Do you find DU to be anti-Catholic?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

[taxidriver]

1. i find it to be pro-agnostic

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. I find it pro-Separation of Church and State

Which is a platform many have tried to discredit as anti-<insert religion here>

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Yep, pro-separation is the way to go.

[CaTeacher]

there seem to be many here who

have a negative feeling about Christianity, particularly Catholicism.

I do not see as much negativism toward non-christian faiths, and I think the Catholic church gets the most criticism,

however--the Catholic church is large, political, and they do put themselves out there for criticism. I am not very religious, and was raised in an off-beat Protestant sect (I have had nothing to do with any religion since I was about 20).

I personally think the Catholic church does a lot of good in the world--and that there is more to the church than the anti-abortion stance. I also (even though I am not a religious person) know many many good religious people and have great respect for them.

It annoys me when people act like Christians are automatically bad people. Yes some are liars crooks and con-men, but every group of people has good and bad.

[SpyvsSpy]

40. Kennedy

is pro-choice but Catholic.


I don't think it matters much

[GreenPartyVoter]

58. Welcome to DU :^D You are so right!

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[aden_nak]

4. Depends on your terms.

If you mean "Catholic" as a religious preference, then no. If you mean "Catholic" as an organized institution of churches which continually attempts to affect American politics by aiding in the election of Republican, right wing candidates, then yes.

[Endangered Specie]

5. It definetly isnt pro-Passion Of The Christ

(if you know which Lounge thread Im referring too)

In all seriousness, alot of DUers are very critical of the church government and clergy (which is kind of justifed, all things considered).

edit: spelling

[porphyrian]

10. Right, but not specifically the Catholic church alone.

They just happen to have the oldest and most established heirarchical structure in place. I've personally bashed southern Baptists at least as much as the Catholic church, neither of which I agree with as far as policy is concerned. Most of the people I've met who are Catholic I have no problems with.

[ugarte]

6. I'm a Catholic

DU'ers have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church, as do I, but I believe in change from within. There are millions of good progressive Catholics, and we cannot leave the church to the right-wingers.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. Agreed!

:toast:

[Susang]

7. No, I don't

There seem to be plenty of Catholics here on DU who are quite active. Remember, honest criticism, debate and discussion does not mean "anti".

BTW, just for full disclosure, I am a former Catholic. :-)

[LittleApple81]

8. I don't like ANY religion that has been created and organized by men

to push for their own hierarchy and control. Catholics are not an exception but part of the rule. I don't want to eliminate them, but I don't want to be indoctrinated or have MY life dominated by their rules.

[RandomKoolzip]

16. Catholics don't do much indoctrinating.

There are few evangelical catholics I know of. The indoctrinators are usually christians and baptists....fundamentalists, ya know.


In Chavez's defense, I'd like to say that the Catholics I know personally are great people who leave there religion out of their personal friendships and don't try to convert you. Being a guy with a STRONG antipathy towards any religion, organized or not, I find it refreshing that you can't tell if a person is a Catholic without asking him/her, unlike the evangelical breed of nose-bleeding Christian fundies I met every day when I lived in Nashville.

I do not like organized religion and feel that it has been the root cause of most of the destructive acts of humanity since the dawn of time, but I feel there's bigger fish to fry right now than the Catholic Church.

[TeacherCreature]

19. not catholics, Christians and Baptists?

Ummmmm.... Catholics are Christians and so are baptists.

[RandomKoolzip]

25. My point is this:

They don't act like it and that's a good thing.

[TeacherCreature]

43. your point is a little off

I am a Christian, a liberal one. I don't believe in the death penalty, I am pro-choice and I think everyone should follow their own belief system as long as they don't hurt anyone. I am not a catholic christian. I am a congregationalist christian. I am how a christian acts.
Catholics are also christians and that is also how christians act.

