Ouch! Sun-Times columnist slams ESPY/Tom Cruise tribute to Tillman. . .

[wndycty]

ESPYs' tribute to Tillman will be time to tune out

July 13, 2004

BY CAROL SLEZAK SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Afew things I need to get off my mind: Tom Cruise will present a tribute to Pat Tillman during the ESPY Awards. You remember Tillman, who quit the NFL to join the Army Rangers and was killed in Afghanistan earlier this year. You remember Cruise, who in lieu of a box-office hit will happily reach millions of homes via ESPN.


Words I expect Cruise to use during the Tillman tribute: hero, courage, warrior.

Sentiments I don't expect Cruise to express during the Tillman tribute: unjust war, his poor widow, what was he thinking?

Remind me not to watch.
-snip-

http://www.suntimes.com/output/slezak/cst-spt-carol13.html

[trumad]

1. You're certainly in the minority over Pat Tillman

I think the guy is special and so do a whole bunch of other folks.

[joeybee12]

2. To be disgusted by the tribute, doesn't mean you don't think

Tillmn was special. I don't think the poster meant that either.

I certainly won't be watching some fake, Hollywood bullshit tribute.

[wndycty]

3. Yeah I think the columnist is not dissing Tillman. . .

. . .but attacking the tribute because it will high on patriotism but lacking on humanism. Its one of those positions that is hard to take because its very complicated. I don't think Slezak was dissing Tillman or his sacrifice I think she is dissing the presentation which she expects to lack substance.

[trumad]

5. It's a Sports award banquet, and Tillman was a NFL Football player!

For God Sakes... The guy deserves some props and where better to do it than on the biggest Sports Awards show?

So fucking what if it's patriotic. If they kiss Bush's ass during the tribute then I agree... Let's wait and see....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. Okay....I'm probably going to be blasted for this, but here goes....

Why does Tillman deserve any greater props than any other soldier who volunteered to serve in the military? Why is his death any more special than the deaths of all those who have died before Tillman, and after Tillman?

Why aren't the rest of our dead soldiers not getting this kind of tribute? Where are the cameras at THEIR funeral ceremonies?

And is Tillman's death any more or less special than the tens of thousands of other people that have died in the Middle East based on the lies told to the world by FratBoy and Dick?

[Forkboy]

63. Man,he played ball !!!!!

That's good enough for America!!!

<sarcasm>

[Hobarticus]

71. I'm with you on that one...

It's a tragedy, but there's damn near a thousand other tragedies out there too.

[Wind Dancer]

4. Of course he is special, so are the other

troops who have given their lives to fight for their belief. It just seems he gets the national spotlight when many other heroes are ignored.

[trumad]

6. He's getting the spotlight on a Sports Award show!

He was an NFL player. If Joe Sixpack the plumber was killed in Afghanistan and the Plumbers Union had a banquet and decided to honor the dude.. Great.

[Wind Dancer]

11. Excellent point!

I now understand it's a Sport's Award Show and responded too quickly. He certainly should be honored, a life cut far too short by this crazy war. I mourn the loss of any of our soldiers, my apologies if I sounded insensitive, the soldiers are one of my biggest concerns. My others posts indicate my passion.

[treepig]

21. sure, but why isn't the FAA (felony assaulter's of america)

holding a pat tillman tribute?

somehow that'd be alot more appropriate considering that he found a way to go beyond beating people senseless (i.e., killing them) in satisfying his violent tendancies, plus it was totally legal - indeed, highly condoned by the gov't.

[FredScuttle]

68. Holeee Kayrist

hang around Ted Rall much?

Would you hold that all of our servicemen and women are "satisfying violent tendencies" rather than serving their country, as Tillman did?

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. Bingo! Well said. They can honor him as they wish. We are making too

much of this, when there are other important things to get really upset over.

[Stew225]

7. A touchy issue this is but Tillman is decidely

different in that, unlike the majority of soldiers who are doing their duty due to economic hardship, Tillman passed up millions in order to do what "he felt was the right thing." I mean, isn't that a pretty good example for anyone?

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. I guess not.

:( I guess we always have to make it into more than it is.

