Another view of immigration in the Southwest

[Snoggera]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2004/160704ifmexico.htm

If Mexico Has Its Way The US Will Become 43 States

The invasion of the United States by a foreign nation has begun, and many Americans are still not fully aware of it.

The invading horde is coming from Mexico and is gradually occupying vast sections of southern California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas. And unbeknown to most Americans, portions of Nevada, Utah, and Colorado are also on the Mexican drawing board for occupation.

These states make up the "northern" territory of Aztlan, the legendary ancestral home of the Aztecs who founded Mexico City. Today, the "Nation of Azlan" includes the above American states. And Chicano nationalists---who claim that these territories were stolen from them by the United States---are intent on conquering and reclaiming them for Mexico.

But who are these Chicano upstarts? They are the Mexican-Americans who do not consider themselves immigrants at all. Why? Because their ancestors have been here for 450 years when these lands belonged to Spain and Mexico. But with the Treaty of Guadalupe, which ended the Mexican-American war in 1848, these lands became part of America.

more>

--Does this seem like a bit of an overreaction with a hint of bigotry thrown in, or does it make any sense to anyone? I know, having lived most of my life in the southwest, that times have changed from 30 years ago, but I don't see this. Of course, I'm now in a rural ranching area.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. What is this?

there are Hispanics in every state of the Union. Go to Berryville, AR, and you find a large Hispanic population-to the extent that signs are bilingual. When I was a kid, there were Hispanics living and working year round in Michigan (my Hispanic cousins still live there, btw).

[efhmc]

2. Most of the Hispanics I know are long time citizens or long to be.

They are here to become Americans and not to make America Mexico. Of course many were here long before the anglos but that does not make them any more inclined to be part of Mexico. This is my take on the subject,speaking as one person and one who is not Hispanic.

[Snoggera]

3. I agree with your take on this

and think the former cop/deputy is a bit wacko. Again, I'm not in the front lines, though. Who knows?

[lanparty]

7. No, they weren't ...

If they came here from Mexico, they are brand new. One does not "inherit" their abode in a democratic society.

Beyond this, the Aztec empire of millinos had long since been conquered and dismantled by a shipfull of Spaniards. The people of Mexico are descended by their own so called "conquerors". Leave the Johnny English out of this one. Mexicans need to mail their Aztec reparation vouchers to Spain, not Washington.

[efhmc]

15. Where exactly do you live and how many Hispanics do you know

personally? I live in Texas and number huge Hispanics among my friends, business associates and fellow members of the community and the Democratic party. They are mostly citizens, many of their foremothers and fathers were a part of this state long before it was part of the US, some are naturalized, a few are long time legal residents (just like my German, French and Swedish friends). They are some of the hardest working people I have EVER known and are not looking for anything but to make a good life for their families. This type of article is meant to downgrade and categorize individuals and is not looking for solutions to problems, other than to blame those without power.

[lanparty]

25. I have plenty of hispanic frinds (some LEGAL immigrants)

And I know a LOT of hispanics. A Puerto Rican is my best friend.

Let me make it clear that I have no desire to denigrate hispanic people's. However, I have a firm belief that immigration should be well regulated so that it doesn't cause excessive disruptions in the job market.

If you come in the front door and become a citizen, wonderful, you're part of the family. But please don't pull this deceptive bullshit that just because one is against ILLEGAL immigrants than they are against IMMIGRANTS. This is simply not true.

We as a nation have every right to determine who comes in. The American dream was produced by a high amount of available real estate that led to a decentralization of power. Also, relatively low concentrations of population add to the relative strength of workers. Triple the population density and we will have a different situation.

I for one do not wish to live in a United States with 1.5 billion people. Even are liberal neighbors to the north understand this concept. They are fond of wide open spaces and don't won't to be over-run with excessive numbers of immigrants (especially Americans ;-) )

Many folks here are environmentalists and understand all too well the impact that urban sprawl has on our natural resources. Well, there is a motivation for urban sprawl. It's called POPULATION GROWTH. And every greenie who thinks that massive levels of immigration from groups that average 6 children per family are kidding themselves.