[RandomKoolzip]

53. Have you ever been to Nashville?

I never ran into a Christian like you there. The ones I knew assured me that I was a hell-bound Communist for not bowing down before Jesus. A few coworkers refused to talk to me after I told them I was an atheist. My experiences interacting with FUNDAMENTALIST christians (please note emphasis) has been overwhelmingly negative.

I know liberal Christians exist because of numerous DU posts like yours. However, I lived in New Orleans for six years and Nashville for five, and I know how conservative Christian fundamentalists act....and it ain't pretty.

As for the distictions between Catholics and Christians, I still maintain that my own personal dealings with Catholics have been unstained by the evangelism practiced by fundies I knew.

Seriously, my fucking DENTIST tried to convert me to Christianity in Nashville once, while I was in the damn chair with an air tube in my mouth! This shit happens!

If I don't get the semantics right, I'm sorry. I'm a life long atheist, brought up in an atheist family. I'm not well-studied on the terms you all use.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

63. He's a life long Zappa-tista too so take his posts with a grain of salt

Stupid Zappa!

[TeacherCreature]

65. I know there are Christians like me in Nashville

They are busy doing other things besides sticking their noses in your private business. They are not announcing in every conversation what their religious affiliations are. You have probably met and talked to many of them and never knew it.

[RandomKoolzip]

70. Well....obviously.

But the long-nosed ones sure did make their presence known.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. I like "nose-bleeding Christian fundies" - that's a good one

I find alot of people here love to say that the vatican is the most evil institution ever and leave it at that.

They don't fill their chalices with the blood of some false god but with quality alcohol!

Sorry for the Anton Lavey quote
:evilgrin:

[RandomKoolzip]

33. Actually, that quote is...

from the head of the Satanic Church in New Haven, Paul Valentine.


I don't believe that The Vatican is the most evil institution ever; I believ that distinction goes to the Cato Institute. (Have you read "The Republican Noise MAchine" by David Brock yet? You must.)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

35. I am so sorry mister unholier than thou

Sheesh!

Either way Jayne Mansfield's still dead!

[RandomKoolzip]

39. Do you have a link?

I'm not buying this "Mansfield's Dead" strawman argument.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. Mansfield is inside your head, man. He's in your eye - in the dragon's eye

he's watching the snakes devour your soul, man! You can't kill him because you're already dead, man........oh wait that's ManSON.

Never mind - you're right

[RandomKoolzip]

56. Jane Mansfield took your children to her garbage dump and she fed 'em!

Your children...these children who come at you with knives.....SHE didn't write the music! It speaks to you every day, but you're too deaf to listen! It says "KILL!!" It says "RISE!" Jane Mansfield isn't the lawbreaker...she's the lawMAKER. And she had a great rack.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

57. You ain't kiddin'!

[LittleApple81]

24. Sorry to disagree. When I was in high school (nuns school) we had

to bring stuff to sell at recess and give it to the nuns for "the missions." (This was in Latin America). They might not be as effective as other denominations, but the whole of Latin America did not become Catholic by osmosis.

[RandomKoolzip]

29. Of course, I'm convieniently forgetting the crusades as well.

I'm speaking only of my own personal experience and the contrast I witnessed between the Catholic kids I grew up with and the Fundy Xian adults I co-existed with in Nashville.. One group was far more adult about their religion than the other.

I'm AGAINST all religions, but tolerant of the ones which haven't tried to convert me (i.e. Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaim mainly.)

When I was growing up, I had an uncle who was rabidly Jevovah's Witness. Something like that will turn you off to religion forever. Again, I'm speaking only of my own personal views.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

34. You sho' 'bou dat?

?

[RandomKoolzip]

36. Mr. Body massage machine.....GO!

[kentuck]

9. No. Sometimes I find DU to be anti-intellectual...

They jump at gossip but sometimes ignore important threads...just my opinion. And not just my threads...:)

[LittleApple81]

28. Many times the "I peeed on ", "I shouted at.." posts get hundreds

of posts and some well thought out posts go with 0. But in general if you are interested in "higher-level" posts you can be selective and give your "patronage" to those.
I also notice that PEOPLE LOVE FLAMEBAIT POSTS. It is amazing how long some of those survive, like big clumps of grapes with hundreds of posts.

