What good will massive protests at the RNC do in NYC?

[bluestateguy]

I'm torn here. I really don't know what to believe about the upcoming protests at the RNC. On the one hand, my level of sheer anger at this Administration and their bootlickers in the media and in Corporate America really makes me hope that the protests in New York will be massive and disruptive.

But those are my emotions speaking. I want to win this election, and that's more important to me than the satisfaction of seeing the protests overshadow the RNC Convention. My fear is that if the protests get out of control for one reason or another, Mr. and Mrs. Wishy Washy Voter sitting at home in Ohio, as these images are gleefully beamed over the TV on Fox News will be inclined to blame Kerry and the Democrats for the disorder. And of course the Republicans will be all to happy to wave the bloody shirt with regard to the "riots" at the RNC Convention, and to demand that Kerry condemn the protesters (thus forcing him to denounce voters who he will need, lest they defect to Nader).

Also, imagine the specter of a bunch of police and firefighters trying to control the demonstrators, a handful of the protesters throw stuff at them, and the propaganda value of such images. I can just see Ed Gillespie now "These police and firefighters have been through so much hardship these last 3 years. Shame on these leftist agitators for attacking them. Senator Kerry should condemn them at once". In any event, the whole thing could produce political consequences for the Kerry campaign. At it must be asked, just what benefit will massive protests serve toward the objective of evicting George W. Bush from the White House. They will be kept far away from the Garden where Baby Bush and his sycophants won't ever see them, much less be able to actually disrupt the proceedings. And all conventions attract protesters, and are usually ignored by the media, unless the numbers are simply astronomical, or there is disorder. I just don't know what there is to be gained here.

[MissAnnThrope]

1. But The Protest Zones Are No Where Near The Garden

Excuse me. Not protest zones. "Free speech" zones. One is as far away as Central Park. No protesters are being allowed near Madison Square Garden. They might send some news crews to the free speech zones. But for the most part, the delegates won't see a single protest.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. I'm torn, too...

although I believe in protests, and have been to my share of them, I have never had the feeling that they ever accomplished much of anything.

There are people alive who remember the labor riots and the Bonus Soldiers. I remember the civil rights marches and the Vietnam protests.

I've come to the conclusion that the the marches and protests are not to sway the minds of those we disagree with-- they won't listen to us and our chants, speeches, and protest songs. They haven't listened to us as constituents or loyal opposition, so why should they listen to a bunch of loud marchers?

No, the protests are to give us a feeling of solidarity. I never marched with King, to my undying regret, but I did protest the war back then. It meant nothing to TPTB, but standing with others I knew I was not alone. Hearing the ranting and raving is one thing, but standing out there surrounded by others who were passionate about the cause is a moving experience.

Protesting Iraq in NYC and DC, we all knew perfectly well that everyone was out of town but the cops on overtime, and that present PTB couldn't possibly care less how many were out there complaining about them. But, there we were-- all ages, races, economic strata and the full diversity that is America. Korean vets with their VFW caps marching beside aging hippies. Society matrons marching beside welfare mothers.

We were America, and we marched for ourselves. The America that will not accept the lies and machinations they are are shoving at us. We left knowing full well that the march itself meant nothing to them, but it meant to us that we were willing to fight to get our country back.

So, protest, and show that we are one.

[ClintonTyree]

3. I too...............

am concerned about the protests. Not so much about our own people, but the inevitable presence of planted right-wing operatives who's only mission there will be to instigate violence. It's been said before on these pages that we must document everything, take movies and still photos of everyone who is instigating violence to mark them as outside agitators. I hope this is enough, these bastards don't play fair and will do anything in their power to give the Dems a black eye on this.

[Bucky]

4. The function of protest is not to sway Republicans, but to remind indies

We are right and they are wrong. It's the equivalent a big stormy temper tantrum. It doesn't directly solve any problem or sway any votes. But it gets the point across and makes the opposition and the fence-sitters rethink their positions.

It registers dissent. It registers the intensity of our dissent. It reminds people on our side of the reality on which our dissent is based. It gets the news media to revisit the horrors of what causes us to protest. It reaffirms the rightness of our cause among all who agree with us. It rallies our base.

Protesting does not solve problems, but it makes solutions possible and it makes trying to solve the problem a greater urgency. If you have feet and free time and the ability to get to NYC this August, please go and make a stink for America.

[G_j]

6. "It registers dissent."

especially in the age of couch potato apathy. For every person who goes through the trouble of making it to a protest there may be a hundred or a thousand who agree with them and wish they could be there but for various reasons cannot.

