Here's A Thought

[OETKB]

The conversation goes on forever how to guarantee our voting rights. Here's part of the solution: LET'S GET RID OF THE SECRET BALLOT!!!

Why shouldn't we know what our fellow citizens think? This happens in Congress, in Town Halls, and should also happen on an individual basis. I can't tell you how many times when I was canvassing in NH for Dr. Dean, the reply to whom they were voting was, "That's a private matter!" The hell it is. So many people's agendas are cloaked on public policy and we need to have dialog. It is time to stop hiding behind this pseudo-right.

What say you?

[NMDemDist2]

1. i don't see that one flying IMHO eom

[gollygee]

2. Nope, don't like it

Your employer would know whom you voted for and could use it against you.

Some women's husbands would expect them to vote the way they want.

etc.

I don't think it's a good idea.

[Terran]

3. Bad idea

The Founders knew what they were talking about on that one.

[teach1st]

7. Secret balloting in the Constitution?

I may be wrong, but I can't find it. Also, according to accounts I've read, early voting in some areas in the U.S. was not private.

[Terran]

63. I guess you're right--my error

A 19th century invention, then? I guess I thought the secret ballot was something the 18th century idealists prized highly because it was almost non-existent back then.

[WMliberal]

8. the australian ballot was not used in the 18th and 19th centuries here

That's how Jim Crow laws and political machines worked so efficiently. When a black man went to go vote Republican, the local Klan was there to see (assuming a black man showing up to vote wasn't killed on the way...). In the north, political machines would print off filled in ballots in their newspaper that people could tear out and simply bring down to the polling place. Lots more cases... I'm grossly oversimplifying how elections were anything but secret.

[seabeyond]

4. know how our fellow citizens vote, i will give you a real

reason. living in the area i do, if it were generally known that i oppose bush and am voting against him, literally my husband would lose customers. ergo can lose business, hence, would be more of a challenge to put food on our table

and this isnt a maybe that he would lose customers, it is an absolute

so there is one reason i would like to keep the secrecy in place. with the strong and aggressive views of the right, many cant afford it. an employer a big supporter of bush, can find reason to dismiss person or not promote employee

[Rabid]

45. Good point

Better to make the almighty dollar than stand up for what you believe in.

Better you should hide behind the money your husband makes than make your heart be known.

after all, its all about that fat cash, huh?

[seabeyond]

52. dick cheney comes to mind, wink

you dont know anything about me. you dont have a clue what i do with my day all day. bah ha ha, wow, funny you. if you do half of what i do, you would see what i do, which leads me to you dont have a clue dude. it is a dude isnt it. lol

ya right...............

now you want to talk what i do do...........i am here. i do my part my way in a responsible manner, clearing throat,.........as i am taking care of mine (feeding) adn others...............

the arrogance? comes to mind

[against all enemies]

58. Gee, rather heartless isn't it?

Mr. Rabid, guess you don't care if someone can feed their family or provide healthcare for their love ones. Give this women a break, you can be the one that breaks down the walls. Pick up the torch and carry it, do it for those who can't.

[seabeyond]

60. ty and......no way i want need have to have a hand on the sledge

hammer too............ i am kicking ass. i am not doing as a single male, male or his/her way,.........i am simply doing it my way. that is what i call in question. the children i raise the home i create the taxes i pay the life i live. i too count, a lot, and when i sit amongst a bunch of white rich repug,......i say it in courage always, my way............not your way. and when i talk to the schools and cops and communities i do it my way. and as i raise my two brothers kids, cause they dont do it my way.........i then do that my way.

i am saying, dont be so quick to judge my contribution. i feel probably the time and effort i put in, i ma doing at least,.......well as much as some. to give all these children the confidence that the DO have the power to create change, and allow them to stay aware. a child sees so easily, just whether i encourage them to be courages enough to stay true, hey dude

personally i feel that a pretty important part

as i sit here in july deciding what school to put kids in, fundamentalist enviroment, and my role in the system. yup yup yup

my way not yours, doesnt mean i am not doing. to the poor mexican that may be confused to vote bush cause they are both texans.

i just shrug as i can go on and on with the abuse of the judicial i participate in aware, with another state, mental facilities, i mean dude being a mom, gotta be doctor lawyer and indian chief, along with pharmasist nurture

i dont have to apologize for what i do, i kick ass

example, did you learn anything. ut in the time and effort to show you how doing is everywhere in life, every moment it is ours to experience, our way

[displacedtexan]

5. Political Privacy is crucial.

Did you forget studying the Australian Ballot in school?