[DarkHorse]

11. Most discussion boards are ...

Most discussion boards that I have been to are anti-Catholic.
Some are anti-Christian in general. Some have anti-fundamentalist
Christians on them. I am an anti-fundamentalist-Christian bigot.
I admit that proudly. However, I do not hate the Catholic church.
I don't like what some people have done in it, but the vast
majority of Catholics are just dandy.

[noonwitch]

12. There's a difference between anti-catholic and not liking catholicism

Anti-catholic implies an attitude toward catholics as people.
I have no problem with catholics.
I have a serious problem with much of catholicism as a faith.

[TeacherCreature]

17. I have no problem with catholicism

What do I care what other people believe? That is their right.
I do have a problem with catholics being brainwashed on the abortion issue and told they must vote accordingly.

[Bridget Burke]

13. I don't know enough about DU as a whole.

However, every time Catholicism is mentioned, some very old talking points come up.

Disagree with Church doctrine? OK. Find certain policies repellent? Hell, yes. (Although I wish some of the parents of molested children had been less eager to accept a discreet payoff. Reporting illegal activity to the secular authorities is how we get people off the streets.)

But a vocal minority feel free to dig up old grievances that have nothing to do with the Church today. The Inquisition has been out of business for some time now. And the Jesuits are not secret monsters of evil; quite the contrary.

Small-minded, fanatical Puritans helped found the country & their influence is still strong.

[TeacherCreature]

18. Small-minded, fanatical Puritans ...........talk about digging up old

grievances. }(

[Bridget Burke]

38. Yes. But Cotton Mather would approve of some of these posts.

Preaching against the evils of Popery. And this bleak worldview often survives the loss of faith.

[Angelus]

14. I find DU to be Anti-Religion actually.

[RandomKoolzip]

45. I was taught at an early age.....

to distrust any and all religion by my father. As I recall, his exact words were, "religion was invented by the ruling class to satiate the lower classes so that they might not revolt. If you promise the lower classes justice in the afterlife, they'll never fight for it on earth." My father was a wise man; I still view all religion through that same jaundiced eye.

[Red State Rebel]

62. Thats the way I see it too... n/m

[dr.strangelove]

15. I do

I find many of the liberals I am friendly with are anti-catholic, as I would define that term. I would define the term to be one who takes an active position to oppose the teachings of the Catholic Faith when given the opportunity. Certainly not all liberals or progressives are anti-catholics (or anti any religion). However, I think the majority of the DU posts I have read fit that definition.

I call myself a "lapsed catholic." I do not practice a religion presently, however believe the Catholic Church has some very good ideas about loving your neighbor and celebrating life as a group. I enjoy CYO baseball and basketball with my nieces and nephews.

I disagree with some positions of the church, such as Free Choice, homesexual marriage and Physician Assisted Suicide, but on the whole I like the church.

[Az]

21. Telling people that they are going to hell if they don't follow you

Is a pretty sure fire way to irritate some people.

Keep in mind the Catholic church is built upon a very specific notion and has a very specific heirarchy. It believes it is right and any that differ with it are wrong. Categorically wrong. There is no room for questions. In fact they even claim that the Pope when speaking on matters of official church policy is literally infallible.

With all this in play it is not totatlly unexpected that liberal individuals are going to occaisionally bump heads with the Church. It is an oddity of the state of modern society that many American Catholics tend to be far more liberal than the representitives in the Vatican. This causes the Vatican a great deal of consternation. The state of affairs in the US is of very high interest to the Vatican.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. You're quite right. But as a minor correction, Vatican II conceded that

non-believers can go to heaven. Took 'em almost 20000 years though.

