Hersh must've seen the Abu Ghraib videos

[Rose Siding]

...or heard them

snip>
Seymour Hersh says the US government has videotapes of boys being sodomized at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking," the reporter told an ACLU convention last week. Hersh says there was "a massive amount of criminal wrongdoing that was covered up at the highest command out there, and higher." ...

"The disaffecion inside the Pentagon is extremeley accute," Hersh says. He tells the story of an officer telling Rumsfeld how bad things are, and Rummy turning to a ranking general yes-man who reassured him that things are just fine. Says Hersh, "The Secretary of Defense is simply incapable of hearing what he doesn’t want to hear."

The Iraqi insurgency, he says,was operating in 1-to-3 man cells a year ago, now in 10-15 man cells, and despite the harsh questioning, "we still know nothing about them...we have no tactical information.”

http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/002960.html

[Jerseygirltoo]

1. Hersch is a real journalist

I'm looking forward to getting my New Yorker in the mail, maybe he'll have another article in there

[buycitgo]

4. what words are there to describe the depths to which

our government, AND media, have sunk

you can't really blame these criminally insane maniacs for what they do; it's just about imprinted into their genetic code

it's the MEDIA I blame for all this; from Reagan to BushI to Clinton to this cretin and his stringpullers

the ONLY time the media went after a president was during, well, you get the idea

I hold THEM more accountable than I do the fascist party

[maggrwaggr]

6. I'm with you. So what do we do about it?

Seriously. They are protected under "free speech." There's no precedent for suing them for malpractice or false advertising.

They are untouchable and they know it.

It fucking sucks but I'm ready to do something about it, I just don't know what.

[merh]

20. What about the way that Great Britian has their network set up.

The BBC is very keen on fining reporters, journalists that do not report the truth. Faux news was slammed by them last month if I recall correctly.

[suegeo]

58. Didn't the greatest generation...

I read somewhere that the greatest generation tried members of the German press after World War II, during the Nuremberg trials.

Of course, that was after millions of people were dead, and Europe was destroyed, and the atom bomb blew up, a couple of times.

Watching what has happened in this country in the last 10-15 years, I think some members of the press are criminals. And they deserve a trial.

I don't think, however, that they will ever be brought to justice.

Does anybody know what the allies did with crappy journalists at the Nuremberg trials? I am not a student of that part of history.

[Cooley Hurd]

60. Two things we can do...

...is to tell everyone you know to:

-read "Lies: and the Lying Liars..." by Al Franken
-watch "OutFoxed: Murdoch's War on Journalism."

Both do an excellent job on exposing the right-wing propaganda machine...:thumbsup:

[hedda_foil]

2. Hersh: Zarquawi is "a composite figure" hyped by US govt.

From the linked blog: http://radio.weblogs.com/0107946/2004/07/14.html#a1922

He (Hersh) says the foreign element among insurgents is overstated, and that bogeyman Zarqawi is "a composite figure" hyped by our government.

The war, he says, has escalated to "fullscale, increasingly intense military activity."

Hersh described the folks in charge of US policy as neoconservative cultists" who have taken the government over, and show "how fragile our democracy is."

He ripped the supine US press, pledged to bring home all the facts he could, said he was not sure he could deliver all the daming info he suspects about Bush administration responsibility for Abu Ghraib.

[Pastiche423]

14. Now that makes sense

Since (I believe) our 1st bestest boogeyman has been dead for a couple of years and our second bestest boogeyman is in custody, we (they) need a new bestest boogeyman.

[Jerseygirltoo]

15. Funny, I hadn't heard he said that

But that was my suspicion all along. I noticed how everything bad that happens in Iraq now is blamed on Zarqawi, intl man of mystery. He's everywhere at once.