Something that concerns me is that the powers that be are trying on all fronts to prevent protests from happening, through denial of permits, outlandish statements and other actions meant to generate fear, first amendment zones etc. etc. They will continue to do this and if they feel their tactics are successful it may just get worse. Are we prepared to give up free assembly?

[Mr.Green93]

7. Well said, Bucky.

[T Town Jake]

8. I have two words for you:

...Chicago, 1968. What was meant as a way to "reaffirm" the "rightness" of the anti-Vietnam War cause turned into one big Nixon Rally - most of "middle America" watching on the TV screens where repelled by the images of "hippies" assaulting Chicago's finest, and voted accordingly for either Nixon or George Wallace (!) later that fall. It ultimately doomed the electoral chances of the Democratic nominee, V.P. Hubert Humphrey.
I would urge all of those whom intend to head to NYC for the Republican National Convention to bear that in mind...and keep their legitimate protests as peaceful as is humanly possible. The Whole World will, after all, be watching...and so will those critical swing voters in Ohio, Missouri, & Florida....

[G_j]

9. little known history

there is a mythology that has been built up around that election. Very few people are aware of the "October Surprise" which may have decided the election.

Suggested viewing:

The Trials of Henry Kissinger


http://www.epinions.com/content_82695196292

<snip>
Drawing on the observations of Reporters Hitchens, Seymour Hersh, Elizabeth Becker, Amy Goodman (Pacifica Radio), Barbara Hower and Harper's Publisher Lewis Lapham, we learn that Kissinger was playing two sides of the street during the Vietnam War. LBJ had nearly sewn up a peace treaty with the North Vietnamese in Paris as the 1968 Elections approached, but -- so some of the above mentioned observers allege -- Kissinger leaked the plan to the camp of Republican Nominee Richard Nixon. The Nominee called on Anna Chan Chenault, famed Flying Tiger General Claire Chenault's widow -- known in Washington at the Watergate Apartments where she stayed as "The Dragon Lady." He asked her to offer South Vietnam Leader General van Thieu a better deal if he would hold off agreeing to the terms of the peace settlement. From that tacit agreement, Nixon manufactured his own "Secret Plan to End the War."

There was no Plan, of course, but it proved to be the first October Surprise in American Political History. LBJ, from his own loyal Intelligence sources, knew what Nixon (if not Kissinger) was up to, and offered the proof to Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, but the Democratic Nominee did not want to appear to be using dirty methods. Humphrey was thereafter blindsided at every turn and lost the Election by a substantial margin.
<snip>

Google October Surprise and Kissinger
for more

[bluestateguy]

10. LBJ was bugging Nixon's campaign airplane

He had the goods on him, but he also knew that he obtained the evidence illegally.

[G_j]

11. LBJ

played hardball, he was no angel thats for sure..

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. Chicago Police incited the riot themselves

They were bastards, working at Mayor Daley's behest, just to bust some "unpatriotic" hippie heads.

[G_j]

17. but we continue to blame it on the hippies

sometimes I am not surprised that we are where we are today when RW mythology is perpetuated by "liberals".

divide and conquer..

[T Town Jake]

22. Ummm....Mayor Daley was a Democrat...

...and Democratic President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was one of his staunchest political allies...I'll accept being placed in the ambit of such company any time, any day of the week.

[G_j]

30. I find it amazing

that when the police where ordered to deliberately hurt and bash the skulls of the demonstrators in Chicago, we sit here in a supposedly progressive forum and blame the hippies. I see this over and over again. I really have to wonder if we didn't just ask for our present situation.

[T Town Jake]

35. I'm just reporting historical facts...

...don't blame me if they don't measure up to your standards of ideological perfection. I, for one, believe we need a few more Mayor Daley's AND John F. Kennedy's back in the Democratic Party - perhaps we'd win more elections now like we used to do back then. And we could surely do with less - much less, please - "purists" on quixotic crusades to turn the world into an absolute Utopia at the snap of a few "activist" fingers...that kind of crap is what lost us the blue-collar vote, and turned millions of otherwise loyal progressives into "Reagan Democrats."
Nice going, guys/gals...the ongoing effects of your attempts to make sure the rest of us are Ivory-Tower-Leftist-Pure are still reverberating in the presidency of George W. Bush, and a Republican Congress...keep up the good work. </sarcasm>

[G_j]

41. Historical facts

fine, for the moment I'll take your word Daley was close with JFK.
If that makes violently attacking and injuring protesters OK then we are definately on different pages. What does JFK have to with it?

& I don't see anything "purist" about pointing out the fact that this was later recognized to be a "ploice riot". That is history.

