Does anyone here have some real ideas on fighting terrorism?

[crushbush04]

I had a long conversation with my friends on the other end of the political spectrum about solutions and their general argument was that we have nothing to offer but complaints and conspiracies. I sort of gave them a break on the conspriracy talk because of some of the really weird shit I see here somtimes. However I think a lot of the discussion here IS substantive and actually adds to the overall debate.

So lets have some ideas folks.

My first suggestion is: diplomatically we must try some way to get Arab countries to participate in a legitimate formation of an Iraqi democracy. This must not be done through bribes but by convincing them we will lower our profile in the region if they do so. There are pros and cons of this strategy. Lets discuss them.

[mandyky]

1. We need to be fairer with the Palestinians

This whole terrorist thing started with the injustice we employ when we continue to support Israel, no matter what. The argument back is that Israel and Turkey are the only democracies in the ME. I dispute even that - if you are a Palestinian or a Kurd just how democratic are Israel and Turkey respectively...

Secondly, we need to encourage a speeding up of democracies in countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Jordan is doing okay as a monarchy, but we need to keep on them too. The current King of Jordan is great but if something ever happened to him, there's no guarantee the successor would be so benevolent.

[Sufi Marmot]

46. I'm not sure we'd like the results of "democracy" in Saudi Arabia...

They aren't about to adopt anything like our Bill of Rights, and I suspect that if the monarchy was removed the people would replace it with something equally repressive by our standards. Probably hostile to the west. And SA is probably the last place that an Islamic reformation is going to take place.

What I might recommend in SA is to encourage them to learn to take care of their own society, start training and employing more Saudis to do the jobs all the expats do now - spread the wealth around and develop more of a middle class there. Why do the Saudis import all those foreign guest workers when there is unemployment in the country? (currently ~10%) Can't they train their own oil workers and engineers?

Otherwise I'd switch to alternative energy ASAP and keep them at arms length with minimal relations with them for about 100 years.

-SM

[7th_Sephiroth]

2. yeah, we need to drop our support for israel

and actually build schools in the middle east instead of bombing them

[w13rd0]

3. Couple things:

1) No trade with nations that do not respect human rights
2) Strongly support efforts to give women everywhere rights and representation
3) kick the oil habit
4) crack down on companies that lobby and participate in human and worker rights violations in other countries and then expect to do business here

Iraq? Never should have been there. How are we going to convince other Arab countries? Entice them with an equal share in the raping of Iraq? Promise to lower our profile? Howzat? Ain't gonna happen, and if the US government says so, it would be wise to remember the promises of the emmigrated Europeans to the native americans. F'that. There's no way to pretty up that fat bastard of a pig. Bush is an asshat. He fucked us up, and he should get the same treatment, sans lube, in a federal pen.

[crushbush04]

36. I definately agree with...

the no trade with nations that do not respect human rights.

As a personal thing I dont buy anything made in China or opppresive countries. Its hard because the stuff is so cheap but I am not going to be a part of funding those regimes and I wish more people would join me.

I mentioned in one of my replies that the UN should only offer these dispicable countries limited membership if any at all and absoluely no chairmanships or respected boardlike postions.

As far as lowering our profile this is tremendous bargaining chip. Most of them dont want us there because we are a focal point of Arab discontent and might be destabilizing the entire region. The deal is the quicker Iraq gets under control the quicker we can leave so it is their interest that they get involved.

By the way, you suggest that we are raping Iraq. Tell me exactly how we are doing that?

[w13rd0]

48. Reply

"By the way, you suggest that we are raping Iraq. Tell me exactly how we are doing that? "

We are outsourcing the reconstruction of Iraq to other nations, and not the US. Halliburton and the other companies losing billions (whoops, they did it again) over there are hiring cheap labor and shipping it in. Combine massive unemployment with an occupying administration rife with corruption and cronyism...that's not a recipe for success, but it does yield a continued cash cow for those very same companies, and those connected. Insurance rates go up, don't worry, it's on the US taxpayer. Price for contractors goes up, well, we can hire cheaper labor or just charge it to the US taxpayer. Hand out guns and munitions to poorly trained "native" forces, and then they sell it on the black market, and return for more. Worry not, it's on the US taxpayer.

That's how THEY are raping Iraq. I must protest, for I've nothing to do with it.

[blm]

4. To start, Kerry plans on convening

the heads of every religious group at a summit where they work out a path to peace. Let's see what guidelines they come up with. It's an interesting addition to the peace process, that's for sure. Kerry has studied this subject for years and knows that religions and their leaders have a great influence on the cultures of their regions and their governments.

He also plans to give notice to the govts. of all nations that he gives them 100 days to open up their banking records to global antiterror agents who specialize in tracking terror funding. Any nation that doesn't comply, Kerry will NAME NAMES. People forget that Kerry investigated and exposed BCCI and he knows how nations fund terror and criminal enterprises. That was the crux of his 1997 book, The New War. Kerry knows EXACTLY where to look.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. #1: Buy Less Gas.

#2: Get Anyone with long-standing business and other shady ties to the Family Saud the hell away from the White House, unless they're there for a general public tour.
#3: Invest in a manhattan-style project to develop non-fossil fuel based forms of environmentally sound energy.
#4: Stop invading countries that have nothing to do with terrorism.
#5: Stop letting the CIA pull this covert shit that always blows back a couple decades later to bite us on the ass. That's not "conspiracy talk", that's a fact. Reagan funded the mujadeen and OBL used to work for the CIA.
#6: You can't "fight" terrorism, any more than you can "fight" drugs. You can try to infiltrate terrorist networks to prevent terror from happening, but if you continually alienate and enrage millions of people around the globe, "terrorists" are going to pop up willy-nilly like mushrooms after a spring rain. The way to fight that, it seems to me, is to stop alienating and enraging people, or at least examine the reasons (beyond facile idiocies like "they hate freedom") that these people are so po'd.

