Oh come on!!! Girlie Man means Fag and you know it!

[trumad]

Let's not cut the Gropeinator any slack here. The term is certainly a derogatory/bigoted remark and if you don't think it is then perhaps you are in need for some er sensitivity training!

[redqueen]

1. Don't guys have daughters?! Don't they learn?!

This is making me TOO CHENEYING MAD!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Thanks Trumad

[underpants]

2. or

[SaveElmer]

3. Just a joke.

Whether it's funny or not is another question. When they were doing the skits on SNL I though they were funny!

[northzax]

5. right, but there is a serious difference

between satire and reality. those SNL skits were making fun of the meatheads who used terms like 'girlie man' Arnold was using it to make fun of real people.

Frankly, I don't think it's a big deal, BUT, it certainly shows a pattern of behaviour by the gropenator

[redqueen]

10. Wow... you mean there's a difference between comedy and real life?

Who knew?

:grr:

[Khephra]

8. The phrase was funny when it was done in a comedy skit

It's not funny when coming out of the mouth of an elected official, who, we would hope, should have more sense.

Even in the skits it was supposed to mean gay men. Gay then, gay now...but the context of it being used as an attack against one's political rivals makes it disgusting.

Would we forgive any politician for calling a female opponent (of any party) a "bitch" just because Dave Chappelle uses the word for comedic effect? I highly doubt it. Same should go for an anti-gay/effeminate men joke.

[VelmaD]

14. You'd be surprised how many on DU...

seemed to have NO problem with calling women republicans (like Condi Rice or Ann Coulter) "bitch". :eyes:

[Khephra]

16. No, I wouldn't.

I've been here since June 2001, remember. ;-) Also notice what a shitstorm the use of that word always causes.

I never use the term as an insult. That's all I'm responsible for here at DU, thank goodness. I screw up enough as it is.

[Khephra]

21. On edit, let me add that I shouldn't have used the word "we"

when refering to DU as a whole. My mistake. There really is no WE except when it comes to Bush hating.

[trumad]

18. Not me... I changed my ways after reading from DU women

that it offends them... Live and learn and hope you change for the best. That's how I'm raising my kids...

[VelmaD]

28. Thank you

:hug:

[redqueen]

35. Thank you, Trumad.

And God bless you for teaching your kids how to make the word a better place.

:loveya:

[wryter2000]

36. Luv ya, trumad

:loveya:

[Goldmund]

34. What does this have to do with "girlie-men"?

"Girlie-man" is a type of an insult that stems from the conventional disdain for daring to break stereotypes. There are many similar insults, the most obvious equivalent being "tom-boy". It is just as bad in their eyes for a man to be "womanly" as it is for a woman to be "manly". In other words, you shalt stay in the box where we put you, goddamn it. Act like we tell you. And that is why I find this comment... well, it's not like that half-assed moron really can offend me, but I do find it really stupid.

On the other hand, "bitch" is one of the most colorful words we have, and can be, and is, used in a shitload of contexts that don't imply any bigotry at all, and I will keep using it (enthusiastically may I add). Besides, it's not my fault that Condi is a bitch. But let's not get into that clutserfuck of a discussion again.

[redqueen]

39. "Tom boy" is not an insult

Women have been given permission by society to enter the workforce, compete in sports, etc. In other words, for women to posses masculine qualities is A-OK! Being masculine is fine.

Conversely, society has not seen fit to give men permission to be stay-at-home-dads, display emotions like affection for other males or sadness, etc. The message: for men to possess feminine qualities is BAD! Being feminine is unacceptable.

We should all be breaking these barriers down.

[Goldmund]

40. "We should all be breaking these barriers down."

Amen sista.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VelmaD]

41. If you can't think...

of a more intelligent way of expressing your disagreement with Condi Rice's behavior and policies than calling her a gender slur then you are pretty pitiful.

[Goldmund]

42. Sorry, what can I do?

I can only work with what God gave me...

