Russia has proven Marx was right?

[wadestock]

I'm trying to catch up now on what's going on....have had Russia off my radar screen for a while.....

What the heck is going on?

Seems they've jumped very quickly to a two class system with an upper class which is controlling the assets and no formation of a middle class.

On the news last nite I was watching the BBC channel and they showed an investigative reporter being shot....and how there is a trend to have only one voice in the media....with those controlling the assets exerting a "big brother" control that would make KGB agent tremble in his shoes.

Another shining historical example of the fact that capitalism doesn't work unless it is supported by a vibrant middle class.....

Russia could be a model for how we'll look in about 20 years or so.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Plutocracy at its finest. That is the goal of the rich worldwide.. we'll

have sham borders and governments, but the transnational corps will rule everything. Even more than they do now.

[leftyandproud]

2. russia does not have capitalism

their regulation and national control is extreme...putin is guaranteeing private monopolies to his friends, using state power to squelch the competition...makes the usa look lassiez faire by comparison

[tom_paine]

3. Poltiically, Russia has what Imperial Amerika will soon have

It's called "managed Democracy" and Comrade Putin has used the Bushevik Playbook to wonderful effect over there.

the reason he has so swiftly implemented this New Totalitarianism is because Russia's democarcy was so weak and young.

The Old American Republic was 225 years old and twenty times as strong as Russia's embryonic democracy. Which is why it is taking so damned long for the Busheviks to finish it off, not daring to move even now that almost 100% of the mechanisms of Totalitarianism are fully in place and they could start the Death Squads tomorrow.

But no, we are not in Comrade Putin's Russia and the Imperial Subjects of Amerika would not quite accept it yet.

One more generation has to die, leaving NO ONE in Amewrika who grew up mostly free prior to the Bloodless Coup of 2000.

By the time TWO generations die off, and NO ONE is left who was even a tenager when the Old Republic died, only THEN will the Final Stages of Bushevik Totalitarianism become clear.

And it may be quite a bit worse than Comrade Putin's version when it finally comes.

[enki23]

17. that is the case in all unregulated capitalism

probably all capitalism. the capitalists always become the state.

[russian33]

4. my 2 cents

Russia is better of now than it was in mid-90's, well, at least the life of an average Russian (I have family there, and travel often, so I've seen it first hand). Granted, Putin has taken a hard-line approach to things, but what people don't understand is that Russia needs a strong hand running it, at least right now. Yeltsin managed to run the country into the ground, and someone strong needed to pull it up. I'm sure there are things going on in Russia that are not to everyone's liking, but we can't expect every country in the world to have democracy like we HAD here (no country in the world should have what we currently have). That being said, I think there's more of middle class now, than there was in the 90's.

On the subject of the investigative reporter, all of his reports had to do with so-called oligarchs, all of which came to be rich using questionable practices (and that's putting it lightly). One of his main subjects was Berezovsky, and I read that book, I can see how it can upset the mighty billionaire. My guess, it was a hit, ordered by one of the people he pissed off.

[wadestock]

10. That's really good news....

I hope you're right about them making progess with their middle class.

The way it historically happened in Europe was that unions and labor interests were represented. Then the worker was "empowered" and found a true home in the middle class. It has to happen in a way that gets people into the "middle class work ethic"....but with certain rewards that they all share.

Without labor unions...and without any true inspiration for the middle class to become part of a growing family of people who are benefiting in the economy...exactly how are they going to do it?

By the way....the neocons have used examples like this and such places like India to "prove" that you can't solve the problem by "taxing the rich"....and that this only makes matters worse.

I don't think this is the point. The point is to provide just the right touch of "socialism" (if you want to call it that)...which inspires and solidifies the middle class as a working unit.

[russian33]

13. what happened was...

..we (or they actually) went from having a pretty solid middle class when they were the 'Evil Empire' (my family was an example), to middle class practically disappearing in the 1990's, when people either became rich (most of the times illegally), or poor...lately, things started to stabilize (just look at the price of a dollar), and the middle class started to come back..

[StandUpGuy]

14. Working for what ?

Inspires the middle class to do what exactly, work to provide for themselves or the rich elite?

[K-W]

5. Marx was both very very right and very very wrong.

But yes, his criticisms of capitalism has always been his more empirical and more successful field. He just got into trouble when he tried to predict the future.

[Bread and Circus]

6. I've been to Russia twice recently and it looked like a horrible...

place to live under Soviet Times. It looks like it is getting
better and many people I talk to there seem to think the same.

Anyway, during Soviet Times (during communism there) there still
was a ruling rich class going the the dacha and a bunch of poor
people. The communist party members were the ruling elite wealthy
class, yet still a statistical minority. Sound familiar?

I think communism is a interesting idea that never really works
as it is supposed to. Humans, by their very simian nature,
always seperate themselves into classes and compete (if not kill)
over resources.

