socialist... without the nickname.

I'd like America to be MORE socialist about her people, and far less capitalist. Capitalism is for the rich, it's not for the masses. Let the capitalist enterprises fund the socialist endeavors that provide the capitalists with the labor they need to stay rich.

We want a piece of the pie too.

[Cat Atomic]

68. That guy was baiting.

I'm all for national healthcare, raising the minimum wage, and all the rest of it. But I know a baited hook when I see one.

[Kanary]

81. Good as far as it goes, but........

The RW is trying to get rid of public schools.

The RW is trying to get rid of public housing.

The RW is trying to get rid of "public care programs"

You didn't mention libraries, but the RW is also making attacks on public libraries.

Electric companies used to belong to municipalities, as well as water companies, and those are slowly going the way of the dodo bird.

About the only thing we can say isn't under attack (yet) are roads. So far, I don't think they can figure out how to "privatize" them, but I'm sure the day will come.

Now that I've thoroughly depressed myself, I'll go read some Eugene Debs.

Kanary

[Imperialism Inc.]

69. I'm pretty sure there have been polls on this topic.

Every time well regulated capitalism wins out over socialism.

[usregimechange]

29. I am going to embarrass them in public... nt

[FlemingsGhost]

34. They've already embarrassed themselves.

Ignorance is not pretty. Pretension ain't no beauty, either.

[gratuitous]

18. Considering capitalism's track record

I'd say that being socialist may not be such a bad thing -- Union Carbide, Philip Morris, Freeport McMoRan, Monsanto, McDonald's, ADM, Wal-Mart, Halliburton, Bechtel, General Motors, and Coca-Cola all have much to answer for.

[usregimechange]

31. Not going to help in southwest missouri nt

[LiberalFighter]

88. Aren't they all socialists?

They have their hands out for our money all the time. Tax abatements, reduced or no taxes.

[takebackourjobs]

19. So what is the dilemma?

Socialism doesn't require defense. Ignorance requires education.

If someone gives you grief over socialist labels you just sit down with them and explain Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the 40 hour work week, and just about any other time-honored American tradition. Socialist is a term thrown around by fools that think paying their taxes is an infringement of their god-given rights, and who believe that the Republican Party represents their true interests.

[Zen]

20. Because he isn't.

Duh.

[trof]

21. I just say "IS NOT!"

Heck, I can argue with the infantile just as well as the next guy.
;-)

[shockingelk]

22. "Yeah? Well, you're a Republazoid. Bush LOVES medicare." n/t

[shance]

24. Tell him there are no Socialist leaders in our Congress

You may want to tell him you wish we did have some Socialist leaders to counter all the fascist rhetoric.

[Kellanved]

25. Pardon?

That's no argument, it is an insult.


Remember: "Don't argue with idiots. They will
drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

[Warren DeMontague]

26. He's Running On The Democrat Ticket, Not The Socialist. n/t

[usregimechange]

32. Gezz, guys how about helping instead of bitching! nt

[patrice]

33. Kerry proposes that the exchange for health care services

should be regulated by the government to provide care for more people. This does not make him a socialist because he does not propose that the government OWN the means of production of those or any other goods or services. He just wants to see that they are controlled because the costs are too high. Since the health industry could make their costs lower, and their services thus more affordable by all, it is their fault that this is necessary.

They should be controlled in a manner similar to that which governs the availability of utilities or education or transportation. All of which seems pretty acceptable to folks complaining about reforming health care.

[librechik]

35. ask him if he's ready to give up his social security

or public schools for his kids, or the 40 hr work week, or paid sick leave, or good roads to visit grandma on. If not, can he get hose himself without help?

The RW wants to tell their dupes that there is nothing good about socialism, but "social" ideas led to all those "good" government programs they use every day.

No individual can run an entire country. It takes a collective to do it, and a collective to share the cost, whether it be a government through taxes or a charity through contributions. Calling these good programs socialism (because the RW knows their brainwashed dupes will turn livid like Pavlov's dog at the mere mention of the word) is class warfare, and the Pukkes are doing it against the ordinary working stiff.

He is a victim of the decades of propoganda the RW has filled the culture with in order to take awya their rights and benefits without their complaining. Instead they will blame it on liberals like Kerry, who are actually the slim hope we have of getting our lives back from these fascists. Calling Senator Kerry a socialist because he wants to preserve your rights as an American is bigoted and wrongheaded and unAmerican.

