People who outsource - are they traitors who undermine America?

[Deja Q]

America and its stability and infrastructure.

Reagan: Disbanded alternative engery programs, saying they were "obsolete". :eyes: The guy had never a functioning brain cell, but he greatly helped our dependence on foreign energy sources. He is a traitor. :-(

Corporate america: Outsources justifiably high paying jobs for cheap instant profit that does NOT get trickled down to us. Losing the jobs, helps take away the middle class in the process. The end result is losing talent here in America while destroying the economy as they paid politicians to shift the tax burden to the middle class while forgetting it's the middle class that loves to buy the plastic stuff found in crafts stores, best buy, et cetera. The middle class is what keeps the economy going. Corporate america is composed of traitors. :-(

*: I needn't say one word, we all know his ties with the bin Laden family, the Saudis, and so on. He openly supports outsourcing and has said we need to support an energy plan that supports consumption (*'s actions have shown it's OIL being the energy he wants people to consume - this will only lead to a more rapid decimation of our country's, and the world's, economy.) Not to mention how he's handled the UN and asked people to become his "coalition of the willing" to help him do his selfish dirty work. Traitor? You betcha. :-(

[proud patriot]

1. Traitors who live lives of luxury on the backs of American Taxpayers n/t

[rkc3]

2. This will only last until there's no middle-class in America.

Another sign of the short-sightedness of Americans.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

3. "Well its good for business, bad for people"

FUCK YOU! good for the pockets of few, bad for the livelyhood of many. Once the petrodollar crashes, America -with her huge trade deficit- will be fucked.

[Virginian]

4. It is good for his base - part of it.

It is good for his wealthy contributers which helps them contribute more. It is bad for the part of his base that come from the Religious Right. They are so brainwashed that they still believe it when he tells them the economy is improving. He is working on destroying their lives and livelihoods. They just keep cheering. When they wake up, it will be too late for them. None of them will ever be able to afford to retire.

[Deja Q]

17. The corporate leaders know that and I bet that's partly why they are...

America is toast. (I'd responded big-time in other threads about Iraq and all about some of the problems that will happen when oil is no longer economically viable... and the corporate thugs know this and are preparing now. Still, even Bill Gates' money won't get him much if our economy is destroyed. And that is inevitable.)

[Dookus]

5. It's not as simple as some people think....

I've worked for 20 years in Silicon Valley, usually for startup companies.

When I began in the business, companies here tended to have on-site customer and technical support. Eventually, it became too expensive to pay the high salaries in the Bay Area and provide the management and other resources needed to run such a team. So it became common to hire an outside company to run such support services, and the teams were often based in cheaper locales: Salt Lake City, Austin, North Carolina, etc.

For a small startup company, the costs of support are huge. It can make the difference between profit and loss, between success and failure.

A few years ago, some Canadian companies got wise and took a lot of the support business. Now we see Indian companies doing it.

It's not always done to increase already-immorally high profits - it's often done simply to survive. I worked for two well-known consumer electronics startups, and the margins are low, development costs high, and the only way for the companies to survive AT ALL was to lower other costs, including support costs.

I can see both sides of this issue, and I don't have an easy answer. But I DO know that often, the decision to outsource isn't made out of greed, but out of the need to merely survive.

[eagler]

7. Thereis a simple solution -

We shouldn't be trading or giving jobs to any nation which doesn't have a competative wage and doesn't allow their workers to unionize.

[Dookus]

9. Then tell me how the companies I worked for could survive...

in the cut-throat world of consumer electronics, where most of the competition was non-American companies?

Your answer is not only simple, but simplistic.

[eagler]

8. There is a simple solution -

We shouldn't be trading or giving jobs to any nation which doesn't have a competative wage and doesn't allow their workers to unionize.

[brokensymmetry]

14. Survival, yes - but there's a deeper question.

There isn't enough margin (as you point out) to not go offshore. Why? Because companies that are already off-shoring have cut the prices of their products or services, which puts pressure on everyone else's margins.

That's why the answer isn't with one company, or even one industry. We need a national policy, and national leadership, that protects our workers and industries from utterly unfair competition. Not only unfair, but morally repugnant - because when we buy imports from countries that use slave labor, we are supporting the practice.

Might I add that there is no reason for a CEO to get paid HUNDREDS of times what the average worker gets paid? Now there's a place to cut costs! :evilgrin:

[Dookus]

16. the CEO of the last two companies I worked for

had a salary of 150k a year.

I guess the problem in tech is that our competition is mostly foreign-owned corporations. Without starting an escalating protectionist war, how do we compete in a market where the other companies have different rules?