[mcar]

12. Beautiful response!

n/t

[StandUpGuy]

13. Yes if it was 1972

But I'm afraid its too late for that.

The U.s.a. is locked in a struggle for its survival.

No seriously.

The value of the dollar is tied to the u.s's ability to control oil. The National debt is in the hands of foreigners and that value depends on countries needing dollars to buy oil.

The euro is here to stay and the U.S is fighting in Iraq to save the empire from its creditors that WILL foreclose when they can get oil cheaper in euros.

To answer the original poster, my answer would be.

Revolt against the criminal corporate elite demand nationalization of oil and Military industrial complex and sell sizable assets to repay debt. Close bases worldwide and start from scratch.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Hah?

Well, I suppose it's a good thing that petroleum is an inexhaustible resource that is totally environmentally sound.

From where I sit, bub, the planet is locked in a struggle for it's survival, and the global petroleum addiction is the terminal illness. We're going to have to do something about it sooner or later.

[StandUpGuy]

18. Please don't bub me

I never said it was right, just or even feasible.

It is however what is going on.

The global economy is destroying the planet. Period.

Some people suggest we have less than 80years of breathable air if the consumption trends stay the same in the developed world and continue to grow in the third world.

So don't bub me.

Direct your contempt to the people that got us into this problem.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. sorry, bub. (Just kidding!)

If my response sounded flip, your first one did, a little, too.

But, no contempt intended. Really.

What you say may be a cogent analysis of the situation, and plenty depressing, to boot. However, as I see it, either we can try
a) to take realistic steps to deal with the situation as best we can, we
b) can do nothing, or we
c) can wait for the global revolution of the proletariat to sweep away multinational corporatism and finally usher in a classless planetary society.

I wouldn't hold my breath for "C", if I were you.

[StandUpGuy]

28. Perhaps it was flip I'll accept bub

Everybody always thinks that buy predicting doom I'm also advocating a "resistance is futile" approach.

I think that we need to inform people of the real issues we face not just bush lies and not just here on DU.

I photo copy articles and leave them in public places.
I believe that we need to reach a critical mass of knowledge so that the elite Fear the masses again.

Right now they ridicule us.

The threat of global revolution is as great as the act itself in my opinion.

When millions protested the War in Iraq the elite did nothing because the knew we were stuck in the past.The rules of democratic dissent have changed, and until we figure out how to rattle cages again we will continue to be pushed around.

[serryjw]

6. The ANSWERS are simple.........Bin Laden said them!

1) Get the hell out of all Arab nations including Arabia and Iraq
2) Give Palestine a Homeland
3) Tell America the truth that we have a REAL oil crisis and ONLY have 8 more years of Cheap oil
4) Stop invading Arab nations for the oil...and give Iraq back theirs
5) Lead the world in nuclear/bio-chem disarmament
6) Re-Join the world community and stop breaking alliances

We have spent $200 BILLION(so far!) on bombing the shit out Iraq and NOW the multi-nationals are going to get richer re-building it.....Can you imagine what we could have done to help the world community with that kind of money....water filtration programs, basic food, basic health care...and S>>>>>>L>>>>>>O>>>>>W the spread of AIDS......Yeh.that about says it all!

I can ONLY DREAM!...yeh..I'm sure JK wants to hear all this!Thanks for asking....now I can go cry myself to sleep.

[crushbush04]

22. So we should take heed to terrorist demands

Thats a great way to fight terror. Lets be serious here and start discussing real problem solving and stop the typical

First I dont believe the invasion was for oil,

Its not a silly argument and I can see where many would come to that conclusion but I just dont believe it...

This is far more serious than that because its based on a philosophy. One that believes that it is the purpose and destiny of the United States to violently spread democracy around the world. (read the writings of Richard Perle and William Cristal) I dont think this is a good way to go about creating democracy. Its creates more enemies than anything else.

I have major problems with this war and its consequences but I think its just a little to simplistic to say it was for oil or expanding "the Empire".

That conversation doesnt defeat the logic of their arguments for starting this war.

PS. For the record the Iraqis ARE in control of their oil industry and its profits

[serryjw]

59. All I can say is PLEASE start reading.....

It was 100% about oil...We need with the impending oil crisis in 8 years....and NO American has total control of the oil and we are not giving it back....Why do you think we are building 14 permanent bases in Iraq....We need them to protect the oil after we pull all our bases out of Arabia at the end of the year?

[mandyky]

7. Catching Osama may not be a good thing either

He'll be a martyr whether they take him dead or alive.

[Curious Dave]

8. Arrest and try bush

The day after Kerry and the Democratic majorities (in both house and senate)are sworn in we must:

1. Send armed federal marshalls to arrest bush and turn him over to the world court for trial as a war criminal.
2. Restore Saddam to power in Iraq - he may be a bad guy, but we had no right to remove him.
3. Start paying reparations and apologize to the Iraqi government and its people.
4. Stop all support to Israel. Put them on a time table to return all the stolen lands.
5. Immediately begin supporting the PLO politically and financially to the same levels we used to support Israel.
6. Start negotiations with AQ to address their grievances.

