Is Bush's Mere Defeat in November enough?

[Taylor Mason Powell]

I've been wondering this lately: what if the only way to bring Bush to justice was to re-elect him? By this I am referring to a scenario similar to what happened to Nixon. The Watergate scandal was a-bubblin' and a-brewin' all throughout 1972 but it didn't get to the point where it prevented him from being re-elected. It wasn't until 1973 that the shit really hit the fan and Nixon was forced to resign in disgrace or face impeachment. (Please correct me if my history is wrong here.)

So, what if it were a choice between the following two scenarios:

1. Bush is defeated in November. All the focus shifts to the new Kerry administration, which doesn't exactly move mountains to prosecute the Bushies, and Bush fades off into speaking engagements before rapturous throngs of southern Baptists and such, and as a bonus he's made even wealthier by virtue of his corruption.

OR

2. Bush is re-elected and soon thereafter all the many scandals come to a head, and Bush is either impeached or forced to resign in disgrace and this whole administration is tainted with the stench of scandal forever.

I waver back and forth here. On the one hand, I want more than anything to see these thugs and criminals brought to justice for the evil they have perpetrated on America and the entire world.

On the other hand, it may be more important to stop the damage they're doing ASAP. I shudder to think about the effects of even 9 more months of this goddamn crap. What's more, even if Bush is impeached or forced to resign, that still leaves us with Cheney. They would have to BOTH go down, which is entirely possible given how up to their necks in evil they both are.

So, I don't know. I just fear that mere defeat at the polls in November isn't by itself going to be enough punishment for this crowd. They'll have gotten away with murder.

Of course, this is a pure thought-exercise. No way am I not voting Kerry! :-)

Thoughts?

[mandyky]

1. No - we have to take back either the House or Senate!

We can not afford to lose any ground in either branch of Congress, and we really need a definitive majority in one of them.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

3. I think we have a decent chance at the Senate...

But I meant in terms of Bush, Cheney, and the executive branch. Do we just send them home, without repercussions? Or might it be preferable to keep them there if that were the only way to politically destroy them for all time?

[mandyky]

13. Will Kerry have access to information?

While I'd love to see shrubbie go down in flames, we do not want to damage the Presidency. And we know how vicious the GOP is now, so we have to prepare for what they'd ever do to "us" in the future.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

19. Frankly, I don't think we could damage the Presidency

even remotely as badly as Bush already has...

as far as the GOP's viciousness, well, that's just a given. It doesn't make much sense to try to prevent it. Might as well try to prevent the Sun from coming up tomorrow!

[papau]

21. I thought Reagan would be impeached - and now I fly into his airport

I will be happy for the bird in the hand of a Kerry victory - and not wish for a plan to get the two birds in the bush.

[Warpy]

8. Yes, that's certainly one key

however, once Bush is out of office, the DOJ will be used to get the little bastard and all his band of thieves and apocalyptic nutcases on trial.

Kerry has taken on the Bush family twice before: once with the BCCI investigation and again with Iran/Contra. This is a good sign.

This country will have to bring these scumbags to justice if we're ever to get our reputation back among the international community as respectors of treaties, especially the Geneva Conventions. Nothing less will do.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

14. I agree.

As well as with the poster below who expresses similar thoughts.

I wish I could be as certain as you that the Kerry DOJ will go after these slimeballs. And I hope there's something I can do to help the process along.

[Nlighten1]

2. No it isn't but...

I guess we will have to accept the fact that nothing else will happen to Bush except defeat in the 2004 election.

[Literate Tar Heel]

4. if I were guaranteed

that Bush and Cheney would both go down in flames at some point in 2004 it would be worth it to me except that a Republican would still end up in the White House afterward (Hastert or frighteningly future Speaker Tom DeLay)

[Taylor Mason Powell]

6. You're right. It's too risky.

We'll just have to hope that Karma does what the Justice Department won't.