As a nation, we should be striving to stabilize our population. Otherwise, all the natural wonders and wide open space of our nation will be reduced to cul de sacs.

We as a nation cannot pretend that we can handle the overpopulation of other nations. Those societies (including Mexico) need to deal with their overpopulation at a cultural level rather than looking to the US to absorb their excess and unwanted peoples.


On to another subject. You say all these Mexicans are coming here to escape horrible living conditions and oppressive wages. However, you have to understand that a dollar goes a lot farther in Mexico. A vast number of illegal immigrants are merely playing the game of currency exchange. The earn US dollars in the US and send them home. In that respect, it's really no different than the contractors in Iraq earning $100,000 per year for driving a truck. They would get along JUST FINE if they stayed at home.

Unfortunately for Americans, Iraq is about the only place they can go play this game. And it's completely subsidized by taxpayers. Mexican illegals are depressing wages and STEALING from the American middle class. They are placing undue burdens on schools and often pay little or nothing into the school systems that must accomadate multiple children.

Don't forget that US taxpayers pay into the school systems for YEARS before their kids go to school. Illegals (if they pay ANY taxes at all) get off pretty light in the burden. Mexican women trespass the border while pregnant just to have babies birthed in the US. This costs the public health system MILLIONS because the mothers never pay.

Sorry if I look at the situation differently. To me, this is like a neighbor breaking in the back door of my house, eating half my food, sending the rest back to his house, ordering pay channels on my cable, using all my toilet paper and leaving it strewn throughout the house and justifying with a nominal bill for washing dishes. I guess I'm sorry if I don't think thats a "good deal".

BTW, Lou Dobbs RULES!!!!!!!! UNION YES!!!!!!!!

[sendero]

40. I agree completely...

.... I live in Dallas and I meet and work with lots of hispanics. Most, but not all, are here legally. They just want to earn a living, there are just no jobs in Mexico.

This article is so much horseshit. Guy is blackballed from the profession? Seems like for cause to me.

[Kanary]

4. Just the language says to me this is another scare tactic

Are you scared yet?

:hi:

Kanary

edited to say: It makes me increasingly angry that the Reich Wing is using more and more racial issues to divide this country, sew the seeds of fear and discord, and create problems where none existed before. If this isn't similar to what Germany did with the Jews, I have a hard time imagining what *would* be.

I'm angered that the Dems have been so spineless as to let this situation get this out of control, and to the point where it's now almost impossible to keep up with this constand onslaught of divisive attacks. And yet, where are the DEMs *NOW* speaking out against the fear mongering???? WHere are the spines? How long and how deep are they going to let this continue?

Where, oh where is our damned leadership???

[Snoggera]

6. Ahm Gittin' Thar!

This has some good statistics:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:0lYPRZHS5NIJ:www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-3.pdf+us+hispanic+population+percentages+by+state&hl=en

(It better, what with the size of that link!)

[lanparty]

8. Prison Planet doesn't represent the Reich Wing ...

... It's basically a conspiracy theory website. Most of it is occupied by anti-Bush administration information regarding the events of 9/11.

BTW, if you haven't noticed Dubaya has done an awful lot of pandering to hispanics. He proposed a general amnesty for Mexican illegals AND a guest worker plan that would effectively make the "guest" a permanent occupant without citizen rights. Both of these plans floated like a lead zepplin.

[Kanary]

10. The language says "fear" to me....... divisive, etc

Regardless of where it comes from.

It practically begs people to start seeing Hispanics as.........terraists

Kanary

[Warpy]

19. yeah, it's really stupid, too, since most of the illegals

that are caught here aren't staying in this area but are being shipped to the northeast and even to Canada.

I'm in New Mexico. I like Mexicans. They're wonderful, hardworking people and a helluva lot more polite than the average suburban Repuglican. Adding more of them here can only improve the civility of life. Too bad they're usually on their way elsewhere.

[lanparty]

5. Over the top ...

But he has a valid point. The government of Mexico is actively lobbying to give "free access" to the entire United States. They basically want to turn the American middle class into the previously non-existent Mexican human welfare system.