I know some of this will sound extreme to a lot of people, but contrast the extremity of my ideas with the extremely egregious record of behavior the u.s. had demonstrated in that part of the world.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. The only people who would ever put Saddam in power over anything

are the same people who "removed" him.

And I think if we want to talk to "al qaeda", all we need to do is ring up the Saudi Embassy.

[mermaid]

9. That Depends...

on what your end goal is.

A - Have them be willing participants in forging peace and alliance in a new world

or

B - Have them be a shamed, defeated, bitter, resentful enemy, always looking for a way to "get even" for what they percieve, rightly so, as injstice committed against them.

If your end goal is A...then you have to take a good look at unfair American foreign policy that has hobbled them, stolen their resources, impoverished and embittered them...and possibly change course. This, the current Administration describes as "rewarding terrorism" or "caving in to the terrorists" with a sneer...because they do not want to change the system that infairly benefits them and their buddies. They are relentless greedy self-aggrandizers, who will stop at nothing to gain power, prestige, and money for themselves, no atter who they hurt in the process...knowing as they do that they have a ready supply of poor boys (and girls) here in America that they can send to fight their war for them. If your end goal is A, then yes, you need to examine things like the disproportiante amount of aid and support Israel gets as opposed to the Palestinians, etc. If your end goal is A, then yes, you need to listen to their grievances, and address them.

If, on the other hand, your goal is outcome B...
Well, then, to start with, to fight terrorists, you have to start to think like a terrorist. And in your own way, ACT like one, too. Face it, those who benefit most in our society from this bullshit War on Terror are, themselves, economic terrorists! They deliberately create shortages and deprivations...they deliberately pit groups against one another to keep the masses occupied, so that no one will pay too much attention to what is going on behind the scenes.

Now, if your question had been...how do I protect myself from terrorists...I would answer that you have to start thinking like a terrorist. Example...
If I know (and 9/11 demostrates this) that terrorists would love to repeat 9/11, and hijack more airplanes and crash them into towers, and kill as many as possible...well, then...if I HAVE to fly...how can I fly in a manner that is least attractive to terrorists?

Me, on those rare occasions when I must fly (I drive everywhere if it is at all possible anymore, because I am terrified of flying since 9/11) I make sure to fly only on Saturdays and Sundays, when it would be least attractive for a terrorist to take the plane, siince the big buildings are more empty on weekends. Remember, they want to take as many as possible with them, right? I also book myself for flights with at least 2 or 3 connections. No long flights if possible, so that there is less jet-fuel on board...making the plane less attractive to terrorists.

Really, protecting oneself from terrorism is not any different from protecting yourself from thieves, rapists, etc. You do the best you can to think like your potential attacker...and then take what steos you can to make yourself as unattractive and difficult a target as you possibly can. You cannot protect yourself 100%. It isn't possible, really.

Now, if you are looking to protect yourself, long-term, from terrorism...you work to promote a government that seeks long-term goal A. This means you vote out the current Administration, who so obviously is working towards long-term goal B.

[eaprez]

10. What We Should Do.

End our 'no matter what' support of Israel - face it, we could put a lot more pressure on them if we wanted - the right wing that controls the republican party won't hear of it!

We need to stop dropping bombs and threatening these countries and start doing what we can to uplift these countries - so the people have hope. A "New Deal" for the Middle East. Money would be better spent that way than on bombs and armour --- .

Its not our freedom and way of life that is hated --- its our policies. Why can't someone just say that --- until they do we can never change course. As long as we refuse to change and act like a citizen of the world instead of the bully on the block the terrorists have plenty of reasons to act.

We need to stop looking at everything in the world through the lens of capitalisim. One of the things they resent is the importation of our culture. Things need to be done that serve the best interests of these countries and their people -- which may be in direct conflict with what's best for Wall Street.

Reduce our dependence on oil.

[TroubleMan]

11. End poverty or at least economic inequality and you've beaten terrorism

The roots of terrorism are a few extremists who are able to influence people who are desperate, because of poverty beyond their control.

Take Saudi Arabia for instance. The royals hog all the wealth and leave the poor out to dry. Saudi Arabia is one of the richest countries in the world per capita, but if you look at the average life of a Saudi, it really sucks. Therefore the Saudi people are very succeptible to influence from religious zealots. Saudi Arabia supplies a lot of terrorists.

Desperate people will commit desperate acts. It just takes a few slick talkers to get them to do the most outrageous acts.


Fighting terrorism with force is stupid. It's like trying to treat a broken leg by hitting it with a hammer - it just makes it worse. You need a cast to heal a broken leg. Economic equality (not saying socialism, per se, just giving every person an equal right to compete) is the cast to heal terrorism.

[crushbush04]

14. Idealistic but unrealistic....

Have humans ever done anything that would convince you that there will eventually be an end to poverty? Poverty will never end. There will, for the far foreseeable future, be haves and have nots. What cant be eliminated can be managed. That is a far more logical way the view poverty.

We, and when I say we I dont mean just the United States, I mean the developed countries of the world, must engage in honest economic building in developing countries.

Honesty means they should stop acting like credit card companies that do nothing but encourage debt for their own profits. The IMF and world bank have as much to do with the under-development of the third world as corrupt regimes.

The UN should get involved in the democracy and freedom creating business and give members who have oppressive governments limited member status. No chairmanships for dictators and oppressors.

They must be quicker in responding to humanitarian crisis around the world.

