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wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:39 AM
Original message
# of times in church = degree of conservativism?
Did you hear this recently?
The best way to gage a conservative is NOT by salary anymore.
A more reliable gage is by how many times one attends church???!!!

We’ve been following the steady inroads the neocons have been making reversing the separation of church and state. I haven’t seen statistics on how many votes they’ve picked up over the years with their phony diatribe of conservative religious ideals….but the whole thing is started to make some grizzly sense to me now.

Consider why religion, particularly the psycho religious right strain, is having such a growing fellowship with neoconservativism and its warped view of success and capitalism:

We’ve all seen those stuffed suits go to church every Sunday and then stab their fellow workers in the back Monday morning. I’ve always thought such people basically wanted to impress others with their “bridal party” Sunday attire…or perhaps get a quick forgiveness for their week’s misdeeds, but now I’m thinking there’s much more going on here than meets the eye. Our new hollow corporate greed monster has found a way to brush its morally corrupt actions under the rug and fill its hollow moral heart with visions of success, using religion as an increasingly viable vehicle to do so. Similarly, the psycho religious right has found a wonderful ideological match with the greed monster.

The psycho religious right movement is a true psychological fit with business when you think of how the right wing neocons approach life, in terms of their “eyes focused forward” formula for success. The religious right’s interpretation of religion may appear to endorse Christ, but nothing could be further than the truth. They actually take on more of an Old Testament view of religion in that religious rewards are basically bestowed on the “chosen people”.

While the truest forms of Christianity concentrate on actually “being like Christ”, the people we’re talking about here would rather take a pragmatic approach to religion. After all, they would reasons, in the modern world we live in it’s impractical to be like Christ. One of the key parts of their rationalization provides that the world is flawed and imperfect, so anything which rises above this God forsaken mess must have something going for it. Thus we find the modern capitalistic “formula for success” being morphed together with their religious ideals. This belief in success suddenly allows them to maneuver within the capitalistic system…. or perhaps even operate as a corporate level if need be.

Another important part of their religious interpretation is that God essentially micromanages every little thing in the world, providing us with winners and losers. Those that do adopt an air of success and who generally believe that it is the BELIEF in success that gets you there (Limbaughism)….suddenly find a wonderful companion in religion because this must mean that God is looking down with glowing eyes on your success! We must also note that as time approaches Armageddon, these people are actually looking at their success as possibly giving them a better seat at the front of the bus.

Never mind that Christ said a camel would more easily pass through a needle’s eye than a rich man would pass through the gates of heaven. In the mind of the modern religious right, and particularly those Reconstructionist level right wingers that view the world as one which should be conquered, there is a sense that one better be practical about spreading capitalism, linked of course to the church. This also immediately translates into a national level belief for them in terms of America’s overall success as having to be inextricably linked to a direct endorsement by God himself. All this provides a wonderful self-feeding, heart inspiring effect. You see, we ARE spreading his truth throughout the world. Just look at what we’ve accomplished!

Having concluded that we are proceeding with God’s will, they are careful to note the important guiding lights and symbols that got them there. A focus on ideals and symbols of those ideals are not only important to the way that they rationalize life itself but to how they specifically believe we should live our lives. The symbols take precedence over one’s individualistic appeals. It is interesting to note that the symbols of success provide a vehicle to carry out one’s work, whatever that might entail, while also enabling one to be strategically shielded by the potential misdeeds that might occur!

To them Christ is actually a SYMBOL of a number of things, rather than the giver of a monumental philosophical message that has the potential to unleash each individual’s full thought process. They view religious insight not as something which empowers one to do good deeds, but to more superficially become part of the “formula for success”. The moral symbolizations generally turn off a true thought process or anything which would be viewed as misguided philosophy. For instance, they don’t think of the direct religious illogic of the death penalty, or its specific individual by individual catastrophic loss, they concentrate on the symbolism of punishment. They don’t think of the neocons in power or the war as representing any specific misdeeds ….they think of these things in terms of symbols of hope for our spread of success throughout the world. Let’s not philosophize about this or that issue. This represents inefficiency and confusion, with eyes out of focus. What’s happening is generally under the direction of God. He will guide us and maintain our spirit as long we hold up the hollow symbols of moral value and success.

