Response to this crazy religious nonsense needed ASAP

[genius]

I was at a church meeting the other day where someone threw out a comment about Jesus saying we needed to submit ourselves to the authorities. They used this to claim that we need to support the Bush and company. This was at a conscience objector meeting. The person leading the meeting agreed. My instant feeling was that this reasoning could be used to say that those who turned the Jews over to those running the death camp and that even the death camp officials who actually gassed the Jews were good Christians and doing what Jesus told them to do.

Anyone have a good Biblican response to this? I'll be seeing these individuals at various times during the next few days and I'd like something to counter that particular point.

[LoZoccolo]

1. In a democracy, we are the leaders.

And not promoting the right thing is a dereliction of our duty; it's irresponsible.

[mumon]

33. That's RIGHT!

Never, never let them get away with that.

I've been cut off (too late! ha ha!) after telling a religious right-wing call-in show that Bush was our employee, and that we were the source of all political power in the US.

[wryter2000]

2. Hard to refute

It's hard to refute that without knowing what they're claiming Jesus said. If you want to prolong the conversation with them, you could ask for a reference and see what they come up with. If it's "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," I usually use that as supporting separation of Church and State.

[genius]

6. Thank you.

This guy is a real Republican and he likes to twist everything against the Democrats. If that is all he has, I've got a good argument. I think I'll look at a condordance to make sure he doesn't have a more on point scripture for his claims.

[TWiley]

20. I believe that quote referred to paying taxes.

Many fundies that I know do not want to pay taxes at all. They have all sorts of odd little angles to work around taxes.

There is a scripture, maybe it is in Corinthians, that refers to respecting only those who deserve it. If the anti-christ were president, should we all blindly follow him? They would say no to that.

In that regard, It would be interesting to know if these same subservient souls blindly followed Bill Clinton, or would do the same for the "liberal agenda"

The best that I can think of is a bit abstract. It is in Galatians 5. 5:1 to around 5:21 lists out the "fruit" of flesh. 5:22 to the end refers to the "fruit of the spirit"

The abstract part is this: Given that there is a distinction, would gawd have us blindly obey the leaders described in 5:1 to 5:21, or would it be more appropriate to obey the leaders with the traits described in 5:22 and on.

You will notice that Satan is also called "the slanderer" and "the father of lies" From my chair, it is pretty easy to see who fits that description, and that would be ole bushie.

[specter]

3. Benjamin Franklin said it best

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

[Kinkistyle]

71. Aye. What was the point of the American Revolution again?

Why didn't we just pay our taxes like good little colonists and bow our heads to the King?

[bryant69]

4. "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

That was on Jefferson's seal.

I guess it depends on what one means by submission to authorities. Does that mean we refrain from criticizing them? In my mind that would be a betrayal of what America is all about. We are supposed to be critical of our leaders, particularly when they do foolish things. .

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[redqueen]

5. That's why the founding fathers didn't want religion mixing with politics

Religion has been used to manipulate people throughout recorded history.

[LittleApple81]

7. If that were true, then Jesus Christ would NOT HAVE EXISTED. He

is one of the best examples of not submitting to authorities.

[genius]

8. Good point. Thank you.

[Cleita]

9. Not biblical, but in parochial school we were taught that

although the Ten Commandments and other guides were our moral authority, there were times that we would have to reach inside of ourselves and consciences to do the right thing.

So the ultimate golden rule that trumped all the other rules was, "Let your conscience be your guide."

I have always found this a good rule to live by.

[oly]

10. Isn't free will a base assumption of almost all Christians. If so,

all people have the right to choose their fate. Authorities cannot take it away. Jesus can't either.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. I use the submit to authorities line when talking about

taxes and the need to pay them, but Jesus was also very much a reformist.

Here is the full passage they were taking Paul's quote from. Feel free to check out the rest of the verses on the page, most of which point out that God does not condone corruption, for which *co is surely a shinig light.

"Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who be are ordained by God. Therefore he who resists the authority, withstands the ordinance of God; and those who withstand will receive to themselves judgment. For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Do you desire to have no fear of the authority? Do that which is good, and you will have praise from the same, for he is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do that which is evil, be afraid, for he doesn't bear the sword in vain; for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him who does evil.


Therefore you need to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For this reason you also pay taxes, for they are ministers of God's service, attending continually on this very thing. Give therefore to everyone what you owe: taxes to whom taxes are due; customs to whom customs; respect to whom respect; honor to whom honor."

(Romans 13:1-7)

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[genius]

23. So this guy was quoting Paul and pretending it was Jesus.

Thank you. I might also be able to use this to point out the part about "...there is no authority except from God..." to point out that God did not ordain Bush.

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. May not have realized it was Paul who wrote it, but definitely

point out that God does not put up with corruption.

[jokerman93]

28. Unfortunately this has bigger problems

This seems like a perfect rational for dumping the constitution and installing a theocratic emperor.

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Only if you are a fundy

Rational (and esp liberal) Christians are capable of knowing where the line is between church and state, and are not offended by the idea of not living in a theocracy. :)

[knitter4democracy]

48. That passage is so often misquoted

Poor St. Paul. He's always misquoted and used for whatever people want to force others into.

Think of the times St. Paul is talking about. It was illegal to be a Christian, and the authorities were murdering Christians left and right (not to mention a whole lot of other people too). St. Paul basically was telling everyone to lie low, to not give those in power a reason to kill them. He was reminding them that we are to be as Christ-like as possible and not use our faith as a means to hurt others or ourselves.

[GreenPartyVoter]

53. Paul is not my fave. Mind you he has a lot of good to say, but

there is plenty that he says that gets my dander up. Also, going to a fundagelical church really underscores how that sect is more Paulist than Christian in spirit and in doctrine.

[wuushew]

12. Found this

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the King, as supreme; or unto governors…," Peter taught (I Pet. 2: 13, 14). Those who resist and disobey civil government are resisting God (Rom. 13: 2). The exception would be when government and God's word conflict (Acts 5: 29). Not only is obedience to government taught, but also honor is due. Observe Peter's teaching, "Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the King" (I Pet. 2: 17).

[xchrom]

13. you! must! conform!

i don't recall anywhere jesus said to submit to authorities.
other than give ceasar his due.
christ was the perfect example of a non-conformist.

[Lerkfish]

21. In Fact, Jesus didn't say it, Paul did...

...and that is much that is wrong with the religious right claiming to be "christians", when none of their actions reflect Christ's teachings.

What they are, instead, are Paulists...those who follow the letters of the Apostle Paul OVER the teachings of christ. RWingers prefer the letters of Paul, ignoring their anachronistic relevance to present times because they avocate a more repressive reduction in civil liberties and more proactive adherence to conformity.

[TeacherCreature]

43. Paul was not all bad

And I do believe they are quoting Peter when they talk about submission. However you are right, people love to ignore the words of Christ himself.

But here is some Paul that I think is one of the most beautiful examples of Christian ideals.
*************************************************

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.<3> Do not be conceited.
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"<4> says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."<5> 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[Lerkfish]

52. Agreed. I didn't mean to dis Paul, however...

...the fundies rarely take his excellent teachings to heart and instead fixate on the anachronistic ones (like its shameful for a woman to cut her hair, etc.) and cherry pick those to support their existing prejudices. If they only followed christ's teachings, they'd be better off.

Actually, they'd be better to read the entire bible in context and realize its a melange of meaning on different levels and that interpreting it piecemeal is an injustice to it.

[TeacherCreature]

59. okay, I agree

We are on the same page. I get upset sometimes at what I think is sloppy liberal theology which makes Paul a villian and doesn't consider what he got right and the true beauty of some of his writings.
You are right about reading the bible in context. :hi:

[Kipepeo]

67. those are some good verses

Do not repay evil for evil....wow. I wonder if Bush read that in his Bible Studies.