[TroubleMan]

21. You have to have something to shoot for

It may not be possible, but if the US made an honest effort at this and stopped going to wars over greed and business concerns, then it would reduce terrorism greatly.

You're exactly right about the WTO, IMF, and world bank. They are a cause of terrorism just as much as OBL.

However, you're slightly misinterpreting what I said, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my meaning. We need to have a war on poverty. Poverty will probably never be solved in my lifetime, but at least we can strive for worldwide economic equality. That means everybody having a fair shot - like a poor kid in Africa having the same chances as a Bush family member at having a comfortable life.

I cannot justify my standard of living here in the US, when it was built on the backs of disenfranchised women and children of another country. I cannot justify killing innocent people so that we can have materials to build every teenager a cell phone and we have cheap gas prices.

{starts singing "Harvest For The World" by the Isley Brothers}

You solve this inequality or at least make an honest effort to improve this situation - you solve terrorism - hands down. Until then, you will never beat it and it will never stop, because you would be treating the symptom - not the cause

[eridani]

17. Empower women and promote family planning

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/5458

All the countries that produce or sponsor what the West calls terrorists are characterized by high fertility and the low status of women. This is as true for the Palestinian territories as it is for Afghanistan, just as it holds true for the conflict-prone regions in Africa. A high birth rate does three things that make war and terrorism more likely.

In Bangladesh, the public and private sectors worked together to get pills and condoms got into every village. Safe, early abortion became widely available. The birth rate plummeted. When I first went to the area in 1968 families had six children; today they average 3.3. In one rural area of over 600,000 where Dr. Zafrullah Chowdhury has been working to train village women to provide medical services and help the community, family size now averages just over two; exactly the same as in the United States. This is a country where people live on a dollar a day, where three quarters of the women are illiterate and where a tragic one in 15 children die in the first year of life, but family choices have become widely available. Despite these social and economic deprivations, Bangladesh is a more stable, less violent country than Pakistan.

In Pakistan we have seen the opposite story. The government family-planning services were badly organized and the private sector was not encouraged. Everybody knew that abortions were common, but only a few were honest enough to admit it. The birth rate remained high and the population is exploding. Karachi is a violent, gang-ridden city. Pakistan is only slightly larger than Texas, and in another 25 years it will have almost as many people in it as live in the entire United States. It is likely to become more and more unstable.

The United States spends a billion dollars a day on 'defense.' Family planning is another form of defense, and it just happens to be one other people want as well. We should be spending a billion dollars a year on international family planning. If we did, it would do a great deal to create more pluralistic societies, with more opportunities for women and youth. In short, it would help to bring long-term peace and stability to our planet.

[crushbush04]

31. Excellent. contraception and managable populations

One problem though we need to stop putting this all on the US. That is one terrible tendency I see in DU. The US has made terrible mistakes over the past 50 years, but this country is not some great evil in the world. And is certainly not responsible for all the evil within it.

We cant blame the US for everything then turn around and ask why are we doing this alone.

The truth is this is a job for the UN and all developed nations as it is in their collective interests that these less developed countries monitor and control their populations.

Less population equals less taxing of the resources and environment equals less pollution equals healthier happier population.

Great idea.

[eridani]

49. Alone among industrialized countries--

--the US sides with Iran, Iraq, the Vatican and Saudi Arabia to block UN initiatives on population control.

[eridani]

19. Fully fund threat reduction

We need to track and get rid of all the loose nukes and other WMD, most of which are in Russia and other ex-Soviet states, guarded by bike locks and people who get paid only intermittently. Naturally the Psychopath in Chief cuts funding for stull like this.

http://www.coopcomm.org/nonukes/library/weinberg_on_nuclear_danger.htm

The danger is not that the Russians will get angry with us, or plan to attack us. The danger is that they will quietly adopt a cheap and easy defense against a preemptive American attack, by keeping their forces on a hair-trigger alert. This presents the US with the threat of a large-scale Russian attack by mistake during some future crisis; for instance, the Russians may receive misleading warnings of an imminent American attack and launch their own nuclear weapons before they can be destroyed on the ground. (According to Russian sources, it now takes fifteen seconds for the Russians to target their ICBMs, and then two to three minutes to carry out the launch.) This danger is exacerbated by the gradual decay of Russia's capabilities for surveillance of possible attacks and control of their own forces, a decay that has already led them on one occasion to mistake a Norwegian research rocket for an offensive missile launched from an American submarine in the Norwegian sea.

Even though the threat of a large Russian mistaken attack is not acute, it is chronic. It is also the only threat we face that could destroy our country beyond our ability to recover. Compared with this threat, all other concerns about terrorism or rogue countries shrink into insignificance.

This brings me to the one real value of our large nuclear arsenal: we can trade away most of our arsenal for corresponding cuts in Russian forces. I don't mean cuts to about two thousand deployed weapons, but to not more than a few hundred deployed weapons on each side, and with each side having not more than a thousand nuclear weapons of all sorts, including those in various reserves, as called for by a 1997 report of the Committee on International Security and Arms Control of the National Academy of Sciences.<6> In that way, although the danger of a mistaken Russian launch would not be eliminated, the stakes would be millions or tens of millions of casualties, not hundreds of millions.