I dare say that the Mexican government has a policy of ENCOURAGING illegal immigration. One less Mexican is one less problem for them. At the same time, they are demanding payments from Washington from the accounts of people who have had their identities stolen by illegal aliens in order to obtain illicit employment.

We have to get REALLY serious about this issue. We wronged Mexico when we went hunting for Pancho Villa. We made a pact with the Mexican aristocracy that allowed them to continually suppress the Mexican peoples.

We need to REVERSE our policies. We need to CANCEL NAFTA and replace it with trade policies that DEMAND higher labor, environmental, sanitation and health standards. We need to stop propping up the psuedo-Democracy of Mexico and let the people run the country for a change.

In the mean time, we can make Mexicans rich by making ourselves poor. Unrestrained immigration is causing massive problems and eroding the ability of basic tradesman (carpenters, roofers, etc...) to make a living. They are depressing wages domestically, at the same time, illegals use public services for which they often pay no taxes.

As it is, we are stuck between humanists on the left who believe that turning illegals back is tantamount to human deprivation and corpratists on the right who actively seek to exploit indentured labor and drive down domestic wages. This situation CANNOT stand.

[Gin]

9. Saw a man on CNN ..I think from mexico ( he was past ambassador) who

was debating illegal immigration with a senator...his idea is that Mexico, US and Canada are all one big "region" not soverign countries with boundaries and borders...(that's a clue to their thinking..)

The senator said we should go after the employers both big and small and dry up the flow....the man from Mexico says...that will never happen.

It was an interesting show...and I think Lou Dobbs was the host.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

13. Are you sure you're not thinking of Nightline?

It was on the other night and fits your description perfectly. It was Congressman Tom Lantos versus a (former?) Mexican official whose name I can't recall but whose constantly flailing hands and fixed permasmile were incredibly distracting.

[Gin]

20. Yep..that's where I saw it......I am in favor of penalizing the employers.

g

[Taylor Mason Powell]

22. The problem with that is...

by "penalizing the employers" you're talking about entire industries - agriculture, hospitality, construction, retail...there's really no way to do it without destroying the economy. I'm in favor of earned legalization/amnesty for people who have been here for a number of years and contributed to society.

[lanparty]

29. Hold on a second ...

Are you telling me that there were no hotels before illegal immigration. Are you telling me that lettuce sat in the field to rot before 1975????? Are you telling me that no white people have EVER been waiters??????

These are foolish and senseless arguments. I'll tell you one industry that will NEVER be taken over by illegals. These positions are so prized that there are three year waiting lists just to get a job.

What field am I talking about ..... GARBAGE MAN!!!!!!!

That's right, the Sanitation Union is about the strongest union in the nation. They make AWESOME wages and have great job security. But the job LITERALLY stinks.

Let me ask you another question. How would you drive a golf ball collector on a course where they don't shoot golf balls, they shoot bullets, RPGs and IEDs. Temperatures on the course reach 125 regularly. Well, there is no lack of American truck drivers in Iraq making $100,000+ year. The WAGES is what makes the position desirable.

You see, all you have to do is pay decent wages and PLENTY of people want to do the job. There is NO SUCH THING as an occupation that Americans won't do for an excellent wage.

All Mexican illegals are doing is playing a currency game. The pay may suck if you plan to stay in the USA, but $5/hour is a killer wage if your sending it back home to your family in Cancun. Illegal Immigrants are effectively little more than scab workers. They come with full knowledge that they are barred from doing so. They come anyway because of the MONEY.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

35. So pay everybody more!

Great!! I'm all for it. If we can get Americans to take these jobs, fantastic.

That doesn't change my view that immigrants who have already been here for a number of years should have a chance to be legalized.

[slaveplanet]

38. Lanparty is right my friend

or should we open the gates for every foriegn national that wants economic refuge?

The nightline segment featured tom Tancredo-not Lantos BTW

//who have already been here for a number of years should have a chance to be legalized.
//

so we should then reward all those who broke the rules, who premeditativly went around the proper immigration procedures, that 100's of thousands are forced to wade through. What message would that give these new citizens??? that it better and quicker to cheat??
Is that your position?

[Taylor Mason Powell]

39. I disagree!

I'm so sick of hearing this line about how they "broke the rules," and how this "sends a message" yada yada. This is a weak argument.
Even a lot of serious crimes have statutes of limitations.