This doesn't get at what you're looking for exactly, but I think it describes Bush and the loudest of the fundies pretty squarely:

When you pray, do not be as those who pretend to be someone they are not. They love to stand and pray in the places of worship or in the streets so people can see them. For sure, I tell you, they have all the reward they are going to get. When you pray, go into a room by yourself. After you have shut the door, pray to your Father Who is in secret. Then your Father Who sees in secret will reward you. When you pray, do not say the same thing over and over again making long prayers like the people who do not know God. They think they are heard because their prayers are long. Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. (Matthew 6: 5-8)

[Connie_Corleone]

14. Jesus Didn't say that

Paul said it in Romans, I think Chapter 13 or 14. According to Paul, we are to submit to the authorities because God placed them there.

[MichiganVote]

17. "Thou shall not kill"

[realisticphish]

47. actually

the ten commandments aren't christian law, Christ's death made the whole old testament moot. But I seem to be the only christian who knows this, so I might as well argue with fundies in their language


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Kaysera]

15. We must obey God rather than man ...

... when there is a conflict between the will of God and the will of man.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[methinks2]

16. You could start with the ten commandments.

Thou shall not kill and thou shall not steal come to mind. Also have them read Matthew chapters 5 and 7. Chapter 7 covers not judging others. Chapter 5 states that to simply be angry with your neighbor is enough to keep you out of heaven. If you can't be angry with someone, surely you can't shoot them or drop bombs on them.
Here's another one for you. A man or woman is judged by their actions, if a man says I am a Christian, but then commits murder and does not repent, he is not a christian.
How about, I am not a blue car, even if I say I am, I'm still just a human. Just because Bush and buddies say they are family value christians, doesn't mean that they are. Hitler said he was a christian, he obviously was not.
Family values. If you kill other peoples children, born and/or unborn, then you are not pro-life or pro-family. (as in when he started bombing civilian areas he killed families and children) Thou shall not kill was a commandment not a suggestion.
Hope this helps.

[Lerkfish]

18. If that were true...

There'd be no Christian church at all. The early church was a practitioner of civil disobedience to authority.


however, the passage most often referred to is:

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

the part that is overlooked is: Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil

looking the other way with Bushco would be covering up evil.

[gratuitous]

19. It was Paul, not Jesus

Someone else referenced Romans 13, which is the "submit yourself to the authorities" passage that the folks at your meeting are probably thinking of.

But don't assume; find out what scripture they're talking about, but also find out how they relate the scripture. Is it the Absolute, Infallible, Word of God? Is it authoritative, but not absolute? Is it to be taken in context, and used in combination with other factors*?

People who resort to scriptural arguments like this are seeking to limit and shut down discussion: God said it, I believe it, that settles it (you heretic). By pinning down some of the particulars outlined above, you reopen the discussion and put the person's argument into a perspective that the majority of folks at your meeting may not agree with. Their argument usually falls apart, but you have to ask the questions in order to give it the nudge it needs.

*Those factors include, but are not limited to personal experience, the review and discussion of the congregation or gathering, historical interpretation, and learned commentary.

[sandnsea]

22. Then stop complaining about abortion

The authorities have decided it's okay.

I don't know what that Bible verse means, but it can't possibly mean to put your brain in the freezer and leave it there. I keep thinking the word "submit" means something different than what we've been led to believe. When taking the Bible as a whole, it can't possibly mean we blindly do what our leaders tell us or that women blindly do what men tell them. That's in direct conflict with Jesus' quote, "Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division! From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided: father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother..." If children were submitting and women were submitting, there'd be no divided houses at all because nobody would have a thought in their head except the "man of the house".

[CaTeacher]

26. The bible has to be taken in context of what was going on

at the time and what was actually being referred to in the quote. It is ridiculous to pull pieces of scripture out of context, without the appropriate frame of reference--and then apply them to present circumstances.

The only useful way to read the bible is expository readings, where the historical context is taken into account and whole chapters or books are considered--not just a few words pulled out.