Such cuts would also reduce the danger that Russian nuclear weapons or weapons material could be diverted to criminals or terrorists. Instead of seeking the maximum future flexibility for both sides in strategic agreements with the Russians, we should be seeking the greatest possible irreversibility on both sides, based on binding ratified treaties. We ought also to be spending more on the program, originally sponsored by former Senator Sam Nunn and Senator Richard Lugar, that assists the Russians in controlling or destroying their excess nuclear materials. At this moment, when the Russians are eager to improve relations with the West, when considerations of economics provide them with a powerful incentive to reduce their nuclear forces, and when for the first time they have a president powerful enough to push such reductions through their military and political establishments, we have an unprecedented opportunity to begin to escape from the risk of nuclear annihilation. It is tragic that we are letting this opportunity slip away from us.

[bobthedrummer]

20. The other day, on mainstream tv news I saw a 10 year old Arab boy

state he was ready to strap on a bomb-belt to die gloriously for Allah-that's how extreme the traitors in the administration of George W. Bush aka The War President have pushed it, although I do make allowances for fundamental Islam crackpots and parents too.

Our democratic values and our standing as the world's superpower have been contaminated.

I believe we are close to a form of fascism via a military private-enterprise coup fronted by Bush/Cheney.

When it comes to terrorism, real terrorism-I'm a LIHOP guy first and foremost.

Cui bono?

[crushbush04]

23. Love most of the replies...I like this...good ideas folks

The conspiracy stuff is at a minimum...You cant get rid of it all..

I wish I could bottle this thread and send it to the Kerry campaign.

[baldguy]

24. How about Liberty and Justice for all?

Let's not stop at the border.

[crushbush04]

29. Thats what Bush says he is doing but...

this thread is about logiclly convincing him and his supporters that there is a better way to go about this "spreading freedom" thing.

Gimme something to work with...

[manic expression]

26. We need to be

pro-active in fighting terrorism. It's not possible to fight hate with hate, for it only perpetuates the cycle of violence. If we give people a reason to like us, they probably will. We need to be as selfless and generous as possible to countries and people which need help the most. That will be a start.

[sphincter]

27. Violence breeds violence...

The best way of solving a conflict is by conversation. Two disagreeing parties need to find some common ground and then work towards a compromise.
We have all seen how well it worked between the Protestants and Catholics in the United Kingdom, where the England and Sinn Fein came to some sort of agreement.
Find out what "the others" want, start a conversation and bury the hatchet for a while, if not forever. Everyone, perhaps except for the weapons indusrty, will benefit from it, and our kids can grow up in a safer world.

[crushbush04]

30. So we should not...

1) Have started the revolutionary war?
2) Fought the civil war to free the slaves and preserve the Union?
3) Stopped the Barbary pirates from extorting our trading vessels?
4) Defeated Hitler in his quest for world domination and extermination of Jews?
5)Defeated japan after they attacked us?

Tell me was any of that worthy fighting for?

Or should we just have used harsh language?

Be real, sometimes you have to fight and the results dont always breed more violence. look at Germany and Japan what are the chances we will be going to war against them anytime soon? They were soundly defeated in WWII yet, nonwithstanding Germanys opposition to the war in Iraq, are two of our staunchest allies today.

To fight is not the problem but it is the victors treatment of the vanquished that determines whether their future relationship will be one of resentment or cooperation. This is a very serious time that demands not only idealism but something practical

I am sure the other side can match you with their own idealism and "vision". But can you match their verve to carry forward in practice?

Thats what we are up against.

[Curious Dave]

32. No we shouldn't have

1. The Revolutionary War was spearheaded by a bunch of wealthy landed gentry (many of them slave owners) who wanted to avoid paying taxes. Sorry to say it, but the founding fathers seem like a bunch of freepers to me.

2. The Civil War was fought against the south so it was probably ok.

3. Were these "pirates" extorting" our trading vessels or merely trying to enforce what in their day passed for legitimate local tariffs. Or maybe they were even trying to protect local markets and industries (such as they were in those days). Sounds like our own fight against outsourcing.

4. Hitler was evil and we therefore acted properly by taking him out... If thats the only reason we had for taking out Hitler, Roosevelt was no better than bush attacking Iraq. Because the same basic logic applies. I have never been able to follow the logic that says attacking Iraq was wrong, but WWII was ok. Sure Hitler was an asshole, but so was Saddam. That doesn't make it right for us to engage in unprovoked attacks of either country.

5. Japan.. Well they did attack us, but on the other hand we really sort of forced them to by politically and economically acting to limit their access to raw materials from the rest of Asia. We can't really claim to have been completely blameless in this.


Which all takes us back to the original question of fighting terrorism. We shouldn't be fighting terrorism at all! We should be trying to make amends for the evil that our country had forced upon the rest of the world. Do the "terrorist" hate us? They would have to be something a lot more or a lot less than human if they didn't. If I was them I would hate us too!

[TroubleMan]

33. Germany declared war on us first.

nt

[Curious Dave]

34. True, but

They didn't actually attack us. We attacked them first. I think Roosevelt was using the same "pre-emptive" defense BS argument that bush gave for attacking Iraq.

[crushbush04]

37. I think you have made your point

If you think all you said is fine so be it ...Who am I to try and change your mind.

It is always better to know what someone really thinks than to try and change their mind

I copied your first reply to show to my friends. You are already famous

I tell you what, it was the most spirited defense of doing nothing about oppression that I have ever seen.

You GUESS the civil war was fine. You even managed to blame the US for Pearl Harbour!