Secondly, in many cases a person IS able to adjust status even though they've "broken the rules," if they fall into one of the family sponsorship categories, for example. Like if they have a child here or marry an American.

Or would you rather there be 8-9 million people in this country that the government doesn't know anything about, has no statistics on, that are completely off the grid?

Earned legalization is the smart thing to do. John Kerry supports it and so do I.

[slaveplanet]

41. sorry

I'll rephrase it ....those who broke the LAW...Laws you an I must abide by as citizens.

I've had my brother and two friends marry foreign nationals so I'm familiar with the hoops that need to be jumped through.

//Even a lot of serious crimes have statutes of limitations.// this has a lot to do with evidence and fading memories. Country of origin does not fade , it's permanent and our lot in life. Allowing unchecked immigration for economic reasons is a death blow. I'm 100% behind immigration for political refuge. Pressure needs to be brought to bear on the leadership of countries that economically depress their citizens, even if was faulty US policy that helped create the conditions. That wrong needs to be righted.
Save for native Americans we are all immigrants, my great great grandparents emigrated through the proper channels. Just as most US citizens are required. That being said I'm against any child being deported that has spent a majority of his life going through a US school system. Legal or illegal. if this can be proven it should be grounds for legal status.



and Kerry should define "certain amount of time" and "and who can demonstrate good moral character"

a bit better.

those terms can be used as "inclusive" or "exclusive" and are too ambiguous for my tastes.

[lanparty]

43. We're all immigrants ... NOT ....

Nope, sorry. I was born in the US and my family were legal citizens. THEY were born in the US. I know no other home. I am NOT an immigrant!!!!!!!

I HATE that line. It's another Red Herring BS line that the advocates of unrestrained immigration use. An immigrant is someone who MIGRATES from one country to another. The vast majority of US citizens are NOT immigrants. They are born and raised American. That includes people of Latino, Chinese, Italian, African, English, Korean, French, Native, Russian, Semetic, Slavic, etc... anscestory.

I AM NOT AN IMMIGRANT. I have a great deal of respect for legal immigrants. But I am no more an immmigrant than I am the pontiff.

[slaveplanet]

48. If you

trace your family history(unless you're a Native American) If you go back far enough(Yes, even before the US was a sovereign) , you too will find your family members did immigrate here, forcibly or not. That's all I'm trying to point out....of course much of that happened when population was low and laws about economic refuge were far less stringent. The industrial machine needed to be fed. Go back further, it was the agrarian machine,and many other reasons like religious persecution. Look around, things are quite different today. We now have outsourcing! Allowing immigration for economic purposes in todays econonomy is nothing more than economic insourcing, and strict limits need to be established.
//Red Herring BS line that the advocates of unrestrained immigration use.//yes that is somewhat of a red herring, and the law needs to reflect that. I'm a staunch advocate of HEAVILY restrained insourcing, as well as LEGAL imnmigration. Check my past posts on this subject.

[lanparty]

42. You're right I don't want 8-9 million people here with undefined status ..

I want them to have a legal status .... DEPORTEE!!!!!!!

OK, yes I'm being fecicious as this is impractical. But legalizing those who have already broken the law will only encourage more to come.

The NUMBER ONE criterea that should determine who gets to stay is their willingness to submit to the law. We can have lotteries and of course young men and women should be able to earn their families residency through military service.

Beyond that I support aggressive measures to root out illegal occupants including:

1) Increased INS enforcement
2) Heavy fines for those who employ illegals
3) Bounties on information leading to the apprehension of illegals
4) Full delegation of INS authority to state police agencies.
5) Expidited deportation rules.
6) Heavy fines against those who knowingly harbor illegals. Revocation of resident status for green card holders who do it.
7) Aggressive advertising in Northern Mexico to discourage illegals from attempting the journey enforcing the notion that they WILL be caught and sent back.
8) Biomedical (passively powered) tagging of frequent offenders (2nd failed attempt) that will make these folks appear on electronic scanners and subsequent attempts at border hopping virtually impossible.
9) Amendment to the Constitution to make it so that those born in the US aren't necessarily citizens unless they are LEGALLY in the US. We are the ONLY country in the world that has this notion. Noble as it is, there is no more new frontier to steal from Native Americans.