[clydefrand]

5. I, too, have such thoughts

but I believe that the best way is to get rid of him before he does more damage to this country. And I truly believe that they are so unscrupulous that they would, with all their money and power, never get punished for anything they have done. Better to get rid of the devil and his entourage.

[gristy]

7. If the BFEE is not vigorously prosecuted

by the House and the Dem Attorney General (e.g. Elliot Spitzer), then no, Bush's defeat in November is not enough. A message absolutely has got to go out to the BFEE, wanna-be members of the BFEE, and the rest of the world: That crime does not pay. If you break the law, if you lie, if you perjure yourself, if you participate in coverups, if you out covert CIA agents, if you direct the disruption of elections, if you direct the violation of international treaties to which the U.S. has agreed to, then you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and

YOU WILL GO TO JAIL

[serryjw]

11. Its not over...We may get our wish......

Indictments for Valerie Plame will bring down Chaney.....lets hope Bushit.

[merh]

26. And that the Democratic party has got to let the GOP and its agents know

that we are not going to roll over and let them get away with their crimes (and their crimes are many and they are varied and have been committed in each and every state in the union).

Kerry and his administration and the democratic party have to let the weed that would be king and his band of rethugs and the GOP know that we are not the party of forgiveness, we are the party of justice.

Vengeance is their main objective, our must be justice. We have to investigate and prosecute all who have illegally had their nasty hands in the GOP cookie jar of power.

No more closing of our eyes to the truth. The crimes that have been committed by the pukes in power, the crimes of campaign abuse, bribery, extortion, national security violations, profiteering, treason and war crimes must be prosecuted. Kerry and the democratic party owe that to all citizens of the U.S., not just the party.

We must stop them now and stop their plans to recover and recapture power.

[69KV]

28. Curious about DU jargon

What's "BFEE"?

Just wondering. That's a bit of DU jargon I don't know yet.

I have a guess but one of the words isn't fit for family viewing, here goes: "Bush's * Evil Empire"?

Is that in the ballpark? :)

[gristy]

30. Bush Family Evil Empire

G-pa Prescott, Dad George, Brother Jeb, and others. Welcome to DU.

[69KV]

35. Thanks

My guess was pretty close ;) And thanx for the welcome

[mongo]

9. As much as I'd like to see Bush on trial - I don't think it will happen

My main worry is the Department of Homeland Security. A whole cabinet level department stocked full of wingnuts loyal to a shadow gov't.

How effective is Kerry gonna be if he doesn't clean house over there.

[calico1]

10. I often have the same thoughts as you!

If, and I mean *if* I could know for sure that this would happen (Nixon like scenario) then I'd go along with it. But the more I think of it, the more I realize that things are very different now in many ways. I think back in 1973-74 I got the feeling that the GOP wanted to rid itself of the scumbags from within the party. Back then most of the GOP was still Moderate. No right wingnuts running the party and deciding policy. Sadly, the handful of Moderate Republicans that still exist today are known as trouble makers and renegades within the party, no longer what the party is about. I just don't think that if he got another term he'd ever see justice. So I think its better that he go. Look at it this way--history will be his real judge. Some of us may not be around but I really think he will be seen as the President that came close to destroying this country. I am satisfied knowing that---and the fact that Jeb's chances are pretty much dead. People will be sick of Bushes and not want another one in the WH!

[Eagle_Eye]

20. GET * OUT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!

While we are waiting for empeachment, he still has his finger on the nuclear button. Do you want to take that chance?

[newyawker99]

41. Hi Eagle_Eye!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[against all enemies]

12. Once he controls the Courts, it's all over.

He will never be investigated. The rigged the House, thanks to Delay, the Senate is probably theirs too, they own the media, once they own the courts he is home free, and we are fucked.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

15. It's true. The courts are the holy grail.

This is what's so infuriating about the "Dems and Repubs are all alike" crowd. Obviously these are people who (a) need a refresher course in the justice system, and (b) whose civil rights aren't in jeopardy.

[AndyTiedye]

16. I Know One Person Who is Voting for Bush For That Reason Only

Unfortunately, any kind of Watergate-like scenario requires Democratic
control of the House and Senate. Without that * gets away with
everything, and can expand his Crusade to the whole Middle East
and beyond. He'd start up the draft and conscript millions of us
as cannon fodder, and millions more to "maintain order" domestically.
He would pack the Supreme Court with fundies, and further gerrymander
the Congress so Democrats could never regain control again. Who knows
if there would even be any elections in 2006 or beyond?

[gollygee]

17. Right now, I just want him the hell out. n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

45. You and me both!

"Right now, I just want him the hell out." Welcome to DU :hi:

[No Mandate Here.]

18. We need to elect Kerry and a Dem Senate.

This is the best way to clean house. If we are DeLayed in getting the House back, that is all right. The best way to unDeLay itis to have the Senate and the Presidency.

[2Design]

22. catch 22 on this one....if Kerry gets in ...he inherits a really big mess

that the dems will be blamed for...the economy is ready to tank..with the interest rates having been artificially kept low....once bush is gone...greenspan will start raising the rates...housing will tank...and getting out of iraq is such a quagmire now......

we can't just leave because it can get worse and we can't stay because it is worse....

once we leave as donald trump said...they will get WMD and make sure we never get back in....

if bush is selected or forces his way in again....we are in a heap of trouble no matter where we live.....

there will be no justice anymore..they are trying to get rid of justices and their power now with the gay discrimination....after the election they will be after ever liberall out there.....

to waste the tax payer money on bush is a crime too.....and the problem is...just like sadaam...getting rid of the top dog does not get rid of the problem...of the 700 club and all media and churches who believe in bigotry, injustice, and the rest....

cleaning house has to be at all levels ....and they have a stronghold like leeches....

[jmowreader]

24. This assumes Kerry won't fire Greenspan

Alan Greenspan is able to completely fuck the Kerry administration by manipulating interest rates.

There have to be some liberal economists out there that we could use to get the country righted.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

27. I nominate Paul Krugman!

He's an economist by trade, right?

[whistle]

40. Yes, but not a federal reserve chairman material...

....he would piss so many people off we'd end up back on the gold standard, or in Krygman's case, he might use sea shells.

[NewJeffCT]

43. how about Rubin?

The guy that was Clinton's treasury secretary?

[BigLed]

23. No

a trial and conviction for war crimes and the rest of his miserable little life behind bars on display and then his corpse taxidermied for further display for the remainder of eternity.

Hmm. That might be enough.

[Disturbed]

25. Crimes.

Bush and his Junta have commited War Crimes and US domstic crimes. These criminals must be voted out and the prosecuted. The House and Senate must be cleaned out of Right Wing Vipers. Corporate Criminals must also be prosecuted and we must demand that the Plutocracy be dismantled. The entire Govt. must be scrubed of vermin.

[Bucky]

29. It's better for our democracy if we repudiate this regime by a vote

Counting on an impeachment/resignation scenario is a pipe dream. Conservative morals have degenerated far too far for your "re" election scenario to have a happy ending.

[MallRat]

31. Winning election is job #1.

Even if Bush AND Cheney had to step down, you'll still most likely have a Republican White House for the next 4 years because Hastert will probably retain his job as Speaker of the House.

Electing Kerry is the top priority. We have to stop the bleeding.

[Cerridwen]

32. Tried for war crimes . . .I have question...

I'm with the crowd that says the bush family and companies and connections be tried for treason and war crimes.

Only thing about war crimes, does that open our soldiers up to prosecution as well?

[bowens43]

33. It's a damn good start.....

[sendero]

34. Dumping Bush* is merely a start...

.... then we need to send about half of the Dem senate home so that the other half will understand that we don't need fascist appeasers any more.

Then we can figure out how we're going to:

1) restore a measure of fairness to the media, and

2) punish the bunch of lying asses we have there now.