[progressivebydesign]

25. Sadly.. money made him more special to celebrity obsessed patriots..

That's what is so sad about it. It's really a tragedy that he was killed.. just as much of a tragedy as each and every soldier who has died in Bush's TWO wars. Many left behind widows and children who will struggle financially for the rest of their lives. Tillman, like any other soldier who volunteered for duty, should be celebrated equally. BUT.. the term hero was bestowed upon him, almost to the exclusion of every other soldier killed, ALL because he gave up MILLIONS and a CELEBRITY job to fight the war. That is wrong. Giving up money and fame should mean NO MORE than giving up the chance to see your family again, to have a father or mother for your children, just to live the rest of your life. They're ALL heroes.

This is a sports banquet. So it makes sense to honor him there.. just as a high profile doctor killed in the war, might be honored an AMA event. OF course this will be sensationalized, and hyped.. but that's the nature of America, now.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. He's just as special as every other human being killed in this war...

Additionally, he was killed by friendly fire....not exactly the "heroic" way his death was described in earlier versions of this story.

I define "hero" as any person that goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to save or protect other people. I'm not sure that Tilley qualifies for that title, even though when he voluntered, he did so because he thought he was doing the right thing based on the lies told by the NeoCons.

[RetroLounge]

66. Yes, and so were the other US troops that served with him

You know, the ones who actually killed him...

Think Cruise will mention that little tidbit?

RL

[Catfight]

8. Tom Cruise is a crazy scientologist who's sperm is as weak as his

character. I can't stand his superficial laugh, like everything is so funny around him. Another flaky mediocre actor. BORing.

[The Stranger]

9. Didn't the Army conclude Tillman was killed by friendly fire?

Will ESPN report the results of that investigation?

[trumad]

13. He was killed in the line of duty during a firefight

Friendly fire kills just as much as enemy fire. Why would ESPN bring that up? This is a tribute at a Sports Award show folks... Sometimes I think we Progressives get caught up in shit that don't mean shit. Let it go...

[The Stranger]

16. You answered your own question.

The fact that friendly fire kills so many Americans is something that people should know about, especially if they are going to vote for someone who will send more Americans to die as a result of friendly fire in other, ongoing wars.

[trumad]

17. er..ok

then maybe Cruise can do a 5 minute refresher on friendly fire deaths...:eyes:

[The Stranger]

40. That's the spirit!

We'll transform Tom Cruise from a bumper sticker patriot imbecile into an enlightened progressive.

Or something like that.

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. Does friendly fire make his death, or a memorial, any less?

I don't think so. He was killed in action.

[The Stranger]

44. Not sure about memorials, but it certainly shows war for what it is.

[patcox2]

10. Tillman was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. Where does she get "unjust war?"

I am sick of the slavering over this guy, he is worth no more than anyone else, I much more admire people who have some fame and ability to influence others who speak out against war instead of running off to take part in the killing.

But still, this columnist is off base to say that Afghanistan was an unjust war. Thats sloppy or stupid, I am not sure which. Afghanistan is the only defensible action we have taken, and its indefensible that we have turned our attention away from afghanistan and its neighbor, our so-called friend, pakistan, to go to Iraq.

[w13rd0]

12. Afghanistan could be argued to be "unjust"...

...in the sense that those US soldiers there are a "token" presence in what was a glossed-over, unfinished dirty little "war" quickly handed over to an "international body". There are STILL soldiers dying in Afghanistan, but you hear NOTHING about this country we "liberated" from the Taliban. And now Iraq is suffering the same fate. Bush says "mission accomplished", though it isn't, soldiers still die, but the media acts as if it's all over and everyone is safe at home (or scared at home, in the case of politically expedient terra alerts). THAT is most certainly "unjust"...

[trumad]

14. At the beginning of the Aghan war it did seem a just cause...

It ain't Tillman's fault that Bush fucked it up. Tillman went over to kick the Taliban and Osama's ass. Little did he know that the Bush gang would screw it up.

[frylock]

15. when you consider that saudi arabia and pakistan had more to do..

with 9/11 than Afghanistan, it could be considered an unjust war. Of course, Paki has nukes, and the Sauds 0WN us, so I guess we had to bomb someone.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. I can't get behind you on this.

I do respect and admire Tillman for giving up a comfy, monied lifestyle for what he believed in, whether I agree with it or not. Any person willing to lay their life on the line for their country deserves respect. That Pat did it while giving up a promising career and lots of money does impress me. sorry.