Furthermore, we need to get TOUGH with Mexico and get a treaty that will allow INS agents to apprehend human smugglers in Nothern Mexico and bring them to justice.

Amnesty will only lead to more illegal immigration and will solve NOTHING. Instead of 8-9 million "off the radar" people, we'll have 20-30 million as Mexico aggrisively exports it's poor into the United States and starts profiteering from transferring illegals of all nationalities through the US/Mexican border.

[lanparty]

26. If it's one big state ...

... those shitty smog belching rolling accidents called Mexican trucks wouldn't be allowed to deliver cargo throughout the United States. They would have to conform to the same safety and environmental standards as American truckers.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Teamsters don't start forcing these trucks off the road (literally).

[Jack_DeLeon]

33. I wouldnt have a problem if that eventually happened.

There is a European Union, I dont see why a North American Union wouldnt happen someday.

We would need to get together and work so that our laws fit better together but I think it would be a good thing.

BTW the person representing Mexico in that situation was correct.
that will never happen.

Because it wont, if anything like that was ever proposed all these business owners would come out of the woodwork to lobby against it.

[Leilani]

11. Vincente Fox is using the U.S. as a pressure valve

for his failed policies.

Mexico money comes from 1. Oil income, 2. Payments sent to Mexico from U.S. by workers here, legal & illegal. That is money that would go the American workers, in most cases.

American wages are being held artificially low because of illegals willing to work for lesser amounts, & no benefits.

We are caught in a squeeze: they are exporting our jobs to 3rd world countries, or hiring 3rd world people here at home. We are losing our middle class for many reasons, but illegal immigration is 1 factor.

[Maestro]

23. With all respect I disagree

Wages are being held low because American owned companies continue to hire illegal immigrants and day laborers at rates that other workers would not entertain. The blame lays squarely in the hands of American companies willing to outsource and when not outsourcing seeking primarily Hispanic day laborers to do their manual work. Don't blame the immigrants. They come because American companies hire. I work with immigrants in my job.

[Leilani]

24. I agree with you completely..

I should have made that clearer in my post.

The powers that be, Fox, Bush, American employers are harming ALL workers, American & Mexican. They are simply using these people to keep wages depressed.

I was looking at it from an American point of view, but it is not the workers fault. Fox was elected to bring about huge reform, but he has done zilch for his people.

[lanparty]

28. The point is ...

That Fox is doing NOTHING to stop illegal immigration at the border. In fact, he's ENCOURAGING IT!!!!!!

OH, and please don't float that "anti-immigrant" red herring. My side is against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. As far as LEGAL immigrants are concerned, I consider them part of the American family. I don't care if they're skin is green and speak Zergish. If they come in the front door and follow the law, they're as American as anybody else and I would fight for them as I would fight for my brother.

[lanparty]

27. Foreign minimum wage !!!!!

We should cut Mexico off unless they can come up to 3/4 of our minimum wage. Thats the only way to help the Mexican people. The Mexican industrialists would have no choice but to capitulate.

Trading with slave master does NOT help the slaves. It strengthens their hand.

[SoCalDem]

12. This nut from prison planet is just that...a NUT..

I forget his name, but he's on the radio out here.. He's a survivalist "Art Bell-ish" guy...

Don;t pay too much attention to this stuff :)

[Taylor Mason Powell]

14. Is it Alex Jones?

I used to listen to him ocassionally when I lived in Austin. This was back in the Clinton days when all the talk was of Black Helicopters. The guy was completely fucking nutso but a hell of a talented broadcaster.

Post 9/11, I have to admit he seems a little bit less nutso. But only a little bit. Definitely someone to be taken with many many grains of salt.

[SoCalDem]

16. Yep.. Alex..

I did not hear his last name..His voice sounds like Bernie Ward, and when I heard him, at first I thought that's who it WAS..

That lasted about 1 minute..

He's a LOONEY :)

[Taylor Mason Powell]

17. Total Looney!

I didn't realize he was on in Southern Cal! In fact, I thought he was a local Austin guy.