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Political_privacy

[calico1]

6. A lot of people wouldn't vote if their vote was

made public. Not a good idea, imo.

[OETKB]

9. Bad idea???

Some time has passed since the notion of the Australian ballot and yes I did study it in school, along with other subjects such as slavery, freedom of speech, etc.

Ideas are ideas to be discussed, not labeled good or bad to shut off the debate. Obviously I have hit a sore spot for some people, and guess what...your answers demonstrate how much freedom has not expanded in this country. We are suppose to represent progressive thinking on DU.

If your job or business or place in a neighborhood hangs in the balance by whom you vote for, we are in a sorrier state than I thought. Anyway your party affiliation is already on the public record after you vote.

No one is saying this should be blared from the roof tops. The vote itself would be done in private, but each vote would be attached to one voter. Coercian at the workplace, business, or social life goes on any way, at least in my neighborhood which is heavily Republican and conservative. My wife was even worried when I put out a Dean sign. Instead of brushing this problem under the rug, I don't think I have THE ANSWER, but certainly the fears you have brought up in the several posts bear discussing.

[seabeyond]

10. i have independent down

and i am not surprised with sorriness of state. was well aware of where we are at. wasnt so bad a decade or two ago. just has gotten so divided since, hey, about newt then escalated so with bush

[medeak]

11. very bad

live in tiny remote provincial thinking town. It's bad enough when I don't show up at republican dinners.

The internet is salvation.

[Iris]

16. Just because someone is affiliated with a party,

doesn't mean they are always voting for members of that party.

As for this society being in a "sorrier state than (you) thought," well that's pretty naive. The world has always had people who are more powerful finding ways to exploit the weak. We are fortunate to live in a time when that problem is constantly being addressed in one way or another but is in no way going to be solved any time soon, if ever.

[OETKB]

19. Pardon Me

You do not know me and characterize my thinking unfairly. I am starting a conversation to explore some thinking out of the box. I must say your pessimism is a little much. The right seems to have no problem expressing their views. Why do we have to skulk around to express ours out in the light of day? It's backbone time ladies and gentlemen and we have developed a risk aversive society because of our allegiance to "stuff."

[Iris]

22. "Thinking outside of the box"?

It's been thought of. See my post below. Read a few history books. Watch the news.

I'm not pessimistic in this regard; I'm realistic. There will always be people in this world who have more power than others, and of those people who have power, there will always be some who use it unscrupulously.

[OETKB]

25. Who do you think you are?

Let's be civil here. I read history as a hobby and am an avid peruser of this forum. It is you who is living in fear, not me. I am not talking about shouting this from the roof tops, but attaching a vote to a name just as you do with other confidencial or semi-confidencial transactions.

[Iris]

26. Well, in my opinion it is a bad idea.

And I base my opinion on things that have happened in the past with vote fraud as I have already stated on this thread.

Why don't you try to convince us WHY this is a good idea and HOW, if this idea where implemented, we could make sure that people aren't unfairly coerced into voting for a certain candidate or law or that people don't sell their votes.

[OETKB]

30. Now You're Talking

Why it is an idea to be explored:

1. By attaching a name to a vote it would add accuracy to the counting process.

2. Third parties or even major parties, if they so wanted, could concentrate on their constituencies, and develop support.

3. If people were more free to tell how they voted, maybe some of that polarization would melt.

4. Any abuses would highlight serious problems in the electorate and could be dealt with more directly.

5. We are the government and should not have to cower. It would be a strong symbolic gesture of our freedom.

6. The two party system, absent a parliamentary system(where they have usually have no problem expressing their opinion), needs some way of encouraging broader sharing of ideas.

[Iris]

31. All interesting points, but what with regard to #4,

how would these abuses be identified?