[shraby]

36. Once we have the

White House back and hopefully some of the house and senate, Bush and co. can be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Then we need to have a constitutional amendment that says no President can pardon the crimes of a former administration. That will keep the Bush bunch from ever getting back in.
A few in his administration have already been pardoned once as well as some who are working in the background.

[burrowowl]

37. Re: is Bu$h's defeat enough

Go to Shujaal's cartoon section: So shall you reap on the home page of:

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

He has some other good animated cartoons as well. But I think he as well as many of us want to see GW more than just defeated. If he were tried and put in prison along with the cohorts .... just maybe the world could be set in a better course for all.

[OETKB]

38. Let's Take A Deep Breath

We must keep our eyes on the prize and it involves more than John Kerry or winning back the Senate. We need a skeptical informed populace who will put the heat on our government to reform itself. Our foreign policy, security, and intelligence responsibilities must belong to all branches of government with no domination by either political party. It must be made clear that we expect in depth, shared knowledge, full discussion, and well thought out consensus without partisanship. My question is---What do you think will bring this about? I have my own ideas, but I am more interested in reading your opinions.

[stevebreeze]

39. meaning no disrespect but....

what needs to happen is to make sure democracy can not be hijacked again. THAT should be priority one after Kerry Nov 2nd victory.

[NewJeffCT]

42. My guess is that a Kerry victory is not nearly enough

This is my guess as to what happens if John Kerry pulls off the upset and wins in 2004.

The Right Wing attack machine, which cut its teeth trying to tear down Bill Clinton, will start trying to undercut the Kerry presidency on the evening of November 2, 2004 and will really kick in to high gear after January 20, 2005. Several full fledged investigations into the death of the late Senator Heinz will be undertaken (Limbaugh has already implied that John Kerry had Sen. Heinz killed so he could marry Theresa...) . Then, there will be full investigations into every little thing that Kerry, his wife & children and Edwards and his wife & children do.

This will keep the Kerry administration so off balance, that they will not be able to accomplish much of anything. Couple that with rising interest rates, falling home prices and the Bush deficit, and the country will have 4 years of a stagnant economy while Kerry tries in vain to get our fiscal house in order. The RW attack dogs will compare Kerry to Jimmy Carter.

In 2008, the GOP nominates Jeb Bush, who coasts to a victory of a wounded John Kerry.

We have to prevent this from happening.

[terrya]

44. Impeachment and nothing else. If he resigns, he gets to keep his pension.

Former Presidents get a lifetime pension. Bush would get it if he resigned. He wouldn't if he was impeached.

[porphyrian]

46. No! Try them all for treason! - n/t

[Democracy Died 2004]

47. the defeat of bush

will be hollow unless we and hopefully the dems in control smash,burn,expose and make them irrelevant forever. We must insure that this country never comes under attack by these bastards again. In my opinion the repug party should be attacked and torn apart till it no longer exists and the people in it suffer the same consequences..Not a supporter of death penalty but the thought of some these guys being publically beheaded sure makes for a good image in my thoughts.<smack sorry was having a daydream there for a second>

[mandyky]

48. We need more media outlets such as Air America radio,

Democracy Now, and the rest. We have a long way to even up the Right Wingnut Radio Hate Talk.

[NewJeffCT]

49. or, more outlets for Air America

I can hear them out of NYC in Hartford, CT - but, only if I'm on the highway. I lose the signal when I get off the interstates... or, it gets drowned out by some religious station out of Ohio.

[mandyky]

50. As much as I love AAR

I think we need more voices, and somewhat more moderate voices. I'd like to think some Dittoheads can be turned around, but I am not sure they could transition from Rush to Air America - big culture shock there! LOL

[phatkatt]

51. Don't mis-underestimate the humiliation at being a one-termer

... just like Daddy!

'Course, I'd like to see him at the Hague!

[Geo55]

52. yep..

tear down his horrific machine....lead by example....let the light shine in our country.

('course I wouldn't mind seein' his nuts in a grinder)