[buycitgo]

20. I/m so ffffffffing sick of the good german defense

lots of Nazis were patriotic, and supported Hitler's war of aggression

what's so admirable about that?

we did NOT have to do what we did in Afghanistan, ie bombing the shit out of innocent civilians to accomplish what we DID NOT even accomplish, which was to wipe out AlQaeda, not get rid of the Taliban, which we apparently didn't do, either

if our soldiers were doing ANYTHING to protect our interests, I might feel differently

they are acting directly AGAINST our interests now

the ones I support are the ones who are refusing to fight, just as happened in Vietnam

btw, I wear my dad's dog tags from WWII, ever since March of last year, when it became apparent we lost that war to the fascists who were about to turn our country into what Germany became under Hitler, so there are wars that I WOULD support

got it?

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Nope. I don't. Sorry. It's not the "good german" defense. I support

anyone who truly believes in their convictions. I don't know many who would give up that kind of salary. Every single man or woman who was put in this position is going to get my support. I really don't think that makes me a "good german". I'm against giving congressional Democrats the slip on their votes. No pass. Apples and oranges. Don't like it, don't watch it. I'm not going to watch because I've gotta get my children in bed, and the only thing sports that interests me is the NFL draft, preseason and season. They can do what they want.

[buycitgo]

24. "I support anyone who truly believes in their convictions"

so you support Hitler, then?

right? he believed his convictions

support Bush? he believes his

support Tim McVeigh?

support Atta?

[ScreamingMeemie]

26. No he didn't. No he didn't. Not the same. And I'm really tired

of the Nazi comparisons. How many of us were filled with rage on 9-11? How can we cry watching Michael Moore's film showing the dragging of poor young men and women into service and feel for them, and not for a man who was duped by George Bush's lies. He is to blame? I don't think so.

Does George Bush believe in his convictions? I've never thought so. He's a puppet. Plain and simple. Life is not so black and white.

Go ahead and twist my words to your pleasure, but I'm just not going to buy into that.

How do you know that Tillman didn't write home questioning his role in the war, just as Mrs Lipscomb's son did? Call me a bleeding heart, but I still respect Tillman. And I believe his teamates and the NFL have the right to honor him in the way they see fit. I look at it as outside the realm of politics.

Edited for grammar error.

[buycitgo]

28. not twisting anything

did we invade two countries, or not?

did we have the right to invade either? certainly none at all WRT Iraq

and how can you say that honoring Tillman is outside the realm of politics? did you see what the junta did with his memorial service, and how angry his brother got, when he saw what they had in mind?

remember Jessica Lynch? her reaction to what they tried to do to her?

AFA Bush's convictions, you MAY be right about that, but what about the others?

or any fanatic who acts on his beliefs?

come on, get real

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. The NFL honoring him is hardly political.

I really do respect your opinion in all honesty. But, my fear is that we are really making mountains out of molehills sometimes. Everytime I turn on the radio and hear one more death in this unjust war, it brings me to tears. I don't hate the soldiers...I hate the machine that put them there. If my brother were to feel it his duty to serve, and then to die for this. Regardless of my opinion of this war, am I to spit in his grave? Not attend his funeral? I can still respect him and rage against the society that brought his death. That's all. And, I can still respect those who have the courage to stand up against it and refuse to serve.

[buycitgo]

33. and I yours

I don't spit on their graves, come ON. they do what they're told, and, as such, are instruments of a criminal foreign policy

doesn't make it right, though, does it?

afa the NFL, they're huge supporters of the war, as well

as a fan, surely you've seen all the sickening, jingoist displays during many NFL games, not to mention the super bowl, allstar games, even preseason games

just wait a few weeks and see what they do at the hall of fame game

As an NFL fan, I find myself often turning off the TV at such nauseating propaganda infusions, in the name of patriotism

Leni Riefenstahl would be proud

knowingly or not, and I think they do, they're playing into a very partisan agenda

why don't they have a halftime show devoted to BRINGING THE TROOPS HOME?

huh?

[buycitgo]

27. Sorry........this 'war' really infuriates me, on many levels

on a more sporting note, for Ripken lovers

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. Luckily, I am not a Ripken fan. Nor a baseball fan.

Not since the strike. :hi: :)

[bobbyboucher]

29. Tillman was a victim of his own

bloodlust and reptilian brain thinking.

I feel bad for his family and his widow. A promising future down the drain because of a knee-jerk reaction.