[VelmaD]

45. buy a fucking thesaurus

They have lots and lots of words in them. Some of those words aren't even sexist.

[Goldmund]

48. Sorry again

but you don't define what thesaurus definitions are. To me "bitch" is not a sexist word. It has sexist origins, as does, for example, "cunning", and is still used in sexist contests by some, but it has evolved far beyond that. I'd certainly never use it in a sexist context. For that matter, look up what Gloria Steinem has to say about it. And in general, obsessing about what words we use is one of those things that annoy me to no end.

So be a little open-minded, eh? Accept that to some, some words have different connotations than to others. In the circle of people where I hang out, we even use the very word "bitch" for men as well, meaning the same thing as it does for women.

And take a chill pill. As I said, I'm really not into getting into the Grand Bitch Discussion again.

[VelmaD]

51. Guess what...you're in it again

If you didn't want to be then you shouldn't have responded in the first damn place.

And guess what, as a man, I don't give a damn whether you think "bitch" (or any other word) is sexist or not. You aren't the one having to deal with sexism every day...so your opinion means exactly SQUAT.

[Goldmund]

53. My opinion...

...means that I will use the word in my own vocabulary. After all, that is the extent of its jurisdiction. I'm not trying to force you to start using it -- though the opposite isn't true. My opinion may mean "SQUAT" to you, but that's alright, because it was designed to govern my behavior, not yours.

What I responded to originally was your parralel between "girlie-man" and "bitch". I didn't mean to get into talking about "bitch" again. Dig?

[VelmaD]

54. Well, first off...

I didn't draw the original parallel. But that's not the point because the easy acceptance of sexist language on this board is a personal peeve of mine anyway.

Frankly I don't care if you stop using the word "bitch". But know that the fact that you do use it and see nothing wrong with it will be remembered by many people around here.

I have said this before and it bears repeating. When something you do offends someone and they tell you it is offensive and you continue to do it anyway...that says something about you.

[Goldmund]

58. "that says something about you."

It does. I agree. Absolutely says something about you.

If everyone backed off from anything anyone around them considered offensive, we would probably walk around wearing uniforms, with same haircuts, and draw phrases from a 256-word inventory. And then somebody would get offended at the dreariness of such a world, at which point it would self-implode.

On Edit: the parallel I was refering to is your post #14.

[VelmaD]

59. What it says about you

when someone tells you you are offensive and you don't change your behavior, is that you are intentionally offensive.

And I think you are perfectly aware that I am not advocating the kind of bland world you are talking about. All I am saying is that intelligent human beings are perfectly capable of expressing themselves without resorting to name-calling. And calling someone a "bitch" is name calling.

Oh, and my comment in post #14 was a response to kef bringing up "bitch" in post #8.

[Goldmund]

63. Sorry about the #14/#8 issue

you're right, I didn't see that.

"when someone tells you you are offensive and you don't change your behavior, is that you are intentionally offensive."

This sentence has a hole in reasoning you can drive a truck through. What you're saying is basically that anyone at all has the power to come and change your behavior, otherwise you have an offensive intent. Extrapolate that philosophy globally and apply it generally and you will have the kind of bland world I was talking about.

Calling someone a "bitch" may be name-calling, and I would never think it's a valid instrument of conversation -- as in, calling the person you're conversing with a "bitch". And in that context name-calling is simply a product of weakness. If I met Condi face to face, I wouldn't say "hey, you're a bitch, so fuck you!" or something.

But outside of that realm I see nothing wrong with name-calling. We do it all the time. We call Bush Chimp, we call Arnold Gropenator, we call people "stupid fucks" and "shitheads" and everything else. No, it isn't the most eloquent or the most fact-based method of expression, but not everything has to be. We're human. We have general feelings about people and we take pleasure in sharing them, good and bad. Most important of all, if we lose spontaneity we've lost warmth. If "bitch" is what comes to my mind when I think of Condi then I won't censor myself. Even if it may rattle some bones. You'll survive, it's cool. Better look out for the sweet-talking flower-bying door-opening meal-paying gentlemen out there, they seem much more dangerous than I. I don't even mind when they call me "girlie-man".