[brokensymmetry]

19. Let's look at underlying assumptions.

You said: "Without starting an escalating protectionist war, how do we compete in a market where the other companies have different rules?"

The trouble is, we cannot compete with such companies. Costs such as social security, workers compensation, various taxes - and, dare we hope it, health insurance - exist for domestic companies. If one goes offshore, one avoids all those expenses. I don't care to enter this race to the bottom, and I'd bet you don't either.

Right now, we're still a big market. Maybe we should accept the costs of protectionism, instead of deferring them until we have less leverage.

BTW, my compliments to your CEO. Clearly, he isn't one of those who gets a $20,000,000 bonus while laying off the workers.

[Dookus]

20. the CEO was a she...

and one of the most honest, caring people I've ever known.

As I said above, I don't know the answer. The current situation, allowed to continue, won't work. But then, I don't think protectionism will work, either.

The long-term solution is one in which workers throughout the world are given basic protections, a livable wage and the right to organize. We need to do as much as we can to move toward that.

Perhaps my view is colored by my experiences in tech, which I feel HAS done a somewhat more responsible job than some other industries (such as clothing and textiles).

[Senior citizen]

22. Not hundreds: thousands, maybe millions

Nowadays the "average worker" is probably making 17 cents an hour or less, while the CEO of that multinational is making millions a year plus stock, bonuses, pension and golden parachute. It is obscene. I never in my life thought I would want to be part of a lynch mob, but if we ever get these guys, I would happily participate.

[Deja Q]

15. So it's wrong to pay them an equitable wage? But I am at fault...

People who maintain and protect data should be getting paid lots of money. Instead, corporations send it overseas and as a partial result be able to devalue the same job at home. Working with data is not quite the same thng as flipping burgers, collecting then moving garbage to a landfill, or tending tables... and those jobs are underpaid too, as far as I'm concerned.

Okay, I see your point about small companies and big ones. It's my fault for not originally clarifying "foreign outsourcing", which was what I meant.

[Dookus]

18. well

we DID pay an equitable wage for the countries we were in. Years ago, one company did some manufacturing in Singapore. I went to the plant. I talked to a lot of the people there, and for them, it was a GREAT job! Safe, indoors, good worker protections, a good wage.

Part of me says that that's a good thing - I don't see why Americans deserve a job more than a Singaporean or an Indian. At least as far as tech jobs go, these are DESIRABLE jobs in other countries.

[eagler]

6. Not only traitors but slave drivers.

Forcing people to work long hours for little or no pay in order to benefit a few is SLAVERY. There is no possible way we can compete with China's 3 cents per hour. And do they have the right to organize and collectively bargain? We had most certainly begin to wake up or this is what we will become. The minimum wage laws are in danger of being eliminated and union membership is seriously hurting!

[brokensymmetry]

10. More than destroying the economy.

Destroying the ability of the economy, or of the people within America, to regenerate the economy. How President Kerry will turn it around, I don't know.

What happens when everything (and it's heading that way!) goes offshore? How do we recreate ANY capability here at home? We are transforming ourselves into a third world country.

Bonus question: what happens to the top one percenters when America can no longer protect them - and the world remembers recent history?

Dare I say...Ooops!

[Walt Starr]

11. Outsorucing is a very viable business tool when done properly

It's become "faddish" in the business world to outsource and that's the problem.

What should be outsourced are those areas which are not a company's core competency. for technology companies, this includes product lines that are to be shelved.

For instance, say software company A has acquired numerous companies seeking specific technologies to build new product lines. Old product lines that are considered to be not on the critical path for the development of newer technologies will still exist and contractual obligations to support those product lines for a period of time will also exist. These products are invariably planned to be shelved. The company in quesiton would be irresponsible to insource maintenance of those older technologies since they will be shelved anyway.

That maintenance must be outsourced while development of the new technologies is kept in-house, contentrating on the core competencies and the future of the company while cutting costs on mantenance of the dead-end technologies.

This is responsible outsourcing.

[Dookus]

12. good point, Walt

and this is often how I've seen it used in my experience in tech.

[Deja Q]

13. A logical and acceptable viewpoint.

However, this world is not ran with logic, rationale, or acceptable policies. I don't foresee any turnaround anytime soon. Analysts are predicting outsourcing is here to stay as much as they're predicting the cost of oil will soon become so expensive that it's not affordable to use.

Enjoy life while it lasts, that's my new motto.

[Walt Starr]

21. The problem is the "outsource or die" mentality

CEO's have bought into "outsource or die" to the degree that now they consider outsourcing core competencies.

That attitude is going to result in many companies losing their shirts because your core competencies are where your money is made.