You almost sound like Kobes defense lawyer

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

41. You're right of course but

it's interesting to note that although no war between Germany and the US was formally declared, there was nonetheless a hot shooting war on the high seas. The US was supplying weapons, ammunition, and food to Germany's enemy Britain. And Germany was busy sinking US Merchant Marine ships all over the Atlantic, before Pearl Harbor. At least 240 mariners were killed in action before Pearl Harbor. These probably would have been considered acts of war today, even before Pearl Harbor. Just my small two cents, not adjusted for inflation:

U.S. Owned or Chartered Ships Attacked Before Pearl Harbor:

*SS City of Flint was seized by a German warship but her captain's diplomacy, and the intervention of Norway eventually freed the ship. Oct. 9, 1939
*El Sonador (Panama flag under U.S. charter) was torpedoed and sunk near the Shetland Islands on February 18, 1940. Casualties unknown.
*SS City of Rayville struck a German mine off the Australian coast. Nov. 9, 1940. Crew 1 killed
*SS Charles Pratt torpedoed on Dec. 21, 1940 (Panamanian flag, U.S. owned and crewed) Crew 2 killed
*SS Robin Moor torpedoed by a U-Boat in the South Atlantic. May 21, 1941. No casualties
*SS Iberville mine dropped by German aircraft in Red Sea. August 11, 1941. No casualties
*Longtaker torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on August 17, 1941. Crew 24 killed, 3 survived
*SS Steel Seafarer attacked by German aircraft in the Gulf of Suez. Sept. 5, 1941. No casualties
*Montana torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Sept. 11, 1941. Crew 26 killed
*Pink Star torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Sept. 19, 1941. Crew 13 killed
*I. C. White (Panama) torpedoed and sunk in South Atlantic on Sept. 27, 1941. Crew 3 killed
*Bold Venture (Panama) torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Oct 16, 1941. Crew 17 killed, 17 survived. This was a former Danish vessel taken over by the U.S.
*SS Lehigh torpedoed and sunk off the African coast. Oct. 19, 1941. No casualties
*Meridian (Panama flag under U.S. charter) was torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Nov. 11, 1941. The entire crew of approximately 38 was lost (4 of the crew were Canadian, citizenship of others unknown).
*SS Astral, a tanker, vanished, torpedoed in the North Atlantic. Dec. 2, 1941. Crew 37 killed
*SS Sagadahoc torpedoed in the South Atlantic. Dec. 3, 1941. Crew 1 killed
*SS Cynthia Olson torpedoed in pacific one hour before attack on Pearl Harbor, Dec. 7, 1941. Crew 33 killed. 2 Army passengers killed

[newyawker99]

58. Hi sphincter!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

35. STEP 1: Stop being terrorists ourselves.

TWL

[hansolsen]

38. Here are four such ideas --

So here are four ideas. Let me introduce them.

The first one is intended simply to buy time -- to avoid the dreaded escalation to the use of WMD.

The second is intended to spread one of the great institutions of democracy without demanding that countries implement democracy. The hope is that democracy will follow of its own accord.

The third is intended to restore some fundamental fairness and equity to the situation on the ground. This will do two things, IMO. It will put U.S. troops on the ground in Israel to help maintain the peace and enforce the original U.N. mandate establishing the state of Israel, and it will give Palestinians the best chance they have had to form a separate state they can be proud to call home.

The fourth is a call for universal sacrifice. It is time to tell the American people the truth -- there are immense costs associated with our policies in the world. We must step up to those costs now.

Are you ready? Here we go.

1. TWENTY FIRST CENTURY MUTUALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION:

George Bush has said this is not a war on Islam. He might have better said this is not a war on Islam yet. Maybe John Kerry can say it for him. I urge him to announce the next Presidential Doctrine declaring that the use of weapons of mass destruction on American soil, if ever perpetrated by Arab fundamentalists, and if ever done in the name of Islam, will be met with war on Islam. What we need now is the twenty first century equivalent of "Mutually Assured Destruction." That policy during the Cold War, however grotesque in enunciation, had the sublime beauty of being effective on the ground. It concentrated the mind. We now need to concentrate the Arab mind.
Put this in effect by dispatching the Marines to deliver this Presidential doctrine to every city and village on the Arabian peninsula. Have them nail it to the door of every Mosque. Include the message that in the event of war, every Mosque and every Mullah will be declared an enemy command and control center, and dealt with as such.
Drop a billion leaflets on the Arabian peninsula announcing that if a weapon of mass destruction is deployed against America in the name of Islam, no man will stand in Mecca for a thousand years. Go on Arab television and say the same thing, and say it in a tone of voice so they know you mean it. And say it in such a way that you clearly mean no disrespect for Islam.

2. WORLDWIDE SUPPORT FOR FREEDOM OF THE PRESS

Announce another, and even more important Presidential Doctrine. Declare every journalist in the world to henceforth be a United States citizen. Extend automatic dual citizenship to every journalist in every nation on every continent. Declare your intention to defend freedom of the press as a universal human right. Declare it your intention to protect these new citizens of democracy with the full force and might of American military power. Stand up and say it so they know you mean it.
Make it our business to know how every journalist in the world is treated. Make the spread of democracy the highest national priority, higher, for example, than trade, and GDP. Explain this new fact of life to our friends in international business. Explain it in a tone of voice that convinces them we won't forget our new doctrines in the morning. Threaten to sink a few of their ships on the high seas just for emphasis if they demur. Tell the CIA to stay out of the business of killing leaders we don't like and picking new leaders of our choice. Let democracy work its magic. Support universal freedom of the press and most importantly, be open to the outcome.
Immediately cease and desist from any further financial and moral support for authoritarian regimes in that region, or any other region for that matter. Announce that if regime changes on the Arabian peninsula disrupt the flow of oil, we will infer that to be a breach of legal contract and will then take whatever oil we need at a fair price. Smile when you say that.

