Should airlines profile when screening passengers? Poll needs help

[mstrsplinter326]

This poll needs you!

Do you believe airlines should use racial profiling when screening passengers?

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/

[soothsayer]

1. I think it's insane that they are fined if they do so!

YOu can't randomly search more than two middle easterners, or something?

Bizarre.

[Norquist Nemesis]

7. All for one and one for all!

Why worry about racial profiling? If they're going to search, then search! Do it thoroughly, do it every time, and do it to every passenger!

There are a few things about this 'passengers' account that trouble me. For one thing, I have hard time believing that a flight attendant would come up and ask a passenger to write a description of another passenger because it would be too 'suspicious' for the attendant to do it. Also, if marshals were "all around" them, why didn't any of them go to the lavoraties and check things out? Why were groups of people allowed to 'congregate' in the back of the plane...let along anywhere? If FBI met the plane, why weren't ALL passengers detained?

Taken as a whole, the piece doesn't pass the sniff test.

[nose pin]

11. It's the training

Air Marshalls are trained to act like any other traveller until the shit actually hits the fan. To do otherwise would expose them as an air marshall, and open them up to being taken out before any attempt to take the plane.

You will never know for sure who the air marshall is until his gun is out.

I also know a few flight attendants, and they are not much better trained for this kind of thing than you or I. I can see them not knowing exactly what to do, and enlisting passengers to help in this way.

[MissAnnThrope]

2. After Reading That Article,

I never want to get on a plane again. It's bad enough my fear of flying started back in the 80s when I started having the same nightmare about planes crashing right before there would be a crash. It's bad enough planes crash from engine failure and other mechanical problems. But to know that a group of 14 men can do what sounds like a terrorist dry run and no one does a thing, or questions why a bag is nearly empty after returning from the lavatory is scary as fuck.

In general, I don't believe in the usual racial profiling, as in stopping minorities on the NJ Turnpike because they're driving an expensive car, so they must be drug dealers. Or stopping minorities who are in a neighborhood the cops think are too nice for them. But something like this, when we know there is a threat, is beyond me.

If someone robbed a bank and got away in a car just like mine, I would expect to be stopped by the cops for questioning, especially if they're out looking for the car. Just as, if someone who matched my general description committed a crime and I was questioned for it, I would take it in stride. The cops are doing their job in stopping me for questioning. Sure, I can be annoyed about it, I can tell them it's however long of my life I'll never have back, but the fact of the matter is, if I match the description, the cops have a duty to question me. To serve and protect the public.

Now, the TSA has issued warnings of dry runs. If a group of men is acting suspicious and leaving things in the bathroom and gesturing to each other, well, I would think that would qualify as suspicious activity and be worthy of checking out. I somehow don't believe they were assembling their instruments in there. Let's face it. If it was a group of teenagers in a diner acting like this, the staff would have called the cops and they'd all be searched and taken in, or at least asked to leave the diner.

There are so many things that are just wrong with this story. I mean, why didn't the flight attendants ask those men to sit down when it was time to strap in? If some drunk guy who wasn't acting like a potential terrorist did it, they'd be all over him and arrest him when the plane hit the ground.

While on a whole I don't agree with racial profiling, is it really racial profiling when there is a terrorist threat, when the TSA has issued warnings about dry runs, when you have a group acting in a suspicious manner, when you have a list of terrorists that they're trying to capture, etc. Or is it more, you match the description of the memo we got, of the people on the wanted list, etc? Let's face it. Syria isn't exactly a friend of the United States. So would it be racial profiling, or behavioral profiling? Especially when you're on the look out for a certain kind of behavior?


The entire bit about orthopedic shoes bugged me too. Not to mention, they can't check out artificial limbs? Those are two things that you could easily stick a bomb in. Recently, a friend of mine told me about how on a few domestic flights he took, they made everyone take off their shoes, except for the people wearing sneakers. He pointed out the shoe bomber was actually wearing sneakers. What is the point of these checks if they know they can get past screening in sneakers or orthopedic shoes?

Now this part of the article really bothered me:

"Our FAM agents have to have an event to arrest somebody. Our agents aren't going to deploy until there is an actual event, Adams explained."

Any actual event? What, a bomb has to go off and kill lots of people before arrests or questioning? What are the air marshals going to do? Make arrests as the plane is crashing? I can't begin to tell you what is wrong with that statement.

The facts are plain. A group of foreign nationals hijacked and killed a bunch of people. There's evidence they might try to do it again. This time with a bomb, which means they don't even have to announce a hijacking. They can just kill lots of people by assembling the thing on board the plane. If we want to get really nit-picky, they don't have the rights of US citizens, as they're citizens of other countries. We extend them rights as guests in our country and hold them to the same rules, unless they have diplomatic immunity.