[Joanne98]

50. I know he's like Spiderman

He knows when to flee because he has spidey-sense. :)

[leftchick]

32. idiotface* blamed al-Zarqawi yet again yesterday....

for the murder of the Mosel Governor. If chimpy* says it I know it is a lie. I am glad to see confirmation from Sy.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Right, his name made it's first appearance

...during the suspiciously (conveniently) timed beheading of Nick Berg, which magically managed to totally staunch the flow of Abu Ghriab imagery (including the "far, far worse" stuff that Hersh warned everyone about, that we still haven't seen- and I'm fairly certain we never will) ...anyway, at that time, there were reports that "Zarqawi" was killed 6 months ago, and also apparently has a prosthetic leg, but apparently despite his multiple hadnicaps of being dead and having a prosthetic leg, he showed up in the Berg video, with 2 good legs, and a handy little message attributing the video to him, in case anyone wasn't sure who was "responsible"... Then, of course, all kinds of weird questions started coming up about Nick Berg, the circumstances surrounding his detention by US forces, his "release" and almost immediate "kidnapping", at which point, the coverage (and questions) suddenly ended, and the media stopped talking to Nick Berg's father (who had an uncomfortable tendency to say things like "I Blame Donald Rumsfeld for my son's death") but Zarqawi is still the de facto shadowy man behind the scenes...

[Zen]

3. The longer the children's wing of Abu Ghraib story isn't reported now

the more it's gonna hurt these lying fuckers later when it comes out. I guess they're screwed either way (lol) but if I were them I'd 'fess up now. Strange how little integrity this bunch of thugs has (I guess that's why we are justified in calling them thugs).

[Pachamama]

11. I just hope the story of the children comes out before the Election

I'm convinced at this point that this single truth will be what it finally takes to "outrage" America enough into realizing what is going on with these sick SOB's running our country into the ground (along with the rest of the world while they are at it).

:grr:

[Jerseygirltoo]

16. Me too

Maybe it will be Hersch's October Surprise

[Pachamama]

53. Hopefully Hersch comes out w/ it ALL-Meanwhile today more NEWS..

...referring to the fact that the US didn't account for all detainees...translation: there could be many deaths and "disappearances of tortured people (or people still being tortured and held in unknown locations?)

I want the truth to come out....how dare this administration daily destroy our constitution, attack our civil liberties, destroy our environment, economy and reputation around the world, all while they sit there "lying" and smirking telling the minions that America is safer....

I want this November every single American to have to face the truth about what is going on and take a good hard look in their hearts and minds and vote this fascist administration out....otherwise, let those people have to look themselves in the mirror....


:grr:

[Peachhead22]

5. Streaming video of Hersh

http://stream.realimpact.net/?file=clients/aclu/conf2004/20040707_aclu_AmericaAtACrossroads_300.rm

He comes on at about the 1hr-8min mark and it really gets unsettling about the 1hr-20min mark.

[hlthe2b]

17. I'm watching now.... I streamed much of the ACLU conference

but missed his speech. Dear, God... what would we do without S. Hersch? One of the rare true journalists left...

[reorg]

23. thanks for this link

1:30:54

Some of the worst things that have happened, that you don't know about. Okay, videos, there are women there, some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is Al Garib (?), which is about 30 miles from Bagdad, 30 kilometers maybe, just 20 miles, not sure what it is. Anyway, the women were passing messages out saying please come and kill me, because of what's happened. And basically what happened is those women who were arrested with young boys, children, in cases that have been recorded, the boys were sodomized, and with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of them is the soundtrack with the boys shrieking. That your government has and they were in total terror if it was going to come out. It's impossible to say to yourself how did we get there, who are we, who are these people that sent us there.

[JNelson6563]

37. Thank you for posting link

I am horrified but enlightened. Seems those two words are often paired during these, the Bush II years.

Julie

[JohnnyRingo]

7. I can picture Runsfiend turning to the second officer...

...and asking:

"What did he say ?"

"He said things are great, sir"

"Thats what I thought he said"

[maggrwaggr]

8. wow .......

I don't know what to say.

All I know is that no matter how disturbing, how disgusting, how godawful the tapes are .....

they need to come out.

Americans need to see what's being done in their name, and with their tax dollars.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. I wouldn't hold my breath

for any of that stuff to come out.

They powers that be are counting on the american people's attention span to be so short, that we'll forget that there were thousands more images, implicating god-knows-how-many-other-people...

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

9. Where is the video?

I heard that the Pentagon had most of this material and only allowed the members of the US Congress to view it, but not to take custody of it or of a copy of it. Hopefully, none of this documentation will go the way of Bush's military pay records.

It was also my understanding, however, that Seymour Hersh had his own independent documents, including tapes and photos he received in response to his original breaking story.