[VelmaD]

65. Looks like we are fundamentally different human beings.

When people tell me something I said or did is offensive...I try my best not to do it again. I don't go around most of the time trying to offend people. I particularly don't want to offend on accident. (Though sometimes I will accept the karma for offending on purpose.) And I think it you ask around you'll learn that I'm about as far from being "bland" as it's possible to get.

There is also a fundamental difference between calling someone a shithead and calling them a bitch. Shit head is a gender neutral term. Bitch is an insult that demeans women just because they are women. This difference has been discussed to death already in previous threads though and if you don't get it yet then talking to you about it is likely a waste of time at this point.

[Goldmund]

95. Maybe I don't get it

and maybe I have come to a different conclusion than you. That is a possibility, isn't it? And if that is a possibility, then your argument about the fundamental difference between "shithead" and "bitch" based on gender-neutrality or a lack thereof falls apart. I've already told you that I use the term for men as well as for women, and that I'm as far as they get from accepting any gender stereotypes, and let alone gender chauvinism. I've gotten into arguments on this very board with people who were claiming that the male and female brains are fundamentally different; even that very suggestion is repulsive to me. Asymmetric courting rituals are repulsive to me. Gender roles themselves are repulsive to me. And those abound in our society and are much more implicit of gender inequality than is a mere use of words. Do you get as offended when a man opens the door for you _because_ you're a woman, or when a man won't use profanity around you _because_ you're a woman, or when a man insists of paying at the restaurant _because_ you're a woman, or any of the other examples of gender-dependent courtesy that nobody seems to consider offensive? And yet, to me, they reek of the attitude that males and females are fundamentally different human beings, and as long as that attitude exists, there will be inequality; after all, "separate but equal" has never been a working idea.

And therein lies the flaw with verbal rigidity. Somebody who uses a no-no word immediately raises red flags in your mind, while whether you accept it or not, their use of the word can come from a plethora of possible attitudes. At the same time, the whole world is full of inequality hidden in the most benign behaviors which are not defined as offensive, and which many women even enjoy -- whether you're one or not I don't know. Verbal rigidity is as unsuccesful as any litmus test is when applied to human nature.

And by the way, though I don't know you, from your posts I can tell you're not bland. I never meant to suggest that. I meant to point out that this kind of a rigid attitude on words and avoiding offense at all costs can be extrapolated into a bland world, which I thought would be as disagreeable to you as it is to me.

[VelmaD]

96. Yes, I actually do find all those behavior offensive.

The one that annoys me the most is when they always put the check in front of the GUY at the restaurant. :eyes: Gender-dependent courtesy is offensive for pretty much the reasons you described.

Something for you to consider though. You may use "bitch" to refer to men...but think about why it's an insult when you call a man that.

[Goldmund]

105. I know what you're shooting at

you're refering to the use of "bitch" to refer to men that is the uber-version of "girly man", often used in gangsta culture. That's not the way I use it to refer to men. I usually use "bitch" to mean something like "one prone to bitching", "one easily irritable and hard to please", "bratty" or something like that. I also use it as an expression of light-hearted grit and hopelesness, as in "life is a bitch", or I can call people bitches when I think they're a certain kind of mean -- not the heavy, dark kind, but more like the unreasonable, unreachable kind. And I mean the same thing when I refer to women. I never felt the urge to call Condi a bitch, because I think much lower of her than a mere "bitch". But my point was a general one on verbal rigidity, not a specific one on Condi. I use plenty of words whose origins I find repulsive. "Gay" is a good example. I say "gay" in certain contexts to indicate a specific kind of corniness. One of my best friends is gay, and he himself uses it. I didn't invent the word, but I know of no other to indicate what I want to say -- and even if I did, if that word is what spontaneously floats out from my mind, then so be it. I'm a child of this culture, and many aspects of this culture are repugnant to me; but if I strip myself from some of the expressive devices that the culture has developed, then in principle I will impact my ability to express the substance I need to. And that ability is a very relevant thing if I'm going to be a vibrant, productive part of this culture.