[Az]

44. Exactly why they are concerned

The Vatican is very aware of the power of society to effect changes in their own structure. Since the very concept of the Church is based on them posessing the truth they have to be very very careful about how they procede.

In many cases they can make consessions. But occaisionally they find themself pressed between critical defining aspects of their church and the direction society seems to be taking. If there is no direct harm to the doctrine they can take a step back and grant their acknowledgement of a thing.

When the Vatican embraced evolution they did so with the caveat that in the case of humans it was a divine intervention. Evolution exists but humans must remain special creations of god.

Other issues have a more direct impact. The church is very aware that if the social struggle grows strong enough in some arenas it could well pull the Vatican off its foundations. This cannot be allowed. Thus they will often find themself in direct opposition of liberals and even members of their own congregation.

[Susang]

60. A small correction

Vatican II admitted the possibility that non-believers might be allowed to enter the Kingdom of heaven if they did not have access to the gospels and sincerely sought god, drawing on the writings of Pius XII.

This position is also controversial, as the Vatican II was a pastoral council, not dogmatic and some of its reforms have been subsequently contradicted by Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II.

[Az]

72. This was reconfirmed by Pope JPII

It was due to a flap set off by a Cardinal rebutting a Protestant claim. The initiating statement was the although all the abrahamic religions advocated god the one true path to heaven was through the Roman Catholic Church. This set off a bit of a firestorm that forced the pope to state that all are welcome in the kingdom of heaven.

Pope JPII is a very cagey orator. It should be noted that he does not inform the audience how someone can find their way to heaven outside of their church.

[hunter]

32. Causing "the Vatican a great deal of consternation."

:hi: (Waves to Pope)

[Trajan]

22. As a now atheist-EX catholic born into the ample bosum of the church ...

and spoon-fed catechismic theology from the moment I opened my eyes ... I can say this: I appreciate whatever comments counter the catholic church and it's disingenuous speculations over the millenia ...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. Anybody here have any good experiences with the Church?

I converted 2 years ago for love of the faith - I am proud to be Catholic and have had countless great experiences with it. There's got to be some people here who have good things to say about it.

[Quahog]

47. 90% of my experiences with the church have been positive

I too am an adult convert to Catholicism. I received the sacraments thirteen years ago at the age of thirty-one, after having spent much of my adult life on a spiritual and intellectual quest that took me to the far corners of the planet and immersed me in a huge varitey of cultures. I had long felt God hovering over my shoulder, but it took me a lot of years to figure out what it was that I was supposed to do about His presence in my life. I am very happy with my long-considered decision, and very involved with my parish and in living my faith. I am a questioning Catholic of the church militant tradition, and I sometimes think I can see our priests cringe visibly when they see me coming with that look on my face. I do not agree with 100% of church doctrine. A life of faith has been, for me, far more difficult than a life of drifting about without a specific spiritual direction. I work hard at my faith, and I pray that the life I lead as a result of that work serves as an example to some who might need one. I do not evangelize, ever. But I will defend my faith when challenged to do so.

I have yet to meet a fundie neo-con Catholic. Maybe I'm just lucky. Yes, many Catholics have a very staunch position on abortion rights, but even those that I know are not single-issue voters. I know no Catholics who support Bush... again, maybe I'm just lucky. As I have stated a seemingly infinite number of times in Catholic-bashing threads on DU, look at the voting records of the most Catholic states (RI and MA). Do these look like politically conservative states to anyone?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

52. Quahog - I admire your posts in these threads. What you speak of sounds

very familiar to me. Its nice to hear from you.

:)

[hunter]

26. If I get kicked out of the Catholic Church or DU then it will matter...

But I mostly try to stay out of the Catholic bashing threads. I save that energy for letters to the Bishop and trying to figure out which parts of the Catholic Church get my money.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

31. There you go. I go to a church run by a holy order. I do not give at

diocesan churches.