One further question I have is how Hersh could have seen the video. Only Congress was allowed to see it. Furthermore, Hersh has been telling us about the child rape video BEFORE the Pentagon announced they had it and allowed members of Congress to view it.

Anyone know anything about this?

[Rose Siding]

12. Hersh has a network of contacts

going back decades. It was reported that the torture pix were on cds all over the prison- there must have been multiple copies of the videos, as well. -just speculating, of course.

I think *some* of these will have to become public. Already, the attitudes about the torture have evolved into 'whew, that's behind us' while I don't see the rest of the world seeing it that way at all.

[ClassWarrior]

10. KEEP THIS THREAD KICKED FOR THE CHILDREN

:kick:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. There was a vote to not explore this further.

Get on the train people!

[CWebster]

39. This is VERY Important

and it flew right under the radar!

The Republicans prevented additional release of documents, the least the Democrats could've done is scream bloody murder to the public.

[thebigidea]

18. I hope Hersh has been careful...

I can see Ashcroft's goons storming into his office, seizing everything, charging him with child porn, treason, and not singing Ashcroft's hymns...

all the charges would be dismissed later, but that could neutralize him for a while... or turn him into a martyr and a PR nightmare.

The sad thing is, you know Rummy & Co. have people working on a "solution" to Seymour Hersh.

[LibertyorDeath]

19. I wonder if Hersch knows more much more

than he's telling.

He seemed to want to say so much More.

He called * & Crashcart War criminals said it went that high
Then seemed to step back from the statement.

Is the New Yorker going to Crucify these Necon Cultists

at just the right time before the Election.

I got that feeling that they are keeping their powder dry & waiting for just the right moment when it will have the most Force & Effect.

I think they already have incontrovertible damning proof of the Horrors committed by shrubs Regime.

They are going to serve it up in such a way that the Corp media can't ignore.

[Beam Me Up]

21. I think you are right.

Hersh has an inside track with intelligence sources at a very high level. He has shown us that repeatedly with information and stories that are true, yet not reported by anyone else. Moreover, it should be clear, that when Hersh says something publicly like this, he isn't doing it solely on his own initiative. He is speaking FOR certain people and he is speaking TOO certain people. He does it in a PUBLIC forum but the real meaning of what is being said is for 'those who have ears to hear'.

We are dealing with a very serious situation here and they know it.

[joanne]

22. Kick

:kick:

[DaveSZ]

25. What can we do?

What can we do to get the press to report on the ABu Graihb child abuse, and especially on Rumsfeld's authorizing it?

They must be propping up Bush since they haven't reported it.

Can't we get Salon.com to at least break it?

[DeepModem Mom]

24. I hope these people someday reap the whirlwind for their evil --

It HURTS to see these things pass without consequence, or retribution.

[DaveSZ]

26. Exactly

If I were Hersh, I'd be worried about Ashcroft's gestapo.

[NightOwwl]

27. This is awful to think about

but I'm sure he has made provisions in case of an untimely accident.

[liveoaktx]

28. Says he is not done reporting on this....

As he says, how much can you levy on Arab manhood? but I hope he exposes this as much as he can

[Obamarama]

29. Wow, I didn't know we had Catholic priests serving in Iraq....

n/t

[Disturbed]

30. Massive Cover-up

The Prison Torture situation is being kept under a tight lid because to expose the system wide torture could bring down the entire US Govt. The Pres., VP, Sec. of Defense, State Dept., CIA, Pentagon and the Military are all guilty of War Crimes. This will be kept under wraps. The photos and videos will never surface unless from private sources.

[Solly Mack]

31. What kind of country sits back and allows this to go unreported?

allows it to go unpunished?
allows it to happen period?

The kind of country that is
self-righteous.hypocritical.arrogant.corrupt.sick.

America is that kind of country.

The guilty play politics while people are tortured.suffer.die.

[Veggie Meathead]

33. One ought to be grateful that we still have real journalists like

Sy Hersh who with his understated moral outrage can have more impact than a thousand airheads on our print and TV media who masquerade as journalists.

[mopaul]

34. raping children is not so bad in the overall context of the war on terror

we are defeating a mighty army of america hating terrorists, so the rape of a few boys here and there is really trivial and inconsequential in the great scheme of things. we need to get our priorities right people.