[ikojo]

36. To the right-wing DEMOCRAT equals SOCIALIST

This is a no win argument.

If you insist upon entering into this straw man of an argument then I would ask the pug about all the corporate welfare for "needy" corporations.

[stellanoir]

37. Say what I recently said to my RW brother. .

he used to be the funniest liberal hippie dude and then he perilously got a ham radio. Has been a tried and true Bush supporting wingnut since then. When for the upteenth time he started up about "dems being socialists," I stared him down and said, "so you prefer fascism. . .?" He finally caved and said, "I just wish there was someone to vote for."

We're in a deeply blue state so it's barely worth my breath going any further with him.

[Habibi]

59. Wow. This post stopped me dead. Ham radio

turns you into a wingnut? My fiance used to be into ham when he was a youngster; you couldn't find a more liberal man than he today, though. What, are all the frequencies taken up by Neo-nazis, now? (Not to hijack the thread or anything.)

[Trajan]

38. The 'Yer a socialist' canard is typically false ....

First: DEFINE Socialism ...

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary Website:
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=socialism&x=14&y=19

Main Entry: so·cial·ism

Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m

Function: noun

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

=======================================

1) Does Kerry (or the Democratic Party) advocate 1: collective or governmental ownership of the means of production or distribution of goods ? ...

NO !

2) Does Kerry (or the Democratic Party) advocate 2 A: a system of society there is no private property, or 2B : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state ????

NO !

3) Does Kerry (or the Democratic Party) advocate the overthrow of capitalism and the embrace of Marxism ? ...

NO! NO! NO! ....


The use of the term 'Socialist' is usually a strawman fallacy and ad hominem insult ....

Calling Kerry a socialist in intellectually dishonest ....

It is a lie ....

[Forkboy]

39. Just laugh at them

because anyone who would mistake Kerry for a socialist is a bozo.

[jbm]

40. don't totally dismiss socialism...

I don't favor widespread public ownership, but things like the fire department and police department are working examples of pure socialism. If we can pool our resources to provide the community with those mutually beneficial services, why stop there? I hope that Kerry DOES bring a little more 'socialism' into the country. We have 'settled' for far less than we could have had, simply because we went with the best interests of the corporations and the wealthy, instead of the best interests of the people.


edited cause I can't type

[Tina H]

41. First, agree on a definition of "socialist"

with the person you are engaging in discussion.

If you can't agree on a definition of "socialist" then terminate the discussion (politely, of course).

[mvd]

42. He's just wants to curb runaway capitalism

For example, he just mentions rolling back the tax cuts for the wealthy - not raising them to the point I would. ;-)

Also, of course mention how because of Bush's propaganda, mainstream conservatives like Specter look moderate..

[AndyTiedye]

43. It's Not Capitialism if a Cartel (Enron, Halliburon) Buys the Government

The basis for capitalism is FAIR COMPETITION.

The basis of the Bush* regime is NO-BID CONTRACTS to cronies, and
even INVADING OTHER COUNTRIES at their behest.

That is not capitalism. It is socialism by the back door. Instead of the government
doing a hostile takeover on business, some businesses have done a hostile takeover
of the government.

[Redleg]

44. It's not even worth countering. Any asshole that would try to make

a political point about calling Kerry a socialist is obviously too god-damned dumb for words.

[gulliver]

45. Why do you say that?

People who say dumb things like "Kerry is a socialist" are always stumped when they have to say why they think it. Since it isn't true, you know they won't come up with anything good. You can't lose.

[usregimechange]

46. My editorial! Thank you DU

Gerald Fowler recently called the Democratic Party “the USA’s version of the communist/socialist slavery” (Letter to the Editor, July 12th 2004). On the economic dimension the American Left is generally closer to socialism than the American Right on economic issues. On the social dimension conservatives are generally more authoritarian than Liberals, which makes them closer to communism and Nazism on social issues. The key word here is “closer.” Fascism and communism are political extremes and any honest informed discourse would not use them to describe the two major political parties in the United States.

Is John Kerry a socialist? What a joke. Would a socialist vote for free trade agreements? No, a socialist would want governmental ownership of all private enterprise. Kerry wants to give tax credits to small businesses. Kerry wants reasonable free trade that respects our environment, workers, and keeps American jobs in America.