[DaveSZ]

37. I find DU to be anti-Catholic Church hypocrisy

I do not find DU to be anti-Catholic in terms of being against individual Catholics.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. My practicing Catholic wife is a helluva lot more anti-Catholic

then most people here. She attends Mass every Sunday and believes strongly, but she also vehemently disagrees with the Church's stance on such things as abortion, homosexuality, birth control, etc.

I'm an ex-Catholic (never was a "good" Catholic) and find her more critical of the Church than I am.

Sort of like some lifelong Democrats (like me) who remain in the party but are highly critical of some of the stances of the party.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

48. That's the way my fiance and myself are

Absolutely!

[dissention]

42. Well...

I'm an Enemy of the Cross, so it doesn't matter. :D

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

49. um....what?

[merh]

50. Religion and faith are two (2) entirely different things.

Most on DU appear to be anti-religion, though their posts reflect deep faith and/or spirituality.

Even the atheist appear to believe strongly in their anti-god/no-god positions. Thus their faith is strong.

This is a board full of varied opinions and beliefs of some very strong minded, out spoken individuals.

I find it a very interesting and entertaining forum. The minds that post here are wonderful. Just because someone disagrees with me does not make that person wrong or evil. It just means we disagree. I am not always right, I just think I am.

[Rowdyboy]

51. 2/3 majority here are either atheists or agnostics

1/3 profess some branch of Christianity. A small group of the majority HATE Christianity and feel it important to denigrate it at every opportunity. I've never seen anyone proselytizing FOR Christianity here, ever.

I. personally, have no interest in persuading anyone of the correctness of my faith, nor am I impressed by those who feel compelled to insult those who believe differently from them.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

54. Are these official figures?

Just wondering how you know that cause its interesting.

[Rowdyboy]

64. Nothing official at all...Just various polls that have been run here

They pretty consistently have the same result. 1/3 Christian/Jewish, 1/3 atheist, and 1/3 agnostic/other. And thats just my memory, which is notoriously poor. I run a new one, just for the sake of it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1984316

[drdigi420]

55. I find it to be pro-intellectual adn anti-dogma

which comes across as anti-religion alot because most religions are not compatible with free thinking.

[RandomKoolzip]

59. Josh: the thinker closest to the way I feel about spirituality is Camus.

I find a gentle existentialism is the shiniest path.

from the Camus Primer:


"For Camus, the absurd was not negative, not a synonym for "ridiculous," but the true state of existence. Accepting the view that life is absurd is to embrace a "realistic" view of life: the absence of universal logic. This approach to philosophy is more radical than Nietzsche's "God is dead." One might rephrase Camus' absurdism as "God? No thanks… I'm on my own."

Many mistakenly believe Camus saw no meaning in life; even Camus and Nietzsche seek "meaning" in life, but not in manners familiar to most. For Camus, meaning was in the human experience. Absurdity does not render life meaningless -- people have meaning because they interact with each other, while remaining in control of their own destinies. "

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

66. Whatever works for you Brother

As a theist I can go with you only up to a point tho'

If we make it to heaven your face will be red! But the trail mix will be AWESOME!!!

[RandomKoolzip]

68. Trail mix? If there ain't funyuns in Heaven, I ain't goin'!

Here's a great introduction to Camus...if you're curious.

http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/camus.asp

BTW, Funyuns are STILL outselling Responsibiltyuns.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

69. I prefer drudgeryuns!

mmm...tedious

Thanks for the propoganda - soul-stealer!

[RandomKoolzip]

71. All property is theft.

My new favorite food is Bemusedresignatyuns.

"Ah...ennui."

[Swamp Rat]

61. I read the DU rules and regulations and found nothing anti-Catholic.

So, I say "no" to the statement, "Do you find DU to be anti-Catholic?"

[Charlie Brown]

67. Here's what Southern Baptists

think of the Catholic Church.

http://www.namb.net/evangelism/iev/PDF/BB_Roman_Catholicism.pdf

I don't see anything on DU that compares to this POV.