I would find a new church.

[sandnsea]

42. I quit church, problem solved

I'll never go back. It's all too stupid.

[TeacherCreature]

44. I'm sorry you went to a stupid church

Mine is decidedly unstupid. :)

[sandnsea]

51. Not just one

Every one I ever went to. Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, non-denominational; all stupid. They know, others don't know, judgmental, self-righteous, petty, all of them. Then mix in the deaths caused by religion, including the mess we've got now, no thanks. I've had my fill.

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. Too bad you didn't find the Universalist Church :^)

I hear they are great, and rather open-minded.

[sandnsea]

56. I've thought about that

I was invited recently. I live in a tiny town so finding these things isn't always easy. It does sound really good. I'm just so tired of anything related to religion right now. I'm just not seeing anything good come of any of it. :(

[GreenPartyVoter]

57. Definitely check them out. I hear the minister in the church in our town

is actually a secular humanist. ;)

You can find out more about the UU church at their homepage, which I've listed here:

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm#denom

[sandnsea]

58. Thanks

Like I said, I have and will think about it. Right now I'm tired of all things religion, and I admit, alot of other things as well. These are trying times and I'm sure no saint. :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

60. Any time. And I know what you mean. I am a liberal person

politically and spiritually but married into a very conservative evangelical family of Repubs. FIL is a minister and everything. ANd I attend the family denomination despite the fact that it sin't quite my cup o tea.

BUT, despite my disagreements with them I have learned to love these people and the members of my congregation, which is good because I was in danger of becoming as intolerant as I claimed the RWers to be. *lol*

Still, they are SO wrong on so many issues, it does drive me to distraction. :P

[sandnsea]

61. As a recovering mom

(my youngest is 18, lol), I'd just like to have one conversation with a grown-up woman that doesn't include Jesus. My son's best friend's mom literally threw up 3 times on the way to church because she was so sick, but still insisted everybody go. That's how nutso these people can be in my little town. They're nice in every other way, well, some are nutty in other ways too; but when it comes to Jesus, oh man. I just need a break!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

62. My small fry are 4 and 6, and the reason why we "have" to go to hubby's

church of choice. He still functions spiritually from that place of fear..eternal condemnation and all that nonsense.

If it weren't for the fact that his denom lets women wear pants and make-up, and even preach, or the fact that they are really big on helping the needy, I would have put my foot down and said no way.

But, they are tolerable enough, and as I said I do love the people if not their views on everything, I feel ok taking them there. But in the end I am praying that what they are learning at home sticks with them more.

[sandnsea]

63. That's pretty good

"Churched" people are different from place to place, I think. In the last little town we lived in, nobody cared. That was in Montana, supposedly fundieland. My kids went to church with all their different friends, nobody tried to convert them or us or anything else. Here on the Oregon coast, supposedly the land of liberals, totally different. Really gives me a headache. The last time I went to church, Sunday school actually, the preacher was agreeing with a man that all 3 of his daughters were jezebels and that no man would ever want them because of their sinful ways. This supposedly Christian father was so busy judging them that he'd obviously forgotten how to love them. I completely lost it, right in the middle of class! But I know there are places and churches that aren't so obnoxious, I just don't happen to live there right now!

[vetwife]

30. There are several

The Bush KJV actually says...Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar..meaning government and that which is God..God's. Now that is the first mention of separation of church and state backed up by the bible.

There is also Woe unto ye hypocrites, pharasees and publicans.
A form of godliness and deny the power therein.
Key word being form..Not real.

There is also mention to pray for yourleaders..Not just those in power. Not just republicans.

There was also an instance where the people prayed for a King and God said you don't need a King...They kept praying and they got one. He was brutal and oppressed the people. OF course this is old testament and not of this time.

The other is Jesus said Put your trust in no man. NO MAN and that includes Bush.