Should Democrats than partake in calling conservatives “fascists” like some of them call us socialists? No, I think we should win with truth and hope on our sides not the politics of ignorance, deception, and fear.

[stavka]

47. How'bout "Kerry is an Aristocrat, with a Billionaire wife"?

...don't waste your breath with people who talk about socialism/communism in a political argument, they would label people werewolves and witches in earlier generations.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Not that there is a gol-durned thing wrong with being a socialist

[Trajan]

56. The only thing wrong with being a socialist ....

Is losing elections by historical landslides ...

[The Flaming Red Head]

53. Heinz or Grey Popoun

He's married to one of the richest women in the country. Who would be dumb enough to call him a socialist, damn.

[Cats Against Frist]

54. Completely Shame Them

and ridicule them. Tell them about how the right has extrapolated the Democratic party, whose leaders are more conservative than liberal, out to be socialists and communists, to mobilize their religious base.

Give them the definition of communism -- which is nationalization of all industry production and distribution, abolition of all material wealth, etc.

And tell them that "socialism" in America is a meaningless word, and that they've fallen into a paranoid, right-wing mindset.

Just treat it with laughter. Because that's what it warrants.

[sendero]

55. Laugh in their face...

.... because they clearly have no fucking idea what a socialist is, beyond what Rush told them.

[WilliamPitt]

57. By laughing

How many multi-millionaire socialists have you heard of?

:eyes:

[pschoeb]

58. Trying to respond while laughing to death, You can't counter such an

argument, if is being made seriously, because that is one of the clear symptoms of someone who has had a cerebrumectomy, the voluntary removal or accidental destruction of the rational portion of their brain. I looked it up in the DSM III and it distinclty lists as one of the symptoms.

Thinks John Kerry is a socialist

[The Flaming Red Head]

60. I wish he was

don't you?

[GreenPartyVoter]

61. Yes, I do, and welcome to DU!

[The Flaming Red Head]

62. GreenParty is the nicest one on the board

imagine that!

[Hippo_Tron]

71. Honestly, I don't

I do believe that we do need social programs and that the government should work for the greater good of the people, but I also believe in capitalism and a free economy.

[The Flaming Red Head]

73. I'm too poor to be a capitalist

A little more populism (appeal to the common folk like me and my friends and family) would do this party some good.

More bread and less circus!

[Hippo_Tron]

78. Oh I agree that we need more populism

But I'm not for all out socialism. I believe that we should live in a country where everybody should have the opportunity to get ahead no matter what class they are born into. I also believe that this can coincide with a capitalist economy.

[The Flaming Red Head]

79. It hasn't yet

at least not under the republicans or really under the Democrats either.

A little more socialized medicine and I might even shut up and quit bitching.

[Hippo_Tron]

80. Oh, I'm not denying that we have yet to get things to where they should be

Granted, I do believe that Clinton could've done a lot of good for the lower and middle classes had the democrats had control of congress.

But again, things like universal healthcare, perscription drugs, and good public education can be enacted without getting rid of the capitalist system. I believe that John Kerry can do just that if he gets a dem congress.

[The Flaming Red Head]

87. OK Boo you got me convinced

I ain't gonna argue with you no more.

[Hippo_Tron]

94. Wasn't trying to be infalamatory or anything, just trying to debate...

But we should probably let this go, it's going WAY too far to the right of the page.

[durutti]

63. Counter?

It's not even worth dignifying with a response.

[leesa]

64. Why would you think he's a socialist??

[Imperialism Inc.]

65. If he is speaking of the fact that Kerry may be more inclined

to regulate commerce than a Republican, point out that Republicans are more than willing to keep funding the Pentagon at ever increasing rates. Many of the modern high tech products we all enjoy originally started out as DoD projects because they would be too expensive for private R&D. Of course, once we all pay for it , it is handed over to private hands to reap all the cash rewards. You can also point out that they seem to have no problem giving certain industries tax breaks and subsidies. Then you can claim the R's are socialists too (by his definition) and watch the confusion ensue.

If his brain hasn't exploded yet, then you can get more serious and point out that regulating a pseudo-capitalist(see above for pseudo reasoning) system has nothing to do with socialism, which is a system where all means of production are owned by the entire populace.

[JackDragna]

67. Just look at people like they're lunatics.

People have no idea what they're talking about if they say things like that. They might as well accuse Kerry of being a Martian.

[Hippo_Tron]

70. I use their own argument against them, he has 5 houses

I use the same argument when people call Michael Moore a socialist.

[vision]

72. Early Christians were socialist

Jesus and his followers lived at least communally if not full blown socialism. Everything but the shirts on their back was commonly owned and Jesus said to give that up if needed.

This is the biggest problem I have with so much of the "Christian" right that promote so much of the "money money" mantra. I cannot see Jesus following that path.

Say that Kerry is a good Catholic and is avoiding the great sin of "Greed"

[porphyrian]

74. Use the Definition of Socialism

so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

from Merriam-Webster


Is this Kerry?

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

75. The same way you counter the "Kerry hates America" argument...

Ask them to prove it with FACTS, and not distortions, propaganda, and vitriol. The trade agreement point is good too.

[BurtWorm]

76. Why take such an "argument" seriously at all?

Americans are too ignorant, afraid and anti-commonsensical to be socialists, whether they're Republicans or Democrats. End of "argument."

PS: Americans don't know what socialism is. It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion about socialism with Americans.

[YNGW]

77. Democratic Socialism

Isn't democratic socialism something that the party and our country as a whole should be striving for? I wouldn't run from it at all.

Isn't it the responsibility of those who have the most to give back the most? That's the heart of socialism, that is redistributing resources from where it's collected to where it's needed. There are needs of the whole which transcend the needs of the individual. Socialism simply recognizes those needs and acts accordingly. That's where we differ from the rethugs. They believe market forces can see to everyones needs, that supply and demand will filter it's way through and that people in general will see to it that the needs of the whole are met. We understand that more often than not the government must do more than just lend oversight, that it needs to control the process to ensure that the needs are really being met for the good for the state.

[UdoKier]

82. Perhaps explaining the difference between liberal and socialist...

would be a good start. I'm pretty sure Kerry has never nationalized industries or turned our economy into a managed one where wages and prices are set by the state...


But what the hell do I know. On the Earth where I live, the word "liberal" has nothing but positive connotations...

If you're afraid to even defend liberalism, you've lost half the battle.

I would say. "He's a liberal on all the things he should be liberal on. He looks out for working people, and will keep our country strong. Bush is using our military as a playtoy and is only looking out for the top 1%."

[Zorra]

83. It's hard to debate with the ignorant. If someone thinks Kerry is a

socialist, than they are not familiar enough with social, political, and economic systems to be able to comprehend what you say.

[Swamp Rat]

84. I just tell 'em, "Kerry ain't no socialist, he's a plutocrat!"

"I'M a socialist so I should know!"... that gives them two things to figure out at the same time, usually resulting in a burnt transistor.

[bobbyboucher]

85. Are you male?

If so, tell them to suck your cock.

If female, I defer.

[rman]

86. I'd say "i wish he would be"

universal healthcare, living minimum wage, etc... well.. we can dream can't we?

[kayell]

89. Laugh hysterically and then quote Swamp Rat #84

[Selwynn]

90. Don't try. If Kerry was a socialist, he'd be a better candidate ;)

If you really must, have them define socialism for you first. 99% chance what they define has nothing to do with anything. Then ask them for specific examples of what they're talking about, and then don't apologize for Kerry's record on social issues/programs - instead show them why it is morally right and just and in the best tradition of this nation that we have social concern and programs for social wellfare.

[mr blur]

91. What the hell's wrong with being a Socialist?

Is it a crime over there, or something?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. Anybody who thinks Kerry is a socialist

1) doesn't know what a socialist is, except that Fox News tells them it's something bad and
2) doesn't know what Kerry's actual positions are, except that Fox News tells them they're bad

Besides, free trade is a laissez-faire capitalist concept, not a socialist one.

Send your friend/relative to a dictionary or an encyclopedia to learn a few definitions.

[ProfessorGAC]

93. Make Them Define Socialism

My experience is that most of them haven't the slightest clue what socialism and capitalism actually are. It's just a buzzword that frightens foolish people.

Then, even if they know the definition, ask them for specifics in the socialist policies Kerry has championed.

My guess is you won't need to get to step 2.
The Professor