Sorry in advance to the money worshippers who give him so much credit because he "gave up millions".

[rinsd]

34. Same to those....

Who characterize him a blood thristy killer.

He gave up a comfortable life to serve. Admirable. Died serving. Admirable.

He wasn't a saint but he also wasn't a demon.

Ironic you that you speak of repitillian brain thinking when you look at it in the same simplistic black and white terms.

[buycitgo]

35. died serving what? a criminal enterprise?

what's admirable about that?

support those who refuse to fight, refuse to kill in the name of however you choose to describe this offense against humanity

not to mention the fact that we're making things worse for almost EVERYBODY.

the ONLY ones who benefit are the terrorists AND those who profit

nice combo, huh?

who was the happiest man on earth when we hit Iraq?

[rinsd]

36. He served his country....

Not Bush.

Do you think if anyone but Bush was in office, he would have said screw this?

And people wonder where the impression that the left doesn;t like the military comes from.

You can oppose the war without denigrating those who serve. Nuanced I know for some of you fire breathers but it is indeed possible.

[buycitgo]

42. nuanced?

who cares who ordered the war?

it was CRIMINAL

know anything about the Nuremburg trials?

just following orders, and all?

what they're doing over there is not just wrong, it's CRIMINAL

they are the INSTRUMENTS of a regime as heinously criminal as Hitler

why don't you go over to Baghdad and see how wonderful they think our soldiers are?

[rinsd]

49. Reactionary thought...not just for morans anymore.

Black and white thinking is still black and white thinking regardless of intent or political persuasion.

[noiretextatique]

55. what does "serving your country" really mean?

when the entire justification for this war was based on nothing but lies? i don't blame the victims...tillman and other soldiers just like him are victims, imho.
please explain to me how this country is being served by the deaths of american soldiers in these wars.

[treepig]

37. maybe he's not a "blood thirsty killer"

but he did have a long-standing involvement in violent behavior.

that's not all the admirable to me, but to each their own i suppose.

[trumad]

38. The fucking Neo-Chickenhawks on this thread make me sick...

So easy to sit in your comfort chair and diss a dead guy for serving his country. Let me tell you something... I'm as left as they come and after 9/11 I wanted to hunt down the fuckers who committed this horrendous act. AND so did a great MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY. You comparing the Soldiers of the U.S Military to Nazi's is an insult to ex-vets like myself and others who proudly served his country.

This reply is not to treepig but to the other Morans up above.

[treepig]

39. it's probably like the situation with lawyers

where it's the 95% who ruin the reputation of everybody!

or something like that.

btw, the fuckers who committed the horrendous act were dead - blown up real good. consequently, if you wished to hunt them down, it would have been more appropriate to pick through the ashes at ground zero than go kill innocent civilians and two-bit warlords in afghanistan

[trumad]

41. Oh really

So Osama wasn't the mastermind? Is that what you're saying?

[treepig]

46. mohamed atta and/or the pakistani minister of intelligence

were most likely the mastermind(s).

i suspect the osama had little to do with it, except perhaps to serve as a far away, semi-mythical inspirational figure. much like smokey bear inspires people to prevent forest fires but when it comes right down to it, does very little of the nitty gritty of the forest fire prevention himself. (ok that's a lame example, maybe i'll come up with something better presently).

even if osama was the mastermind, why the blood lust to go kill? were you all gung ho for military intervention against the rural oklahoman areas that spawned the OK city bombers? if not, why not? personally, i think a few b-52 strikes against some (or many) of the smaller prairie hamlets would have been a great idea - after all who knows just how many wacko right-wing sympathizers lurk therein? kill them all before it's too late - that's the patriot thing to do, proof that they're actually guilty of anything be damned!

[buycitgo]

47. excellent points, but sorta beside it here

the blood lust for revenge is strong, even on these boards

not satisfied with destroying Afghanistan, some are still content to see the slaughter to continue on both sides in Iraq

SOMEbody has to keep paying for 911, I guess

doesn't matter who

[buycitgo]

48. dupe

[trumad]

62. Wow... How to respond?

Make no mistake...Osama Bin Laden is a Mastermind terrorist. He leads an organization that is called Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was created by Osama Bin Laden. Al Qaeda was funded by Osama Bin Laden. The Hijackers on 9/11 were members of Al Queda. Al Qaeda and it's senior members were living in Afghanistan with the blessing of the Taliban. America, the country that was attacked on 9/11 decided to go after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Why..Because the Taliban who controlled Afghanistan was harboring the Mastermind of Al Queda and the Masterminds Lieutenants.

Initially we did a very good job of disrupting Al Qaeda and capturing Al Qaeda members. Initially! But...Bush and his merry gang of incompetents screwed it up big time.

Now... You may believe that the above is all a myth...but I'll match my proof that it isn't to your prove that it is any day of the week.

BTW: Your straw man regarding OK City is nutty in every way. To debate that would be a total waist of my beautiful mind.

[bobbyboucher]

77. Talk about taking the soup,

geez.

[trumad]

78. The soup?

well come on smart guy... give me your take... I need a really good laugh....

[treepig]

82. come on, do the math

osama had $300,000,000 in the early 1990's (his share of the family fortune).

al qaeda has 100,000 members - financing them for 10 years based on osama's money would provide each with about $300 per year. that's not even enough to feed them, let alone arm and train them. the contention that osama is the fairy godfather behind al qaeda is ludicrous on it's face.


and perhaps a bit of common sense would help here as well. those videotapes of the "terrorist training camps" - what skills were taught there? looked like some standard climb over and under the obstacle drills. those weren't the skills needed by the 9-11 hijackers at all. they needed to be sophisticated and westernized, i.e., to blend in with your typical flying crowd (or strip-joint crowd for that matter). they learned these skills not in buttfuckville, afghanistan but in the boston suburbs, florida, phoenix, san diego, and hamburg. why haven't we unleashed cruise missile volleys against all those places? why aren't there videos of an unkempt jeb bush on the tv stations, after he was captured to make the world a safer place?

simply because afghanistan was there for the taking - and the racists in charge of this country (and who largely populate it) have a huge tolerance/glee when they can directly or vicariously inflict suffering on some "sand n*ggers" - some of us feel differently and object to the imperialist actions of the u.s. military. and don't hold its willing executioners, such as mr. tillman, in very high regard either.

[buycitgo]

83. isn't it East Buttfuck?

or was it West?

don't try using logic, btw

[Djinn]

86. if that's the case

and we KNOW that Osama ordered it, planned it etc - why not take up the Taliban offer of extradition when provided with proof - a reasonable request and one that would have been made by the US if another nation accused one of their citizens of a crime?

Also on the "originally we did a good job" I'm not sure where you get that from - large numbers of those arrested were later found to be unnconnected to any "terror" activities, the country became LESS not more secure, human rights got worst not better and we turned the country over to warlords?

Even IF 9/11 was completely funded and planned by some blokes in caves in Afghanistan - why punish the vast majority of Afghans who had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and never voted for the Taliban?

[buycitgo]

45. talking to me, buddy boy?

would you have served in the German army, just cause you happened to have been born there

ever heard of logic?

and where, exactly did you serve?

if you've fought in any wars since Korea (and that's a stretch), you didn't serve your country. you served the same CRIMINAL forces that are at work in Iraq

[noiretextatique]

51. it's perplexing to me that even some people who don't support the wars

insist that the soldiers fighting them are somehow serving their country. if the war is unjust, how does fighting it serve anyone? that doesn't make me any less committed to bringing the troops home, or any less sad when people die in these wars...including american soldiers. sure...tillman will have his tribute, but i don't consider him a hero. i feel for his family's loss though.

[buycitgo]

53. so do I, but he made a bad choice, one for which he died

hmmmmmmmm, what was it the young John Kerry said so many years ago, about another, equally criminal war?

[noiretextatique]

54. i don't know what kerry said

but i agree with what you are saying :thumbsup:

[buycitgo]

56. here

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam – How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

[noiretextatique]

57. thanks...i agree with kerry too

and as i asked someone above: how does this "serve" america and americans? it seems only to serve the lust for blood and revenge some are so intent on sacrificing our young people to. there is no honor in that.

[buycitgo]

58. and I think that's about all one needs to say on this topic`

it's been run into the ground many times, by those more eloquent/well sourced than I, and nobody's mind has been/will be changed, I don't think

at least people can apply some logical consistency

WHEN is it morally acceptable to invade another country?

are those agents of said invasion acting in the invading nation's best interests?

where do the obligations of said agents, as well as that nation's citizens lie?

were those in Germany who opposed Hitler traitors?

[rinsd]

64. Is Kerry a criminal?

He volunteered and had 15 kills in a war you have determined to be criminal. Bush did everything he could to not go.

Your logic dictates that your mind must now explode.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Djinn]

88. ah who called Tillman a criminal?

[rinsd]

92. Uhhh Buycitgo.....

He stated anyone particiapting in wars post WW2 was/is a criminal participating in criminal endeavors.

[Djinn]

93. Buycito said

that anyone serving in those wars was serving CRIMINAL forces - as opposed to serving ones country and that "they are instruments of a criminal foreign" presumably mentioning instruments implies they are being USED (sorry if I'm putting words into your mouth Bucito - just how I read your posts) You're exagerrating what he/she said

[buycitgo]

95. thanks.....saw this after I posted a response

you got it exactly right

there's the implicit link to criminality

what I did say is that he made a choice to sign up

bad choice for him

[buycitgo]

94. so, you're putting words in my mouth, aren't you?

post 34 says he was serving in a criminal enterprise

you can make the implicit connection

but be honest enough to link to what I actually said

thanks for your kind consideration

[Swede]

50. I couldn't agree more.

Remember someone had to fight the Nazis.

[buycitgo]

52. and who are the invaders now?

your logic is inverted here, you realize, don't you?

would you just welcome us in if you lived in Iraq?

you're on both sides of the argument here, don't you get it?

Saddam didn't invade us; he posed no threat to anyone but his own people, and the BFEE KNEW that very well.

they didn't even have a serviceable air force

jesus

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. I served too, but you're going waaay too far with this thing....

...IMHO, Tillman is NOT a hero...he volunteered based on the false information created by the NeoCons. And he died as a result of friendly fire...where is the heroism in that?

Tens of thousands of people have died in the Middle East, and I would be willing to bet that 90-95% were people that just happened to be living in the wrong region at the wrong time in history. Are their deaths any less or more important than the deaths of any other human being?

While I also don't agree with the characterization of the vast majority of our troops as Nazis, I am a complete loss to describe the behavior of our people that ran the prison systems in Afghanistan and Iraq. If that wasn't Nazi-like behavior, then the 30 years I've spent studying WWII has ill-spent. I am also at a complete loss to explain the behavior of the NeoCons...how that group got as far as it has is beyond my comprehension.

[Rebellious Republican]

76. I served three, trumad and Media_Lies_Daily ,fellow vets here is a

viewpoint that maybe both of you can both agree with. First, lets look at the definition of "Hero"..........

Each man is a hero and oracle to somebody. --Emerson.

he·ro ( P )
n. pl. he·roes
1.In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
2.A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
3.A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.
4.The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

I guess that we can at least say that to somebody, Tillman is a hero. Tillman was also a professional football player, so we can also agree that he was a Celebrity, lets look at that as well....

ce·leb·ri·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-lbr-t)
n. pl. ce·leb·ri·ties
A famous person.
Renown; fame.



ce·lebri·ty·hood n.

Synonyms: celebrity, hero, luminary, name, notable, personage
These nouns refer to a widely known person: a social celebrity; the heroes of science; a theatrical luminary; a big name in sports; a notable of the concert stage; a personage in the field of philosophy.

As a result of his celebrity status, naturally he would be in the spot light. Since this whole thing started over his being honored on a sports show by a group of his peers. It is probably safe to assume that his peers what to honor one of there own. Just like we would honor say some college kid DUers that would have gone to a protest at say Kent State University in Ohio to protest the war and were shot and killed as a result of their volunteer actions. We here at DU would likely refer to them as hero's. You can also bet that some freepers would call them a bunch of stupid fucks for going there. We can also take Max Cleland as a for instance, we know that Max lost three limbs in Vietnam. The way he lost them, would not be considered by some as heroic. Still many of us, me included consider him a hero. He was in country, he saw a hand grenade rolling around and bent over and picked it up and it exploded. Just the fact that he was in Vietnam says something about his character. He did not pursue 5 draft deferments for college, to keep from going. He was not flying around the friendly skies of Texas or campaigning for one of his fathers buddies. If he had been doing anyone of these things he would still have all of his limbs. However there are people that would try to smear his honorable service and call him any thing but a hero.
Now I would like to end by saying that I read both of your posts often and have great respect for both of your opinions. Both of you have taught me well how to be a good Democrat! So whats the point of flaming each other over something that has no real meaning in the bigger scheme of things. My apologies for butting in, I just happen to like you both.

[FredScuttle]

70. "long-standing involvement in violent behavior"

I love this meme from all you zealots that have the gall to piss on Tillman's grave. I don't think he's a hero, but to smear a dead soldier is beneath contempt.

So, what is your definition of Tillman's "long standing involvement in violent behavior"??? Is it because he played football? By that logic, I can say that Garo Yepremian had a long standing involvement in violent behavior. Ridiculous

[buycitgo]

72. so you support this war?

which other ones?

[FredScuttle]

73. where did you read that?

I don't see how my outrage over zealots in this board smearing Pat Tillman equates to support for *'s invasion. It's a free country, though....for now. Draw your own conclusions as you see fit.

You don't have to support the war to support the troops that have to fight it.

on edit: Oh yeah....feel free to keep ignoring my question about how one can justify saying Tillman had a "long standing involvement in violent behavior"

[buycitgo]

74. wake up........I didn't say anything about Tillman's violent world

and you're using the good german defense with your support for the troops, don't you see?

who's carrying out the CRIMINAL orders?

huh?

they should STOP fighting

they are NOT protecting you or me

they're making it much WORSE

and forever

or at least until we wise up and get rid of organized religion

do you pay any attention at all to what's going on in the Muslim world?

EDIT: I was asking a question about your support for the war

if you employ any kind of logic, how does one support the perpetrators of any illegal act?

if someone plans a bank robbery, do you only prosecute the planners, not the robbers

jesus

quit being such an unthinking jingoist

ha

[FredScuttle]

75. you replied to my post castigating those who smear Tillman

and, instead of addressing the point I raised (that is, how can anyone justify saying this man had a long standing involvement in violent behavior), you chose to accuse me of being a war supporter.

THAT is why I repeated my request for justification for a smear like this.

As for supporting the troops being the "good German" defense, you are sorely, sorely wrong. Our point should be to throw out the criminals and warmongers who are perpetrating this fraud of a "war", not to smear the brave men and women who are thanklessly put in harm's way by these monsters. I'd ask you to consider our fellow DU'ers who have loved ones in service in Iraq and Afghanistan before you throw out comparisons of them to Nazis. Not pleasant.

You seem to be committed, so little I say will sway you. Fine. We'll agree to disagree. I just get testy when I see ugliness attributed to a man who can no longer defend himself for no reason other than to make a political point...reminds me of a Repuke standard operating procedure

[buycitgo]

79. I didn't accuse you; interpret it any way you want

you didn't ask ME about tillman's violent world; why should I reply to that?

you haven't replied to my other responses, either, so get off your high horse



and you sure like to play the violin, don't you? pretty lame on the handwringing, emotional appeal level. did you use that in frosh forensics?

so what if people here have loved ones over there; it;s their choiced. they don't have to stay. I know people who went to prison, rather than participate in an illegal war.

get real; soldiers are under obligation to disobey illegal orders

all I ever said about Tillman, as well, is that he made his choice, it was wrong, and he died for it. had he been protecting me from something real, I'd say more. he's just one of, oh, say a thousand others, not to mention the thousands of Iraqis/Afghans murdered

so stop trying to put words in my mouth

that said, I apologize for reacting as I do, cause, as I said earlier, my father almost got killed fighting other nazis, and he apparently fought in vain, cause they're in the saddle now, spreading their vileness across the world

long as you're against the creatures that have brought this plague upon the world, I can live with that

I don't see these soldiers as heroes, that's all

they are NOT acting in the best interests of anyone but those in power here AND those who support Osama/AQ, etc.

peace

[buycitgo]

80. so, I calmed down after finishing that last

but might as well leave what I posted

still mean it, but hold no ill will toward you, or anyone that wants regime change

sorry

[FredScuttle]

85. No hard feelings

We're on the same "team" - KICK THAT MORON OUT!

BTW, no one's asking you to consider all soldiers heroes...I certainly don't. I just feel their sacrifice (so eloquently expressed in F 9/11) deserves a modicum of respect.

Thanks

[buycitgo]

81. dupe

[treepig]

84. about the long standing violent behavior

from the "Pat Tillman Memorial" website (i.e.,this is what his fans are proud of):

http://www.chrisvalentines.com/projects/ptpage.html

quote:

Pat Jr. grew into a ferocious high school football player who could intimidate with size, speed and attitude. Unfortunately he often did the same thing off the field. "People in our town were basically afraid of my brother," says Kevin.

not a pattern? geez, the whole town was afraid of this goon

more:

"If there was trouble, you looked for Pat first," says Beard. "Usually it wasn't serious." One time it was. In the fall of Pat's senior year, he went to the aid of a friend in a fight outside a pizza parlor and, in Pat's words, "beat the s---" out of his friend's assailant, who was in his early 20s. Several weeks after the incident Pat was arrested and charged as a juvenile (he was 17) with felony assault.

hmm, felony assault . . . good thing he was a top football prospect so he got off with a slap on the wrist.

then, he joined the nfl, a rather violent organization where 20% of the employees have records for serious crimes.

seems pretty damn "long standing" to me.

[FredScuttle]

87. This same garbage

was peddled on this board during the Ted Rall contretemps. I don't feel the need to repeat myself, or waste my time responding to someone as thick and hateful as to spend this much time smearing a dead man.

Good luck

[treepig]

89. so i'm the hateful one

am i the one who VOLUNTEERED to join an organization that bombs wedding celebrations?

am i the one who VOLUNTEERED to go supervise the loading of hundreds of people onto cattle trucks, leave them sit in 100-degree heat until most died of suffocation or lack of water?

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/atrocity.htm

am i the one who VOLUNTEERED to go unload the survivors and crush them with tanks or shoot them?

http://www.rawa.org/us-massacre.htm

am i the one who VOLUNTEERED to go assist the airlift of the "real terrorists" out of afghanistan so that the slaughter of the nobodies could continue?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020128fa_FACT

am i the one who VOLUNTEERED to sign up with an organization (i.e., the US GOV't) that was proud of being responsible for untold suffering of the afghan people over the past 25 years ever since carter lured the soviest into the "afghan trap?":

In 1998, Zbigniew Brzezinski, one of the world’s most twisted individuals, gave an interview to the French periodical Le Nouvel Observateur where he boasted about how U.S. intelligence baited the former Soviet Union into invading Afghanistan. “We didn’t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the possibility that they would,” he began. Then, on December 27, 1979, a few days after Russia’s invasion, Brzezinski confided to President Jimmy Carter, “Now we can give the USSR its Vietnam.” He continued, “The secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you want me to regret it?” Finally, when asked about the blowback collateral damage of initiating such a covert operation, Brzezinski snapped, “What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire?”

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/TheLongRoadToIraqByVictorThorn.htm

the consequence of the soviet invasion - quite predicably - was incredibly misery on the part of the afghan people, and 20+ years later on the part of new yorkers due to the blowback effects. in a sane world the iniator of these events would be in a war criminal prison. in our world he's given a nobel peace prize. in a sane world the people who VOLUNTEER to to kill innocent thirdworlder's would be called hateful, in our world those who object to their actions are.

oh well, suppose that's reality.

[Ducks In A Row]

43. After finding out Tillman was killed by "friendly fire"

and had a chance, I'd let everyone know that Tillman was killed for nothing, and that Bush was to blame.

If Bush hadn't pulled the troops and money out of Afghanistan, the troops there wouldn't have been so stretched thin, and overly tired. Mistakes like there would have been less likely to happen.

Hell, if Bush had finished what he started, bin Laden would have been caught and Tillman wouldn't have even been there.

I think the best tribute would be to make sure the truth coming out and kicking Bush out for causing Tillman to be unnecessarily killed.

[Chili]

90. only addressing the article itself here...

...according to NewsMeat.com (I got that link from a thread here), Tom Cruise has consistently and exclusively given to Democratic causes. I don't know why the columnist expects Cruise to be pro-war...? Has he made comments to that effect?

Anyway, here's the link to his contributions:

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=CA&last=Cruise&first=Tom

edit: Never mind, I found an article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2282774.stm

...but then he backed off of that:

http://extratv.warnerbros.com/dailynews/extra/10_02/10_07a.html

Wonder what he thinks now.

[buycitgo]

97. what;s the deal with deleted messages?

I had disagreement with somebody up there who called me an ahole

my posts, with nothing untoward in them, were also deleted.

how come?