[noiretextatique]

58. "loyal progressives" did NOT become "reagan democrats"

:wtf: that's the MOST RIDICULOUS claim i've ever heard on DU :hurts:
and white blue collar voters are seduced by wedge issues, e.g., abortion, affirmative action, religion, etc.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

32. Zell Miller is too. eom

[peace4all]

45. "Mayor Daley was a Democrat"

I betcha that made those billy clubs feel a lot softer!

[bobbieinok]

52. this was 68...JFK was killed 63

there was a near riot in the convention hall as speakers, delegates verbally attacked Daley ........ 'they're attacking our children'

Daley was part of a machine that was apparently pretty much pro-war and he apparently had NO sympathy for 'pinko, hippie, unAmerican anti-war bums'

[bobbieinok]

51. it was a police riot

remember, there was no monolithic media voice in 68

also, at the time and today....your political viewpoint determines whether you saw/see it as a protestor riot or a police riot

there was a lot of documentation that police tear-gassed hotel lobbies around and attacked anyone on the streets who looked under 30-35........campaigns staffers were attacked, etc

Daley's machine worked hard to whitewash the Chicago cops and demonize anyone/everyone on the street

[sandnsea]

39. "big stormy temper tantrum"

In case you weren't aware, Mr. and Mrs. America aren't impressed with big stormy temper tantrums. They're less impressed when temper tantrums turn into riots.

[teryang]

5. too bad

Protests are good and they are effective.

[Catt03]

12. I second that

but this new policy to keep people behind wire or miles away and have the free press ignore it is even happeneing is not allowing protest.

We are not allowed to protest George Bush in the United States of America.

[President Jesus]

13. We aren't? What is this website then? nt

[Catt03]

14. Didn't know DU was created to protest George Bush

specifically.

In the four years I have been posting here, I was under the impression it was a site to discuss Democratic ideals and policies and to create a venue where we could exchange ideas and information supporting them.

:-)

[Longhorn]

16. Looks like it was founded to do both.

"Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

[Dorian Gray]

18. I'm not looking forward to the protests

But that's only because I live in New York City! Sue me! I'm selfish! I don't want to be tied up in traffic, avoid the whole West Side of Manhattan, and get aggravated every time I leave the house to find loads of cops around!

Of course, I would feel the same way if I were in Boston! These conventions have to happen, so I don't quite see the point in protesting at either of them.

[G_j]

21. give Blomberg a call

what do you expect when you roll out the red carpet for the sleaze-bags who cynically used the tragedy of 9-11 to further their own agendas?

[MrBenchley]

19. Silence implies consent

"I can just see Ed Gillespie now "These police and firefighters have been through so much hardship these last 3 years. Shame on these leftist agitators for attacking them. Senator Kerry should condemn them at once""
And you think that Gillespie is not going to lie his stinking ass off if the protests are peaceful?

[Blue Wally]

26. Yes

Some images of cops who have been struck by protesters bleeding profusely and it turns out that the cop's brother died on duty in the WTC.

Trash a fire engine strategically placed to channel protesters and some small town in Kansas took up a collection and bought the engine for NYC to replace one lost in the WTC.

Too much risk. Let them have their convention and we work for the vote in November.

[leesa]

20. Well good then. We will all be good little Dems and stay home like the

Republicans want us to. Maybe they will scratch our tummies too!

[mdmc]

24. Any concern regarding the protests would lead me to suggest

the concerned party to stay home. Feel free to write a letter to the editor, post on a discussion board, or take out an advertisement.
The greatest sedition is silence.
Lets make this protest peaceful. Lets make this protest look like America, protesting the corporate GOP party. :hi:

[Oddman]

23. The protest is very important.

It is much more important for us to excite the democratic base, get them interested in the election process and get them to vote! By having this protest the democrats who have not been voting might get off their butts and go to the polls after they view the million or so protesters who have taken the time to TRAVEL to NYC - because this election matters that much! I know that I'll be there with banner and displays.
We are not only saving our country from a madman we are saving the world . . .


A Pathetic Excuse for a pResident

[thinkingwoman]

25. I might get flamed, but here goes...

I think, for the most part, that street demonstrations are a dinosaur. As is pointed out in this thread and many others, "free speech zones" effectively put demonstrations out of the public eye and certainly out of range for usefullness. Plus, with the UNpatriot act...well, we all know how that can be used to mischaracterize and criminalize a common street demonstration.

My point? Let's find a new way to protest. Something stunning in its creativity and effectiveness. Something that leaves the facists speechless.

The only example I can think of at the moment is something my husband suggested earlier this week. Say we want to stage a massive protest against the portion of the UNpatriot act that allows the justice department to check library records they claim they never check. Why not create a list of books we feel would rile the AG and then have WHITE MALES check out those books in massive quantities nationwide, indefinitely (check out the first book on the list, return it, check out the next, return it, and so on until you reach the end and then start over...put your name on a waiting list if the book you want is unavailable, etc.)?

Why white males? Because minorities are too easy to label as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. Make Asscroft label white males with zero criminal pasts as terrorists and make him do it in the hundreds of thousands.

This type of protest resembles a denial of service attack on the internet--shut down by overwhelming. I think creative minds could devise innovative ways to orchestrate denial of service attacks in the physical world. Whenever it can be done without breaking any law, so much the better.

Massive street demonstrations would still have their place, but only in certain circumstances and when massive (a million or so) crowds could reasonably be mustered.

Thoughts?

[Oddman]

27. It could be effective

But it won't excite the democratic electorate. The point is to get the 50% of democrats who didn't vote last election to get to the polls and cast a ballot. A huge protest will get news coverage and will show all the disenfranchised and lazy democrats that this election is the most important in their lifetimes. I hope Springsteen decides to do his free concert - haven't heard anything about that recently though . . .


A Pathetic Excuse for a pResident

[thinkingwoman]

28. footage of a protest will excite

Dems who didn't vote last time? How?

[Oddman]

29. I was talking about the protest to a friend of mine who hasn't voted

in 20 years. I explained why I was going and how important it was for us to make our presence known. Not only did he register to vote he is going to come to NYC to be part of it. "I feel like I've been politically reborn" he said. He's so excited he is trying to organize other people to join us.


Wolfospitz

[thinkingwoman]

59. hey that's great!

But I can't see how this example could be extrapolated to a significantly larger number. In fact, I would say it was the one-to-one explanation/discussion of issues that led to the desired result.

[hang a left]

54. To you and others on this thread...

How many people would you estimate will be in NYC to protest. I have read of some very high numbers.

[YNGW]

31. While reading various websites........

......... like Indymedia and the sort, I can say there are many people who plan on showing up. Also a lot of chatter about those who plan on using the "black bloc" tactic of protesting, so I would expect to see events ala Seattle 1999 with people in masks breaking windows, turning over cars, setting things on fire, etc.... I have read no such protests planned for Boston by these same people.

[TankLV]

33. I am worried too - about all the so-called hand wringers proclaiming

their so-called self proclaimed loyalty to the Democratic Party that crawl out of the woodwork to post boo-hoos about any constructive policy or - horror- genuine strong and justifiable emotions - anger - that have been built up against these thugs in OUR White House, and try to always silence ANY AND ALL criticisms of these same repuke criminals.

That is what worries me the most.

God forbid there should be actuall OPPOSITION to any repuke or DINO.

Geesh!

[G_j]

43. yep, that may possibly be one of the gravest dangers of

all. :scared:

[DinahMoeHum]

34. At the rate * and Bloomberg are going, the police and firefighters

will be in the VANGUARD of the demonstrations! They are none too happy with the GOP, and their unions have endorsed Kerry. Add to that the fact that this year the military vote is also up for grabs due to the Iraq war, and Kerry has the makings of a TRIFECTA!!

:kick::kick::kick:

[bushwakker]

36. Massive, peaceful protest would be a good thing

If people turn out in great numbers all around MSG to show their opposition I think it sends a pwoerful message to people all over the world that this administration cannot be allowed to govern for 4 more years.

[Individualist]

38. Exactly

Protestors will never be discouraged from turning out because of some people expressing "concern" for their safety, "concern" that protests won't be effective, etc.

[T Town Jake]

37. Because it needs it...

:kick:

[Bridget Burke]

40. Considering the possibility of violent agitators--

Quite possibly undercover Republicans.

Wouldn't this make it even more necessary to have large numbers of peaceful demonstrators?

[noahmijo]

42. I agree overall

All this protest is going to do is allow the media to snap pictures of the few maniacs who are attacking the police and post them on the front page where Karl Rove will narrate "You see THIS is what the Democrats are all about! if you oppose Bush you're with the masked freaks!"

I agree that a peaceful protest should happen, but it's just the few anarcho-freaks that to taint the name of the peaceful demonstrators and thanks to the media become the symbol for the Democrats.