Anyway, profiling aside the fact remains that if they're getting the components on the plane separately, using every day things that might be in anyone's carry on luggage, and modifying things like cameras and cell phones, would any preflight checks really stop them if they were assembling a real bomb? Would airport security make any sort of connection between the things in their bags? That's the really scary part.

[Heddi]

3. You say

is it really racial profiling when there is a terrorist threat

Well---

How about these apples:

Tim McVeigh was a white skinned, blonde-haired, blue eyed guy.

Eric Rudolph was a white skinned, brown-haired guy.

Yet I don't recall the police stopping white men when looking for these 2 individuals. I don't recall white guys being singled out in airlines, train depots, bus stations, and subway stops while they were loose (and Rudolph was on the run for a very very very long time)

So why is it that we're only concerned with "stopping people of interest" when they happen to be non-white?

And I suppose that it's never *really* occured to anyone that there are TONS of non-white CITIZENS of the US that travel around via air, rail, bus, auto, etc.

NONE of the hijackers were US citizens. They just happened to be non-white.

However, now we're going to 'racially profile' all non-white, non-black "swarthy" males who look a bit arabic or middle-eastern?

Doesn't make sense to me. It just doesn't.

Either profile EVERYONE as if they were a terrorist, or profile NO ONE. Just because someone has a 'unique' last name, or a larger amount of melanin in their skin should NOT make them automatically suspicious.

Could you imagine if every time there was a rape, if every man in the general vacinity was treated as if they were the rapist? Heads would roll. But because it's just 'those types' being profiled, then who cares? :shrug:

[MissAnnThrope]

4. I Think You Missed My Point

Did you read the article in the link about the suspicious behavior of the men on that plane? Their behavior wasn't normal and if any other group of men did something like that, a stop would have been put to it.

Now, in the cases of McVeigh and Rudolph, did they stop anyone who matched their descriptions when they figured out who they were looking for? I seem to remember that right after the Oklahoma City bombing, the news media was reporting it was suspected to be a Muslim attack. Then they got it right.

But read the article and tell me if you think those men were acting suspicious or not. Or if it's a case of white fright.

I believe everyone should be thoroughly searched before boarding a plane. Not just two people of each ethnic background. You are right, a white person can be a hijacker as much as anyone else. Airline screening is much better in other countries than it is here. Here, we don't seem to have the staff to completely search everyone, whereas, we should.

Airline security still sucks in this country. Hardly a week goes by without a report of someone managing to get past security with something they shouldn't.

Now, as far as your rapist comment goes. Should every man in the vicinity be questioned? No, I'm sure not all of them fit the description of the rapist. Should ever man in the vicinity who matched the description of the rapist be questioned? Absolutely.

[JayS]

6. But did they get it right? I don't think we will ever know. n/t

n/t

[MissAnnThrope]

8. Did who get what right?

And could you please tell me what n/t means?

[JayS]

10. n/t is short for no text. We will most likely never be sure just...

...who all was involved in the OK City bombing. Maybe if the FBI ever "finds" the twenty three tapes they list as evidence or the Secret Service ever explains their description of the contents of a security tape they say does not exist, then perhaps we will know.

[nose pin]

9. About FAM not deploying

On reading that, my take is that there were several FAMs on the plane, but they would not take action until the suspects took overt action, so as not to expose themselves. Several FAMs means that they were aware of these guys as potential bad guys before the plane took off, and were watching them. The bad guys were also probably watching to figure out if there were FAMs on board, and who they might be. It sounds like the action was called off at the last minute. The Suit probably figured out that they were being watched by armed marshalls, and that shooting would start if they did anything.

The flight crew was probably just trying to avoid any provocation, knowing that there were marshalls on board.

I believe this story, and suspect it was not a dry run, but an aborted attempt.

Then again, maybe it was just a Klezmer band...

I think profiling based on what country issued your passport is different than "racial" profiling, and is probably something they should be doing.

[MissAnnThrope]

12. Yeah, but...

If they've planted bombs, do they really have to make an announcement? Seriously, they don't have to do anything but press a button on their modified cell phone or camera. Which is the scary part.

If it was an aborted attempt, why they all released after questioning? What happened to the stuff that was in the one guy's bag? None of these questions get answered. I doubt they were putting together Sousaphones in the bathrooms.

I agree that profiling based on your country of origin is different than racial profiling. If a country has a terrorist history, it's a good idea to profile.

[geek tragedy]

5. Profiling is bad for security

If we start profiling "Middle Eastern looking" indivdiuals, they'll start using Pakistanis. If we start profiling "South Asian looking" individuals, they'll start using Nigerians and Somalis, at which point "African looking" people will start being profiled.

At that point, they'd probably start profiling Mexicans for shits and giggles.


And that's just the Islamists. Never mind the McVeigh crowd.