Speaking of the check in a restaurant, you know what else really pisses me off? When they bring wine, and then they poor a little bit for me to taste, and never for a woman if one is with me. I make it a point to pretend like I'm not noticing that the wine is being poored, and then when they look at me wondering what's going on, I feign surprise and do a sheepish "Oh! Sorry, but poor some for her instead". It always embarasses them a little bit.

[redqueen]

52. How is 'cunning' sexist?

The etymology I saw said it was from ME 'to know' or 'can know'

:shrug:

And yeah, bitch is sexist and it will always be sexist. Do you use Gypped? Jewed? Anything worse?

[Goldmund]

56. Sure, I use all kinds of words. It all depends on the context, situation,

how well the person I'm with knows me, whatever. There are no absolutes. I don't ever get hung up on words. It's the attitude behind them that matters, and also, it's so boring to always be so direct and straight... sometimes you put a filter of some kind of irony, some twist, and you use words in fluid ways. Saying "Word X means Y and whoever uses X is a Z" seems so rigid and robotic to me. "Bitch" in particular is one of those words that has progressed waaay beyond its original meaning.

Cunning comes from "cunt", because women were perceived as cunning. Cats were also perceived as cunning, and hence you have "pussy cat". Both phrases are obviously as sexist as it gets.

[redqueen]

66. I get what you're saying

I call my sister a bitch in jest. She's my sister. I'm joking. When it's used as an insult against something, is it really so hard to grok that that's a *completely* different situation?

It's absolutely tragic how much of our language is steeped in hate and the will to dominate. I refuse to ingore the insults inherent in language.

[Goldmund]

99. It's different when it's an insult, yes

But the difference doesn't (necessarily) subsume a gender-based attitude.

You're right, it is tragic how much of our language is steeped in hate. It's historically tragic. If you or I were linguists we'd be able to sit down and find that if we were to filter our vocabulary of terms that originate in hate, we'd probably be left with the vocabulary of a 4-year-old. But you know, it's not my fault, and it's not your fault. There are many equivalent examples of this in language. I'm an atheist and I use "god-given", because I don't know of a term that better fits the substance I want to express in certain situations. Or, have you ever red a book on Big Bang? It's pretty funny to read the verbal acrobatics Steven Hawking has to resort to to try to explain that before Big Bang, there was no time. There was no "was". "Something" didn't come out of "nothing". There's always been something, but before this something there was nothing, not even time. So there's no "before". You can't even say it and make verbal sense, because our language developed with the assumption that time flow is universal. You have to work with what you're given.

For that matter, the very ground you walk on and the very house you live in are afforded to you only because there was a genocide of American Indians. The lifestyle you enjoy is partly a consequence of limitless free labor during centuries of slavery. There are all kinds of historical injustices that resulted in the world you live in, language included; but you know, you didn't commit them and I didn't commit them and we _wouldn't_ commit them and we have no reason to feel constant guilt. I know of no other word that has the same fluid nuance, the same bite, the same wit, in certain contexts as "bitch" does, and whether you admit it or not, it has evolved far beyond its origins.

[scottxyz]

106. "Cunning" doesn't come from cunt - it 's related to "know"

I think the word "cunning" is more likely related to "know", "kennen" (German for "to know"), "connaitre" (French for "to know") - that whole "cogn-" root in English words like "recognize" and "cognition".

I believe the word "cunt" is related to "cuneiform" - wedge shaped.

[slinkerwink]

72. to me, the word "bitch" used against another woman is sexist

there's no way around it.

[Khephra]

44. You say "Bitch" doesn't imply bigotry and then say you don't want

to get into it, defending your use of the word, while questioning my use of it in an example.

Yeah, lets not get into it. I can see that it would be a waste of my time trying to explain my above post to anyone who doesn't see bigotry in the word "bitch".