Frankly, I think well-regulated Capitalism is much better than
anything communism had to offer.

[wadestock]

11. Capitalism is of course the best.....

Provided that it doesn't commit suicide.
It has to be mixed with the right combination of social programs and incentives for the middle class, otherwise there really is no social order.

Any model for the most successful business endeavors doesn't work out of sweat shops or dysfunctional class and wealth situations.

The most vibrant businesses historically have found their roots in middle class neighborhoods, where the people can become proud and inspired of their work, make continued progress, and continued quality of items according to Deming's "Chain Reaction Theory". (you know...what happened in Japan and in Ford Motor Co., etc)

There is no other way to have the best infrastructure of business but to have a vibrant and motivated middle class.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. America has proven Marx was right.

Marx said that Russia couldn't have a real Marxist state because it was so backwards. Which proved to be the case when the authoritarians took over the revolution.

America has now assumed the role of the major oligarch in the world. The bomb is ticking. The rest of the world is quickly identifying us as the Mafia that is using force to ensure the wealth of our own oligarchs that go under the names of corporations.

[JanMichael]

15. Bingo. Lenin forced the issue in a place other than the UK, Germany...

...or the US of A.

He also created the "Socialism in ONE Country" idea that runs diametrically opposed to Marx.

Toss in the fact that the new USSR was under immense pressures from the major International Capitalist powers and voila! Totalitarian State Capitalism.

America, while the worst Imperialist left on the World stage, could also be the Best Answer to a Humane Socialism.

[wadestock]

19. It COULD be.....

Big BIG stress on the COULD in that sentence....

But unfortunately things are NOT going that way....

Here we have Reaganism and the neocons have brought us an upper 1% that controls about 50 Trillion dollars in assets.
If left at its current state....the rich would for all intents and purposes own 99.9% of all assets in 35 years.

Clinton was the last vestige of hope...then the neocons took over the congress....and now we've gotten down to a 35 % upper eschelon tax rate.....

How will we get it back to anything which looks reasonable in terms of progressive tax rate. It should be in the 40 to 50% range...that would be ideal.

But a supermajority in congress is necessary to make that happen.

WITHOUT THAT EXTREMELY IMPORTANT ADJUSTMENT IN THE UPPER RATE....WE ARE ON A VERITABLE TALE SPIN TOWARDS A TWO CLASS SYSTEM AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THE MIDDLE CLASS.

EU and/or Canada is an infinitely better example of a possible answer to free enterprise with an appropriate mix of socialism.

[CO Liberal]

8. Oh??? Groucho , Chico, or Harpo???

:-)

[Warpy]

9. A large middle class is an artificial creation!

I'm absolutely amazed at how many "experts" in eoconomics don't realize that, but then most economics chairs are endowed by the rich and the corporate and teach only neoclassical economics, a formula for getting us back to the days of the robber barons and ultimately to serfdom.

The only way to create the conditions favorable to the middle class is to create conditions that prevent the concentration of capital into fewer and fewer hands. We've done this successfully in the past with a progressive tax structure. That has kept the money cycle flowing. The money pump always flows from the bottom up, and only be recycling the money from the top back down to the point of origin can you keep the whole thing functioning. The rich will still get richer. They just do so a little mroe slowly.

Those rotten sales figures from the discount giants, the 3.5 million unsold cars on the lots are all symptoms that abandoning this model was done at our peril. The consumer market is being choked off, and Bush's solution is to keep downward pressure on wages while trying to come up with ways to raise taxes on the poorest.

The major economic fight of our lives has got to be to reinstitute a progressive tax structure, whether income or sales tax. Only in this way can we get any sort of a fair deal for labor while curtailing the type of greed we've seen run amok over the past 40 years.

Otherwise, we'll end up just like Mother Russia. Serfdom. Aristocracy. No other choices.

[wadestock]

12. Warpy....couldn't have been better said....

Now how the hell can we realistically get there?

I think we're going to get the presidency...but we may not get the congress....or the supermajority that may be required to do in effect what Clinton did with his act to raise the upper rate and pay down the debt.

What really distresses me is that anyone went along with any first level tweak downward in the first place. Now it's in....and perhaps they won't get any further reductions to 28% or even a flat tax....but we don't stand a good chance in getting it up to where it should be....like where Kerry SAYS he'll put it...say 39%.

Of course we know our capitalistic system...specifically at this point in our history ....would work PERFECTLY FINE....at a 50% upper rate.

[bobthedrummer]

16. Russia especially got Marx wrong, just like Marx predicted imo.

Stalin killed 20 million people in the USSR for POLITICAL REASONS. He was a mean drunk too.

[Sugarbleus]

18. Russia could be a model for how we'll look in about 20 years or so.

Truer words were never spoken..lol I've been telling my family this very thing. Things looking like a cross between a neo fascist and KGB run state here in the 'ole USA. Who woulda thunk it!?