3. ESTABLISH U.S. MILITARY BASES IN ISRAEL AND ENFORCE the ORIGINAL U.N. MANDATE

Declare a ten year moratorium and cooling off period for the Arab / Israeli dispute. We cannot allow this protracted religious argument to cost a million American lives for nothing. This is no time for four eyed geeks in Foggy Bottom to dither away to their heart's content. This is no time for dithering. This is no time for timid politicians to bow and scrape to the Israeli lobby. This is no time for bowing and scraping. This is a time for bold action.
Stop sending blood money to Israel and Egypt. Instead send the U.S. Army to reestablish and defend the pre 1967 borders. Send the Army Corps of Engineers to bulldoze the Israeli settlements level with the sand, every one of them. Tell Yasser Arafat that if there is one more suicide bomber we will pick up every Palestinian on the West Bank and relocate them to the caves in Afghanistan.
Declare Jerusalem to be an open city administered by the United Nations. Declare that it will remain an open city for the rest of this Millennium. If the Rabbis and the Mullahs and the Priests complain bitterly and wave their musty old books in your face, round them up en mass and drop them in the Mediterranean sea.

4. IMPLEMENT A UNIVERSAL DRAFT

Tell the American people the hard truth. Tell them that their safety and security is now not only dependent on the Marine Corps, but also on the Peace Corps. Make it our highest national priority to make friends with the world, and by that I mean the people of the world, not the regimes of the world and not the religious nut cases of the world. The weed of terrorism can only thrive in an unplowed field. We must plow every field, sow it thick with democracy, and pray that God rains freedom on the world. In freedom lies our safety.
In support of this goal, ask American families to make a great personal sacrifice. Institute a universal national draft. Require all young American citizens to give two years of their lives to national service. Send them throughout the world to every town, hamlet, and field. Set them to work outside under God's blue sky. Let them feel the sun and the rain on their face every day. And let them spread democracy and freedom every evening over dinner and conversation. You have a unique opportunity, Mr. Kerry, to ask this nation for sacrifice, sacrifice in support of a great goal. Do not squander that opportunity; do not be afraid to ask. Do not let the moment pass. If not this, what?

[crushbush04]

39. The first point is very radical

But I dont know how effective it will be against those bent on suicidal measures. I gotta confess though I like it and have thought of it as a practical solution many times. Lets those cheering for the terrorists worry about their own asses for a change. The more I type the more I love your first solution.

Extending freedom of the press to the nth degree is essential to freedom around the world. I am not sure how much the CIA is involved in killing leaders anymore. Although if they had a chance I know they would take a shot at the Dear Leader Kim Jung IL. Do I sense a little preemption in your solution? I am on the fence about that... You know the saying "An ounce of prevention..etc etc". But we have to be sure of the threat

I disagree on the sending of US troops to Isreal because I am tired of this "global policeman" crap. But I am for enforcing the UN mandate. It is the job of the UN to marshall forces to keep the peace and prevent genocide around the world. Its amazing that we dont want the US forces to do anything unilaterally but we call on them to guard and protect everybody. Let those fat-cat diplomats at the UN get off their collective asses and put down the call girl hotline and do their damn jobs.

I wouldnt mind serving especially if its for a cause of high national priority. The problem is a soldier can't choose his or her battles. Many a soldier has died at the whim of eager politicians. I like that in this era of its-all-about-me and total self absorbtion you suggested the idea of personal sacrifice. Bravo.

[DrWeird]

40. Here's a crazy idea.

Stop raping children.

[iangb]

42. Stop creating victims..........

Terrorism is the desperate response for those who see themselves as powerless victims of an oppressor.

Sure, there's plenty of people who don't seem to fit this profile (eg. OBL), but nearly all of his footsoldiers have been recruited either because they see themselves as victims or because they are motivated to help other victims.

Unfortunately the ongoing situation between the Israeli's and the Palestinians is, for most Muslims, the main driving force behind Islamic terrorists......even in Indonesia and S. Asia this is the main issue driving resentment of the west.

There are many other issues, but they remain periferal.

[foolmeonce]

43. i also think it begins and ends with israel.

the backlash of our meddling in the middle east will take years to outrun but our sovereignty from the other side of the globe is long overdue.

[ronabop]

44. Treat Islam's tenets seriously, for starters?

One of the four *pillars* of Islam is charity, specifically to widows and orphans. We're not talking about the occasional token dollar in the collection plate, we're talking about a serious commandment. While this doesn't seem directly contradictory to US policy, in practice, the largest block of foreign aid goes to one mideast nation, and it's not exactly helping widows and orphans, it's creating them.

So, here's what I'd do:
1. Cancel military funding to Turkey, Pakistan, Israel, SA, Oman, (etc.etc.)
2. Channel the above funding with massive humanitarian NGO efforts in the mideast.
3. Cut all of the insane budgets spent on US weaponry and defenses.
4. Channel the above funding with massive humanitarian NGO efforts in the mideast.

It goes back to 'why do they hate us'? Well, they hate us because we're insanely greedy, uncharitable with our wealth, and hostile towards any nation that we have no military alliances with.

-Bop

[MrPrax]

45. 'Arab countries'?

How pathetic...'long conversation''other end of the political spectrum'??? 'their general argument'

' I sort of gave them a break on the conspriracy talk'...oh jeez thx

what crap...