[TeacherCreature]

83. bitch is a term that means female dog

good for breeding.

But go ahead and continue using it. You give yourself away when you do.

[Bunny]

47. and not only republican women either.

but that's a subject for another thread!

[noiretextatique]

4. THANK YOU, trumad

you know...nothing pisses me off more than some people ignore of make excuses for the language of these facsists. the rw has done much damage with its use of language...it's time to stop letting this stuff slide.

[Solly Mack]

6. Yes, the term is meant to be an insult

both to women and gays


It suggest that somehow women are weak and frivilous...and by implication...that the men the term is used against are weak as well...."weak as a woman" to be exact. It panders to sexists notions that somehow women are "the weaker sex"...frail, not as strong, not as sturdy..somehow less... and comparing a man to a woman under that sexist definition is definitely homophobic. Because homophobes have always attacked gays as being "women"...or "less than men"...which suggest that men are somehow better than women.

it's a sexist and homophobe slur no matter how you slice it.

[Khephra]

11. Not just women and men

But any man who isn't "macho" enough. You don't have to be gay to have a "girlie man" insult thrown at you...and it hurts the same way as it would for women or gay men.

[Solly Mack]

19. You're absolutely correct

it's applied to anyone that doesn't meet the bigots definition of "manly."

Thank you for bringing that up.

"Your husband is a 'pretty boy'", or so other men have called him. The implication is he's not all man or too pretty to be straight...

[Khephra]

27. Personally, I hate insults of any type

But Bush and the Radical Right keeps on getting the best of me.

Happy zen thoughts now.

[Solly Mack]

37. Don't let'em, khephra

Don't allow anyone to define your own self and what it means. They can't get the best of you...because the best of you is beyond their ability to grasp.

Happy zen thoughts always...

[Khephra]

49. Right back at yah!

:loveya: !

[Zolok]

7. Arnie should talk

bodybuilding is the like the "gayest" "sport" you can think of...
And just how many budding homosexuals tossed off to cheesecake pix of a well oiled Schwarzenegger posing in his scanties??
And just how many plastic surgical proceedures has Arnie booked in the last ten years to force his aging steroidal husk into looking like a svelte forty year old?
If I were he, I'd keep my mouth shut....
:)

[Khephra]

13. David Cross has a great bit on one of his cds about

bodybuilding. Check it out if you get the chance. I wish I didn't have to be so vague, but I don't want to give away comedy bits to people who haven't heard them yet.

[bobbieinok]

9. putting men down by calling them girls or women was

discussed at one point in this recent DU thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2006088

I think Mari333 was one of the ones discussing this

[spanone]

12. He meant they were a bunch of pussies. He's sooo clever.

[trumad]

15. I always use the Clenis test

meaning...If it was a Democrat calling a repuke a Girlie man the Repukes would be in a serious lather....

[noiretextatique]

yes, indeed...they'd be calling for his resignation

if he was a democrat.

[KamaAina]

23. Actually, they'd be circulating recall petitions

which, if der Gropenfuhrer, Riordan, et al. keep (further) fouling the air with this kind of crap, may not be a bad idea, actually...

[Malikshah]

17. Right on Trumad

And anyone who exuses Nazi Jr.'s use of the term ought to come down to Fort Lauderdale and use the term in Chains, Lords or the like.
You'll see how "funny" it is then as you pull a 3-foot wide buttplug out of their choice of orifice.

It is a derogatory term that is unacceptable in adult conversation. End.of.frikkin.story.

Nazi Jr. needs to be publically pilloried for this.

[matcom]

20. Girlie Man means A Cigarette?

who knew?

[trumad]

22. snarf

Can't smoke fags in taverns anymore can ya?

;-)

[Khephra]

29. Don't ask for "rubbers" in the UK either

:evilgrin:

[readmylips]

24. Ahhnnld mean girly like Maria....(not a woman)...

Maria the robot stepford wife. Gropernator is trying to cleanup his language by using sissy words when we know, he has a sewage plant for a mouth. Go ahead Ahhnold....make our day...say it in your regular language....they are fags and pussies, just like all the women you have assaulted in your lifetime.