Jesus also said Take no thought of tomorrow. What you shall eat or drink.
Well that kills the republican's idea of 401 and savings and putting up your treasures. It is wrong to put so much into your own bank account and not depnding on faith.

Throw some of this out and see what he says.

Also the biggest to me is Forgive 70 tmes 7 in one day.
Do no harm to any man
Bless those who use you
Forgive your enemies
Blessed are the peacemakers nto blessed are the bombmakers

They can't answer this...I know I throw it out here all the time.

[JNelson6563]

25. Put Caeser over God??

No man can serve two masters.

Julie-the heathen

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's

:)

[vetwife]

32. Hey Green Party Voter...We know this don't we ..LOL

[TrogL]

29. Jesus said no such thing

Have them quote chapter and verse.

[TexasSissy]

31. You can find something in the Bible to support just about anything.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's (talking about taxes)....

Thou shalt not kill....(but we know there are exceptions, don't we?)

Turn the other cheek.

A tisket a tasket....oh, wait, that's something else.

[CBHagman]

35. Two words: DIETRICH BONHOEFFER.

He was the Lutheran pastor and theologian whom the Nazis attempted to silence. Bonhoeffer was a courier for the resistance and was connected to the group that attempted to assassinate Hitler (Bonhoeffer was picked up well before that attempt took place). Ask them if Bonhoeffer should have submitted himself to the legal authorities in that case.

Interestingly, Corrie ten Boom's "The Hiding Place" deals with this issue somewhat, at least peripherally. Ten Boom and her family, all devout Christians, protected and hid Jewish refugees in their home in Haarlem, Holland. They were found out and most of the family wound up in concentration camps, where some of them died. Their Jewish friends, thank God, escaped.

Ask them if Corrie ten Boom should have submitted to local authorities in that case.

[baldguy]

36. Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's.

We are Caesar. That means we need to keep ourselves informed, require our elected representitives to be accountable, and if they won't do that - ELECT SOME ONE ELSE!

[Mountainman]

37. My kinddom is not of this earth.

If I have it right, Jesus did not preach against the authorities nor did he preach in favor of them. When they tried to trick him, he said that you should give to Ceaser that which is Ceaser's and to God that which is God's. I think your person is trying to trick you in a similar way.

[patcox2]

38. Forget responding to the scripture, go after the logic of his conclusion

You don't need to refute the scripture he quotes. Ridiculous Pauline garbage that it is, you cannot refute it. It was written at a time when the early church was trying to avoid being perceived as a threat to the Roman government, and was motivated by the same goal as the revisionist telling of the passion which put the blame on the jews. Paul was just sucking up to the Roman authorities as he spread christianity around the Roman provinces. But as I say, its futile to get into that kind of a discussion with someone who beleives the bible is the unerring word of god.

But you can attack his logic and his conclusion. The scripture says that you must submit to authority, which, in todays context, means you should submit to the lawful authority of our elected leaders. Fine, we all do that, or we'd be in jail. But its just ridiculous to say that this means you have to support the re-election of an elected leader. By this logic, democracy itself goes against the bible. By this logic, Bush has to be king for life, because we wouldn't be "submitting to his authority" if we vote against him. Thats just silly.

Remember the context, back then it was personal, the ruler (for life) was the law, so you had to submit to the ruler's authority. But today its not about the man, its about the office. In today's context, this scripture simply means that you have to submit to civil law. You should say that this scripture really just says you must obey the laws, and you do, since its not against the law to vote against Bush or campaign against him.

The fact is, Bush's authority ends at the end of his term unless he is re-elected, and in any event its not within his lawful authority to order us to vote for him or support him, and therefore it does not go against Paul's scripture to vote him out of office.