[SoCalDem]

18. He's on KCAA (which also carries AAR)

I was hoping to catch some AAR programming, and got ole Alex instead :)

[midwayer]

30. Actually Jim Moore columnist from

Etherzone wrote the article.

Alex is quite the wild man but you might be surprised at the collection of documentation he has at his site as well as some of the things he has discussed in the past have actually come to pass.

He has had Bev Harris on his show several times and keeps up with current events pretty well while placing his unique spin to the issue which makes you think.

Has a couple movies out, one called Road to Tyranny which some say Micheal Moore may have even recieved some of his idea from.

His latest rant is about how they are starting a massive toll road campaign in order to control the masses "coming to your town soon"

I didn't feel comfortable with the Jim Moore article either.

Just some thoughts

[Bridget Burke]

21. The "invading horde" won't conquer Houston.

The Vietnamese won't let them have it. Neither will the Indians, Pakistanis, Nigerians, etc. In fact, our ethnic mix here indicates further mixture is in the future.

The Chicano/Tejano influence has always been strong & for reasons of geography & history will remain so. Many of our locals are proud of their Mexican roots--those who just arrived & those whose ancestors were here before mine. Some of the newest ones might plan to make some money & return home. But most of them want to make their lives here in the USA.

"Aztlan" was a symbol of pride in the early days of the Chicano Rights movement. It was not an actual plan to have part of the USA taken over by Mexico. There are realities that cross borders.

[CaTeacher]

31. I think we get great citizens from Mexico.

I see a lot of really good hard working people come over just looking for an opportunity. Too bad so many of them are taken advantage of--something needs to be done about that. I would not keep them out I think they are a real asset. But--if I were Mexico, I would be working to improve economics over there, so that they do not keep losing good hard working people to us. Why should it bother anyone that we have lots of imigrants? They are usually good citizens and good people.

[midwayer]

32. I know a lot of Mexican immigrants

many living sadly(illegally 2 families per small home) the problem I see is not with them, it's the employers who utilize and exploit there labor for low wages. It also causes pricing power problems within that employers respective industry.

[efhmc]

37. The ethnic diversity is ONE of the things I loved about Houston (and

the great food that goes along with that). Small town Texas life stinks.

[bigbillhaywood]

34. If it does make sense to anyone they should be banned from DU

[Blue Wally]

36. There is........

A "reconquista" group seeking to restore "Aztlan". They are a very fringe group among the Mexican immigrants, but they do exist. Are they a danger? Not unless they attract a far greater following than they do at present. They are not made up by the RW types, though the RW types do fulminate a lot about them.

[lanparty]

44. Democrats are SUPPOSED to be the party of tolerance ...

I find it distressing that one would not tolerate opposing viewpoints.

[Cleita]

45. So did they get this off the Aryan Nation website or maybe the

Storm Watchers? This has been said by KKK types in the southwest as long as I can remember. It's another scare tactic. Ooooh, all those people who speak a strange language will take over and marry our daughters. Oooooh.

I do live in a rural ranching area and it's still the white people who own most of the ranches and the Hispanics who work for them. No fear of takeover here and if they do, at least I speak Spanish.:-)

[lanparty]

46. KKKers also say the world is round ...

... it doesn't necessarily impune the message.

Every time ANYBODY speaks up about illegal immigration they're immediately branded with the term RACIST.

Well, I bet there are a LOT of black folk out there who have THEIR wages hurt as well by Mexican illegals. If THEY oppose illegal immigration are THEY racist?????

[Cleita]

47. This wasn't about illegal immigration, it was about

Mexico taking over our states, and annexing them to Mexico, like they could. It's scare tactics pure and simple. Not only that, the educated Mexicans, who could take over, aren't the illegals. The illegals are the poor and illiterate who think a minimum wage job is a good job compared to what they would earn in Mexico. They wouldn't want their system to replace ours in any way because they would be right back where they started from.

This is racial hatred that is easily spread because white Americans really believe they are the superior race and it truly frightens them when racial minorities could possibly have power over them. Believe me I know. I have lived with this all my life and I know it from both sides.