[LittleApple81]

25. ARNOLD IS A THIRD GRADE BULLY - said right on CNN!

by Art Torres (Union rep. from SF police--I think).

He was referring to his remarks on 'girlie men'. he said he invited Arnold to come to SF and test his biceps...Arnold just wants to privatize all the services for the people of California.

Woodruff was incredulous: YOU called the governor a "third RATE bully"? Art says, "NO, I called him a "THIRD GRADE BULLY" and I am not going to talk about his acting ability...that is a theme for another interview..."
Woodruff said, still unbelieving, we will let that stand on the record...

[NuttyFluffers]

26. just makes the whole situation funnier when...

ahhnold gets his political ass beaten down by all the "girlie men."

let the jokes begin!

"Tushie tender? The girlie men squeezed too hard ahhnold?"

"Were you wore out by girlie men ahhnold?"

"Aww, can't sit down? Girlie men tanned your hide good?"

[wryter2000]

30. Thank you!

And not only that, it's sexist as all hell, too. Insulting a man by comparing him to a woman is misogyny, plain and simple.

[Beacho]

31. He used the same term when referring to Lloyd Bentsen

Who, unlike Ahnold, is a decorated veteran, winning the Distinguished Flying Cross and Air Medal in WWII.

He was a jack ass when he said it then, and he's a jack ass for saying it now.

It really makes him look pathetic and out of date. Back in the eighties, the 'Golden Age' of the one liner, it was funny.

Not anymore

[Mr_Spock]

32. Is it me, or does this kindergarten cop just keep reusing sorry lines

from his old movies? ...and then wonders why people don't take him seriously?

[Khephra]

38. Reagan got away with it

That's their role model, remember.

[wryter2000]

43. The Gipper

from his old movies? ...and then wonders why people don't take him seriously?

Ronald Reagan made a whole political career of regurgitating lines from his movies.

[redqueen]

46. Didn't that guy confuse his movies with reality?

*sigh*

Can we make a talking point out of this?

[Mr_Spock]

80. And to this day I think Reagan was the stupidest president (until Bush)

we ever had. The accounts of his own people telling him that what he was saying was wrong, and him just ignoring them, are hilarious. These morons want to put an idiot moron on our good money. They have no standards for decency (lol).

[terrya]

33. It's pure gay bashing...which is interesting, since pro bodybuilding...

the sport the Governor used to be involved in, isn't really the most heterosexually motivated sport around. I mean, let's face it. :-)

[Endangered Specie]

50. I thought it meant "pussy"

and would hence be a sexist term

Perhaps its both.

[zaj]

55. This thread and others on the quote are a waste of bandwidth...

This is just stupid... It was an SNL reference and a self-mocking, harmless joke.

There are many other bigger issues to bitch about.

[matcom]

57. DING DING DING!!

oh wait. you said "bitch"

YOU SEXIST ASSHOLE!!!!!!! :eyes:

j/k of course ;)

[VelmaD]

60. I have said this before...

and I will say it again. I am sick and tired of being told that my concerns about sexist language are "stupid" or "silly" or "a waste of bandwidth" or whatever other way y'all can come up with of saying "sit down and shut up".

One would think it is obvious from the number of reples to the posts about the quote that some people on the board do not consider it a waste. No one appointed you the bandwidth police.

[matcom]

61. why not have REAL concerns when it comes to this subject

as i said in an earlier post....

bet you ALL laughed your ASSES off when it ran on Saturday Night Live during the 80's

there is PLENTY of "sexism" out there. REAL sexism.

just because a repuke says something stupid, don't make it a federal crime

[VelmaD]

62. Matcom we have discussed this before...

and I will thank you not to decide for me what is and is not worthy of my concern. You don't get to decide what qualifies as "real" sexism. Sorry. No one died and gave you that job.