We find a similar situation has evolved in the corporate world, where those who carry out their misdeeds are shielded by their important symbols of success. Thus you see those in the business world have developed an unusual camaraderie in their adornment of corporate symbols of success….to the level of it being a religious level experience which melds seamlessly with right wing religious ideals….whether it be working hard, obeying authority, or not stepping out of line. These symbols of success guide and motivate, and keep one’s eyes looking forward so as not to notice the wreckage underneath.

Respect for higher authority: Let’s not forget that those that essential have to be preached to generally have to have the meaning of their lives explained to them and who tend to enjoy this form of indoctrination. They are not very content with thinking things out for themselves. Never mind Christ’s essential message that nearly shook the old testament right out of the Bible….ie….YOU have the power to make it happen. Yes you, you poor slob, can RECEIVE a bounty of knowledge and understanding by thinking things out, if only you open your heart to it (and by the way AVOID being distracted by what others say are ICONS of truth). How revolutionary the concept that man himself has the necessary attributes to find ways to make life livable on earth!

Not so for the religious right. They interpret life as a brief stay prior to eternal life in heaven. Let’s not agonize so much about how to make the world some kind of true planet in which the human condition can progressively evolve, when true bliss is only truly attainable in heaven. Furthermore, let’s not waste our time listening to anyone who purports to have any such worldly answers to making the planet a very livable and enjoyable place. Only God himself has such answers. As a matter of fact, such people could be held in CONTEMPT for appearing to act as if THEY actually had some kind of divine knowledge.

And the neocons have actually succeeded in making management science out of this. Pick up any of the various new texts on management theory or organizational theory. Most go almost completely counter to the wonderful new concepts of human resource management in terms of trying to unleash the true creative power in people and put them in environments which spur improved working relationships and so forth. You see, this is where we have evolved in our approach to profit making. Following orders and keeping one’s eye on the ball also generally fits with one’s general paranoia about potentially losing one’s job if you step out of line. Better to accept the situation as being “right” and obey and even develop a religious level sense of allegiance.

Yes, quite clearly, the religious right movement is directly feeding into blind capitalism, our overall moral degradation, our THINKING degradation, and the inevitable goalless output which is created through being overly focused on hollow ideals. We are becoming an ever increasingly SICK society because of these religious wackos with stuffed suits. We have the leading neocon right wing force of the Republican party essentially in a dysfunctional religious level trance, operating on a set of ideals and morals which are considered to be religiously correct and success oriented. Problem is, as high and mighty as they might think their ideals are, they endorse a basic “formula for success” which is anti-social and actually quite insane in that it provides no logically basis on which to justify their actions. Curiously, they also seem to have a wonderful knack of getting involved with crooked deals and IMMORAL behavior. How could that be possible you say? Well it’s no wonder when you think about it, if you’re blind to true thought itself or any true morals in the first place.

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cheezus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. If I was a conservative, I'd need to go somewhere every week
to listen to somebody powerful convince me that what I've been doing is right.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry...this assumes all christians are republicans.
There ARE liberal christians. I ARE one. :)

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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Me as well
And I go every week.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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redwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I are two.
Go to mass nearly every week, have liberal pastor, have liberal ideas, vote liberal, am liberal, raising liberal kids(who are anti organized religion as it happens (sigh), I are a good Dem and a cafeteria Catholic. How come I have to post that so much???
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Welcome to DU fellow Liberal Christian!!
UCC member here!

:toast:
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wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. You didn't read it....
If you understand what Christ really said....you are a Christian in my book. You don't use him as an excuse...that's the point.

Christ said one extremely important message which deviated from the neocons of the time....
THINK FOR YOURSELVE....and you can find the answer.
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sldavis Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Me too
and so is ~90% of the congregation at my church (Disciples of Christ in Ann Arbor). I go every week, sometimes twice.
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Repukes want to believe they are the only ones who believe in the christia
n god.

Silly, silly little repukes.. the world does not revolve around you.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. I go to a conservative church, and I will say the months that I go every
Sunday leave me feeling paranoid as far as having an anxious feeling that I need to behave in a way that the church would approve of.

The times I do not go on a regular basis I feel more relaxed and am less likely to take their opinions into account in my decision making.

Now, I am bascially stuck going to church there because it's hubby's church. I mean, I could stay home but he would still take the kids and I just don't feel right about handing my children over like that. I feel it is better that I am involved with their Sunday school and Jr. Church time to help keep things moderate.

So it is no surprise to me that a lot of conservative voters go to church frequently. The church has a mesmerizing effect on some folks. *l* It's a velvet glove situation in mine. the sort of "Well, we won't tell you what to do but we believe the Holy Spirit will lay it on your heart what is right."

Fortunately I have other avenues to counteract this, such as hanging out with liberal Christians online. And I am seriously thinking of going to the Congregational or UU book discussion groups. And eventually, whether hubby likes it or not, I am going to take our kids to services at a lot of different denominations so that they can see firsthand what they are like. (Their grandfather is very anti-Catholic, so I will be taking them to Mass for certain.)

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Wow, that sounds really familiar
It's hard not to start feeling that way when you attend frequently. I felt the same way when I was an Evangelical Christian. It took my attending the church's college for me to see the logical extension of their beliefs. That was scary.

Now I'm Eastern Orthodox Christian and doing much better faith-wise and politics-wise. It's a healthier place--as long as you get a good church (long story on that one).

I highly recommend checking us out, if you're considering a different church. We're about as different as you can get, and our theology is much nicer.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Welcome to DU and thanks. :^) Unfortunately
hubby is the son of a Nazarene minister, so he just can't get himself to go to another denom unless it's almost identical to the Nazarenes.

Mind you, the Nazarenes have some good points: women can wear make-up and pants, and they are allowed to preach. Also, the Nazarenes are heavy into compassionate ministries and helping the poor and needy worldwide.

If it wasn't for those two aspects, I would have a much more difficult time being in a church that believes only a certain group of people will get into heaven, and that is Bible-based. I don't even have a problem with being evangelical provided it isn't about thumping people on the head and telling them that Jesus is the only way into Heaven. As a liberal Christian, I do not believe that. I also see enough inconsistencies in the Bible to make me take it with a grai of salt. Lots of tremendous wisdom in that book, but also much bigotry.

I think once the kids are older I am going to start going to one of the more liberal churches here in town instead of trekking 45 minutes one way to get to hubby's church. But not until I feel like the kids feel secure in their idea of what faith should be for them. I can't leave them in a conservative church on their own until they have some idea of what they believe.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm
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wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I hear what you're saying....
I haven't gone regularly in a while...but when I do...it's hard to withstand the guilt trip that they feel compelled to lay on you....at least the classical preachers that is....

This is the way I look at things and perhaps this will help....

Don't get really too hung up on the Bible....it's a history book....not written by Jesus.

Jesus message was truly one of simplicity that transends any "written" word....here again the problem with symbols.....

He would have been considered the most broad minded liberal, and the best philosopher of all time in the sense of his "theory of relativity" as it applies to our interpretation of the world and how to live our lives.

Rules don't take precedence over ACTIONS.
Actions speak louder than WORDS.
There ARE a few very simple absolutes....like "do unto others"....but the rest does not require much more than acting on and being in touch with your inner faith.

There are no scorecards or levels of good vs bad as those who abuse the message find so tempting to make in order to gage how well THEY are doing compared to others.

You make an honest attempt....be honest with yourself....you WILL get your reward. It really does happen.

His approach was mind boggling and "relativistic" to people at the time because they were all expecting an ABSOLUTE KING. One to provide all the answers....show them the way....etc.

Ironically, Jesus was the anti of that.

He was the savior of the common man....especially in the sense that he showed us that each one of us has a different dilemma....a different situation.....but beyond that....the answer can be found right from the heart.

Oh by the way...one important note....concerning EVIL.
An important lesson....evil CANNOT be defeated by EVIL.
One must recognize and AVOID it....not seek out and destroy it.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Some of the most liberal people I've met have been...
nuns, priests, novices, and observant Jews. Then there's always the Episcopal priest I knew who was a sort of New Deal-type Democrat.
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. I spend as much as 6 hours a week in church or church related activities
Edited on Thu Jul-15-04 12:27 PM by TeacherCreature
Liberal as the come.

Oh, and I am a protestant who believes in choice.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. I go to church almost every week, and I'm a liberal
Yeah, I go to the hippy, new age church, but it's still church.
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wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I had some luck with the "hippy new wave".....
but when the "minister" stood up and said that he felt the ultimate troubling in his heart over the fact that Clinton had commited such a sin and disgraced our country....(and right in front of my kid at the time).....I said.....SEE YA.

The best one we went to in our area was the liberty church and I was wondering why the people were so nice and I was having such a good time....then my wife pointed out.....they're all gay!
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Regular church goer here
and most definitely liberal. :hi:
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm there every Sunday
so are plenty of other people.

We're all card-carrying (literally!) Liberals.
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