[OETKB]

35. Plain As The Nose On Your Face

It's called citizenship. That is what is so great about this DU site. By having the information you need, well documented, it is then possible to deal with abuses. We have to start holding our representives in all branches of government to be accountable for what they do. We have to know them better. There were recent votes at the FCC, the marriage amendment, Howard Dean's campaign where people expressed their outrage or optimism to stop intolerable law or promote more progressive ideas.

[fishwax]

44. People are free to tell how they voted

You're talking about forcing people to tell how they voted.

[LeFleur]

27. Do You Mean Make a Law REQUIRING That We Tell?

WE already have the freedom to tell how we vote or not to tell. Since I'm a firm believer in choice, I'd leave it at that.

There are two bumperstickers on one of our cars: Kerry for President and Vets for Kerry. Buttons on my purse announce my political stance. If I don't feel like telling some nosy surveyer, I don't. If I feel like it, I will. I like having the choice.

What is the problem?
Just a thought...how about servicemen and women who are "encouraged" to vote Republican. With the secret ballot they can still vote the way they want to vote because no one knows how they voted.
Nope, nope, leave the secret ballot alone.

In our State primaries we must declare which ballot we want! Hardly secret ballot voting. And I don't like it.

[IronLionZion]

12. my neighbors would shoot me

if they found out I support Democrats. That's high treason in these parts.

[Iris]

17. I'd have a lot fewer casual friends!

I've learned not to discuss politics in "mixed" company. I don't make assumptions about how other people vote, but I know a lot of people who do. I'm not willing to withdraw from society completely based on who I or another person is voting for!

[IronLionZion]

20. I hear that

Most of my friends and neighbors are conservatives and some are even wingnuts. I've survived this long because there is so much else to talk about. We keep politics on the down low.

[OETKB]

21. Vigilante Justice?

You can't be serious. You have never told anyone who you voted for or discussed your views with someone who disagreed with you? They haven't hung Molly Ivins or Jim Hightower yet in Texas or Mitt Romney for that matter in Mass.

[IronLionZion]

32. Only a select few know

The rest assume I'm a Republican like my father.

A good many knew I was for Gore but I kept it on the down low. And I never keep anything on my car.

[fishwax]

34. There's a difference b/w

voluntarily telling someone who you voted for and having it a matter of public record without your consent.

[OETKB]

37. We're in this together

How can we begin to make inroads if a government which depends on citizen input makes their views a secret. I mean you could always lie
and then drop out. As far as I know at Town Hall meetings people get up and express their views one way or the other. The vote is just another mechanism to do this. If you were making a team effort you can not have participants who are silent about what they think.

[fishwax]

42. You always have a choice to reveal your vote

And the way we make inroads is by providing safe environments for people to express their views and concerns. Not by making their votes a public record.

All your suggestion does is take away choice.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

13. I plan on standing there and announcing out loud

who I just voted for on November 2. I am acting as a "citizen observer" that day, too. The election judge in my precinct asked me to. I am taking a personal day that day.

And possibly the day after for the hangover from drinking too much in celebration!

[Iris]

14. It's been done.

There have been times in our history when you voted by colored ballot, so anyone standing around could see how you vote.

So, what you'd have is the opportunity for some people to sell votes and for other people to be forced to vote for a candidate because someone else has something they want or need - like their job.

Bad, bad, bad idea.


But welcome to DU!

[Geo55]

15. Why shouldn't we know what our fellow citizens think?

In a perfect , rational political world....no problem.
Reality on the other hand is quite strange and sometimes brutal.

[eaprez]

18. Terrible Idea

People then become subject to pressure via threats or worse.

[OETKB]

23. You are guilty of what you criticizing

Branding an idea terrible produces a non-sequitor. Is that your intention? If you disagree, let's hear it. Believe me I can handle it. Further what makes you think I have come to a final conclusion anyway? Isn't this process the constitution was suppose to preserve.

[Iris]

24. What's wrong with stating something bluntly?

Your idea is neither original nor practical and that is what this person said in his post.