And just so you know, I didn't watch SNL in the 80s because it sucked ass.

[matcom]

64. yes we have

and once again, you are accusing people of being sexist when they aren't

sorry. sexism can go both ways. there are stupid comments (i.e. juvenile) and then there is TRUE sexism

and your vagina doesn't give YOU that job either

[VelmaD]

67. You did it again.

You decided what you think is "true" sexism for the rest of us. You've decided who is and isn't sexist.

I will never, as long as I live, understand why you think your perception of sexism should trump mine, particularly considering that I have to live with the consequences of sexism every day.

I've come to understand that you and I are probably never going to see eye to eye on this. But there is one thing I would like you to consider. Would you ever think that you as a white man have the right to tell black people what is and is not racist?

Sometime I think they should make a new DU rule where you and I are only allowed to talk to one another if we're in the Lounge. :)

[matcom]

71. no darling, it is YOU who has decided

NOT me. i expressed MY opinion and once again, am told that because I have a penis (and now apparently that I happen to be WHITE) that I can have NO opinion on the matter.

well, guess what?

I do and I can.

you know, i just asked Mrs Matcom how much "day to day" sexism she feels she encounters. she looked at me like I had 6 heads.

if you experience that much sexism, personally in your day to day life, I suggest you might make a "lifestyle change"

BTW, Mrs Matcom would KICK ASS over sexism so don't think she is some kind of "Stepford Wife"

nice BTW, throwing RACE into the mix. do you think for one fucking MINUTE that i am incapable of recognizing RACISM OR SEXISM because i have a dick and am a honkey??

P.L.E.A.S.E.

it IS possible is it not that there is a knee-jerk OVER reaction to "sexism" on DU?

:eyes:

[redqueen]

74. Deleted

[VelmaD]

79. Is it also not possible...

that there is a serious UNDER-reaction to sexism here (the same as there is in the larger society)? Or that there is a knee-jerk over-reaction to women calling men on their sexist bullshit here?

I never said that you cannot have an opinion matcom. Only that you seem bound and determined to proclaim your opinion as the truth as evidenced by your continuing assertion that YOU know what TRUE sexism is and that anyone else's perception that doesn't agree with yours is wrong.

And yes, I did think bringing in race was relevant and you didn't answer the question. Do you, as a white person, think you have a better handle on what is racist than a black person does? Do you, as a man, think you have a better handle on what is sexist than a woman does? They are simple questions. Because the way you have been coming across today it is fairly easy to draw the conclusion that you DO think you have a more true perception of sexism than women do.

[matcom]

82. extremists are extremists

i don't support PETA either yet i LOVE animals.

put it into context for a change

go rent some SNL skits from the 80's. you will laugh too (or you WOULD have)

[VelmaD]

97. I don't agree with you therefor I am an "extremist"

Nice one. :eyes:

Look, I had a lot of time to think about this thread on my commute home. You and I just seem to bring out the worst in each other on this topic and that's sad to me.

I'm pretty sure this is going ot be my last post in this thread (unless something amazing happens) and I really do want to return to my original point matcom, because it's the thing that I would most like you to think about. What is it that makes you think you have the right to decide what other people should consider important? Why do you think you should be the arbiter of what is and is not a "waste of bandwidth" or "time" or whatever? This isn't the first time you've couched your argument in those terms and it's the thing you do that sets me off and really gets our fights going. I don't know about everyone else but personally I find it quite insulting, your implication that I'm not capable of deciding for myself.

[matcom]

98. decide for yourself all you want

when you bring ME into it then i get to have another view

[trumad]

70. I'll say it again for the hard of hearing...

Girlie Man is code for Faggot. Come on now... put away your disdain for political correctness and admit that it does... It's mentioned above that we should pick our battles..OK..I think that small battles must be won to win the war. Don't you?

[matcom]

73. I'll ask it again...

you mean "Girlie Man" actually referrs to a "Cigarette?"

:eyes:

[TeacherCreature]

87. Trumad, some people's mommies were too controlling

and they never got over it. You migt as well ignore those folks, they will never change.