[Solly Mack]

35. and you know thats exactly how they think

[wellstone_democrat]

40. The sickest thing about that statement MoPaul

is that it is similar to the sort of verbal (and mental) gymnastics I hear on a daily basis here in my "reddest of states". I sarcastically remarked that Bush* could strangle puppies on TV and my good solid-citizen-fine-Christian-American neighbors would explain that either "God has a plan" for that activity or that someone was using "trick photography"

Never underestimate the level of investment in the delusions people have about Bush*. They don't want to know. They really don't. I'm close to giving up because the abuse we do know about has received not much more than "bad apples!" or "stresses of war!" reaction from MY wide circle of acquaintances. And, yes, they do finish up all conversations on horrors like this or the death-toll of soldiers with platitudes of the greater good of eliminating "terra"

The answer to everything here is either:
"you hate America"---if you question or criticize
"they hate America" ---if you raise moral questions about the alleged "war on terror"

[Hoping4Change]

42. Your comment about the level of investment in the delusions

people have about Bush is enlightening. I have never understood Bush's loyal fan club given the blatant facts staring everyone in the face but I now see that these people on a deep pyshcological level don't want to see what they don't want to see. Very interesting indeed.

ps Stayng sane amidst such insanity must try you your nerves, I hope DU provides a mental oassis. As the starman says, Keep looking up!

[eurolefty]

59. nor is rounding up 'shitskins'

Which has been advocated by some nerds.
:mad:

[DemonFighterLives]

36. Additional reading on Abu Ghairb

Hell On Earth by Edward Pound:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=926&e=14&u=/usnews/hellonearth

Snip...
The abuses took place, the files show, in a chaotic and dangerous environment made even more so by the constant pressure from Washington to squeeze intelligence from detainees. Riots, prisoner escapes, shootings, corrupt Iraqi guards, unsanitary conditions, rampant sexual misbehavior, bug-infested food, prisoner beatings and humiliations, and almost-daily mortar shellings from Iraqi insurgents--according to the annex to General Taguba's report, that pretty much sums up life at Abu Ghraib.

---
Sorry, as you know there is not a lot of information in circulation about the child abuse. I have a thread running on another website and the republicans are deriding any mention of these crimes as un-American. Of course fox and rush are not going to tell them. They believe that our leadership and all the way down to the troop level are all puritans.
Thanks for the links and information here! :kick:

[CWebster]

38. the greatest travesty is

there is no one willing to demand accountability with real world consequences. The Democrats seem to be content with letting it erode away at Bush administration credibility if it puts them in the range of winning back the presidency. But they really don't have the cajones to confront the reality that would ultimately be in defense of this country. They would rather just sweep it all under the carpet but gain the political advantage.

[jprog]

41. Face it people...

We're all going to go to hell for this one.

The politicians are a joke and the media is a bigger joke, and the biggest joke is on all of use if we think we can wait for them to do something about it.

It's up to us. It's up to us to continue to fight the system with sites like this one. In horrifying situations like these, we cannot afford to depend on anyone else but ourselves.

[Minstrel Boy]

44. You're absolutely right, jprog.

And welcome :hi:

[Hoping4Change]

49. I agree 100% jprog and I'm glad you're here.

Welcome to DU.:hi:

[LibertyorDeath]

54. jprog Welcome to DU !

Yes indeed "It's up to us"

and truth be known there are MILLIONS of us.

It's just a the moment we do not control

Congress

Senate

SCOTUS

or Corp media but there are millions of good & honest people out there
working in there own way to defeat this Evil.

Sy Hersh is one of them He and the New Yorker have a treat for these
criminal soulless MF. Hersh said as much if you listen carefully.

Yes "It's up to us" Evil wins when good people do nothing.

[AP]

43. After getting so worked up about Kerry & Edwards hugging, how are they

going to play this down?