[OETKB]

28. Ok I Will Take The Bait

This is not bluntness. This is, you are right and I am wrong. This is exactly what you accuse the other side of doing. This is the mantra of those who wish to squash dissent. You see I disagree with you and would debate merits and demerits of an idea, not cut it off. If you did not wish to continue, that is all right too. However I think no lesser of you and vice versa should be true. Look at the number of responses to this post. Almost all are opposed but they bring out some very important issues: We are afraid to express our opinion at times when we feel that we should be able to do so, and we can be also be hard on people who try to think out loud.

[gollygee]

29. Why don't you address some of the points people have made -m

as to why this is a bad idea. If you disagree with one of the reasons, give the reasons why you disagree. Don't just say we aren't giving the idea a chance. I thought about it and realized I've worked for more Republican bosses than Democrat bosses and some bosses would give their employees hell for voting against them. I also don't doubt their are spouses who think they're voting the same but vote differently. Also, there is no good with confidential voting to bribe people to vote how you want since you can't prove how you voted. If we knew how people voted, people would bribe people to vote in a particular way.

So now, why don't you address those particular points, and the other points people have brought up?

[OETKB]

33. OK Here Goes

I am against anything that instills fear. Almost all the responses have been about what they are afraid of in a nation that was formed to promote "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Are these empty words? Have we not advanced far enough to at least see how this would work. There has been much talk here about Diebold machines, Felon Lists, etc. I tend to take a broader approach instead of trying to stamp out each little problem which occurs. Political abuse is a perpetual problem, but we have to keep banging away at it. We are in Iraq today because opinion was squelched. If people were aware that they were not alone and could more easily exchange views I sort of think it is worth considering. You know giving women the right to vote and freeing the slaves was also thought to be not practical at one time.

[fishwax]

36. Having your vote made public record instills fear

That's clear from the reservations expressed in response to your OP. Having your vote made public instills fear of retaliation from neighbors. From spouses. Fear of losing friends. Fear of losing business contacts and contracts. Fear of bribery. Fear of coercion. If you're against things that instill fear, then it's time to reconsider advocating making the vote public.

[OETKB]

38. Topsy turvy

The idea is to relieve fear. Apparently bringing it out in the open bothers you. Maybe, just maybe, there is "nothing to fear, but fear itself." If everyone is in the same boat this eases the way. Isn't this what integation was all about. The fear, my friend, is already there. Just because the person who you think will harm you does not know your vote is prima facie evidence that you are afraid of this expression. Maybe we should be talking about how deal with the isolation from each other.

[fishwax]

40. Sure we should talk about how to deal with isolation

That's a fine goal. Forcing people to declare who they voted for is not a good solution. For a myriad of reasons, none of which you have addressed.

We should encourage people to speak up. They have that right and choice now. We need to seek out like-mindeds. Not by the force of law, but by choice.

If everyone is in the same boat, making them open to intimidation by conservative power brokers it eases the way? That makes no sense. And, no, that is not what integration was all about.

[OETKB]

43. Au Contrair

There is only one reason for the secret ballot and that is to try to stop, not eliminate, fear of retribution from whichever source. What other reasons do you see?

[fishwax]

46. I think trying to stop fear of retribution

is a pretty worthwhile reason. Better than any you've come up with against the secret ballot. :)

[OETKB]

51. Well then,

Educate me. What are the other reasons for a secret ballot?

[fishwax]

53. Other reasons?

Who needs other reasons? :)

[OETKB]

56. That's what I thought

End of conversation

[fishwax]

59. I just think the integrity of democracy

which is protected when people aren't afraid to vote, is a pretty significant reason. Seems to me you've got to come up with something comparative advantage before you expect additional reasons.

But if you'd rather end the debate, that's fine.

[PATRICK]

39. Guess when and how

you will see this happen. E-voting machines for starters have already be shown to have the capability of matching voter rolls to actual votes. I suppose that was fixed- as usual. When the opportunity for intimidation and mass peer pressure favors the bullies you have now provided your support and rationale for their cause- as if they need it.

Consider HAVA- a direct result of the 2000 selection(wrongly termed "fiasco"), which took such cries for reform and easily twisted them to vast new opportunities for fraud.

Yes open democracy is best, especially in small, healthy locales. In voting en masse or under the scrutiny of powerful influences(your boss, your customers, etc) it becomes obvious why privacy becomes even more paramount than in your sex life.