[left is right]

39. a few points about the Biblical concept of submission

First, it cannot be coerced, forced, begged or pleaded for. It is strictly a voluntary action. In fact those words, are not addressed to the leaders of a government, the leaders of a church or even husbands. When I teach passages with this concept, I have husbands and elders cover their ears. I use this as a symbolic technique to show them they have no role to play in another person's submission.
Second, the passages that use the word submission always include some reference as "is fitting unto the Lord." Therefore, submitting to anything that brings disgrace upon the Lord is sin.
Third, we cannot read 21st century opinions/biases back onto the first century reality. Christianity was a new religion; it stood in sharp contrast to the emperor worship/pagan deities that was common for the time period. Ceasar and the high priests of the cult/occult religions had a vested interest in finding something that would give reason to oppress this new religion. Paul's goal was to give them (the Ceasars and high priests) nothing to criticize so Christians were instructed to be the best citizens in the empire. They were to pay their taxes on time, give an honest day work for the pay, not grumble, and go the extra mile--quite literally. Their would be rewards in Heaven but their was an immediate reward here on earth--Christians would be less likely to suffer the abuse that a government could heap upon groups they didn't like.

[TeacherCreature]

40. The text they are refering to is probably

Peter's words to submit to all authority. He was talking about pacifism not to agreeing to go kill other people. He was saying do what is right no matter how you are mistreated. He was saying be good citizens. No one can seriously think Jesus meant anyone to kill for profit. That is a perversion of the word of God.

[noonwitch]

41. Jesus didn't say it, Paul did

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Jesus, of course, told us to render unto ceasar what is ceasar's, but he was making a joke at the expense of the Pharisees. I'll bet the roman soldiers thought it was funny. I certainly do. I think a lot of what Jesus said is funny, and is intentionally so.

[cap]

45. Moses didn't obey the Pharoh

he said "let my people go".

[cap]

46. I hope he cheerfully submitted himself to Bill Clinton

and doesn't have a problem submiting himself to the future President, John Kerry. :)

[genius]

65. I hope Kerry is President next year.

If we get Bush out and Kerry in, it would be great to repeat his comment back to him next year.

[bobbieinok]

49. the fundamentalist, evangelical, pentecostal churches preach

this a lot. The idea seems to be the God has chosen the country's leader and good christians must submit (from Romans).

So I ask, in other words the American Revolution was against the will of God????

And, all those people, churches, etc screaming about Clinton were going against the will of God????? Have you repented yet??

Within this context, rebellion against(aka disagreement ?? with) parents, teachers, bosses, any authority is un-Christian.

Where I've heard it, it's clearly a reaction against the 'destruction of all christian civlization' that occured in the 60s

[drdigi420]

50. who cares what some old dead guy thinks?

[leesa]

54. Remind them of their submission to Clinton

This is old GOP Christo-fascist manipulation

[Astarho]

64. Jesus submitted (surrendered) himself to the authorities

and that worked out fine didn't it?

...and into Sam Zittle's crucifixion machine!

[Must_B_Free]

66. sure

just like you can "Petition the Lord with Prayer"

YOU CAN NOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER.

TO SUBMIT TO AUTHORITY IS ANTICHRISTIAN. Each Christian is supposed to uphold his own view of the word. That is the essence of self determination and the primary responsibility of a Christian.

[drmom]

68. One of the reasons I'm an atheist is that I figured out long ago...

...that religion has mainly been propagated as a way to control the masses. Besides making laws to discourage uprising, religion has always been used as a key strategy to keeping people ‘in their place’. By constantly telling them that “the meek shall inherit the earth”, “blessed are the poor in spirit”, “blessed are the meek”, etc., people are convinced that if they just behave on earth, they will get their reward after death. Clearly, there has to be other benefits of faith, just being subservient would not be enough to keep people interested....so you give them the biggest reward of all, the answer to the biggest need of mankind...the belief in life after death. And not just an ordinary life, but a really, really cool one. Sure, there is a lot more to it, but I don’t think that even religious people can deny that faith is often exploited for political gain.

[JSJ]

69. never submit to authority, ever... and if you can't outrun it, or...

...knock it out cold, and it gets you in 'custody',then keep in reserve that part of yourself that won't or can't submit.

[genius]

70. Thank you everyone.

All your ideas were great.