[bobbieinok]

45. SEE NY Review of Books ... Anthony Lewis

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17230

Volume 51, Number 12 · July 15, 2004
Email to a friend

Feature
Making Torture Legal
By Anthony Lewis
1.
Reading through the memoranda written by Bush administration lawyers on how prisoners of the "war on terror" can be treated is a strange experience. The memos read like the advice of a mob lawyer to a mafia don on how to skirt the law and stay out of prison. Avoiding prosecution is literally a theme of the memoranda. Americans who put physical pressure on captives can escape punishment if they can show that they did not have an "intent" to cause "severe physical or mental pain or suffering." And "a defendant could negate a showing of specific intent...by showing that he had acted in good faith that his conduct would not amount to the acts prohibited by the statute."

These quotations are from a draft report to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld by an ad hoc group of lawyers he chose, mostly political appointees in the Defense and other departments, to advise him on interrogation techniques for prisoners at Guantánamo Bay. The report is dated March 6, 2003; on the title page it says, "Classified by: Secretary Rumsfeld."

Another theme in the memoranda, an even more deeply disturbing one, is that the President can order the torture of prisoners even though it is forbidden by a federal statute and by the international Convention Against Torture, to which the United States is a party.

The idea that presidential power overrides treaties and congressional laws appeared soon after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. John Yoo, a professor at the University of California in Berkeley, was then a deputy assistant attorney general. He wrote several memos in late 2001 and then, in collaboration with Robert J. Delahunty, another Justice Department lawyer, an important paper dated January 9, 2002. It was addressed to the Defense Department's general counsel, William J. Haynes II. "Restricting the President's plenary power over military operations (including the treatment of prisoners)" would be "constitutionally dubious," the memo said.

.....
The Defense Department memorandum of March 2003 incorporated the ideas and much of the language in the Bybee memo. It expressed the idea of impervious presidential power in sweeping terms:

(quote)

In order to respect the President's inherent constitutional authority to manage a military campaign,... (the prohibition against torture) must be construed as inapplicable to interrogations undertaken pursuant to his Commander-in-Chief authority.... Congress may no more regulate the President's ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield.... Any effort by Congress to regulate the interrogation of unlawful combatants would violate the Constitution's sole vesting of the Commander-in-Chief authority in the President.

(end quote)

much more......


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[LibertyorDeath]

55. Bravo to Anthony Lewis

This is Surreal.

The fact that the "the memoranda written by Bush administration lawyers"

has not brought down this Administration is telling of just how far

gone things truly are.

[Mari333]

46. I want all of the truth to come out.

and yet I know that the MPs at Abu Ghraib, right now, many of them, want to come home, including my stepson who is there. When this hits the news, the Arab world will go mad with already boiling anger, and the soldiers at that damned prison will be sitting ducks and targets.
Bring the troops home now.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com
Seymour Hersh is a real journalist.

[Rose Siding]

47. Watch this and take heart

http://stream.realimpact.net/?file=clients/aclu/conf2004/20040707_aclu_AmericaAtACrossroads_300.rm

Neocons are cultists pushing utopia.

'This is the most important election in...well, since 1860'

He watches Jon Stewart

and...THERE'S MORE COMING. He isn't through with this story.

*Today*, we learn that the Senate is going to have further hearings before the break. That kind of visability will give more exposure to whatever Hersh has coming to us.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=8&u=/ap/20040715/ap_on_go_co/prisoner_abuse

[FighttheFuture]

48. Ah, "family values"... Greece, 2000 B.C.!! Of course, even they did ...

not condone rape!! That's the Republican's new twist, thanks to George "anti-christ" Bush.

[TrogL]

51. I just lost my lunch

Give what I know of the local culture, it was inevitable, but I really didn't want confirmation.

[Zolok]

52. Good Ghod is this lunacy ever gonna end?!

I'm gonna have an effin' stroke if this keeps up!
You just know some soldier made himself a tape or two as morbid perverted keepsake...so there is no use in covering any of this up.
Rumsfeld should resign...his bloated ego is an insult to the entire republic.


www.chimeatmidnight.blogspot.com

[deacon]

61. another link...

...to check out

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6430.htm

[mistertrickster]

62. Okay, America, if we let this go, when are we ever going to take a

stand?

The Founders of this country rose up in bloody rebellion over a three penny tax. And we stand idly by while a tyrant tortures and rapes people?

I believe the time has come for major non-violent resistance that could include things like a mass sit in around the White House or a week long general strike about a month before the election.

Or anything else so long as it's legal and doesn't hurt innocent people.