[ursacorwin]

44. as one of those "anarcho-freaks" you mentioned

let me tell you that not all of us believe in violent protest, and you really should go to a meeting or two before you point fingers. most of the time, violence is due to undercover cops and plants who are there to give the media something to focus upon. and in today's media, i don't understand why you fail to realize that they will make something up if they have to; all they do is lie all day and i expect nothing different during the convention.

perhaps you've seen F9/11? remember all those "freaky" activists that crisco jonny is after? they had a plant as well.

in the old days, they would say: "the first person in your group to mention guns is the undercover cop." it's still true today.

in fact, when i read these "should i go" or "is it effective" threads *here at DU!* the first thing i think is- is this poster a plant?

for crying out loud, activism is what made this country free. do it now peacefully, or do it later fruitlessly (as in, when the fascists come for you and it's too late to do anything but die.)

[shoelace414]

46. another thing it does

"the republican convention did blahblahblahblah"

"there were widespread protests because of blahblahblahblah"

it's gets your message on the news.

[noahmijo]

47. You're arguing with me for the sake of arguing

You clearly are not in the category of "anarcho-freaks" that I'm talking about. Clearly you don't fall into the category of the sort that I am talking about.

I am pointing the finger at those who attack the police, or anyone in general just for the sake of doing it. These types have no agenda, they don't give two shits about this country, they just want a wild time they can brag about later, and they DO exist, and the media always gives them the most attention.

Don't tell me that I fail to see that the media just makes up stories about these types, I've seen them with my own eyes, and they are truly nothing but thugs with no agenda but to cause a riot and cause innocent people to become hurt or worse. I always notice that the cameramen shoot them the most and completely ignore the thousands of peaceful protestors as if they aren't even there (you are here)

You seem to belong to the category of the vocal "hey hey ho ho" sort which are the sort that I am highly supportive of.

[G_j]

50. I hope I'm not breaking a rule here

If I am I'm sorry. BUT I find it very hard to believe you. I've been at a number of "anti-globalization" protests myself and have not seen those who "attack the police, or anyone in general just for the sake of doing it."
I'm sorry I don't believe you've actually seen this.

[peace4all]

48. some people keep

on believing and repeating the lies that the right wing disseminates.
I find that scary. Every time they repeat the same bogus fear-mongering stories which never turn out to be true.

[newportdadde]

49. What good will massive protests at the RNC do in NYC?"

I dont think we need it. I'm very concerned that it will just be flipped against us in some way. Look at The passion of Christ, F911... both of these had their protestors against them and it drove them both into huge success.

It will give Hannity/Rush and their ilk days and days of ranting.

[bobbieinok]

53. AT THETIME, most people/media said dems lost NOT

because of the 68 protests

BUT BECAUSE MANY ANTI-WAR PURISTS REFUSED TO VOTE FOR HHH

I was in grad school and then moving to IA to start a job in the summer of 68......I guess I'm kinda old and slow now, but here at DU is the FIRST time I've heard that the 68 convention protests cost the democrats the election

that was NOT the story at the time

in fact, the democrats in the convention hall were near crying that their kids, their staffers, their friends were being attacked outside by the pro-war Chicago cops

NOTE: I do NOT believe or claim that the view(s) of people at the time are the correct one(s). I understand that years later with access to more info, the contemporary interpretation(s) may be modified or reversed.

BUT: contemporary interpretations/views include 'realities' of emotion etc that do not get into the history books.

[bobbieinok]

55. and don't forget the massive rewriting of 60s history that's been

going on for a long time now

[G_j]

57. there is more, please read post #9 n/t

[faithnotgreed]

56. it IS (and should) happen - i just hope its strong and peaceful

we must gather together in nyc. as we know this is a dangerous group in charge of OUR country.
they do not represent us. they do not even pretend to. they do not care about what is best for the citizens

i , for one, want the citizens, and the world for that matter, to know that we do care. and that we care so very much we are willing to put in some iota of passion and energy and love into our actions.

i believe it could counteract, even in the smallest way, the destruction and the greed that this administration shows every day to the people of our country and those around the world

not to be dramatic, but these are the people who need us to speak out. because i dont think that many are bad people. they just seek to believe the leadership because they think that is what you are supposed to do. they dont know another way so it seems foreign to them. and we know that is precisely what has been drilled into them all their lives and esp of late - that it is wrong to speak out. that we have strong leadership and all the rest.

well i think if people get out there in august and show that you can speak out. that there are many many people of all different ages and colors, including veterans, it does give them a chance to see others, who DO represent where they live across this country, that there is something very very wrong going on that we must try to stop.

i always believe in trying. and i thank everyone who will try and have been trying to make peaceful change. if there are massive amounts of voices, in unison, wanting true change for the country they love, it CAN make a difference.

the world and our country literally depend on it.