[crushbush04]

52. Whats your idea?

....anything...anyway to promote peace and prosperity?

Lets hear it...

[Must_B_Free]

47. Food, Clothing and Shelter

tend to reduce the urge for violence.

[DavidFL]

50. Rightwingers float plenty of conspiracies of their own...

and they don't apologize or give any ground on the "really weird shit" they come up with. In fact, they go out and write books about it and then show up on WorldNet Daily and radio programs like "Coast to Coast AM" peddling this crap. So why would you give them a break on that?

Many rightwingers believe Hussein was behind the first WTC bombing in 1993, Oklahoma City and the downing of TWA Flight 800, all in retaliation for the first Gulf war...

Some rightwingers believe the reason WMDs haven't been found in Iraq is because al-Qaeda moves them from location to location everyday or they were snuck over into Syria before the war (which doesn't say much for their faith in our defense satellites that are supposed to be able to see a license plate on a car)...

Many believe Bill and Hillary Clinton sold this country out to the Chinese, sold them nuclear secrets, Hillary had Vince Foster killed, Bill had the CIA assassinate Ron Brown, etc....

Some believe in the 'Bible Code' which is a theory that the Hebrew text of the Old Testament was encrypted by God into a code which only the supercomputers of today have been able to crack. They believe that it predicted Bush's selection in 2000, Sept. 11th, the Iraq war, etc....

Why give them a break on this kind of nonsense?

By the way, why would you want to give Bush and his supporters ideas? They already have their plan to fight "terrorism" spelled out here

[crushbush04]

51. You want to play conpiracy tit for tat...

go ahead.

Those idiots on either side living in the conspiracy netherworld add to nothing but their own paranoia.

In all their conspiratorial arguments, right wing and left wing, did you ever hear any of these nuts offer a solution to anything? Every conversation weaves a web of plotting deeper and deeper that only they have the map to get out of.

It sort of fascinates me that people will obsess over the minutae of each plot.

Check out the thread about Bush and his involvment in the Kennedy assassination

[DavidFL]

55. Nooooo....

but people are going to believe whatever they choose to and there's not much neither you nor I can do to stop it, so why get hung up on it? If they're stopped from talking about it on here, they'll only take it to another website that rightwingers will stumble across sooner or later. I view it as we're all adults here and we can make up our own minds whether to believe something someone posts on an internet BBS. What I didn't agree with from your post is the impression I got that the Left had something to be ashamed of, like CTers are the crazy old aunt we should keep locked in the attic in case company drops by unannounced when the Right has plenty of its own crazy old aunts they let run around in the living room.

You have every right to disagree with the posters on the Bush and the Kennedy assassination thread, or any other thread for that matter, but I don't think your dismissal of that topic as a wild CT means those posters should stop contributing to it because of how it may look to the Right. There are many things people post on here that I vehemently disagree with, but they have the right to their beliefs just as much as I have to mine; I just scroll past their comments or skip the thread entirely. Moreover, it's not my place to tell posters what they can and can't talk about on here.

One of the reasons I appreciate this site is because of the wealth of information it provides in one place and the ability to read the uncensored comments of posters because they may have thought of something that never would have occured to me, or they argue a point, which I may not agree with, but helps me see where they're coming from. That's the reason I stopped going to another political discussion site, which shall remain nameless, because the board's moderator and several posters took it upon themselves to start censoring any thread that involved a conspiracy theory, the topic of Israel/Palestine or any criticism of Kerry. The result of that policy was threads and threads of posters sharing the exact same sentiments, only worded differently, and there's nothing to learn from that.

[crushbush04]

56. I see where you are coming from

But Its hard to take someone seriously if they believe that Bush was responsible for the earthquake in Iran last year. (that was an actual jawdroppiing thread I saw last year) Can you take someone seriously if they believe Clinton killed Vince Foster?

I dont think this kind of stuff adds anything to the debate

I think it poisons the debate.

It can be entertaining. But so can Professional Wrestling. In the end its silly and says more about the conspiracy theorist than the accused conspirator. I dont believe in shutting them up or censoring them, I simply dont participate in those threads. I wish no one would.

I cant believe that criticism of Kerry is being censored. Is this a discussion board for what? This their website and they are the moderators but thats like taking your ball home when someone wouldnt pass it to you when you wanted. Gimme a break. I know freepers lurk among us but most critics seem to be constructive. I wonder about those who are doing this and what is their take on the Howard Stern issue or the current Whoopi Goldberg firing.

[rman]

53. start by preventing terrorism,

by not robbing (mostly weak) nations of their wealth.

Start by not taking it for granted that other nations should but US interests before their own.

Since it's to late for that, start by withdrawing from those nations, and withdraw support for governments that have been corrupted to serve US economic interests before the interests of the population.

I would advice against involving for instance Saudi Arabia and Pakistan in setting up a democracy in Iraq, since those governments are anything but democratic.
I could go on to argue that pretty much all of the 'free nations' are also not qualified to spread democracy. After all, where is the high quality education that is required for a healthy democracy, and where is our supposedly independent press?
What the heck do we really know about "governance by consent of the governed" - of what value is our consent if it is for the most part being manufactured by the powers that be?

[tranche]

54. i agree n/t

that's it.. i agree with this post (in most parts)

[lottie244]

57. Engage, respect, negotiate and get out of other peoples' countries.

Just for starters.

[mandyky]

60. Kick

excellent thread!