[matcom]

88. ah yes, Personal attack #2

i have a different opinion and YOU think I am a "sexist"

nice

get a fucking clue before you spew

[TeacherCreature]

92. What makes you think I was talking about you?

You might want to examine that reaction of yours.

[matcom]

94. if it wasn't ME then....

you might want to "reposition your response"

:eyes:

what grade do you teach again?

[zaj]

104. Girlie man is "code" for wimp or puzzy... not a homosexual reference...

If anyone has a claim to be pissed... it's women. Not homosexuals.

But neither really has much of an issue here.

[redqueen]

69. Yeah, and we laugh at Dave Chappelle calling people "Nigger"

Do we use that term to insult Powell or Rice?

Why not?

[matcom]

75. Uncle Tom has sure been thrown around here

as has "Pink Tutu" referring to Daschle.

where was the outrage?

didn't think so

[redqueen]

76. We live and learn

Or at least some of us do.

I remember the outrage over 'Uncle Tom'. I remember learning a thing or two from the thread I recall.

As for 'pink tutu'... well... are you surprised we few who realize the damage done don't bother?

Don't worry, from now on I will not let one slight go by without comment.

:evilgrin:

[noiretextatique]

78. not to mention all the terms used for bush

but as far as i know, none of us are gropenator of california.

[noiretextatique]

77. it was SATIRE on SNL, not a snide comment

about one's political oppenents (implying what it does) made by a governor. if he had referred to HIMSELF using the term, no one would be concerned. likewise if he had made the comment on SNL...which he did not.

[TeacherCreature]

85. No one said it was a federal crime

But it is sexist and homophobic. With all of the silly time wasting threads you post in the lounge I doubt you are truly worried about how we are spending our time.
What is the real issue here?

[matcom]

86. nice personal attack

the lounge IS for "wasting time"

nice though. you know NOTHING about me or my views, ideals, morals or contributions i have made here and elsewhere

so, you degrade yourself to a personal attack. you REALLY a Teacher?

hope you do better than that with your students

thank you though. it was really "enlightening"

[TeacherCreature]

90. Personal attack? I don't think so.

Perhaps I should have said ammusing and time wasting threads in the lounge. Claiming it is okay to waste time in the lounge but not here is kind of... er, silly.
If people want to talk about this why do you care? Why does this topic make you so angry?

[matcom]

93. i am not angry at all

you think i "waste my time in the lounge?"

you think that is the only thing i do?

uh huh.

wanna ask me how many people I and WE have educated via activism over the years?

wann ask what "I" have started via this site?

stick around for a while. there is MUCH more to MOI than silly Lounge Posts

but, NICE try though! :eyes:

when you have something of SUBSTANCE, feel free to "debate"

[TeacherCreature]

100. OIC

lol, so you always waste this much time on an issue you are not concerned about?

[matcom]

102. LOL

GREAT resume

[slinkerwink]

68. it's MOST definitely a SEXIST and HOMOPHOBIC epithet....

The words were in caps for those who still haven't comprehended how bigoted that remark was.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

81. The GOP is really pushing the Gay= Democratic angle.

Arnolds comment was part of a bigger picture, IMO....the GOP is really trying to run with this gay angle as a way to sour folks on the Democrats, and its being done in various ways. This is just one aspect of it.

[sandnsea]

84. Yes they are

You and me, a month from now, we'll know we tried to warn them. *sigh*

[Selwynn]

91. I won't cut slack - but I have 900 issues to worry about right now....

this one ranks about 837.

[TeacherCreature]

101. better get ye to a different thread huh?

why continue to wast time here?

[Selwynn]

107. Cause I'm entitled to my opinion, same as anyone else

Part of my opinion is that this issue shouldn't become a real critcal issue in the face of so many other extremely critical ones.

Of course, you are feel to hold a different view :D

[Piperay]

103. As a woman

I find it sexist, demeaning & offensive to women. :mad: