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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 09:56 AM
Original message
Townsend Disallowed "Won't Get Fooled Again" for F9/11

"Keep On Rockin' In the Free World" is a better song anyway.

(The last time Michael Moore used "Won't Get Fooled Again," it was the title of an infamous piece he wrote arguing in favor of voting for Ralph Nader despite the "Supreme Court argument" in favor of Gore, which Moore belittled as a scare tactic.)

http://www.salon.com/ent/col/fix/2004/07/13/tues/index.html


Morning Briefing:
Who's fooling who? Pete Townshend is lashing out at Michael Moore after the filmmaker announced to the press that the rocker refused to allow his song "Won't Get Fooled Again" to be used in "Fahrenheit 9/11." "When first approached, I knew nothing about the content of his film 'Fahrenheit 9/11,' " Townshend wrote in a note posted on his Web site. "I had not really been convinced by 'Bowling for Columbine,' and had been worried about its accuracy . . . Once I had an idea what the film was about, I was 90 percent certain my song was not right for them." What's more, he says, "I greatly resent being bullied and slurred by him in interviews just because he didn't get what he wanted from me. It seems to me that this aspect of his nature is not unlike that of the powerful and willful man at the center of his new documentary." (Page Six)

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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Unlike Pete,
Moore won't get fooled again by Nader.

Fool Pete once, shame on Nader, then fool him twice because he's an idiot.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. ...screw Townsend....Neil Young is much more supportive..

...of liberal causes anyway. Hope Neil makes some money from the soundtrack.
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Neil Young supported Ronald Reagan in the '80s. . .

and voiced his support of the Patriot Act in 2001:

"To protect our freedoms," Young said, "it seems we're going to have to relinquish some of our freedoms for a short period of time."


http://www.thetyee.ca/Entertainment/current/Neil+Young.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/neilyoung.html


Of course, he flip flops and now thinks the Patriot Act is wrong because it may become permanent, but really, how much trust can you put in a guy who's so incredibly opportunistic?

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Opportunistic?
Or maybe naive? The lyrics to Rockin in the Free World show that he apparently figured out Reagan was a lying sack of ... anyway he figured it out.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Well the lyrics at least show he figured out Bush I was a lying sack of
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 11:35 AM by bigbillhaywood
(let me help you find the word here) shit-- that's who the song was about. But there is no defense for Neil's support for the Patriot Act. And please no one give me, "but almost everyone voted for it, including Wellstone"-- well they were all dead wrong and cowardly, including Wellstone in this instance.

This Neil Young statement that:

"To protect our freedoms," Young said, "it seems we're going to have to relinquish some of our freedoms for a short period of time."

I wanna know where people get this logic from. I mean, where did anyone get the idea that Al Qaeda was capable of taking away our freedoms? Killing people, sure. But defending our freedoms from Al Qaeda-- what the fuck are they gonna do, invade the US and establish a fascist state? Only we're capable of doing that, no invasion necessary. Neil may be a good songwriter, but he's fucking dumb.

One last point. Is he still a Canadian citizen, and if so, what the fuck is he doing telling the rest of us what freedoms we are obligated to give up?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. lol
Dead wrong? Threatened? I dunno. In Neil's case I suspect a shortage of intellectual capacity is the primary reason. :)

As for him being Canadian, I really don't know. Regardless, he's a has-been and nobody listens to him so who cares? If he were Britney, flapping his ignorant gums might have bothered me more.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. No, he'd rather sell his songs to Car Makers.
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 10:05 AM by Tyler Durden
Happy Jack is being used to sell HUMMERS.

FUCK Peter Townshend. Self-Deafened asshole. Stood in front of 10' speakers for 30 years and then smashed $1000 guitars and God knows how many thousands of dollars worth of amplifiers. Smart Guy.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Or the theme song for CSI and
CSI Miami.

BTW, Bush used that some at some of his campaign rallies in 2000, but they probably didn't need to get The Who's permission to do than.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. That was awful
I could not beleive my ears when i first saw that commercial. That and Led Zepp music on a caddy commercial.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. At least Zepp never pretended to have politics. Now the Clash's
"London Calling" being used to peddle Jaguars, that truly is depressing and disgusting. Looks like "Death or Glory" became a song of self-fulfilling prophecy for the Clash:

"I believe in this, and it's been tested by research.
He who fucks nuns, will later join the church."
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. go look at more kiddie porn there Pete
jerk
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SunDrop23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yep
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. Bullied And Slurred?
What did he say? I would have never even heard about his being "bullied and slurred" if Pete hadn't brought it up!

I LOVED Keep On Rockin' In The Free World!
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DrWho Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Neil Young
Neil Young is better anyway.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. That song may be, but there is no way you can measure up Neil Young
to Townshend during The Who years.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. It's clearly a matter of taste.
The Kids are All Right, but Hey Hey, My My...
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
24. moore and townshend
The facts are that Moore started things off by giving an interview in which he claimed that Townshend wouldn't authorize the use of Won't Get Fooled Again because Townshend "supports the war and supports Tony Blair and doesn't want the song used in any way that would make Blair look bad." He went on to state that Townshend subsequently changed his mind and offered the song's use but that it was after Moore had already decided to use Rockin' in the Free World, which he felt fit the ending of the movie more than WGFA anyway.

Pete responded with his side of the story, which included an acknowledgement that he had initially supported the war but now,like millions of others, doubted it was the right thing. He explained that the initial request to use the song was turned down on financial grounds without his being involved at all. When asked to reconsider, he expressed a desire to see a rough cut of the movie, but apparently it was too late. In any event, Townshend and Moore actually agree on the more substantive point that WGFA isn't the best song for Moore's purposes since its basically a condemnation of all politicians.

From my perspective, Townshend had every right to feel like he was being slurred by the suggestion that he was withholding the song because of his position on the war or Tony Blair. But each person is free to reach their own judgment. I just suggest you read the actual statements (which are reposted below). And for those of you who want to attack Townshend because he was accused -- wrongly it turns out -- of being a pedophile -- well, you're living up to the best freeper model of speaking without bothering to know the facts and, at the same time, sadly demonstrating the truth of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". I would hope those of us on the left would (a) recognize that, just maybe, the police and authorities don't always get it right and (b) try to differentiate ourselves, rather than emulate, the jerks who we're trying to defeat.

onenote

MOORE ON TOWNSHEND:

"At the end of the film Bush says "Fool me once, shame on... me. I won't get fooled again." Clearly that moment demands that we hear Roger Daltrey scream, "Won't get fooled again!" That's how I had it cut. Pete Townsend blocked it, would not allow the song to be used. Word came to us that he is not a fan of Michael Moore's and in fact supports the war and supports Tony Blair and doesn't want the song used in any way that would make Blair look bad. Harvey personally made an appeal to him to reconsider. And he wouldn't. At that point, we're about a week away from going to Cannes. So, I remembered while I was driving in Michigan "Rockin' in the Free World" came on the radio and I thought this would be a cool song to have in the movie. So we said, "Let's see how this works," and it worked perfectly. Called up Neil Young and he said, "Whatever you need. Absolutely. It's yours." Once we started playing it in the movie, we quickly forgot about The Who. In fact, after Cannes, we got a call from their manager who said they might be willing to reconsider. And I said, "No, uh uh. That's bad karma. This is Neil Young's moment." People leave the theaters, that's what I want them hearing. In fact I don't want them hearing a song that has the line, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Because the new boss I sincerely hope won't be the same as the old boss. I don't want that song. It gave me a chance to have a line at the end too, cause you can't go right into "Rockin' in the Free World." So I get to say "For once I agree with Bush...we won't get fooled again."


TOWNSHEND ON MOORE:

"Michael Moore has been making some claims - mentioning me by name -
which I believe distort the truth.

He says - among other things - that I refused to allow him to use my
song WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN in his latest film, because I support the
war, and that at the last minute I recanted, but he turned me down. I
have never hidden the fact that at the beginning of the war in Iraq I
was a supporter. But now, like millions of others, I am less sure we
did the right thing.

When first approached I knew nothing about the content of his film
FARENHEIT 911. My publisher informed me they had already refused the
use of my song in principle because MIRAMAX the producers offered
well below what the song normally commands for use in a movie. They
asked me if I wanted to ask for more money, I told them no.

Nevertheless, as a result of my refusal to consider the use, Harvey
Weinstein - a good friend of mine, and my manager Bill Curbishley -
interceded personally, explained in more detail to Bill what the
movie was about, and offered to raise the bid very substantially
indeed. This brought the issue directly to me for the first time.
Bill emailed me and told me how keen Harvey and Michael Moore were to
use my song.

At this point I emailed Bill (and he may have passed the essence of
what I said to Harvey Weinstein) that I had not really been convinced
by BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE, and had been worried about its accuracy; it
felt to me like a bullying film. Out of courtesy to Harvey I
suggested that if he and Moore were determined to have me reconsider,
I should at least get a chance to see a copy of the new film. I knew
that with Cannes on the horizon, time was running short for them, and
this might not be possible. I never received a copy of the film to
view. At no time did I ask Moore or Miramax to reconsider anything.
Once I had an idea what the film was about I was 90% certain my song
was not right for them.

I believe that in the same email to my publisher and manager that
contained this request to see the film I pointed out that WGFA is not
an unconditionally anti-war song, or a song for or against
revolution. It actually questions the heart of democracy: we vote
heartily for leaders who we subsequently always seem to find wanting.
(WGFA is a song sung by a fictional character from my 1971 script
called LIFEHOUSE. The character is someone who is frightened by the
slick way in which truth can be twisted by clever politicians and
revolutionaries alike). I suggested in the email that they might use
something by Neil Young, who I knew had written several songs of a
more precise political nature, and is as accessible as I am. Moore
himself takes credit for this idea, and I have no idea whether my
suggestion reached him, but it was the right thing to do.

I have nothing against Michael Moore personally, and I know Roger
Daltrey is a friend and fan of his, but I greatly resent being
bullied and slurred by him in interviews just because he didn't get
what he wanted from me. It seems to me that this aspect of his nature
is not unlike that of the powerful and wilful man at the centre of
his new documentary. I wish him all the best with the movie, which I
know is popular, and which I still haven't seen. But he'll have to
work very, very hard to convince me that a man with a camera is going
to change the world more effectively than a man with a guitar."





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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Pete Is Being A Crybaby, IMO, This Is NOT Bullying!!
If he was dumb enough to support the war & Blair, and if the song was blocked from the movie, from what sounds like money & lack of interest reasons, what's he crying about? Where's the SLUR? Where's the BULLYING? Townsend is the one making a BFD out of it.

Did Moore call him a pedophile? Why doesn't he go after THOSE people?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Thanks
for the info... nice to finally see what all the fuss was about. I can understand why Pete would be mad at having his gullibility re: the Iraq war publicized as current instead of former. However it seems more like a misunderstanding than a case of Moore deliberately misstating Pete's views.
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Stone_Spirits Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. yep, sounds like the whole thing has
been blown far out of proportion.
Everybody loves a 'spat', real or imagined, between celebrities.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. Remind Townshend that people like him would be
thrown into the death camps for being "bi".
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
10. Has *ANYONE* been able to find what Mike said?
If not it seems certain that this has-been is just trying to glom onto Mike for some attention. Go back to obscurity, Pete.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. They'll make up and be friends before it's over with
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 11:36 AM by The Flaming Red Head
They need too.








CRASHING BY DESIGN

Nothing must pass this line
Unless it is well defined
You just have to be resigned
You're crashing by design

You once believed that crazy accidents
were happening to you
You were chasing a capricious wind
Whenever bad luck and trouble
happened to pursue you
The dice would surely save your skin
But when you look back you must realize
That nothing in your life's divine
Everything that's ever befallen you
Happened simply 'cause it crossed your mind
You're crashing by design

Nothing must pass this line
Unless it is well defined
You just have to be resigned
You're crashing by design

In your single-roomed flat in a courtyard building
You sit alone just like a broken toy
Where's your mother, where's your lover
and where are the children
Are you a man or still a boy?
Who left you behind, or did you run
From the crush of so many options?
Now you know the special despair of the man
Discussed, debated and offered for adoption

Nothing must pass this line
Unless it is well defined
You just have to be resigned


Another man without a woman
Dropped like a tool no longer required
A man who longs for the stifling
Milk flowered bosom, a fool
who's no longer desired

Another man without a woman
Too many rages have cost you this time
Another man among a hundred children
You're just a child who is lost in time

You're crashing by design
You're crashing by design
I't all happens by design
I't all happens by design
You're crashing by design

I't all happens by design
I't all happens by design
You're crashing by design
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. I've seen F-9/11 three times, and my heart races ...
when the thumping strains of this fabulous song begin at the end. "People sleepin' in their shoes ..." OMG. Too perfect for words.

"Rockin' In The Free World" by Neil Young

There's colors on the street
Red, white and blue
People shufflin' their feet
People sleepin' in their shoes
But there's a warnin' sign
on the road ahead
There's a lot of people sayin'
we'd be better off dead
Don't feel like Satan,
but I am to them
So I try to forget it,
any way I can.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

I see a woman in the night
With a baby in her hand
Under an old street light
Near a garbage can
Now she puts the kid away,
and she's gone to get a hit
She hates her life,
and what she's done to it
There's one more kid
that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love,
never get to be cool.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

We got a thousand points of light
For the homeless man
We got a kinder, gentler,
Machine gun hand
We got department stores
and toilet paper
Got styrofoam boxes
for the ozone layer
Got a man of the people,
says keep hope alive
Got fuel to burn,
got roads to drive.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.


< www.azlyrics.com >







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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. yes I Agree It Was A PERFECT End Song...GREAT SONG!
I don't HATE Townshend but I LOVE Neil!

And Pete's being a big crybaby!!
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. Jeebus, there are some Townshend haters here at DU.
Relax. He's just a musician/songwriter. If he doesn't want to have his music in a political movie he shouldn't have to.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. um, he's a child pornographer
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. no no no no no
That was "research"

:puke:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Can't edit, but I take that back
Pete was unfairly charged. I wish good news was as well-publicized as bad.

Sad since it seems he might have been a victim as well.

:(
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Was he convicted in a court of law?
Besides, the issue is the use of his music, not his alleged c.p.
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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Leave Pete Alone
If you can tell by my ID, I'm a bit of a Who Freak! Pete's written some great songs over the years, and to this day, The Who are absolutely the most amazing live show I have ever seen.

That being said, Pete has a right to protect his copyrighted material. Anyone dumb enough to take political advice, or get their political leanings from Pete Townsend might as well vote Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp) for Governor of CA, or Mike Ditka as a US Senator.....errrrr, that might be a bad analogy.

Peace

"after 911, the American people were like a drunk sorority girl at spring break...now, they are finally beginning to realize who they slept with" - Me

I feel in my heart that we will throw these losers out on their ears in November, and that the neo-cons will NEVER recover.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. No he was not
He was found innocent.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. from what I understand this
was also another Ashcroftian witch hunt and smear.
found innocent, not convicted
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Definitely a smear - he was trying to get help from police BEFORE
he even visited the site. He was trying to help some organizations, apparently, but his vigilante method backfired.

Sad sad sad.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. yes that is what I have read also
a witch hunt sounds like a good description.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
38. Yeah and Scott Ritter is a statutory rapist....
:eyes:

Step over a political line and you're guilty, even if you're not.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
32. some people at the theatre yelled when the volume was turned down
They stayed for the credits so they could hear the rest of the song.
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LeftyDonkey Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. Wrong Song
I am a huge fan of Pete and The Who, but that song strikes the wrong chord for F9/11. "Won't Get Fooled Again" is an apolitical song which argues that revolutions and the like rarely change anything. Pete is right that his song would not be suited for Moore's film. This would be readily apparent to anyone who bothered to read the lyrics or listen to the whole song (not just the chorus).
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Yes, and Pete has always been reluctant to lend the song for
political uses. I guess these Pete haters here have never read the words. They probably think the song Baba O'Riley is really called "Teenage Wasteland." Cretins.
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LeftyDonkey Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. We of course
know better :)
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
36. I guess the check cleared
and with the righties so desperate for anything that detracts from the impact of the film, it must of been a nice fat one.

C'mon, Page Six?
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. Dirty pool by Moore
There was no need to disclose what Townsend did except to embarass him. Petty bullshit.


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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
42. didn't they find a bunch of kiddie porn on Pete's computer?
Just trying to remember ....
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. NO, they didn't find any kiddie porn on Townshend's computer.
Perhaps you should have read some of the other threads before you chimed in with that load of b.s.

The topic was whether Townshend should let Moore use a Who song in the movie.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. Ten Years After's "I'd Love To Change The World"...
...gave me goosebumps in F911.


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