But in addressing one evil(as with HAVA) there is always a trade-off, and usually a trade-off those same threatening overseers want to spin again for their benefit. You will never have 100% security or anything else. It is a matter of keeping the system under constant scrutiny, review and accountability. A healthy lawn keeps out weeds- not the herbicides alone.

In any community I think there should the right to have a secret polling on certain issues. Note however, if that is not the norm how much pressure is brought to bear- and angry suspicions- on those who would request it if it were not normal.

The issue is irrational trade-offs and how absurdly far our studied naivete and confidence games have taken us so that now we almost a guaranteed duty to be robbed quietly- without fuss or accountability- so that surface confidence itself will reign supreme- though that eventually will only be the confidence of the dictator himself.

Little effort has actually been made to protect the integrity of the ballot- only its clean ease of collection and tabulation. The paper ballot improvement has been a flim flam machine glamor contest while the important issues have been worsened beyond the imagination of many of our pathetic officials.

[OETKB]

41. Got me started

How about then we give people a choice if they want it recorded in their name or not? I can hear it now---Those who vote in secret have something hide or become targets. Somewhere along the line courage has to creep back into citizenship. We've been taking whimpy pills for too long.

[fishwax]

47. People have a choice if they want it known

What's the benefit of having the government record it?

[OETKB]

54. OK

The government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from this earth. That's why.

[fishwax]

55. and how does that apply

:shrug:

[Wilber_Stool]

48. Thats like saying

Baptists should drink in front of each other. Never happen.

[OETKB]

50. Sorry, can't agree

That is a societal and cultural practice. I am talking about how our government should run. If we have to collectively decide on how to delineate and protect our freedoms and how we maintain security. We can not do this in a vacuum. Remember only 40 to 50% of people vote in national elections. I have always felt if you publically involved yourself in civic responsibilities, this should be a source of pride, not the reverse.

[Wilber_Stool]

61. What about

a husband or wife that keeps their mouth shut to keep peace in the family so they can just vote their mind when the time comes. Same thing at work. It might not be legal, but some people might fear for their job if some one knew how they voted.
(I spelled everything right the first time.)

[OETKB]

49. Thank You

As a new member to DU, this has been fantastic. I am really awake now. To have lively debate and disagree to further shape our thinking is just a great exercise. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would get so many responses. In the words of Mr. * "Bring it on!"

[against all enemies]

57. Republican husbands will beat their wives for voting for "women's rights",

bad idea

[Unperson 309]

62. Lose The Secret Ballot? NO! Here's Why:

The reason was brightly limned in 2000 in Florida. The reason happened again a month ago. Purging votor rolls of felons and, by a straaaaange coincidence, mostly minorities who tend to vote Democratic!

The shenanigans that went on, such as the Democratic office in one city having phone lines go down so they could not dispatch people to drive homebound voters to the polls. Batches of mailed ballots being lost. That sort of thing. Now... THINK of the chaos that would ensue if vallots weren't secret. How much easier it would be to "fritz" an election by programming machines accurately, to discount ballots from specific people! Instead of a hit-or-miss method of removing names from rolls (and catching a few Republicans in the process) they could target people precisely.

Not just "no"... but HELL no!

Do you think that there are NO real life consequences of being labeled a liberal?

Why do you think I post under a pseudonym? Without going into any specifics about who and what and where, let us just say that when I was out under my own name, speaking and posting on liberal topics, someone who is rabidly conservative found me.

Several people got involved, the police, my employer, and a whole LOT of misery occurred! It is why my number is unlisted, my address secret, my telephone screened and why I carry weaponry when I'm out and about. Had things gotten just a bit uglier, someone could have gotten badly hurt. As it is, we made a several hundred mile MOVE to make certain this person could not exact their personal idea of "justice". You do NOT spend upwards of $3,000.00 to sell out and move away on a whim. We sold the house for just under what we originally paid for it to get clear of this idiot.

Domestic terrorism exists. There ARE people put there who are willing and very capable of committing hate crimes against minorities and those of minority opinions. These are days when it can actually be dangerous to be known as a liberal. BTDT

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